Mark - I can honestly and without exaggeration say this is the most nuanced and correct explanation of the entire (unending) debate about action strength of Winchesters. They are all ample for purpose and designed for longevity. It takes a major and foolish excursion to blow one up, but it is possible to stress them too much and accumulate damage over time. I appreciate your candor and the depth of your knowledge on these topics. Thank you. Max
My 1894 must have been a special order. According to the serial number, it was built in 1900. Chambered in 38-55, it has a 26 inch barrel and a Lyman tang peep sight. The barrel is clearly marked "Nickle Steel." I like the crescent buttplate, too. It's a great gun to shoot! Thanks for the video!
Yes, Karl, your 1894 in 38-55 with a nickel steel barrel would have been a special order item. If you've had it lettered, it should have that notation on the letter.
@@thecinnabar8442 Sorry to say I've been lazy, and not had her "lettered" yet!! I'd better get off my posterior, LOL And do the same with my Grandad's 1894 SRC, made in 1906. It also has a factory installed Lyman peep sight, but is in caliber 25-35. He carried it with him on duty with the Royal Northwest Mounted Police, 1906 - 1909. They are both beauties, and deserve papers. Thanks for the reminder!
@thecinnabar8442 I have not had mine lettered yet but I just assumed it was rebarreled because the roll stamp seems to be a later one. Thanks for all the info.
My dad had an old black powder Winchester 30-30 with a flat band behind the front sight. He shot 150gr Remington core-lokt thru it on a regular basis. The rifle is long gone along with dad
A really excellent and considered video, I think many people look at the toggle link action from the strength of the toggle pins, but of course the strength is in the toggle joint knuckles, once wear develops the constant hammering with every shot can cause rapid wear, but in good sound condition ,and used with sensible loads they last a long time, the only Winchester barrel burst I have seen was an 1886 in 50-110 which had been shot with a squib load blockage, it had split the octagonal barrel 10" from the breach. Stay safe! Chris B.
Love your channel! Informative and fun to watch. Your videos have helped me out of a few head scratching moments. By the way my new favorite is a 1892 44-40 made in 1903. Keep those videos coming. PS just became a member of the Winchester Collectors you mentioned.
Great episode Mark! I was completely clueless on how stout the old toggle link actions are, just amazing! When I aquired my Whitney Kennedy 38-40, I was concerned about modern 38-40 ammunition. I thought surely with the change from black powder to smokeless powder, the factory ammo is a higher pressure. The fact is its exactly the same. Current factory 38-40 ammo is loaded to 14,000 psi. So I shoot my Whitney without any over pressure concern.
Great video with common sense approach. I always use my rule of standard loads but sometimes just only (1) up on the velocities depending on what I am hunting with a particular rifle or pistol. Older stuff, stick to the standard loads. Your gun will thank you & perform just fine. Plus you won't get injured. Watch Kentucky Ballistics video of his 50 cal blow up. He was lucky but it put him in hospital in a bad way. Accident all the way, no intention of doing a Blow Up. P.S. Clean, clean, & clean some more. Don't let your guns rot & be unsafe by not doing the cleaning. Even if they are not shot on a regular basis. I thoroughly clean every 3 months when in storage. You'll be surprised as to how they get dirty just sitting there.
It would be nice if you could address this subject with respect to replica Winchesters such as those manufactured by Uberti, Pietta, and EMF. I would assume they are manufactured with more modern steels however the actions are basically the same. I understand your channel mostly references original Winchesters and Colts however for many of us who are limited to using replicas, it may be enlightening for us. Thank you for producing such a great and informative channel.
Sorry, you'll have to look elsewhere for that information. I'm sure it's available somerwhere. Modern replica Winchesters aren't in my area of expertise.
Thank you for sharing the information with the firearm community! I still will carefully reload any firearm. I love the information but many variables are at play with any firearm and reloading ! I have destroyed one firearm and luckily I didn't sustain injuries that were permanent! To all reading this please be responsible and respectful as well as carefull of any warning signs of mechanical issues or over pressure issues! Stay safe and enjoy hunting and use of firearms! God bless you all and have a great weekend!
Wow that was very good and interesting information. When i shoot my Antique firearms. I fall under the mindset that its lasted this long. i dont want to be the reason its broken or destroyed. I only shoot Moderate to weak loads. If i want to shoot big loads. i will just buy a replica for that. Great video as always.
thanks. your explanation gives some peace of mind. i wanted a1876 reproduction and thought i was bidding on a 45-60. had my bids confused and wound up with a .45-75. was worried about the weak action but i always load toward the light end. now to find ammo! read about reforming 348 but that is beyond my abilities. your clear explanation is appreciated.
Shhh! Mark if you keep telling people they can shoot these classics then they might quit selling them to me.😂 Great video. Thank for once again sharing your knowledge.
Great video, thanks for sharing. I have noticed that many of the 38/55 have an oversized bore of at least.380 or more. If you try to use a cast bullet of that size the neck fits too tight in the chamber and then the neck can’t open to release the bullet. I can guarantee you the powder charge was not over max but near max and that receiver opened up like a wishbone. If your using larger than normal bullets ,you have make sure that your chamber is large enough to accept them.
Hi Mark, great video having a few older winchester rifles I shoot regularly, and I always load fairy lower on pressures. If your adjusting your sound for the videos, the mic is working the best for you, especially outside, inside when your switching, at least i think you are? there is way less echo while using the mic. thanks for the videos! Happy trails!
Mark: better ask before you 'blow' yourself 'up'. Was a range shooter with .303's and 7.62. Gave up decades ago; I like my hearing. A friend commented that the .303 Mk 7 cartridg/ Mk.3 Lee Enfield was not a high power rifle. I felt what's left of said shoulder and wondered. A gunsmith told me any centre-fire is high powered and he was wrong. Do you know the answer? Will never fire again and have not had a firearm (not weapon) for a long time. I think I like watching your show because of t he friendliness and the fact that firearms are an art-form (though the military modern stuff chills. Some time, have a look at the SMLE Mk3. In the old days they were converting the No. 4 action to the rising 7.62 Nato. The theory was the Mk3 was not strong enough. Probably unlikely in view of the existence of a more powerful loading during the War, presumably used in Mk 3's. The Mk 3 had a swing I have never seen matched. It is a shame large bore range shooting has fallen off. Please show us more machining, like how you drove that Winchester mag' between centres. Tail stock was a live centre; what about the headstock end. Thanks. Peter
Setting up a chain of wear points that will change headspace was not the best idea. I wonder if excess headspace causing case head separation and a gas release into the action may have contributed to the reputation of the toggle link actions.
Wonder if the Italian companies that do replicas of the 1873 use forged parts for the links and pins. Or modern Miroku-made '73. Seems that would go a long way to prevent wear and slop over time.
This makes perfect sense - there’s a lot of redundancy factored into a properly built firearm. But there’s always that guy that knows better. When I was gunsmithing there was a bloke that used to add a primer into the powder charge of his 308 match rifle - “just to help things when shooting the longs”. Yes, he was a moron!
My limited experience with Winchester 94 is with one in 30-30 Winchester from the 60’s but I trust it well beyond what the brass probably can handle. Still I don’t try to do anything that Lyman wouldn’t advise.
I have sort of rare round barrel Marlin 1897 that has a bulged barrel. Ive been told it was shot with the end of the barrel under water. Id love to get it fixed one day
what a shame about the rifle, makes me just about cry when I see it. I kinda suprises me that the togglelink winchesters could take that much pressure. Thanks for the video.
I have a 73 in 44-40 that has loose links. They are not cracked just loose. I shoot it and load for it with caution. Is there anyone who makes new links out of heat treated steel? Like you said do it safe and do it right...
Great Video Again Mark!! I always encourage people to be careful using smokeless powders in these old guns. It can be done, but you have to be careful and mostly use cowboy type loads. Myself, I prefer shooting real Black Powder though. Always learn something new by watching your videos.
I'll be producing an episode soon on black vs smokeless powder in old Winchesters to try to dispel some of the many myths surrounding that subject and give shooters better information in order to make more informed decisions.
This video got me thinking. I reload for my 1954 Winchester 94 in 30-30. My choice for powder is Trail Boss. I use powder coated cast bullets. Going in the opposite direction for powder charges, I load Cowboy Loads or even lower. It there a minimum amount of Trail Boss Powder that is safe to shoot? Other than squib loads, is there any danger to the gun when shooting low powder charges?
Yes! It's a rare occurrence with smokeless powders, but a undercharge of slow burning smokeless powder can cause a pressure spike and damage or destroy even a modern firearm. Look up "Secondary Explosion Effect". Of course, any undercharge of black powder is dangerous.
I bought an old Winchester 94 off a Native American in California back 2015 he said he needed money so I offered him $200 and he took it comes to find out it’s a pre 64 Winchester and the story is it belonged to his grandfather the stock has brass tacks and the feather that was on it is degrading he gave me a handful of bullets only to find out that ammo was made from 1900-1915. I shoot it once in awhile
@@guaporeturns9472 we’ll I got to know him well his wife died from drugs and his only 2 kids were gone too so he had none he was always drinking and was drunk everyday is was really sad
Quick question for to. Being you is specialized in winchesters. Do you have any 1873 round 16-inch 44-40 barrels you would sell. It doesn't have to be perfect, just usable. If not, do you have any recommendations for a company that would.
Any clone is going to be made of modern material, with modern technology, and 120 more years knowledge.. The clones are almost certainly higher in strength and tolerance than the old guns
That test also did not take in account cumulative damage of the increasing heavy loads. I would bet a fresh rifle could have taken an even heavier load for its first overload shot.
Didn’t P.O. Ackley test the ‘94? Blowing the barrels off and and noting no lug setback as well as removing the locking lugs entirely and holding it closed? I don’t have my Ackley books handy, but the ‘94 was/is a good design… I have an old 38-55 in the shop I need to tune the little flipper thingy on the left cartridge guide. Too many other projects so it is just camping :(
Yes, P.O. did some interesting experiments in this field. Essentially, when the cartridge case seals to the chamber, the bulk of the force is taken by the barrel instead of the action. That's why he warned against leaving any gun oil in the chamber area.
@@thecinnabar8442 Yep - reduce back thrust with less body taper and sharper shoulder on his ‘Improved’ cartridges. But he was also doing purposefully destructive tests to verify metallurgy and heat treat on the various military bolt actions - I didn’t think that his ‘94 tests were exclusively to test the reduced back thrust but also tested the strength of the locking. Of course the bolt actions have massive receiver support over the threaded barrel shank/chamber area and would fail there first.
I believe the reality of the 1877 Winchester test, although impressive, doesn't prove much about the strength of the rifle's action. The majority of the large black powder charge would be supported by the barrel and not the action. The bottleneck 45-75 case would grip the chamber walls effectively as demonstrated by tests performed by P.O. Ackley in the 1940s and 1950s. This grip on the chamber walls would counter the bolt thrust considerably, despite the very large charges of black powder and heavy matrix of projectiles. Modern rifle powders are progressive, as opposed to the fixed yield pressure of black powder. A more definitive test, in my opinion, would be the use of the then unavailable pistol powder behind a conventional projectile. A very interesting episode, thank you.
Great point, Mark! That's likely why we see the chambers fail with a massive overcharge before the action. It's also a good reason P.O. warned us to never leave gun oil in a chamber. I wish I'd remembered to mention that in the video. Thanks for watching and commenting.
Unfortunately, many old lever actions have very poor bores that will only shoot acceptably with jacketed bullets. It's the difference between them being a shooter or a wall hanger. Of course, they should only be shot at low velocities with jacketed bullets.
