I agree that clone wars has really weird consistency and continuation problems. I'm glad that someone has finally brought it up, because most people just talk about how the episodes aren't in chronological orders, but not the smaller legit plot-holes that exist. I wish that more time was put aside to make sure that Ahsoka's character made sense, or that some of it was at least fixed in her personal series, but from what I've heard it wasn't ToT. Which really sucks because I feel like the idea of her character is so endearing and would've fit perfectly into the bigger picture if done correctly. And I know I'm ranting, but her outfit confused me so much too! I would always think "isn't it cold in space?" But the only explanation that I had ever heard was that it was to parallel Anakin's "rebellious" dark robes, but that just never felt right.
Yeah, the tube top and mini skirt was definitely a weird choice and unfortunately makes it so that, at first glance, Ahsoka doesn't even really look like a Jedi at all. And yeah, comparing it to Anakin's dark robes makes no sense whatsoever, because at least he was still wearing robes/something Jedi-esque. It's not like he was parading around half naked on the front lines of a galactic war. The official explanation for why Ahsoka dresses the way she does is that it was to show her "immaturity." But like, there are other ways to show a 14-year-old girl being immature other than dressing her like a stripper. Such a mind-boggling decision. Anyway, funnily enough, we just released a redesign video for Ahsoka's outfits only a month ago, if you're interested.
Good essay. It needs to be heard. Not a fan of either two shows, but I'd take the characters of ATLA over Filoni's TCW OCs in terms of character writing any day. Ahsoka is what happens when a writer makes an OC and surrounds themselves with "Yes"-men.
So I've been meaning to show Ahsoka / Clone Wars to my kids but the show hasn't been interesting to them. I was going to skip to season 4 and on. Now I'm thinking about skipping the show for them, because of your review. Your analysis was very interesting and thorough. Thanks much.
I mean they are kids, and depending on around how old they are it might be more they can’t keep up with it. Dad introduced me to Star Wars when I was 6¾ with phantom menace; as I remember it we walked out the cinema about halfway through. In contrast dad was 19⅔ when he first watched the original back in 1978; that’s almost three whole times my then age. Roll forward through to today and I’m a Star Wars fan, perhaps more so than him. Give them time, then try the program, or one of the lighter films, again with them in a couple years.
Going off the fact that you only pull from TCW tv show I fully agree, but prepare for all the comments pointing out tales of the jedi, books, and the anthology nature of the the clone wars. I also wouldn't say that ahsoka is bad, she is barley above average overall, at least when the show started to get its more serious tone in season 3 when the show started taking off. its also worth noting the ahoska power growth was always more secondary to her internal growth, that isnt great but the focus is more on that.
“prepare for all the comments pointing out tales of the jedi, books, and the anthology nature of the clone wars” Yep. Already getting those. Lol. “the focus is more on [her internal growth]” We actually have a series that delves into Ahsoka’s internal character growth. There’s a link to it in the description of this video, if you want to check it out. :) ~ M.E.
To be fair when it comes to Ahsoka’s abilities there are many extenuating circumstances that account for some of your biggest complaints. I will say that her season 1 fight with grevious is probably the most egregious fight that does not have a great explanation but most of the other fights she wins or loses is due to either learning from her past experiences such as when she fought the trandoshan’s or with the clones for instance they created a short explaining that Anakin made her train against the clones specifically in a kill circle for her to be prepared for anything. With Maul it was due to his arrogance that he lost not necessarily Ahsoka’s skill and with Barris the first fight she was not trying to kill Barris while the second fight she was tired from being on the run as well as only having one lightsaber and being out of practice with using one lightsaber again. While I can agree that perhaps her ability growth is not as clear as a character like Katara I find it has more to do with the fact that clone wars is an anthology so a bit harder to track in terms of a timeline which you mention earlier. An interesting video nonetheless though.
“such as when she fought the trandoshan” Pray tell what we see in her fight against Garnak that she learned from previous experiences which wouldn't be applicable to the fights she lost against the other Trandoshans but would also sufficiently make up for her being weaker after a few days deprivation when she finally faces Garnak? “Anakin made her train against the clones specifically in a kill circle for her to be prepared for anything” I was quite clear that this is only looking at the character development present in TCW. A retcon montage from a different show obviously doesn’t count. (Nor does it even sufficiently explain her survival after that very specific scenario has passed and she’s being fired at by a hundred clones while she is in an effectively defenseless position more than once.) “With Maul it was due to his arrogance that he lost not necessarily Ahsoka’s skill” First, I recommend you check out “How Ahsoka's Overrated” by Magnus Media. He does a great job explaining how such a skilled opponent as Maul, even in a poor state of mind, should still easily beat someone like Ahsoka. Second, Maul losing isn’t the point. The point is that Ahsoka is still winning in the same way that she was winning in Season 1, showing no progression. And she’s winning against the likes of Maul after she’s lost against the likes of Barriss, showing no consistency. “with Barris the first fight she was not trying to kill Barris while the second fight she was tired from being on the run as well as only having one lightsaber and being out of practice with using one lightsaber again” I openly noted that she wasn’t trying to kill Barriss in the first fight. But since Barriss still couldn’t beat her, despite going all out to kill her, it means that Barriss is significantly weaker than Ahsoka. But then in their next fight, Barriss wipes the floor with her even though Barriss is also using a fighting style she should be unfamiliar with. Not to mention, Ahsoka was out of practice when she was fighting Maul too. So how come that wasn’t a factor there? And if you’re going to use “Ahsoka was tired” to explain her losing against Barriss, then I’m all the more curious to hear you explain away her tiredness when she fought against the Trandoshan leader… “her ability growth is not as clear… clone wars is an anthology so a bit harder to track in terms of a timeline” As I said, Ahsoka’s episodes are almost entirely in chronological order. Only 3 of her episodes are out of order: S2E17 (which chronologically happens just before her appearance in S2E5) and S3E6-7 (which take place right before her S3E4 appearance). So the anthology format has a negligible effect. We should still see a clear growth arc over the other 60~ episodes which are perfectly in order. ~ M.E.
@@imyouralibi6208 I mean while I appreciate the debate I’m surprised by this much engagement but let’s go through it. 1. I would say when it comes to point one much like any experience you will pick up more knowledge on the experience every time you engage with it. So while she lost the first fight she won the second fight against the Chief’s son, killing him in fact. Not to mention later in that episode how many other trandoshan’s they fought. So when it comes to that final fight while she was tired and malnourished she probably was able to receive a boost of adrenaline from the hope of being able to get off the planet not to mention just adrenaline due to fighting. On the other hand the chief was unbalanced due to he is rage against her for killing his son so that probably played a pivotal role as well in the choices he made. 2. While I may have missed the part where you mention how your not counting retcons it still holds some value however it was not 100s of clones even at the end I would guess it was around like 50-75 don’t get me wrong that is still a lot but I mean considering Jedi are in canon equated to 1000 battle droids less than 10% of that for clones is not that improbable. But I would agree and many do that they probably upped the power on both Maul and Ahsoka a bit too much because it was the last season. 3. While would need to go see that video I would say that Maul has shown this pattern before losing to Obi Wan when he was just a padawan as well basically where Ahsoka was except and this is more general theorizing and inference but Ahsoka was already someone who stood out from that batch of Jedi her age as she became a padawan earlier than most. Even building off of that she was given to the chosen one and a Jedi who basically was always in the middle of some of the most dangerous missions/battles so I would say the fact that she kept up shows she is above average which going back to my original point with Maul losing to Obi Wan, Obi Wan himself was considered average as a Jedi. What set him apart was he worked much harder than those around him. So I don’t think it is improbable for Ahsoka to have held up against maul and used a weakness he had to get the upper hand in the end. 4. I’m not really sure where you think Barris was confirmed to go all out trying to kill Ahsoka. Unless I’m remembering wrong and they state it I’d assume like most parasites in the Sci fi genre that the body is not utilized to the full capacity it could be under the parasite’s control. When it comes to her second fight Ahsoka assumed she was fighting Ventress and so was probably thrown off when she was fighting someone with a different style so to speak. When it comes to her being rusty with one blade while it does not say at what age she got the blade I would assume considering she started at age 14 and she got the blade roughly half way through the show that she was around 15 ½ by the time she fights barris again it has been 1 ½ - 2 years of fighting with two sabers. Unlike when she left the order and then fought maul it is stated that she left when she was 17 and the siege of Mandalor happened when she was 17 as well so not even a year had passed so she would be much less out of practice after 4 years of constant fighting only to take a few months break. 5. Lastly I must have missed that as well so my apologies but I would say even though Ahsoka’s episodes are in chronological order they are still part of an anthology series and so the episodes are made more to stand alone and so it probably is harder to show specific growth outside of each arch. That being said I agree that her character is not fleshed out in the best way and that they are not entirely clear all I’m stating is that most of the biggest issue you have technically have answers. And in comparison to avatar the issues are going to be a bit more obvious however Avatar has the advantage of being a much much much easier show to write than something like clone wars.
@masonguthrie1257 1. But the way she fights them never changes; she uses the Force and her agility to try to gain the upper hand but then she’s overpowered with brute strength. (She only wins the second fight because her opponent’s momentum carries him over the edge and he happens to land on a spike.) But then in the final fight she’s actually overpowering Garnak, despite him being bigger/stronger than the others and she should have been getting weaker due to deprivation. I’m sorry, but “adrenaline probably” is not a solid enough counter argument when she would reasonably have had adrenaline in every fight because it’s life or death every time. 2. First of all, 75 is not far off from “a hundred” (which is what I said, not 100s). Second, even if it was just 50, that’s still 4-5 times more than she practiced with and, again, she’s more than once unable to defend herself as practiced (hanging from a cord, disarming herself to cut a hole in the floor, disarming herself to push Rex to the escape ship, etc.) but even though we see her get shot four times, she gives no more reaction than if she got stung by a bee. Meanwhile Rex also gets shot and is no longer able to use that limb much for the rest of the fight. Her surviving the ordeal is 100% ridiculous and the TotJ retcon is laughable for trying and failing to explain it away. 3. I don’t know where you got the info about Ahsoka becoming a padawan earlier than most. Obi Wan became a padawan at age 13 [edit: 12, actually] which, to my knowledge, was considered very late. Ahsoka became a padawan at age 14. And Obi Wan was 25 in TPM. Meaning he had over 10yrs practical experience at that point AND he was tapping into the dark side. Ahsoka had only 3yrs practical experience and she beat Maul without breaking a moral sweat. There’s a significant difference there. 4. I figured it was reasonable to assume that if one is trying to kill someone they wouldn’t hold back. Hence the inference that Barriss was going all out. But it's a valid suggestion that the show may have been following a trope. However, all that does is leave Barriss’ S2 skill level unknown. And then S5 rolls around and, assuming both girls are off-balance because of using/facing an unfamiliar fighting style, Barriss is suddenly wiping the floor with Ahsoka? Kinda feels like that comes out of nowhere, doesn’t it? And sure, it may have only been a few months break before she fought Maul but even a few months of ‘rust’ should give her even less of a chance against him given his skill level. You can’t say it makes a big difference against a lesser opponent and then hand-wave when it comes to a more formidable foe. 5. And yet fans constantly gush about her incredible growth and development… And, again, like I said in the video: there’s a start and end to The Clone Wars, the events aren’t happening in a vague vacuum, and it’s pretty clear that the creators tried to show her growing over the course of the series. Also, we have a series here on the channel (you can find it in the “Fixing Ahsoka” playlist) that is rewriting her character to include clear progression. And, I believe, with some success. So you really can’t shrug off the lack of her growth/development as an afterthought, or as a struggle due to the anthology format. Not sure what makes Avatar “much much much” easier to write… I would think it would be more difficult to sustain the structure and continuity of one overarching narrative instead of being able to do whatever you want in dozens of self-contained miniature narratives. ~ M.E.
@@imyouralibi6208 1. It in her fight with Garnak which I just double checked with the inclusion of weapons he did not go to grapple her as much as in previous fights she had with the other hunters and the times he did grapple her he threw her so by doing that he lost his biggest strength and played more to her abilities which were agility and quick attacks. 2. I admit that I read that wrong and thought you said hundreds with an s alluding more so to the entire ship. When it comes to her ability to take some shots from blaster fire I would say this is just general force augmentation which we have seen other Jedi like Anakin use especially in the episode where Anakin is basically in the blast rang of an explosion but manages to survive. 3. In the clone wars movie Anakin or obi wan I forgot which make the statement that she is a bit young to be a padawan in which she counters that master yoda thinks she is ready. Obi Wan in comparison to Ahsoka had 10 years of peace to be trained in while Ahsoka was trained throughout the an intergalactic war. 4. Barris in the season 5 fight was using the dark side to fuel her fight which is basically as described by the creators to be a quick way to power up. Also Ahsoka had been on the run for multiple days however unlike when facing Garnak there was no proverbial light at the end of the tunnel as well as she was facing someone who was far more skilled and who knew her capabilities much more than the hunter did. 5. While I have already agreed that her progression is not shown in the best way by any means that does not mean she does not have any you completely skipped over her progression on the siege over Ryloth you mention her failure but you jump to the small detail that this was not her first time in command but even with that this was her first time leading a squadron of ships so your point is misplaced and later in the episode we see her doubt and guilt after leading her squadron into a trap. 6. When it comes to avatar it is a very simple coming of age story it is done very very well but in terms of the messages it makes they are much shallower in some aspects than to clone wars for instance how both shows approach war and politics is very different so it feels like both shows have very different goals and it changes how they focus on characters. That being said I can agree that Ahsoka is not some perfect bastion of character building however i will say and as I have been saying there is enough in lore reasons for why she acts or wins the fights that she does that it does not bother me and in some ways I enjoy trying to read into the subtext of the clone wars. Avatar while I enjoy the story there is not much to read into it’s just a good but basic story done very well
@masonguthrie1257 1. She held him off when he was trying to stab her, she knocked him back and disarmed him with her kicks, and she broke his grip when he was trying to strangle her. Those are all examples of her matching or besting his strength. 2. People always reach for “general force augmentation” to excuse her plot armour, but I never got the impression that it’s just a passive shield ability that runs all the time or magically turns on whenever convenient. And if a Jedi can just resist blaster fire like bee stings, then why did Obi Wan have to wear armour to fake his death, and how were they effectively wiped out by O66? 3. I shouldn’t be surprised at this point that the EU was being treated like garbage already in the TCW movie… And Obi Wan wasn’t twiddling his thumbs in the temple before TPM. There are many stories of the dangerous missions he experienced. [Edit: Including some in Disney Canon.] Using “Ahsoka fought in the clone wars” as an excuse for why she beat Maul is basically arguing that “she isn’t illogically overpowered at the end of the war because she’s always been illogically overpowered” which doesn’t make any sense. She should have died in S1 (if not in the movie itself). 4. Wait. So Barriss using the dark side explains how she wipes the floor with Ahsoka. But when Ahsoka faces Maul (a more experienced dark side user) less than a year later (and after having been out of practice all that time) then it makes sense that Ahsoka beats him because “she fought in the clone wars”?? Honestly, you’re just proving my point: Ahsoka’s capabilities have no consistency. Your “light at the end of the tunnel” explanation is just head-canon. And there’s also nothing in the content to support the argument that Barriss would have significantly greater understanding of what it’s like to fight Ahsoka than Garnak would. 5. I suggest you check out our series on Ahsoka’s character growth. You can find a link to it in this video’s description. Suffice to say: there is no meaningful character progression for Ahsoka in the Storm Over Ryloth episode. Or throughout the series at all. It isn’t a case of “not shown in the best way”, it’s a case of “effectively nonexistent”. If she had any genuine doubt or guilt over the lives she lost, she wouldn’t have exhibited the *exact same* behaviour in her *very next* episode. (Nor would she have loosed Maul to slaughter thousands more in S7.) 6. I suggest you check out “Is the Clone Wars a Kid's Show?”, posted by Magnus Media. TCW’s handling of mature topics is far from deep or nuanced. In comparison, ATLA received a Peabody award for its respectful portrayal of the consequences of war. “there is enough in lore reasons “ and “I enjoy trying to read into the subtext of the clone wars” What you mean to say is, “I enjoy making up my own head-canon and then giving the credit to the content”. I’m not going to claim that ATLA is a masterclass in complexity or anything like that. I agree it’s just a basic story done very well. But that makes it leagues better than TCW in almost every way. TCW is the bottom of the barrel when it comes to quality storytelling. ~ M.E.
