I got some 5" bookshelf speakers that were lauded as really good, musical speakers. People told me they have a lot of bass and that they're amazing. When I got them I was absolutely underwhelmed because it felt so distant and removed from the music, and songs didn't sound like how I knew they should because I had really good headphones that did great at bass. I used a crappy 8" sub that I took from my logitech system and despite it being absolutely trash, it still improved the sound when I properly blended it in. Now I have a 10" woofer (Polk PSW10) that initially just was boomy and peaky and would chuff terribly below 35Hz. I plugged the port with a t-shirt to tighten it up and it worked absolute wonders and made it tight and musical. Blended in the volume perfectly with my speakers and it's such a coherent system now. Sometimes I think "is the sub even on?" and then I just turn it off and notice a HUGE difference in "realism" or "body" of sound. It's really the case of "you don't know what you have till it's gone". Can't go back to a subless system ever.
I had a 5.0 system for 20 years. Thanks to videos like yours I invested in a sub woofer recently and it truly has transformed my listening. For music and movies. Phenomenal. The problem however with your technique of placement is that the best place for subwoofer may be totally impractical depending upon living space available. This is the case for me but I'm happy with the results all the same.
Hi Paul. I can remember reading Richard Lord recommending that same "swap places" technique 20 years ago. I also remember his comment that you should not be able to hear the subwoofer, you should only be able to hear its absence if you switch it off.
Invaluable advice thank you. I've almost been binge watching your videos. Enjoying your mild-mannered modulated way of communicating your intellect. Much appreciated. 👍👍👌🙂
I just bought a budget REL HT 1003 hoping it’s going to improve my very cheap tannoy SFX subwoofer , I’m here because I love this mans advice and videos.
Excellent advice, when I bought my first home theater setup, the guy at my local stereo shop ( Roe Photo ) told me to do the exact same thing and even my wife enjoyed movies and music. except she didn't like holding the sub woofer in her seat... still can't figure out why, it sounds amazing
The old dcm kx-12 series 2 don't need a sub when powered by a technics sa-ax6. Although i did have a couple hooked up for a while till they arced out one day. I love this channel, next time im in boulder im gonna swing by.
It's all about the depth of the sound with a subwoofer. My McIntosh MA352 amplifier has a switch to shutoff the sub outputs. When I flip it off while the music is playing, the depth totally disappears and everything sounds so thin and flat. I use a pair of SVS SB3000 subs with my KEF LS50 Meta speakers. I have them crossed over at 60hz, 0 phase, and positive polarity. Sounds soooooooo GOOD!!!
I agree! Most people do not know. Sub's pick-up the sound's impression that is not without! There is a lot more, but no matter how good you think your system is, a sub would be so subliminal with not over or under expecting a sound with a sub. Long statement, but so true! It will be noticed, and appreciated
I can no longer live without a sub or two. My 5 inch speakers don't produce any bass, and I know that even though my system is very revealing there is a whole lot of information that is missing in this realm.
This is all fine as long as the enclosure is compact. My sub I use for mixing is 6' long. Granted I'll be moving to a new larger studio soon, and I'm definitely an edge case but sometimes room treatment is the most practical option.
HI Paul, I recently bought a small sub for my small room and I cannot believe the detail I am hearing now, the sound is super smooth with so much more musical detail that I never heard before. If I raised the sub volume, the voices and accompanying music, start to get "bury" in the back, the perfect point setting is where voices and bass get blended perfectly with each other creating a much larger and clearer musical picture, if you will.
Hi Paul.. thanks for clearing up the most important confusion regarding the placement of a sub.. I have been able to make one myself, and the amp is a class D amp available from Amazon. It's kind of filtering upto 70 hz.... I was very sad at it's performance... Both the amp and the sub enclo8..... But it surely does well when placed in a different location in a room... thanks anyways. wish I could come and work for you, but it's more than impossible in the current situation
I like this talk. It points to why a "good system" is subjective and can't be defined. Your brain is a filter. What you are consciously aware of hearing is not the whole experience. What is above and below your conscious awareness still affects the experience. There's a reason why pipe organs go below 16Hz.
I think I read some time ago(in a book on acoustics or maybe psychoacoustics) that our brain actually fills in low frequencies when they are missing. This probably isn't quite as good as having a system with true deep base/ low-end sound, but it likely does make up for some of the deficiency. Well, despite my above commentary, I can attest from personal experience that a subwoofer does make a difference. I had a decent sub to go with my bookshelf speakers, and together the system sounded pretty good, but after the sub blew out I could tell the difference. I wouldn't say the difference is major, like night and day, but there is a sense that something is missing, just a depth and presence of sound, a subtle fullness that isn't there now.
I Love Subwoofers and Bass is general. Thank you for all the informative Videos and Time spent to Talk about HiFi. Congratulations on 100k Subscribers. Well deserved ! Regards from Munich City-Germany.
This does not happen very often to me Paul, I thought I knew almost everything about hi-fi, but your advice here is like one of those Homer Simpson moments where after you hear it, you just smack yourself on the forehead and go Doh! What brilliant advice! Thank you so much for sharing it. I really don’t think I have ever heard this advice before, not in the hi-fi shops where I worked, and not during home installations, or even the various hi-fi magazines I used to subscribe to while I was in the industry. I can’t believe I’ve never heard of it before. Again, thank you!
I am very glad to hear a bona fide esoteric audio nut extol the virtues of low bass and subwoofers. I am a proud, typically American, proponent of full bass. I never understood the notion of bookshelf speakers on stands without subwoofers or sounds below 50Hz as the epitome of "accuracy" in audio reproduction.
The problem is that ppl can normally not set them up properly. The method Paul lists above is also gone out with the bathwater...you need some possibility in your preamp/processor to set the correct ACOUSTICAL distance, not the physical one. So, measuring the distance to your sub with cm/inches is also useless if we talk about PROPER integration. All plate amps have delays.
I am a huge base freak and have been for 50 years. I explained it to my wife like this watching a movie without base is like watching a movie and only getting half the experience.
Coming from the UK originally, and now an American, I've got into the idea of subs late in life. UK thinking on this, as you know Paul, is to treat subs as the antichrist in a two channel system. Dual subs is the way to go and I actually didn't have to buy a high end subwoofer set up to get unobtrusive "invisible" bass that is totally seamless with my Thiel CS 3.5s. Even vocal presence is hugely enhanced. Have mine set at 80hz.
subwoofer are a huge boon to a system, i always had them in one size or another. right now i upgraded my nearfield system with bigger speakers, now i get better midbass and i can set my subwoofer to 60hz and get lower bass and better integration with speakers. its a whole new world of deep bass out there, waiting to be discovered. even acoustic guitars when they hit the wood.
Very useful advice. Expecting my sub KEF KUBE 12b to arrive in a week. (REL is not available in the UAE where i live) I have Klipsch Hersey IIIs on about 7 inch tall stands and tilted by 7 degrees as per their original bases, driven by a DIY SE tube amp 10Wpc. Chose KEF as they have speaker level input as you recommended to use for stereo applications in another video. What could be the starting setting of crossover frequency for the sub when I start with the setup? Room is 30' x 15" with speakers on a long side , two sofas and and a book shelf on opposite side, a glass window to the for the entire width of 15' with drapes over it, some plant pots along that side.
I agree with Mr.Paul, sub. its must have in your sound system, I have many big speakers even with two bass drivers but I always feel that some of the recorded bass on vinyl is missing, I have notice that cheaper PC speakers like my Altec Lansing 621 have better response on lower freq., I was changing speakers, receivers... but low bass like on my ALtec or Creative speakers never came up, until one day I have buy my first Kenwood active sub. this was game changer and today always in any setup must have powered sub. even small micro HiFi receiver must have mono-sub.out for me. Its good to have sub. with adjust. crossover. My choice of subs are JVC, good sound, very good bass drivers, amplifier el.section are mostly separate in metal box from driver, many of them have a beside volume control a crossover control and on the and they go very low.
"Even with two bass drivers" 🤣 yeah, its pretty common with 2 and 3 bass drivers😅 does not mean anything, u can have o bass drivers and they dont deliver any real punch.
If you use the SW at listening spot trick please remember that also the height matters. The sub should be at ear level and the person searching for the spot should crawl on the floor ears at a level where the sub's drivers would be.
hi, do you do the subwoofer swapping couch test you perform the home theatre calibration testing (as in the tone testing using mic to calibrate the entire home theatre system, including sub)?
Paul: The term I use to define Low frequencies is "Floor". The actual volume of a recording is determined by "Floor". If recorded accurately, "Floor" tells all! So many "Compress", and we loose all that Info. Rock On Buddy!
Thank you for the daily vids. Paul. Great simple effective advice. In your advice to set the sub as low as possible do you mean, The main sub setting of an A.V.R. or the speaker setting? I have my A.V.R. with speakers set to 40Hz main\center and 80 surround and heights. Though in the subs. setting I use 80Hz.. Would it be better to set the subs. main L.F.E. lower?
Hi Paul, excellent explanation, but I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t posted the video link of John setting up the Subs at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. It would be very helpful! Keep-on listening… music 🎶 Thank you!
hi ... i have a 3.1 soundbar, .. confusing with the setting of the decibel.. by default, it is set 0 dc for my my main speakers(left,right and centre) and also set to 0 dc for my sub.. i have placed my sub close to main speakers ,as suggested by the product technician.. hope can get your advice and opinion as i believe adjusting the decibel level (higher or lower) can improve the overall performance... thank u in advance 😳
I have a question my car has a stock 8 in Bose sub and a 300 watt amp but when I upgraded my cars audio system by adding a new double din head unit with a12in Rockford forsgate subwoffer and 600 watt 2 channel Rockford fosgate and was not able to use factory system is there a way that I could still run my 8in sub and 300 watt amp both on there own system ? There's a bit of toss up saying that the wires to amps would be to close and would give distortion
Not sure if you filter out the peaks. But by doing this method you find out where the sub is most efficient so you don't have to crank it that much to produce good bass. Still good advice though
Hello Paul, Knowing that you adore Mahler symphonies, and regarding a particular recording with HVAC rumble in it, I might guide you to Mahler's Resurrection Symphony on Telarc with the St. Louis Symphony Orchestra as conducted by Leonard Slatkin. In the beginning of the fourth movement (when my subwoofer is used), I "almost" perceive its presence there -- until the HVAC effect is shut off in the same recording, evidently a different take. I had owned this recording for a few decades, but it wasn't until I acquired a decent powered subwoofer and adjusted it properly, that I noticed this effect of "something missing" when the recording goes into the new take and the HVAC element has been removed. Cheers, Joe
Love my old Telarc red label LPs. So much dynamic range and close to the sound of the real thing. Made with a custom digital recorder. The CDs suck in comparison though with poorer dynamic range and they almost sound like a different symphony is playing. I would guess that maybe since it was sampled at 50k and 44.1 is not a multiple so it doesn't convert well to CD.
Ok, but your new PS Audio speakers have built-in subs. How would you set those up? You can't set them up for imaging etc AND for subwoofer efficiency with the same methods, right?
Hi Paul, thanks for the information. What if it is not feasible to place the sub in the main listening chair? I ask this because my sub weighs 155 lbs and I am unable to lift it...in any case it would probably not fit in my chair. Thanks
You don't necessarily have to put it physically on the chair. If the chair is easily moved, you can put it in the same place as you would your chair and get close to the same effect.
1) Move the seating it of the way, prop the sub up on something else, and place it where the seating would be . 2) If (1) is not possible, but a USB measurement mic (calibrated is preferred, the UMIK-1 for instance). Connect the mic to your laptop and use Room EQ Wizard. Play a frequency sweep and measure it (at the listening position. Then move the sub a foot or two and measure again. Repeat. Pick the placement which has the least peaks and dips. 3) For no money, get a free app on your phone that has a real time frequency analyzer. The Audio Technica support app for iOS has one, it’s only ~10Hz increments, but you get what you don’t pay for.
What about time alignment? Unless your sub is the same distance fro your listening position as your mains you will get a difference in arrival times for the direct sound which will smear frequencies around your chosen crossover point. Thoughts?
Adjust your phase on the sub. Any decent avr will correct for that as well but most decent subs have a phase dial to adjust the "pulse" timing, as you say.
Hi ps audio. I just got some kef q550 (rated down to 60hz) but the bass doesn't match my q55.2's (which were rated to 40hz). Do you think 10 inch, 8 inch, or even dual 6 inch subs would be better deep but not super deep like I used to have? As you say - I don't really want to hear the sub is there.
Just realized when I had bought an active speaker set with a optical input, cant have a subwoofer. No way I can balance the sound volume, since the speaker have its own volume control.
Hi Dude, I have a Denon x3600H 9.2 Av receiver. So can you suggest me the low budget speaker system. How many speakers doses it need ? Which is better Klipsch or Polk audio? Thank you.
If I run speaker leads from the amp L+R speaker output to the 8 ohm sub woofer L+R input, then from the sub's speaker outputs to the 8 ohm loudspeakers' inputs, will that change the impedance? My amp is now set for 8 ohm speakers.
Hello, thank you for sharing! I have the B&W ASW608 sub I just purchased. I have a Denon 9.2 receiver. Do I connect both "line out" cables to the receiver, or just one? Sorry, new to being an audiophile. I have a B&W 9.1 setup going (2 atmos speakers included)
Do let me know how it works out plz Just ordered the b&w db4s sub, and I have the 702 s2 speakers. Im new to subs and dont know how to set it up right, for now.
Question: I just received a Yamaha soundbar and a SHU sub... I tried hooking it up to my bedroom TV (Sony A9S Oled 48"), The light's are on on the Sub, I have the sub connected to the Soundbar but there's no sound from the sub. The soundbar plays but not the sub. Suggestions? Thank you Joe
My subwoofer’s Crossover is at 70hz (2 Front Towers with pretty ok base by Themself) With a realy steep slope... Is there any roule of thumb For The steepness or slopings of subwoofers in Stereo Systems? In my homecinema Setup, ist more even and crossed around 90hz...
Not saying the sub-crawl is a bad idea, but it only works with somewhat normally shaped rooms in my opinion. If you have a room shaped like a horn then putting the sub on one side and then the other will react differently. Ps. You should do a child-show type mail song before you open the mail.
Hi Paul, I have my crossover frequency set to 80 Hz on my amplifier, would you say that that is pretty ideal? I noticed in your video that you say that you don’t like to set your frequency higher than 100 Hz. This is the reason why I have set my crossover frequency at 80, it won’t go any lower.
I set up my sub (dali e9-f) the same way, only thing I did different and I feel is important is setting the level. For me I turn the sub level to 0 and then gradually bring it up until I can just hear it and then back down a notch and it integrates about as well as I need it to.
If you have an adjustable low pass filter is there a rule-of-thumb you should follow when determining what low frequencies are sent to the sub? If your bookshelves start at 45hz and your subwoofer can go as high as 100 hz, does this mean you would set the low pass at 45hz or should you go as high as the sub will reach?
I think 80-100 is about where people roll off the sub. I would also maybe get a set of headphones, listen to music, and try to get the same balance/sound from your speakers & sub.
Since you want the sub to be inaudible at frequencies high enough to enable listeners to "hear" the sub's location, and since frequencies lower than 80Hz are increasingly non-directional, it is probably best to start at
choose how high you wish your sub to go, i recommend ~80 for lower order crossover and ~100 for higher order one then cross the sub and the mains over at that same frequency this is important, if there's an overlap between the mains and the sub, the sub will never blend because when there's an overlap in frequency response, the sub no longer acts as an integral part of the system anymore but acts as an extension/augmentation/whatever you call it and that's not a good thing (and doesn't sound good). it's not recommended to cross over at the bottom of the mains because bottoming anything even a subwoofer can destroy the driver easily and it sounds bad due to resonance. it's best to set the frequencies at least 1 octave higher than resonant frequency and 1 octave lower than beaming frequency of that particular driver.
Excellent presentation, and thorough explanation. Thumbs up. I enjoy your presentation in this informative video; in fact I am trying to decide on purchasing a small, and if possible affordable subwoofer for my stereo system whereby the very low frequencies of music don't overpower the two speakers; as you've expressed in the beginning. I have a Sony receiver, STR-DH520 of at least 85 watts (of 2012), and I'm wondering is an 8 inch subwoofer ideal, and preferable to a 10 inch subwoofer speaker? Thank you for your expert, experience advice. Also, vinyl is final.
I also want to know if a 10 inch would be better than a 8 inch. I got some kef q55 which go to 60hz. I'm wondering if the sub is too big and boomy for 55, 50, or even 45 to 40 hz.
Can I come in to your company and show you my 2 speaker system with a subwoofer and give me some advice on my system and how to set it up and settings for my subwoofer. I live in Denver by the way.
my ML sub suggests 70% of low end of bookshelf frequency response for crossover.eg @ 80 on bookshelf it would be 56 hz on sub .does that make sense to you?
Hi sir i'm from philippines and new subscriber to your videos.sir i have a question. If i buy an amplifier how do i find if it is genuien or fake? The popular products here in PH are kevler,sakura and konzert. Thank you.
All I am trying to do is hook up my sub woofer! I have a control system in my wall my speaker wires are hookup from my Sony receiver the CS now where do i run my wires for the sub woofer to the receivers or cs?
Paul, I've heard of this method many times. What about dealing with room modes by using two or more subs? This method goes out the window, correct? Can you do the crawl technique you describe, with multiple subs?
@ps audio or anyone else, i am new to home theater, i got an integra receiver that only powers loud speakers and not a subwoofer, so the setup says to do a preout to a powered sub or amp then sub. so for me to get the best for what i want to pay, should i get a powered sub in my price range or since i already have a passive sub from an old system, just get an amplifier ?
@@Paulmcgowanpsaudio thanks i picked up a powered sub yesterday and now the receiver went out, but i can still take it back, i got super cheap for it. would you get an integra receiver or yamaha?
Trying to connect to a Polk subwoofer that is entirely wireless. The only cord that is connected to it is the power cord... no input or output jacks. My soundbar, ZVox AV155 does have pin plug output jack for it's intended subwoofer. Any ideas on how this could be make to work...??
