How the 797 Could Kill Southwest 

they aren't the same company they used to be :(

yeah... only exist in people minds haha

Given the endless screw-ups that a new Boeing plane entails, its safe to assume its probably going to be 15-20 years till a 797 actually carries a passenger

It exists in paper maybe with different name all of those NMA, 797 is just our hallucination i think.

That is because they do not know what to call the aircraft after the 797

Yeah, leased from Braniff i think.

Thank you. I made this point one time to someone and they swore up and down I was wrong. I know because I flew on it from Houston-LAX with a stop in San Antonio. I know my planes very welll.

It also inherited AirTran's (nee, ValuJet) fleet of 717 and 737's. Leasing the 88 717's to Delta, it kept the 52 737-700's to integrate into it's own fleet. No 717 flew in Southwest colors

As a kid I rode in a 727 Southwest.

@@danielclooney6248 The 727 was long out of service with Southwest by they time they began servicing LAX. If you flew from HOU to LAX on southwest, both aircraft were 100% 737 variants.

I bet that Southwest's looking at Airbus might have been a little bit more than bluffing and if Boeing doesnt get their act together, they will. They are not ready to make that leap yet though

@@jameskeefe1761 never know. Covid hit during the max groundings so keeping some planes in storage worked out anyways.

At least Airbus planes can actually, ya know, fly.

Here we are 3 months later and after everything that happened and that I have worked through I can confirm southwest is not a smart company and can't plan ahead very well at all

@@danlewellyn6734 , into trees, oceans, …..

Here’s where you’re wrong : Boeing absolutely will move forward with the 797, regardless of how Southwest feel about it. However, I definitely don’t think they’ll discontinue the 737 program and replace it with the 797 entirely, due to airlines like that of Southwest.

The 97 is a new version of the 57. And it's about a decade away.

@@grahamstevenson1740 that doesn't necessarily mean they won't announce it was too early, though!

@@SimonButler Announcements mean nothing. We're wised up to them now !

@@grahamstevenson1740 I didn’t say the programme wasn’t stalled... wtf are you talking about? 😂 I simply stated what I believe will happen once the program launches... what drugs have you been taking?

Efficiency gains are achieved by larger wings and higher bypass rate engines, both heavier. It’s the smaller variant which take harder hit, and this is not limited to 737MAX - reengine programs from A320NEO to 777X all suffer from similar phenomenon. Worsestill, 73G had structures optimised for its size. 7M7 is a simple shrink. Given few actually interested in 7M7 that saves cost for Boeing, though.

not 1 of, but Boeings largest customer by far!

@@azhardav Not true. United buys more aircraft. Southwest buys the most 737s though.

@@txjeb yes, you are correct.

I was thinking the same thing...especially if Southwest is talking seriously about switching to Airbus. Boeing would be stupid to just say oh well see yah.

Sh!t! What have you got planned???

The 797 is a Boeing pipe dream. They have enough problems with current production aircraft to even think about a new clean sheet design. I don't think Southwest has anything to worry about.

The way everything is going right now, we’ll be lucky if the earth still exists in a decade.

@@KN-ko8ez true the fact of the matter is that did you accepted and open your heart to the calling of Almighty God to accept Jesus Christ as Savior of our sins and Lord of our life? Prayers you will do it in Revelation 3:20

@@whtfsh765 Agree. Southwest will be fine.

Exactly. The seller is at the mercy of the buyer and not the other way around. Southwest isn't some small airline anymore and draws so much water Boeing will bend over backwards for their business

Boeing isn't based in Seattle any more. Corporate HQ is now in Virginia.

Yes of course boeing would provide this but it would be poorly optimised like the Max-7 and similarly offer poorer fuel burn per seat. If SW could start over, they would surely go Airbus narrowbody as it's a far better product right now - however with nearly 800 737's , and around 9000 pilots exclusively qualified for the type that's a painful and expensive transition.

Much more likely to see the 787-3 before the 797.

Big manufacturers like Boeing have separate VPs running each program independently such that problems in one program don’t necessarily effect other programs. I suspect the delays in the 797 have their own separate reasons unrelated to the Max or 777X problems. And no, I don’t believe there’s a problem with “the culture at Boeing.”

@max Odom I partially agree I don’t think the 777x delays will really affect a 797 but the 737 max affected everything. That was Boeing main source of revenue and it deeply hurt the company. The max issues became Boeing’s top priority and prevented any real progress on the 797. But now that the max is back on track Boeing can focus on the 777x and more importantly the 797

@@markodom3841 ..one of those "reasons" is that they are still not settled on the interior configuration of either a single or dual aisle cabin. I still feel t they made a big mistake cancelling early development of what was to be the 757's successor back in 2011. They could actually be ahead of the game in the mid market arena had they continued to pursue it and based it off the 787''s composite technology. The Max with it's issues (not just MCAS) has set them back years and sullied their reputation. The situation also hasn't been helped by QA matters at the South Carolina 787 facility which they will be moving all 767 assembly to.

@@bcshelby4926 I’m suspicious of the South Carolina problems. In many industries where labor unions are in decline and more work is done in open shop states, a number of union workers are forced to follow the work to non-union plants. It does happen often where a former union worker, in quiet protest to open shop employers (Boeing in SC), will leave a small non-lethal (in some industries lethal) calling card behind in a work area to embarrass their boss, often having access after final inspections have taken place. I believe much of the negative publicity against the 787 since it’s inception has been driven (and perhaps caused) by pro-union activists, mad that the 787 is being built in SC, an open shop state where wages are lower. See: “Broken Dreams” by Al Jazirra and see if it doesn’t look fishy. Also, when the 787 was announced and Airbus quickly saw its point to point capability as a threat to the A380 and 340 (which has now been fully realized), industrial espionage being as widespread as it is, it’s not hard to imagine Airbus participating in promoting negative publicity of Boeing (maybe even supporting anti-Boeing bloggers). Why not, considering the stakes with only 2 big plane builders left in a multi-billion dollar industry, the temptation to go for a knock out blow to your sole competitor through propaganda is too great, especially for a company willing to bribe dozens of airlines worldwide to try to outsell Boeing. To not consider these possibilities is naive.

737s, not 737's. Apostrophe is for possession. 🙂

MojaveDan is exactly correct. This RU-vidr does not know what he is talking about.

@@denniscampbell3213 I see 2 sorta contradictory statements here.

Southwest will probably move to the A220.

@@Locutus u must have fun at parties

In fairness, Southwest has had a good number of accidents ranging from minor-to-moderate in severity, with two fatalities in their books. They have a fantastic safety record, but have still had several fairly notable incidents..

@@user-ot4wm2fh8g True, but considering the high cycle and short turn around times as compared to other majors and just two fatalities over a 50 year period Southwest’s safety record is impressive. Plus other majors have had their own incidences and major accidents.

My guess is Boeing will figure out a way to keep one of their best customers happy and buying lots of Boeing jets long into the future.

Exactly - They can order and place 797's on routes with high load factors and free up aircraft for more point to point flights that they may start up. Also, remember SWA is going international and cab use the 797 for those flights as they are developed and mature while continuing to replace worn out 737's with new 737 variants

@@user-ot4wm2fh8g One of those fatalities was pilot error, but the findings cleared Southwest in the other. They were at or above safety standards and it was an undiagnosed issue on a widely operated engine. Add to that the freak chances of it striking the exact part of the cowling that caused the domino effect of events that led to the broken window. Not all accidents are an indicator of a poor safety culture, some are just accidents. The feds agreed and I trust them considering how safe American airways are.

Yah

Made in very small numbers though.

@@Aliquis.frigus i think it was only around 60

@@Aliquis.frigus SAS was at one point the biggest operator. They are all retired now, and SAS is experiencing a gap in their narrow body fleet. As they are replacing all 737NGs with 320 Neos, they are currently looking at option for an replacement. Most likely the a220. I feel as the 737 is not the versatile family it once was...

The 737-600 and A318 alike got discontinued earlier than the other variants of the 737NG and A320CEO family.

Thanks ◡̈

@@cobyexplanes coby man your explanation on this video was far fetched dude. The 797 isn’t even out yet so why even make a video about it.

Yes but I think Boeing won’t want to do that given airbus would have a massive head start with their a220. Also like coby stated, developing a clean sheet airplane is massively expensive today and would suck up most of Boeing’s resources.

@@nathanwaldron4259 Actually not much. The fuseleage would be near identical, only new wings/engine required. Systems/cockpit would remain the same.

@w8stral I completely disagree the 737 max is definitely the last 737. Boeing has squeezed as much as they can out of the 50 year old airframe. I’m not saying the max is a bad plane, I love it and wouldn’t hesitate to fly on it. The 797 will use tech from the 787. You are right about new engines and wings, but they will use lots of composites, the fuselage will likely be slightly wider. Landing gear need to be taller and engines will be even bigger. Hopefully they will overpower the plane like the 757 was so the 797 can take off from very short runways. The 737 was a great plane and Boeing had no choice but to build the max but they cannot possibly squeeze anymore performance out of the 737.

@@nathanwaldron4259 Appears you can't read... or think about the SUBJECT of the video... I suggest actually WATCHING and LISTENING to the video next time... before replying

I’m not sure I understand. And damn why u get so heated. I don’t really have an opinion on what the 797 will mean for southwest. But all I’m saying is that the 797 will be a completely new aircraft, even if similarly sized to the 737.

That was always a negotiation ploy. Airbus never even submitted a formal proposal for the 220. They knew the the game.

@Harry Old I doubt they made themselves "very vulnerable".

Southwest wouldn't change to Airbus, it was a bully statement to Boeing because the entire infrastructure for over 40 years has been set up on the Boeing 737. Changing their facilities and maintenance set up to accommodate Airbus would cost more than the entire fleet of a new model aircraft.

@@c123bthunderpig It's true they haven't developed the infrastructure to support multiple fleet types, unlike DL, UA, AA. SW can't handle the complexity the way they can. Their operating model is sound but they have never been good at managing complexity.

@@c123bthunderpig no way does retraining pilots and maintenance staff cost that much.

That is exactly my view, though I think that a costly change at the right time could be a crucial gain at the long run.

Was... they dont fly them anymore sadly

Ex-plane-ations😂😂😂😂

oop

Oppsies 😬

It was a pointer in this case! (I would never admit it, but I can't keep those two symbols straight either- good thing I'm a pilot and not an engineer!)

Depends how you look at it. Yes, global population will rise, but the majority of that is going to be in big cities in Asia and Africa. That doesn’t make much difference to a US domestic carrier… So whilst there will be more people in 2040, it’s not going to be that much in places like the states. 2040 is now only 19 years away.. And it’s going to be even less noticeable in the smaller towns and cities that Southwest it trying to focus on filling the seats for. If they’re trying to fill a 140 seat 737-700 now, they’re not going to exactly be readily filling up a 180-90 seat aircraft in 20 years time from these small towns/cities. And that’s their main problem, their model directly focuses on thin routes yet the future of Boeing seems to be moving away from narrowbodies.. If they were flying in Bangladesh/India/Nigeria etc. then they wouldn’t have this struggle with projected population growth, but the rural US? well…

757 beautiful

I heard one of the advantages that Airbus has is the similarity in cockpit experiences across the line, reducing the need for retraining, Airbus even tries to reduce maintenance overhead by making the different models similar to maintain. People talk about the efficiencies of an all 737 fleet, but Airbus can really kind of do that across its different types. That can be really compelling. So some have said Boeing should do the same, fly by wire replacements for 737, 757

Problem is, Boeing destroyed the tooling and severed the supply chain needed for 757 production, after the type fell out of favor in the post 9/11 era. The 737 Max-10 is meant to fulfill the 757's role as a high capacity narrowbody for transcontinental and transatlantic routes, but do it cheaper. Boeing does not see the market for a purpose built long range narrowbody, despite the rise of A321NEO variants with enhanced range. Boeing is as foolish about the small to medium market as Airbus was with the hub and spoke market twenty years ago.

@@jameskeefe1761 Boeing should invest in an FBW type for the small to medium type market, but after the disaster of MCAS in the 737 Max, they'll be walking a fine line with any new control technology unless they are upfront about it with pilots and have multiple redundant backups for data inputs. Boeing isn't advanced enough with control tech to market to many emerging markets, they've lagged behind Airbus since before Airbus was even Airbus.

lol

It's a shame they moved from Newark, NJ to LaGuardia, NY... we miss them!!!

Thank you. I was about to say the same thing - although I think they may have retired them as they are no longer listed on their fleet listings. I was a flight attendant with WJ from early days and flew the -600 many times. Nice plane. All the NG were great compared to the -200 that WJ started with - those planes were LOUD and quirky....but fun to fly on though. Cheers.

I was gonna say, makes me wonder if this guy actually knows what he is talking about...

@@swisscake1591 I also think that he is quite uninformed regarding this topic…

I see your point, it’s true that a 797 should rather be a replacement for the 757 and the smaller 767 variants. Maybe if Boeing decides to built a shortened variant, maybe similar to the planned 757-100, they could offer a 150 seater, but keeping in mind what we learned about shortened aircraft it‘s even more speculative than the 797 already is

I think it was stupid of Boeing to not purchase Embraer. I’m just curious as to why Embraer is wanting to go to turbo prop RJ’s. I know they have their benefits, but I can’t imagine that catching on.

Indeed it would have! Except, it would be financial headache for SWA

The A220 is such a nice plane to fly on compared to a clapped out 737.

That'd be cursed tbh

Doesn't that flight take about as long as just driving?

4 1/2 hrs vs. 45 mins... not quite

I’d imagine not, the US air market isn’t supposed to grow *that* much in the future. Unless SW expands internationally

^what he said. Yes the American aviation market is still likely to grow, the areas we're likely to see the greatest growth in aviation demand is gonna be Asia/India/Latin America. The gain's in the American market will be marginal in comparison

But, reducing boarding time is important to SW. Wouldn’t a twin aisle jet be the ideal 737/757 replacement?

No definitely not. A duel aisle replacement for the 737 makes no sense. The smallest size for a wide body that makes any sense is the size of the 767. Also the 787 is not that much bigger than the larger 767’s

@@bluebox2000 If you are so worried about load times, use the back door. It is frankly stupid that ALL airlines do not already do this. Oh boo hoo, people have to climb some stairs...

The 757 was the hot rod of airplanes, Hugh thrust to weight ratio.

Sure do ◡̈

Thanks :)

Depends on who you ask and when you ask. However, according to Boeing, development of the 797 is their lowest priority, behind fixing the 737 Max's well deserved bad reputation and perfecting the 777X.

Thanks!

@Explosive Gaming It is, according to this wikipedia article... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_737_Next_Generation

@Explosive Gaming The -600 is the smallest NG model. It is the replacement for the "classic" 737-500 which uses the same fuselage. Without looking it up to verify, I think SAS and Brathens SAFE used them. -300 = -700 -500 = -600 The Classics were named in order of the date they were developed (-300: 1984, -400: 1988, -500: 1990), while the NGs were named in order of size since they were all planned all at the same time when they made the NG line. For the last couple days I've been seriously considering starting an aviation channel and starting with an "Ultimate 737 spotters guide". Is that something you think people would want to watch? I live in Seattle and also have tons of photos of Boeing factory airliners (some taken from the air while working as a flight instructor out of Boeing Field). Without it being bragging, I can honestly say that no one knows more about Boeings than I do because I have been an enthusiast since 1990. I've also helped assemble actual 747-400 center wing sections at the Boeing factory- so I will make videos on what it is like to build them and how the factory works too. I'm just not sure how anyone will know to look for my channel and watch my videos...

That doesn't make sense, but i believe you...

@@jeebus6263 it does, it has like 7 thousand and all the others have like 6 thousand range

lol

@@cobyexplanes They did fly the 727. the correct statement was that they currently only fly the 737 familiy and have for most of their existence.

I hope not...which is to say, not unless they intend to swap out the entire fleet. A mix of aircraft would ruin Southwest in the long term. In air travel, efficiency wins the day, and they are highly efficient.

Airbus.

What do you mean by “you forget”? Did you not watch the video? That was literally Coby’s main point!

It is flying again. But they've gotten all they can out of the airframe. There is no more room (literally) to make any more improvements.

I think it's more likely whatever plane comes after the 797 will address that market

It's also worthwhile remembering the A320neo (and whatever its replacement ends up known as) and the 737 MAX are functionally a duopoly, hence especially if Airbus do a clean sheet A320 replacement there will be even larger pressure for Boeing to do a clean sheet 737 replacement. To not do it would be to hand the market to an even larger degree to Airbus. In comparison, the A220 has competition from the E2-and while Boeing isn't the one profiting from it, it does limit Airbus's gains.

When that gets near Boeing and Airbus will be planning for a two-model fleet with as much commonality among parts as is possible (think 757/767 with the identical cockpits, but on a larger scale) to get their business.

@@reedermh True, you're saying what I've wondered about! Once you get licensed for a commercial bi-reactor jet plane, why/what can there not be a commonality from the E2-170/ A220 & up to the 777/ A350????

Dave? You mean Herb.

@@kenheidenberger850 Yes, the Wild Turkey drinking Herb - will never forget!

*Herb.*

That would explain all the maintenance delays I’ve seen as a passenger.

This right here. The Max safety disaster is final proof that Boeing has lost the plot. Since SW has so much time they might as well switch to Airbus so the cost can be spread out.

I have been such a huge Boeing fan since I was a kid. Let’s just say the last 5 years, I’ve been sickened by the corporate mentality of putting profit over safety (apparently they didn’t think through to the final result: finding that they knew all along about the MCAS and blamed pilots, etc. until their emails came out). Most of the places I fly are on 737-800, and 737-8MAX as well as the A320 and A321. Let’s just say that I’ve picked only Airbus since the MAX scandal. All of the other things I agree with: the KC-46 tanker issues, and the 777x program so far behind.

@@JRSoubasse bloomberg actually did a great spot about it: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-EESYomdoeCs.html

A220s are much larger than Q400s. E175s more likely.

But that would also kill their differential and make Southwest essentially follow the model of the Big 3 legacy carriers, only a little more standardized. I don't think they'd want to kill their goose that lays golden eggs by voluntarily going to face competition on the Big 3's own turf. On the other hand, the Big 3 "Express" and "Eagle" subsidiaries already compete with Southwest in smaller markets, with the difference (for now) that to them they're just hub feeders, while they're Southwest's lifeline. Doing what you suggest would give that market to the Big 3 on a silver platter and I don't think Southwest wants that.