Moving the speakers into a nearfield listening position can also help as the the listener would hear real increased levels while the total sound output, and hence what others perceive would still be less. Thanks Paul!
@@PharaoRamsesII Headphones and nearfield have different strengths and I often prefer nearfield. Although, in the future, with Meta, we may have no choice :)
This stuff should be somewhat obvious but for some reason we need to hear it very well explained.. and you DO explain things very nicely and make sense of things in words...so for this i say thank you.
Orrr ... buy a graphic equalizer and insert it in your system. The great thing there is, you can adjust the settings to taste, and turn it off when playing at louder levels. . I have been mixing music for years and have a 32 band graphic between my monitor controller and my monitors. Used reference tracks to calibrate it. Works like a charm. :-) .
Back in my student days I couldn't play music loud when my fellow students were sleeping during the day, but I had a modest Japanese integrated amp with a loudness button. The fixed loudness curve only worked over a very small range of low volumes, but over that narrow range it did sound quite a bit better than leaving it flat.
Although i am not a qualified electronic engineer but i am working with audio amplifiers since 1979 so your information is quite a valuable thing for me and i trying my best to gain much knowledge form your lectures and i enjoyed a lot. i am from Pakistan
Back in the 80s when I first learned how to properly use a "loudness button" it was a great revelation. Shortly after that manufactures quite installing them. And shortly after that I discovered "high end" audio. Went into Stereo One in San Diego to find an EQ, or anything, to make my system sound better. He then told me, in only the smallest of snobbery, that none of their equipment even had tone controls. Then he let me listen to the Celestion SL600, that started the started the roller coaster.
What I have found is you sort of get used to listening at a set volume but if you lower the sound gradually, it gives your ears a chance to readjust and what might have sounded too quiet a couple of weeks ago doesn't anymore. Alternatively, buy a pair of headphones. I've just bought a pair of Quad Era and love them😄.
Great video as always. Speaker / Amp choice can of course make a huge difference. I’ve found LS50 Meta’s paired with a Hegel H120 work really well at low volumes without changing the dynamics / narrowing the soundstage too much compared to other speakers & amps I’ve had in the past. Quite a dramatic improvement actually! Hope this helps somebody.
Thank you for explaining how volume affects the overall hearing experience. When I was younger I liked music played loudly. I’ve discovered that for the most realistic hearing experience, the volume needs to be just right. Now I know why.
Thanks for your explanation Paul, this is the question in my mind for long time, on my opinion the quality of the system can be tested on how the system remain give the details of each frequency at low volume level , that's my parameters if the system sound great at low volume level, without truncated the bass , and treble, then it will sound great at normal or higher volume level. Thanks for your insight about the loudness control. Stay safe and healthy Paul.
great explanation.. I was asking myself about that loudness button.. which sounded awkward at high volumes.. It all makes sense now.. Thank you dear sir!
Wow, that was some excellent information there Paul. I'd never heard of the Fletcher Munson curve before. That explains why I always have to play my LPs at a specific level to have them sound their best. Great video! 👽🖖"Na-nu"
Thanks for the talk! I found my own solution for low level listening, and that is large speakers! I have kef concertos which I really like. Very old and not too everyone's taste, but they really do the business at low levels, due to thier warmth. Low frequenies are clearly audible with all the radiating area of the b139 woofer. At high levels they might overpower my room with all the bass, but when at a whisper, they permiate the space with all the presence I could want.
Thanks Paul, as usual, great insights. I have been struggling with this issue on my desk top as I don't want to blast my ears up close to the speakers. I found a combination of Paul's suggestion along with some of the advise here useful collectively: 1. I use a lower power speaker (less than 20W) - I used a commercial speaker and replaced the drivers. There are some good options in PartsExpress. I chose a long throw driver for my kind of music. 2. I use an free equaliser - APO - its free but it works on PC only! Windows players also have an EQ option - good to experiment. It gives better control over each frequency band to customise listening curve. @StewartMarkley has some good suggestions for others EQ's. 3. I also keep the speakers towed in and at ear level. Raising a few inches to ear level made a big difference. 4. Used a high power amp. 5. Someone suggested a pre amplifier - I found it improves sound staging to a large extent. An option is using a DAC - their price is quite reasonable now - many have a preamplifier built-in.. 6. Another interesting option is to bi-amp and apply sub 1K frequencies to the driver and others frequencies to a full range - that may require a custom job though.
Wow! Thanks for that excellent explanation- I never really understood how the 'loudness' button can improve the listening experience- now I know. I think I need one!
Hi Paul. I have seen many of your videos and have learnt a lot. Not only you're full of knowladge, you are a very funny guy! Thanks for taking time to educate us. Paul for president!!!
Three years ago and we’re still listening to you at low volumes 👍 So when I turn the fully balanced ARC LS10SE down low as it can go, it swings to the left channel only, with the right channel dropping off early. So low volume listening is not so ideal in this system…
Great video. I have had some issues lately adjusting the volume. When it’s too low it just sounds flat and not real. When it’s too loud, it also looses some of its realistic properties, but the music is very much alive. When you turn the volume to the level which seems realistic, magic happens.
My hifi, determined where, and what i live in... A detached home, on 1/3 of an acre in a semi rural area... It comes to something, when you have to buy a house under those rules... lol What we do for our hobby... some would say we are just nuts... Frank...
Very well explained! I have tinnitus which gets even worse anytime I treat myself to "high" volume levels...It is That which prompts moderation more than anything else ,at least for me...so I learn to enjoy at Moderate levels which cause no further ill effects to my hearing...I get a kick outta people in audio forums talking about running their 200 and 300 watt per channel amps at "reference" level..like wtf? How is that Not damaging ur ears? I would either be deaf or have tinnitus flare up so bad as to be unbearable...
A few things that helps: 1. Use class A amp. 2. Reduce background noice (through walls, windows, printers etc) 3. Purer power. 4. Antivibration. 5. AMT-tweeters and midrange. 6. Listen in your sweetspot
I found adding a subwoofer made a big difference to low level listening. I know it sounds counter intuitive but it's true. I can now listen and enjoy music late at night without waking wife/kids. Before I had a sub it wasn't enjoyable for the reasons you describe.
Unusual topic. I listen to my kit at low volume a hell of a lot. Not that I have to worry about neighbours, I don't have any close enough. But I have never noticed that the overall sound diminish in any noticeable way. Or not that it doesn't sound as good as it does loud! You may want to close your eyes hear Paul, but I have Bryston equipment. My amp packs 600w per side, but sound great at whisper volume level as it does deafening me😄😄
4 года назад
Excellent explanation. We tend to forget it’s all just electronic trickery and instead put too much thought into how it sounds rather than the music itself.
I assumed that was the reason for the “loudness” control, but it was great to be affirmed! That has to be one of the most abused buttons on a tuner. People crank it up AND hit the loudness. Distortion a plenty. I’ll bet that is the single greatest cause of blown home audio speakers. Thx!!
I just bought a Sennheiser 560 for nighttime listening. I love them. Most headphones annoy me but these are extremely comfortable with beautiful sound that doesn’t annoy my ears like most headphones do. I’m using a massive marantz sr7500 to power them and I’ve cranked these things up to make my ears bleed with no distortion.
Increasing the volume does not compensate for the lack of sound quality. Once you have built up a system that you can listen to at a moderate level, then you know you have reached a level of sound quality that you want to just sit and listen to. At this very moment, your eyes will close whilsts you drift into hifi heaven!! I love it! P. S. Headphones are not the answer. It's all about transparency.
Hear music below 75 db. Like . In my place it's never gonna wake anyone . I realized hearing Netflix on a office sound level is like insanely captivating .
I toe the speakers in more at night for low level listening so that the tweeter is firing directly at me from each speaker. It makes the center image sharper and makes the voicing more apparent. I don't like this during the day (it shrinks the sound stage and the speakers do not disappear) but for low level, late night listening it helps a lot. I can listen at very low levels this way. I also tend to listen to more singer-centric music or jazz at night (think Joni Mitchell) where the emphasis isn't on a huge sound stage but the singer themselves. So between the type of music and toe-in I can listen at low levels. Much different than other times when I want normal volume listening (I rarely crank up music).
I used to like loudness controls, and used them. Then I spent 20 years in broadcast engineering, and became accustomed to listening on studio monitor systems, which have no loudness compensation, at all kinds of volume levels -- and thereby I unconsciously trained myself to mentally compensate for the Fletcher-Munson effect. Now I enjoy music fully, even at low volume levels, with no loudness compensation needed. In fact, it even sounds flat to me, so good has my psychological conditioning been. Now I can't stand loudness controls. They sound bizarre and unnatural to me now.
Looking at any spectrum analyzer will show that most of the "musical" energy is in the midrange. Our human hearing is also designed to be most receptive to the midrange. If you excessively boost an equalizers bass and treble (smiley curve) to flatten the response, it gives an unnatural sound. Few loudness controls do the job as they boost around 100Hz and 10kHz at fixed levels only. A variable loudness option (Yamaha) is more natural and a better choice. Or buy a graphic equalizer, the more bands, the better. Tough topic, but nicely explained. Thanks Paul.
This is Brian. I had a pioneer qx8000 quad receiver. I used a Dual 1229 turntable with a top Empire Cartridge. I used 2 McIntosh rear speakers (3 way?) And 2 Old Sansui up front with 6 speaker array in them. All had 12 inch woofers. It was 3 a.m. , I was spinning vinyl in my apartment when my friend quietly whispered across the room, " Won't this bother the neighbors?" I responded whispering back, " we are whispering quietly and we are not as loud as the music" So , how are we bothering anyone. Personally, you either need better equipment or you need to know how to operate your your current system.
You always learn something new. I always thought that loudness buttons and knobs would compress the sound levels to make the dynamics more manageable at night hence allowing you to raise the volume. Something along the line of midnight mode on some soundbars and receivers.
G Guest Yup, that’s how the loudness control worked. The only problem with the idea is that it could not know what SPL your ears were getting so it couldn’t really accurately compensate for the different loudness levels. But it was an attempt anyway. It’s better to have some tone controls like the Bellari EQ570 which is essentially identical to the Schiit Loki but is just $119 and has much bigger and more widely spaced controls which makes it a lot easier to use.
Amazingly uncanny! I watch your informative, well-presented videos regularly and have learned a lot. But, recently there have been 3 or 4 (not necessarily new posts) that have hit right between my eyes...wanted something regarding subwoofers and there you were next time I went to youtube; same for speaker placement...and this one, as I low-level listen quite a lot. And, of the two requisites of a new amp I'm getting, one was loudness control function. Thanks for the great timing, Paul! Keep the super-helpful vids coming.
I had a similar problem. I liked listening to the music only loud, like I always wanted to turn the volume to the max. Until I changed my speakers. The Amp, cables, dac, music are all the same. But the new speakers got me the "big" sound. I suddenly feel everything even when listening quietly. Now, when using just 1 watt, I really enjoy. I can clearly hear and feel the bass kick, which on smaller speakers was there, but somehow didn't "drive" me, didn't make me wanna dance... Maybe its just in the size of the speakers, I don't know. Before, when I needed to listen loud, I had wharfedale 9.5 with 6.5 inch woofer. Now, when I enjoy quiet music, I have quadral montan mk3 with 12 inch woofers. They are old, but really big and great, with the sound just like that!
Grea explanation - asl always from Paul. Another idea for llow volume listening could be adding artificial "sound excitement" by adding an extra device into the chain (e.g. between the pre- and main-amp). These devices are often used in studio mastering and even live on stage. Currenty, I am using an old parametric EQ from SPL (called Qure), taking advantage of a special tube powered "voice enhancement" section curcuit that adds some very nice sounding harmonics to the signal. And, I am considering to reach out to them for a more "exciting" type of gear, called SPL stereo vitalizer, expecting even more sound transparency. Reviews and testiminials appear very promising - and this device is below 1000 bucks. Another trick which I use regularly is to add a bit of reverb to the whole music - this works great for most kinds of music. the trick here is to keep the level very subtle.
Headphones work really nice for late night listening. They're a whole lot better now than the ones I had in the 60's. They might even sound better than your speakers.
Have to agree with you. My current headphone setup sounds better than my full size home system ever did, and at a fraction of the cost! However, I'll always miss hearing that room filling space of the soundstage, and the physical feeling of the dynamics and low bass that will never be available with headphones.
It's the best workaround imo. I'm listening on headphones (some Audio Technicas that were less than £100, so I'm not exactly breaking the bank or hitting the top end stuff with these) right now because it's 2:30am and I don't want to wake anyone. My headphones are supposedly a flat frequency response but I find they're a little quiet in the bass and high in treble, but I think I'd rather it that way around than an artificially high bass. When I'm recording and producing music I find headphones useful to get detail about a single instrument track and apply changes to that one track but when I mix a song on them it sounds terrible as I miss the bigger picture of the how all the instruments work together.
I think I’m going to go with headphones for when I need the quiet, but I want to experiment with a near field setup with my speakers too. Ive got a pioneer receiver that was a top of their line 32 years ago, but the filter caps seem to have gone bad.
There is dBA, dBB and dbC. This is from wekipidia - Since the human ear is not equally sensitive to all sound frequencies, noise levels at maximum human sensitivity, somewhere between 2 and 4 kHz, are factored more heavily into some measurements using frequency weighting
turn out all the lights - sit in darkness and suddenly your music sounds much larger and the soundstage is back for the same level that was lost when the light is on - its about allocationg your senses - when the sens of sight is not used your hearing is more sensitive
You're absolutely right; I close my eyes when really LISTENING without realizing why. Thank you for..."allocating your senses"! Just never thought of that in those terms.
I had this exact same problem and so I bought a headphone amp and headphones and connected them to my laptop. It's quite a good way to go I think, because you can get quite amazing results for not a huge amount of money. It's a different sound: in some ways better; and in some ways worse.
The acoustic level of any sound appears "real" only at the volume it exists naturally. Otherwise you are aware that the sound is "amplified" or is coming from low level reproducers. You con make a recording of a live concert of amplified music sound "real" by turning the volume up until you are aware that it is the speakers you are hearing and not the instruments and voices. I have never heard a vocalist produce 120 Decibels of sound. (Those Met Opera folks are really powerful though) Likewise, I have never heard the symphony orchestra play a loud full orchestra piece at 20 Decibels. (Well maybe from the green room with the door closed) But then, it didn't sound like out front either.
Why on earth did manufacturers ditch the loudness controls?? The 10 level adjustment on my vintage Yamaha CR-620 has proven to be quite useful, separating it from many other high quality amps even from recent times.
Hi Paul. I listen to your talks perhaps 10 times a day, at least. I know much more now than I could learn since 1973 when I started listening to my stereo. After listening to you this much I am convinced that I should recap and also upgrade some of the components in the crossovers. A friend suggested that upgrading will make my speakers sound clean. What are clean sounding speakers? And what are all the components I could change in my crossovers? Thank you and best regards. Azhar Zaidi
totally agree had variable loudness on my Yamaha and Technics receivers worked wonders. Why aren't the audiophile company's per se' bringing it back? its not the same as Auduessey and the likes that put that val over the music.
that's what I love about my Magnepan planars. They sound best at low volumes, actually more natural sound stage when played a lower levels than a live performance would sound. And no need for the loudness amp feature that helps with cones and domes.
A good indication that you should isolate between apartments is if you can hear voices from the neighbour. Fix that. And you will be able to play music at reasonable levels at day and evening. ( in night we are not supposed to play music in apartements ).
Ages ago people understood that we need loudness function, tone controls or EQ to fix this exact issue and make music listening PLEASURABLE at low levels. Then came some absurd snake oil opinion that these controls somehow are unwanted as they "damage" the sound and even a bypass function can't be properly designed to avoid "damaging" the signal. Some products nowadays are designed with some care of this issue, but amazingly few. One reason is that 90% of audio engineering has moved to China and in China people listen to music that is mostly mid-range focused. Thus they don't actually realize this as a major problem and aren't raising the flag as audio engineers used to do. It's like a forgotten topic in audio engineering and that's a big bummer! I have some hope that Paul one morning will wake up after some dream realizing that loudness compensation (or EQ compensation for your treble loss due to aging or other reason) can easily be done in a DSP at the digital signal before the DAC and bypassing loudness is completely harmless when done such way...Paul save us...your Tesla car has DSP based loudness doing its magic, by the way...
@TB....Well, I agree with your start, but you lost me with the place of manufacture. Companies manufacture all over the world mostly without 'tone controls. Further, so many audio companies manufacturing in China aren't Chinese companies. They are American, British etc. It's not up to the manufacture what they produce! Btw a good example of the use of 'tone' controls (parametric eq, bass/treble), comes on board the RME adi-2 dac. That's German engineering for ya. Not to mention their gear stacks up to measurements, that are published by their engineers and have been further tested by others. Cheers man
nostro1001 Well, nowadays many mainstream audio products are engineered in southern China in Dongguan, Shenzhen, Huizhou, Guangzhou etc. including for well known brands highly focused on cost efficiency. Just because a brand is not chinese doesn’t mean the engineering is done outside China. In fact, lots of brands are licensed and in many cases what you find is the sales and marketing effort is the only effort outside China. Contract manufacturers nowadays also do much of the engineering and even product definition.
777 Trax I’m talking about music with mostly focus on vocals optimized to play on poor narrow band speakers and in small apartments with thin walls not allowing deep bass. People who don’t appreciate music with sub bass and details in the highs aren’t passionate about those things. Actually I’ve seen this issue with my own eyes endlessly working with quite a few audio engineering teams.
I don’t know if anybody’s mentioned but the Klipsch Heritage series speakers are known for their excellence at low level listing levels. Paul is right on with the rest though.
I have a bedside clock radio with a speaker that's probably 2 inches in diameter. And I've wondered what it would be like to have a loudspeaker with a 10 inch woofer in the same room, playing from the same source, with the volume the same for each, measured with a sound pressure level meter, and "A vs B" switch them back and forth. You can have the same frequency sounds, playing at the same level, but with a much bigger transducer moving a larger quantity of air, I would think would provide a "fuller" listening experience, even at low volumes. I think that's a sound argument for going as big as you can for your speakers and amplification SUITABLY for a given room size, even for low volume listening. Obviously some speakers work better at lower volumes than others, and some great speakers probably really only sing when played pretty loud. Like paring wine with food, I would like to see reviews of excellent COMBINATIONS of Room-Speaker-Amplification ensembles. Steve Gutenberg's Audiophiliac channel comes as close to doing that that I've seen. But then you could always just get some headphones.
Yes, it's just your hearing , and ours too . The ear's frequency response varies with volume level . And that's what Fletcher-Munson and Paul just said .
If you own accurate bookshelf speakers, and listen nearfield? An excellent way to raise up the bottom and high frequencies would be the following: 1.) BBE 282iR Desktop Sonic Maximizer with Unbalanced RCA. 2.) BBE 282iX Desktop Sonic Maximizer with Balanced 3-Pin XLR Connections The bass boost is a linear dynamic EQ. Everything sounds surprisingly cohesive and focused. With high quality bookshelf speakers, I find no need to use the high frequency processing. Very natural sounding that way.
Hey Paul I was out your way a little while back, before this whole covid19 thing, my best friend from the marine corpsis in Littleton and son is in Arvada,I wanted to take you up on your offer to stop by but I got outvoted and we ended up doing the Boulder beer walk instead, next time out I’ll make it a priority and won’t be out voted
🤔🧐 WHEN I’M DESIGNING/ADJUSTING MY SYSTEM, I ALWAYS AIM TO HAVE THE SOUND AS FLAT AS POSSIBLE AT THOSE LOWEST LEVELS. …THEN I JUST ALLOW THE BASS AND TREBLE TO GO BALLS TO THE WALL AS I ‘PUMP UP THE VOLUME, PUMP UP THE VOLUME, PUMP UP THE VOLUME, DANCE, DANCE’!!
Most components with "loudness" switches boost only the low end; a few do also boost highs, but in either case they don't often do it very well. I have heard good compensation from, maybe, two properly engineered models. Variable loudness controls, such as those found on some Yamaha products, seem to do much better. Using an equalizer works, but doing it right requires readjusting the curve for each different volume setting. I have mostly avoided using the loudness feature on the equipment I own because I find it usually boosts the bass too much. Of course, if there is a bass knob, one can turn it down to partially compensate for the error, but I would prefer that the loudness circuit be better designed to begin with.
one of the best things to do is reduce any noise outside the system, say a window is open, doorway. next to train your ears to listen by slowy over time turning the volume down. There will be a limit to turning it down but I found I can get mote outnofnmusic this way. Inuse nearfield listening and of course depends on the typ of music. good luck experimenting folks!
so speakers will make the differnents at low volume and even the amp .... high sensetivity speakers will worjk best for low volume even a good amp will make the differents . Great video
From my onkyo TX-DS797 manual: Late Night Cinema sound has a vast dynamic range; therefore, to hear the quieter sounds such as human conversations, they must be played back at larger volumes. When this parameter is set to “High” or “Low,” the dynamic range of the sound is narrowed down to allow you to easily hear minute sounds at low volumes. This function is especially useful if you wish to play a movie at low volumes during the nighttime. This can be set to either “Off” or “Low,” or “High.” When this parameter is set to High or Low, the dynamic range of the sound is narrowed down to allow you to easily hear minute sounds at low volume.
Apartment living = A pair of headphones or sitting close to a pair of studio monitors that are at ear level. Anything else requires having every neighbor that might hear your music being inside your apartment. Successfully invite all your neighbors before throwing a party. The person not at your party is the one who is going to call your landlord or the police.
Yamaha used to have a variable loudness control, not simply on/off, so you could fine-tune the sound to your liking and it would follow the volume control on a curve.
Being an apartment dweller, I know this all too well. The simple and most obvious answer is, a good pair of headphones. Lets face it, most music sounds better thru headphones anyways. You can also pick up things on a track you might not have heard otherwise.
I've often noted that the giant speakers in PA systems deliver dynamic, punchy sound with really great depth even at super low volumes. They stop me in my tracks in my local guitar store. I've always thought this had to do with the efficiency of those big PA speakers, but have never really been sure. It stands to reason that my Sonos Faber home hifi bookshelf speakers won't be as dynamic at low volumes because their sensitivity is something like 86dB. It just takes more juice to get them going. I don't know. Maybe Paul can comment.
Most reasonable Bluetooth speakers do this EQ adjustment via the inbuilt digital signal processor (DSP). At full volume they are relatively flat EQ, but at each digital volume step, they change the EQ to suit that volume. So at low volume they don't sound too different to high volume in terms of perceived frequency range. They may also compress the dynamic range to help with that as well.
