Motion Inputs 

I'm surprised you didn't brought up SF4 on the 3DS. You could access motion inputs from the touch pad so it eliminated the difficulty of inputs. However since they didn't re-balance the game around this charge characters became insanely good.

The biggest mindfuck had to be Ryu's appearance in Smash 4. The fact that his moveset remained so faithful on an entirely different system, and the fact that you could do EITHER/OR Button presses vs. Motion inputs, thus making everyone happy (mostly, except the motion inputs had higher damage and thus a bias for them), should have been far more emphasized as a victory for the genre but I feel like it kinda went under the radar.

This video essay when Your Only Move Is Hustle walks in

I can speak a little to the point you made on people with impaired motor function. I have some decreased function in my arms and hands, not a ton, honestly in my day to day I completely forget about it, but sometimes when I play fighting games I see moves like 360s and Demons (and charges to a lesser degree) and I have to just accept that those moves are things i CANNOT do because my hands just arent fast enough, it is a major reason why I enjoy games like DBFZ and SCVI so much, because the barrier for entry is so low, i can do all the moves even at the beginning, it's also why I'm really excited for DNFDuel. I understand that a lot of people really enjoy motion inputs so I dont blame them for being upset when they go away, but personally I find myself really enjoying it when i can actually access my entire movelist where I would otherwise have had to write off half of it because of my disability. Update: I've been playing Zangief in SF6, I fucking love SPDs, but I think SF6 has a super forgiving input buffer so I'm not sure if I'll be able to do them reliably in other games.

Minor correction: Fatal Fury was actually developed before the release of SFII, so SNK's fighting game development runs alongside Capcom, rather than stemming from it. SNK borrowed special moves from SF1, Capcom borrowed Super moves from Art of Fighting. Edit: mixed up names like an idiot

Honestly I really like motion inputs for the sole reason that I find them to be very satisfying to do. I like when I zig-zag and the big punch do. It gives my monkey brain seritonin that other games don't give me.

I think the key point is "New fighting games should experiment with simple inputs." That doesn't mean established franchises like SF, KoF, or GG need new entries with simple inputs. It means that the space of simple input fighters hasn't been explored enough to really know what the possibilities are. That's especially true because most simple input fighting games either a) are too focused on being simple from top to bottom or b) don't really commit to simple inputs. I like Fantasy Strike well enough, but that game didn't just simplify special inputs, it also simplified movement, combos, the health system, the super system, etc. Meanwhile, Granblue pretends that it has simple inputs for beginners. But just like Autocombos in DBZF, Granblue's simple inputs are a beginner trap and at some point every player needs to learn the motion inputs. We have yet to see a wide spectrum of fighting games attempt simple inputs and those that have tried are fighting against the fact that the dedicated audience of players that have stuck with the genre have to, by definition, like motion inputs. But I think there's a lot of possible upside if more games jump into the breach and try out solutions to simple inputs' problems.

Though this video focuses solely on motion inputs as a core concept, it's interesting how there wasn't a segment in this discussion delving into the many fighting games that attempt to find a solution to this "motion input conundrum" -Guilty Gear Xrd / Blazblue's "stylish" mode -GBVS having both 1 button shortcuts _and_ motions -Games like Fantasy Strike (or Power Rangers I think) that have no or little motions -MK as a whole (though it was mentioned briefly) Clearly FG developers are actively thinking about things like this as they produce these games, and I feel like it's a bit of a missed opportunity to not take a close inspection on what works and what didn't with each attempt made over the years Your video was excellent regardless though Look forward to the next one Cheers

As a hobbyist fg dev, something that wasn't emphasized enough is that motions allow for more moves without adding buttons. A stick has six or eight buttons while a controller only has four face buttons (many players find using both back and face buttons for basically the same thing wierd) and those run out very quickly. Even simple things like a sweep in sf is technically a motion input. Often motions also help players remember moves. If a character has 10 moves all tied to their own buttons (even if you could have that mapped to a controller). It would be very hard to remember which button mapped to which move. A shoriyuken in sf uses any of the punch buttons, so the player has to remember the motion which is the same for similar moves in many games and to use a punch button, which can be deduced from the animation.

While motion inputs definitely contribute to a new player struggling, I honestly think every thing being on the dpad/stick is a much bigger issue. In nearly every other genre, the dpad/stick is reserved for movement and that's it. Even something as simple as block not getting its own button can be a really bad thing for a newer player. This is one of the biggest reasons smash exploded in popularity. Hell, I've had ultimate players tell me they don't want to go back to melee purely because they can't turn off tap jump. As a PM player, I get it. Tap jump is annoying and the ability to rebind your controls is huge for learning a new game.

Smash’s popularity (aside from brand recognition and more polish compared to other PF) can partially be attributed to its near universal input system. Jabs are always fast, light attacks. Smashes are slow, chargeable heavy attacks. Up special is always a recovery move. The other Specials, while very different between each character, are easy to figure out because it’s all the same inputs. You can pick up an play most of the roster without needing to look at a move list. It’s not really the motion inputs that people can’t wrap their heads around , it’s that they change for every character. If fighting games just used quarter circles followed by a different button for everting, I feel like people would be more willing to learn the one input.

A very interesting watch Post the release of Street Fighter 6 and its addition of modern controls.

One thing I don't think is brought up for the mid - high level is how motion inputs allow you to read your opponent. If everything is one button for example you can stand still and have full access to your moveset. Who fucking knows what you're gonna do but with inputs you know, oh ken is down backing its less likely for him to super through fireball. Oh the grappler is whiffing buttons he can be hiding 360 motions in those attack frames to bait a whiff punish. Its mostly thought of with charge characters but motions also give away tells which is something else worth keeping.

I'll admit, even though I basically never play fighting games anymore, this is a problem that I have thought about a lot. Introducing any kind of complex mechanic into a game erects another barrier to entry. This isn't bad by itself, but the more complex something is, the more niche your game will become. Fighting games have, for the longest time, been incredible niche. Of course, everyone can lay a beatdown on their friend, or some CPU in the campaign mode, but anything other than that is difficult to even comprehend for new players. The worst part is that, in my eyes at least, there's not really any way out of this problem. By taking away what makes fighting games niche, you'd ruin it for everyone in that niche, sacrificing their enjoyment for greater appeal. A game with difficult motion inputs will be a "sweat game" and one without motion inputs will be a "scrub game." There's probably always going to be a divide here, no matter what you do.

I think that the use of motion inputs as a method of balance is also part of the reason why fighting games tend to feel radically different (and frequently incredibly unfair) at lower levels of play. I think it'd be appropriate to say that, frequently, the risk-reward of certain attacks assume your opponent is able to access their counter moves with a certain level of reliability and agility. Given Shoryukens vs Jump-Ins, per the video, a powerful jump-in option might be a risky but rewarding option at mid-high levels of play, since if the opponent calls you out, you eat a nasty punish, but at lower levels, when the average player might need 5 additional frames in order to perform the same input, that jump-in (which was probably up/forward+one attack button) goes from 'high risk high reward' to 'oppressive'.

I think the biggest problem with fighting games is the complete lack of mastery transference. It may sound weird, but I'd say that playing Zelda or Mario prepares you for Dark Souls, playing Skyrim or Portal prepares you for CoD or Counter-Strike. There are certain basic control concepts that carry over. Fighting games don't have this. If you're used to games where the stick is only there to move your character, using up to jump just feels like ass. Using the controller to do special moves or block feels bizarre and pressing two attack buttons to do a dash feels like complete nonsense. The only thing that will make you better at fighting games is playing other fighting games. The reason Smash is so popular is because it actually plays like a normal game. You could take the controls of Smash and fit them into a decent metroidvaniaor platformer. If you do the same thing with Fighting game contorls, you get that wretched Mortal Kombat platformer.

I really like the tactile feel that motion inputs have, but if some motionless fighting games (like DNF) get more people into the genre, I think it’s a good thing.

Dear Leon: as someone else who is also in the falling interest phase, I loved what you had to say. I think it's just so normal in FGC culture to just play an endless amount of fighting games but it's normal and healthy to get outside of those boundaries. A consequence of that is, yes, you might just go back to getting your ass beat all the time, but I'm having more fun with fighting games these days as a part of what I play, not all of it. The time investment to learn new characters and systems and combos is still kinda high for me so it's nice to play something that I'm immediately capable at instead.

I don't think the fgc will ever be happy with ditching inputs tbh. They're just too satisfying. I'm glad you discussed both positives and negatives of the mechanic though.

Great video with a nice balanced perspective, as usual! 15:03 to 15:22 feels like an important takeaway. Compared to other games, fighting games kinda require you to get your hands dirty and practice before you can have much/any fun (i.e. get to some interesting situations). In every competitive game, at some point you'll have to put in some serious practice to keep improving, but usually by that point you're pretty invested. When you pick up a fighting game for the first time, you probably only have enough investment to push through if you've been watching other people play for a while.

Core-A have also mentioned in their video on motion inputs how they directly contribute to the way character is supposed to be played i.e. Guile's fireball is a lot stronger than any shoto's only when he is close enough to them because of its fast recovery. On the farther distances shotos win because they are not restricted by having to charge their fireballs and can spam them as fast as they can input them after the recovery. Plus, his invincible move requires that he sacrifices all his movement, while a standart DP requires a sacrifice of all defence but can be executed smoothly while advancing (run up DP gang unite). Great video overall, can relate to not picking or fully realising a character I've enjoyed because of their inputs. Balrog has a goddamn input salad of all the different shit; Falke is legit unfeasible to play on pad; Cody having a 5 second hold, a timing challenge and the janky-ass clusterfuck that is his pocket sand input make me tear my hair out.

I think another important part of this is what motion inputs end up being on different controllers. I’ve heard differing opinions on this but I think using motion inputs on a normal game pad is a fucking nightmare. I played mortal Kombat on a pad for like 4 years, never wanting to pick up other fighting games because doing motion inputs on pad hurt my left thumb so bad. I picked up a fighting stick and it changed everything, motion inputs became much more manageable/intuitive.

Motion inputs were amazing, learning a new motion input to access another move for your character felt amazing... back before the internet. Back when the main people I was fighting was my friends, it helped me stay one step above them, but now we can play with people online, and with RU-vid learning how to deal with these moves or do them isn't that hard. They don't feel like a level up, they feel like the base line. I think motion inputs are great, and should be used in more games, not just fighting games, I just also think the idea needs to evolve. My most played fighting game is Brawlhalla right now, and partly because if I want to learn a new character, it's fairly easy. Characters play wildly different but fundamentally, they share a lot amount the cast.

It's weird to think that Masahiro Sakurai kinda foresaw all of this when designing smash lol. Like I think Smash is the natural end result of making a FG that's friendly to consoles/ analog controllers on top of being intuitive to the point that a child can pick it up and immediately understand it. Like it's all there, directional moves, a block button, analog movement. Considering that smash was concieved after Sakurai wanted to make a game like KoF that could be as easy to understand as Kirby, I imagine that these were all things he noticed that could be problems for a total novice to the genre. That's why I think that Smash and platform fighters have carved out a niche for themselves and manage to thrive in FG discourse, while something like Fantasy Strike... just sort of exists? I never hear people talk about it unless it's in the discussion of trying to make fighting games more user-friendly. I think any steps to try and make fighting games more intuitive are sort of futile half-steps where the designers either don't know or don't want to admit that fighting games at their core are strange and archaic and over the course of 30 years have branched so far away from the skills modern games teach that just about everything about them past pressing buttons to attack is alien to new players.

I think it's complicated to say "just take out motion inputs from fighting games", because it's something to consider from game to game Two or three MvC-like games diminished the presence of, or outright removed the presence of motion inputs in their games, but that's because an invincible DP is the least of your worries in that kind of game If a game like Street Fighter or Guilty Gear removed motion inputs it would probably lead to either an unbalanced mess or a toothless game, completely uninteresting at any level but maybe the highest competitive levels (just look at Fantasy Strike and more recently DNF) I don't have the answer to this conundrum, and I feel like no one else has

so the message at the end is "pls riot make project l good also release date when" god i love this video. I dont know why motion inputs intrigued my 10 year old brain back when when i first picked up street fighter. but after learning how to consistently shoryu, how to footsies amd anti air, etc, i instantly fell in love. Unlike leon i actually found myself trying every character (could be because i was a dumb kid with too much free time) but i do see the problem with its complexity. This video makes great points honestly i really like it, made me think.

An aspect of motion controls that may be important to consider: There are only so many buttons/keys on an controller. There is a limit to how many unique "moves" the player can perform without motion input. When I started playing fighting games, 6 buttons for attacks was a LOT to try to take in. Imagine if the arcade had a unique button for every single move a fighter could perform. It would be VERY difficult to play without needing to look down to find the button you need to press. Ergonomics limit how many buttons a player can reasonably find without looking away from the screen. Motion inputs increase how many unique "moves" a player can perform without increasing the number of input buttons. I enjoyed this video and your view points for this topic. Thanks for making such an entertaining and interesting video essay!

This is proof among us arena is the greatest fighting game

Personally when it comes to motion inputs, I like Smash Bros Ultimate and GrandBlue's take on them where they are optional, but doing them rewards you with higher damage, faster cooldowns, or in the case of Terry, infinite super at high percentage. I do think it's possible to have the complexity and skill that motion inputs deliver while also making the game more accessible for the entry level player, it's a hard balance for sure, but I do want to see more fighting games do what Smash and GrandBlue did as it's an interesting take that I'd like to see expanded and experimented on.

every time a video tells me that you cant hold back when doing a DP because its a 623 so that means your taking a risk for a powerful get off me move makes me feel fucking enlightened. like damn. thats true.

I think one overlooked aspect of motion inputs is controllers, the difficulty of doing a motion input changes wildly based on what controller you're playing on. Even though I had an Xbox controller to play fighting games on, I played every fighting game except Tekken on keyboard because doing any motion input on a pad is extremely inconsistent for me. Even on keyboard there are still issues like keyboard ghosting that make DPs inconsistent, as well as the fact that some games (lookin at you SFV) locked out certain keys I wanted to bind buttons to. Once I got a controller that was all buttons almost all the issues I had with the other two ways I was playing (save minor ones like 360s being exponentially harder, but im not touching grapplers anyways lol) were eliminated, but dedicated fighting game controllers are not an option everyone wants to commit to for obvious reasons, biggest one being price.

Lethal League did a pretty good job spurring my interest for fighting games.

Your crimes can be many but none will be more horrific than playing League

One other scenario I bring up in these discussions is how different motions make you change your strategy against these characters. You touched on it a little bit with the breaking charge comment. The example I like to use is how a DP character (like Sol) can block a safejump and then DP to try and get out, but a flash kick character (like Leo) can't. The main thing for me is I like it when DPs and fireballs and other special moves are strong. I would rather play the old GG instead of Granblue, for example, because of what you mentioned in this video - moves that are easier to do must necessarily be made weaker in terms of startup, invuln, and so on so they aren't the go-to option for every situation. If more difficult controls are the price I have to pay to keep strong moves, then I will gladly pay it.

I got into traditional fighting games because I found Terry's motion inputs in smash ultimate very fun. I still love motion inputs to this day and find them even more interesting (especially in KOF ironically enough since its inputs have a "reputation"), but I also enjoyed this video and your thoughts are very well-put out and have me thinking more about the topic than before. Thanks for making such entertaining videos ☺️

this might be why it was so easy for me to get into pokken tournament, i've played other fighting games but none as much as pokken where instead of motion inputs attacks depend only on the stick's direction and the button you press, every character has the same inputs so if you want to learn a new char you only have to keep in mind the different properties of their moves, one char's forward-y could be a simple punch while another has a full screen laser, but it doesn't feel weird to switch

haven't finished yet but had to say that the editing for this dudley part has me drooling, really well done

This was great work Leon. You didn't come off as a legacy elitist or a "babies first" FG player. You explained why motion inputs were great at its conception while also giving a good reason why maybe they shouldn't be mandatory for every FG and MIGHT help with player retention. This is exactly why I think Project L is going with the simple input method.

For me it was the rabbit hole of one character that got me hooked. I had forgotten all about Tekken after T4, but picking up T7 and playing the hell out of it led me to being crazy into the game again. And Ling’s amount of wild movement and deep mechanics and tech traps got me hooked even more. I was playing a standard basic boring stance Ling, and then someone said “A fast ff3 gives you a pickup there.” And that’s when everything got crazier. Now I’m doing her cancels, her infinites, her “electric,” all which I never knew existed in the game, and changed how I play and think about the game. That’s why I love deep, complex fighters. There’s always something to learn, and when you get with a group of people who are supportive and not the toxic side of the FGC, it becomes downright beautiful. Someone posts a video and everyone asks “HOW?! I need the inputs!”

What a perfectly dense chunk of information and the editing on this is just a joy to watch. This is one of your best videos! Love the work!

I think the solution is incredibly simple, and in a way, already here: Games should be made with them and without them. I enjoy shooting my stick left and right while doing stuff, I think execution makes the game more fun to me, not necessarily deeper, I can hit my BnBs and specials and supers consistently enough in some games to where it's often not a factor in that, but it's an enjoyable process nonetheless. But at the same time, I know some people don't really like that and just want to outsmart or outmanouver their opponent without as much execution barrier, and that's fine too, I don't think it's wrong, hell that's why games like Fantasy Strike and BFTG exist, and why Project L is being designed the way it is, while something like GGST still does things the old way. I'd be sad to see motion inputs go away for good, but at the same time, I don't even think they will. They're a feature that's a lot like what Counter Strike recoil control is. Sure the game influenced the military and tactical shooter genre as a whole, but something like Siege doesn't do it in the same way despite taking clear inspiration, while Valorant (and probably countless other games) obviously does.

I really love how you write a script. It really keeps me on my toes and I learn a bunch. I like all the new animation stuff you've been putting in. If you want to make non fighting game comment I'd still watch your stuff. Nice job man.

While I had Street Fighter II and Super Street Fighter II for SNES as a kid, I sucked at them. Learning the motion inputs and executing them, as well as fighting the ridiculous AI were heavy barriers for me. The only fighting game series I grew up with was Super Smash Bros., which instantly clicked with me because the genre I grew up with was platformers (Mario, Kirby, etc.), so the logic of Smash was perfectly sound in my brain. Free range of movement, I can jump and double jump anywhere, and each move was mapped to a single direction + action button. It was super easy for me, and it was the only fighting game I could competently play. It's because of that that when I play traditional fighters, especially 2D fighters which is Smash's closest relative, I find myself habitually trying to force platforming logic to the game when I'm not allocated that kind of freedom. If I just jump whenever I feel like, I get punished hard. Because I'm so used to Smash's basic inputs, I have a very hard time memorizing and executing motion inputs. It's a constant struggle, and one I can only get past if I'm playing every day, and if I stop playing for too long, I forget almost everything; whereas, no matter how long I go without playing Smash, it will always come natural to me no matter what. Yay! "Baba Is You" music!

It took me so long to do the shoryuken Input yet ironically enough I could pull off the snk inputs extremely easily. Still cant do the 360 motion though.

So, For me, as someone who goes out of their way to learn over a majority of the cast of any fighting game I pick up to a basic level, I noticed that my appreciation for motion inputs came and left and came back around again. Because although each character has unique moves on different inputs compared to the rest of the cast, each actual input is still the same. A fireball input is a fireball, 360 is a 360. I learned those inputs 1 by 1 because it would be the only input on a character I otherwise really liked, and then went back and found myself enjoying characters I wouldn't previously touch because I now am comfortable with those inputs. I don't think motion inputs really add any conscious strategy, instead they really just add stuff to the mental stack through the little quirks you mentioned, which I'd consider valuable in it's own right. I personally just value how it feels, and not really anything else.

10:23 Nice to see Leon overcome his phobia of Jack-o.

This is a pretty good video. I like all of the perspectives and most of the points were pretty well presented and supported. A lot of other comments have covered my thoughts, but I haven't found any on one set of thoughts I have yet. I think that there is insane value to having good single player or casual multiplayer content that helps you learn the controls of the game or interact with its fundamental systems outside of a more "competitive" environment. IDK what that might look like for any given game, but I think that this type of content is often super overlooked and (at least on paper) offers a ton of benefits to the game on a casual level (more fun stuff to do without demanding improvement) and on a competitive level (gets more people playing without compromising core gameplay).

About your conclusion, I think a fighting game that works shockingly well with (almost) no motion inputs, save for some attack that require holding back or down and such, is Pokken Tournament. The lack of hard to execute specials combined with the way grab, counters and normal attacks are basically designed as rock paper scissors with worse graphics, result in a game that, even at an entry level, is a lot more about learning what tools your character has and how to read your opponent, rather than learning how to even access those tools.

damn Leon you put in a fuckton of effort, these videos are getting more and more beautiful, when Ken pulled out that gat I almost fell out of my chair

Thanks for the video! As someome with chronic hand pain that completely locks me out of fighting games, its good to see an opinion more nuanced than 'get good'

livid at the amount of dbfz footage in this video when dbfz is all quarter circles

NEW LEON MASSEY WHO UP

Ayyy I appreciate the new touches in editing and the 3d models. Awesome video. Project L and Smash are the largest scale experiments in fighting games without motion inputs. I'm sure you have thoughts about Smash, DBFZ, and GBVS inputs that did not make it into the video. It will be really interesting to see how people respond to Project L. More games exploring the design space of a game without motion inputs should only make the genre more interesting and varied. Hopefully, the design solutions of Project L will inspire other games to explore other accessible control methods.

After watching this, I'd really love to see your take on the Street Fighter 6 modern controls, and whether the drawbacks Capcom intentionally worked into this setting actually offset the advantages of one-button specials and stuff.

As a person with semi-limited motor function, I very much appreciate this video. Keep up the good work.

That's the reason I've been waiting eagerly for DNFDuel and Project L. Been playing FG for a year now and while I don't struggle with motion inputs, legacy games like KOF and SF are much much harder to me compared to more forgiving games like GGStrive, in terms of input windows, combos and motion fluidity.

Repetitive strain injury is a pretty major factor in this topic for me. It's rough trying to learn a game when you can't play it much.

Your editing has been getting more and more amazing with each video recently

Motion inputs made me play fighting games bro. Sf6 is the 1st one I really put time into and I achieved Diamond rank, it takes time to get used to it but it feels really rewarding

The rebinding moves to other motion inputs part made me think: Maybe if you had motion inputs that are similar _enough_ by design, you _could_ be able to interchange them. For example, the DP motion starts with a forward which means it's easier to do when walking forward. It also requires 3 inputs that are not able to block. You know what other motion is like that? 632. A.k.a. Reverse quarter circle forward. Forward, down/forward, down. Or for another example a full-circle punch motion could be replaced with half-circle back and forward, then punch.

It's a design choice for sure, I'm excited to see how Riot handles it with their fighting game based on League.

Your points are great and the video was extremely entertaining. Great work as always.

this is a really great video on motion inputs! I've come a long way in understanding them over the last few days as I tried out SF6 for the first time. I can see how they significantly increase the skill ceiling and provide more tactile button inputs to the control scheme. I'm probably going to go through all of your videos about fighting games so that I can understand them better. I've played videogames heavily for most of my life and fighting games are one of the extremely few genres I've never been able to get into (other than casual SSB Melee/Brawl/Ultimate,DBZ and a little Mortal Combat). I consider myself pretty good at videogames and enjoy investing a lot of time to master a specific game, yet I've never had the desire to invest that kind of time in any fighting game (except for a couple fleeting moments every time I see the Daigo Full Parry vid). I absolutely don't have the expertise to make any sort of sweeping statements about their value in fighting games, but at least personally, I'd much rather predictable single button controls without those half/quarter/full circle stuff and 5+ inputs for a single attack. Feels overly obtuse to me with little in return for the mechanical complexity. but of course this is coming from someone very new to the genre 🤷‍♂

Idk how much traction this video gets nowadays but SF6's Modern Control scheme may just be the solution you've been looking for. Specials mapped to a button instead of inputs on it's own removes a FUCKIN MASSIVE barrier to entry

Wow feel the same way about pre learning motion inputs and post learning them. Before learning them I was super against them but now I feel that it's such staple and balance tool that removing it would come with losing a degree of control by the game devs and fundamentally changing how many characters work. Does create a fundamental dilemma for new players tho. Interested to see how the riot fighting game project L will handle this. Since they want as much accessibility as possible. Another banger video, love the improved video edits! Keep up the stellar work.

Thank you very much for approaching this issue from more angles than just whether or not the inputs themselves are hard to do on their own like certain other fighting game analysis youtubers tend to do

Thank you very much for this video! It really puts into words a lot of the problems I've had trying to get into fighting games that I couldn't find the words for.

I do think motions should still be in FGs if only because they're something that's unique to the genre and give the games a different flavour compared to other games. I disagree with the idea that controls are something that can't have their own learning curve cause I feel like it leads to a situation where games sort of converge on the same homogenised inputs and games trying to do something different with a more unconventional control scheme is seen as wrong. That being said I definitely don't have an issue with some games trying to remove them, but I don't think legacy series like SF, GG, KOF etc should get rid of them.

As someone that finally decided to get off their ass and start learning a non-platform fighting game by picking up Goldlewis (just yesterday, no less)... This video speaks to me on a spiritual level

I've seen like 3 other channels recently talk about the fireball or other FGC inputs that are infamous with the genre and I'm not mad about it. Here's to another great video and a great community!

That transition at 7:53 was god like props to you or your editor also really enjoying the video!

I think this is why DNF Duel's first beta was really interesting, and im excited for the second. Its simple layout of specials makes characters easier to pick up and play, but for higher level players you can focus more on strategy rather than execution. Theres still a massive skill ceiling in combos and using the moves correctly, but the barrier of entry feels like a step instead of a fence.

All fighting games should have a mode for training to use individual moves. Where the exact imputs are on screen and the game pauses in between inputs so even if your new to a game and have no idea how to use a move you can still get confirmation that you're pressing the correct inputs. After you execute the attack the game tells you how fast you did it and if it was fast enough to actually work in a match.

I think just gave voice more eloquently than anything else to my frustrations to learning fighting games, especially SFV and shoryuken as an anti-air. Thank you.

Motion inputs were definitely one of my biggest hurdles starting out. Everything from memorizing them to doing harder inputs like Z's and Half circle forwards, but imo I found it fun once the barrier to entry was overcome. The neatest part is how many inputs can be tied to one button, you got forward quartercircles, backward quarter circles, Z inputs, half circles, half circle forwards, 360's, 720's, the dreaded pretzel.

Interesting that you had footage of DBFZ while talking about the barrier of learning new characters, since I feel like DBFZ has very standardized motions that makes it very easy to pick up a new character. Any thoughts on games like Granblue Fantasy Versus, Fantasy Strike, or the upcoming DNF Duel and Project L that don't have motions or have the options of motions/directional inputs?

I personally think that motion inputs are great and I wouldn't change them as they are, but new games that try new things are always good.

love the 3D work in this vid leon, very cool!

wow stanley parable soundtrack, great choice! great video, amazingly edited.

This was a really good video. Well thought out, and not sensationalist. Here's my two cents as someone who has been a competitive fighting game player for the last 12 years. 1) I think you have a point when you say that motion inputs are unique in that they require mechanical complexity to access a tool. But in a way, they are not really unique when you take a step back and consider it simply another way to constrain an option. In league of legends, everything has a cooldown, even basic attacks and even basic spells often require mana. You don't have to pay anything to do a hadouken (it in fact gains you meter) and there is no cooldown (no, recovery time doesn't count because that still counts as part of the move). I think if new players considered this point of view, they might be just as frustrated with motion inputs as they are with move cooldowns or mana/stamina restrictions in other games. In a way, fighters are a lot less restrictive of the options in those games because the only thing restricting your access to them are far more within your own control. 2) It really surprises me that you identify as an experienced fighting game player and are turned off by the prospect of learning different types of inputs. When goldlewis and HC came out in strive, I was ecstatic because I suddenly had to control characters in ways that I never had to before (842 inputs and negative edge gun release). For a new player, these characters are intimidating to approach, but as an experienced player that's seen and done it all, it was a real breath of fresh air that my hands were challenged in a new way again. 3) I am also very interested in seeing new games without motion inputs. I have no idea if I will like them as I never gave rising thunder or fantasy strike a shot, but I will be playing Project L. One thing I do know for sure is that game will have significantly less diversity of options and characters for its decision. It remains to be seen if they can find a way to overcome that with system mechanics and daring character design.

The ending gave me some whiplash. How did it go from "motion inputs are an interesting balance decision" to "remove motion inputs"? Is it not that allure that drew you in in the first place, helping the characters feel more unique? Overall very good video. I just didn't quite understand how after understanding and conveying all that information, it came down to "but I don't want to learn, so change it.".

the editing oh lord almighty the editing, whatta beautiful video

I see the motion inputs as a way to have more options, as a new fg player I struggle a lot to doing it when I recognize the situations, however I usually feel great satisfation when I pull them off. Being said that, I'm down to see how they can evolve in future new games that come out, we have already see examples of fg that try to go with special moves without dp inputs, or cases like dnf or granblue or games like fantazy strike that get rid of them for directional inputs. But I'm like them to stay, but maybe giving the option to more convenients way in diferents game mod, Also Leon your videos have always been great in the editing, but this one feels especially great with all the models, animation. It feels really top notch, terrific work!!!

Great even-handed video, I like that people with impaired motor function and the inherent inaccessibility is discussed. Unfortunately I feel like the FGC are rarely willing to even admit this is the case. Personally, I don't know why but I always have a split-second of apprehension before I roman cancel because it feels a unnatural to me, and that split-second means it is functionally useless option for me. So being able to rebind certain universal mechanics like that would be a cool idea.

The complaint about button execution locking me out of play styles is such a huge thing for me. It doesn't matter that much in most fighting games nowadays. But in Smash, there's a few rush down characters I want to play that I simply can't, I don't have the APM to do some of the fancier stuff. So, I play Marth. I have the same problem with SC and Zerg, I love the idea of microing swarms, but I absolutely detest the APM obsession in RTS. And as you said at the end, the fact that you need to lab in order to learn a character's toolkit, makes the game unnecessarily limiting and time consuming. Aside from mobas and RTS, no other games needs you to do this, and even moba characters becomes mostly understandable after an hour or two of actual play. My complaint about this often gets dismissed as "it's not that hard," or "other games are just as hard," when, it's never about how hard it is, but rather how redundant it is.

This is a great view into an issue that fighting games have been trying to fix for a bit now. I'd love it if you made a retrospective on this video with the new Modern controls of SF6 in mind, seeing how Fighting Games have changed over a singular year yet from what I've noticed a lot more people have started playing them. Great video btw, really puts into perspectve how fighting games have changed over the years and have maintained a decently large fanbase despite the persistent issues that they are still trying to fight.

Another Leon Massey video, another video using something involving Venom as an example. Good job, lad.

As an aside on League: One of the MOST frustrating parts of League of Legends, for me, is the fact that "move" and "attack" are the same button. And there are multiple objects in the game that you can accidentally trigger while trying to move. Which stops your character in place, because attacking interrupts movement. I have gotten killed by this. Not as often as my own bad decisions, but it's infinitely more _frustrating_ because it's no longer about my decisions, but rather about my ability to wrestle with a control scheme that is aggressively hostile to the idea of letting me input _just_ a movement command (League has buttons for "move to and attack" and "attack only" but not for "move only").

I think the anti-air example highlights a problem with giving the player the option between "simple but inferior" vs "difficult but superior" options which is not exclusive to fighting games. The DP is optimal for a skilled player who can hit it every time easily, while a novice would be best off blocking or using a normal rather than risking botching the DP or simply being too slow; but the novice player actually needs to use the DP just as much, if not more than the expert because they need to practice the move the most, and they can least afford to lose potential advantage since they are poorly equipped in general to handle disadvantage or stay in advantage. I don't think that the "simple but effective" options in games should entirely disappear in favor of purely more difficult but more rewarding ones, but ideally I believe games should take steps to make it easier to identify when you're improving at a skill you're not yet competent in, and provide more opportunities to use (and therefore practice) those skills in a live scenario. For example, a "CLOSE!" or "LATE!" pop-up (like a rhythm game lol) if you attempt a special move and get hit/drop the combo due to being too slow would give helpful feedback to let the player know they're at least on the right track. A similar feature for inputs that come too early would also be great for combo trials and other training mode features. If fighting games want to become more accessible, they need to encourage newcomers to use motion inputs MORE. Giving players alternatives that fulfill a similar function with a lower execution threshold narrows the *performance* gap between a less experienced player using those tools and a more experienced player using more difficult options, but it doesn't do much to reduce the painful process of learning to use those harder tools.

It's also important to note that supposedly simple inputs can be horrid in their own right. Smash bros, for example, is known for its simple inputs for specials, but because there no tilt or smash button, those moves are dependant on how fast you flick the stick, which is super annoying to do in a game all about fluid movement. A dash attack, a smash attack, and a tilt all have basically the same motions with different timings. There's a reason that they gave us tilt stick. Furthermore, turnaround inputs are a pain as well. Things like a forward facing downtilt out of a dash are either a super precise input or what basically amounts to a half circle. Wavebouncing is super cool, but even with macros it can be annoying. Especially on moves that change their properties if the stick was flicked fast or not, since the macros will give you a fast input.

I really appreciate this video, I hadn't seen this topic addressed with much balanced in my short time as a newbie so I'm glad I found it

This explains quite well part of why I can't seem to enjoy traditional fighting games even though I really like watching discussions about them. Seeing how moves interact and what strategies each character brings to the table and what tools you want to use to face different matchups is really cool, then I try to pick up a game and it sucks that I have to spent a lot of time not just training for the inputs, but even memorising which input does what, which is a lot of confusion because it's usually really arbitrary (why does a straight uppercut need a downwards wiggle input?) and I'm not willing to go through all that for every character just to be able to play the game. Charges are the only thing I kinda like because of the stuff you said, they require you to create space, hold ground, and find creative ways to sneak them into other actions, everything else usually feels just like gating you out of your own moveset without really adding depth to the strategy, just to execution; I recognise it can still give expression to each player's style, but not the the kind i personally like.

I'll be honest motion inputs have been the biggest thing keeping me away from jumping into most fighting games. It's also one of the main reasons why I was able to put over 200 hours into smash ultimate, it removed that barrier for me and allowed me to jump into the more fun part of learning which characters I liked and testing out dumb scuffed combos I made up on the fly. But since so many other fighting games are built with those motion controls and I can't input a quarter circle to save my life I haven't touched most fighting games. Thankfully, DNF Duel looks like it's going to something really interesting with it's motion inputs. From what I've seen of the beta special moves have motion inputs but also have an easy input version, but if you use the motion input it'll make your meter start recovering faster. I think this is an excellent change to the concept of motion inputs because it removes the barrier for new players while still giving a reward to people willing to learn the more complicated inputs. The simple input would also be useful at more than just entry level play since if a more experienced player isn't confident they can get the hard input off in time, they can use the easy input and take the meter penalty. Now I just have to hope DNF Duel gets a pc release and then I'll finally be able to give another fighting game a shot.

When I was a kid everyone was playing Street Fighter 2 on Genesis, and like you said, I was one of the many unable to get either a DP or a fireball on command, I would often flub it up and do the wrong one. When I went to practice, as my 10 year old self, I remember saying "Diagonal" to myself every time I wanted to do a DP as I did the DP motion, reminding myself that I needed to end on a diagonal and not a forward or back. I almost instantly stopped getting a fireball when I wanted a DP or vice versa, and to this day I still think the word "diagonal" as I do every DP, despite the fact that it's been almost 30 years.

this video is sick. I never really understood motion inputs, and you really helped me understand what they bring to games. like I've never moved outside of smash but to be honest by the time ultimate was coming out, I realized I just don't care for these kinds of games anyway.

One of the most memorable characters in a fighting to me is Gai Tendo, in KoF XI. Why? Well, because Gai came from an obscure game called Buriki One which had Ryo Sakazaki in it, but also a completely unique input method. This meant that for his super, Gai had a series of punches and kicks that had to be inputed one by one, not with buttons, but with stick directions. Couple that with him being a regular MMA fighter in the sea of fireball throwers in street clothes (and the occassional cyborg) that is KoF, and it made him stand out quite a but to teenage me. And from the same game they'd also brought in Silber, a German karateka so large and heavy, that some of his regular attacks hit harder than most specials. In short, I think what I'm saying is that I really like it when fighting game characters have unconventional inputs. Is it better? Maybe not, but I feel it does make things more lively. And perhaps some of the aversion to motion inputs isn't just from their difficulty, but plain fatigue from them: if you didn't like them in the first place, and they're everywhere in the genre, there aren't many places you can go.

Nice video and good job navigating that minefield of a topic! As a developer myself I've spent years with the assistance of a good friend and FG player coming up with a system that accomplishes the intention of motion inputs (varying options with strategic trade offs) while having it coincides with readability and the ability to intuit what something will do. We landed on "motion context" and have applied this system to a character action game first which will have its first public showing in 23-ish days at a gaming convention and hopefully a downloadable demo not too long after that. If you're interested I can try and message you or something when it becomes available so you can see one potential alternative control scheme for FGs going forward.

Yo Leon's editing skill becoming GOATED

Super well made video, encased a lot of my feelings well!!

i appreciate that jojo's was on the screen when you said STANDard