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How To Make Logo Background Transparent in Photoshop! 

Photoshop Training Channel
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Make logo backgrounds transparent in just seconds with Photoshop! This simple technique will allow you to make your white background transparent with just a few clicks.
I hope that you enjoy this tutorial! Don't forget to Like and Subscribe!
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📘 INDEX - Remove White Background From Any Logo!
00:00 - Introduction
00:14 - Analyze Channels
00:35 - Duplicate Channel
00:47 - Apply Image To Make Logo Darker
01:23 - Make Channel Into a Layer Mask
01:59 - White Outline Explained
02:19 - Make a Solid Color Fill for black areas
02:37 - Make Solid Color Fill for orange areas
02:59 - Remove unwanted areas from Solid Color Fill layers
04:17 - Export Logo with a Transparent Background
04:48 - Final Thoughts
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How To make a Background White in Photoshop
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● Photoshop video tutorials by Jesus Ramirez
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15 авг 2024

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Комментарии : 183   
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel Год назад
Check out my *NEW PODCAST* Today's Creator ➡ www.youtube.com/@TodaysCreatorPod
@welovesummernz
@welovesummernz 2 года назад
In 2021 you'd think by now there would be a simpler way just to remove white from an image! Channels work for me, great stuff as always :)
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Sometimes the old methods work best 🤷
@johnharbinger4637
@johnharbinger4637 2 года назад
@@PhotoshopTrainingChannel lmao no, you can simply this method. Selection like you did from beginning from the channels section, then cut and past on new layer, delete bottom layer, save as png. All done🥳 I do this all the time. If you want crisper edges just contract selection invert selection and clear. ✌peace.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
John, cutting and pasting to a new layer is the same as masking the original. Probably better since you don't delete anything. If you accidentally missed something in the selection processes you would be in trouble if you delete the original layer. Contacting the selection would probably damage logos with smaller fine detail or gradients. If your method works for you and your projects, then great! I just chose to show something that would work for most logos in most circumstances.
@stevecoulthard8060
@stevecoulthard8060 2 года назад
Colour range! Time is money if you make your living out of this!
@TerranigmaQuintet
@TerranigmaQuintet Месяц назад
Just use Blend If, easy as pie.
@garyclement2888
@garyclement2888 Год назад
Very good. You are a good teacher and seems to cover every step so I can understand - that's all most people need. Great job.
@StreetStories-ca
@StreetStories-ca Год назад
Finally, someone who gets to the point and is competent. Wanting more!
@cmillerx41
@cmillerx41 2 года назад
This is so much more complicated then it should be.
@zappy_ne
@zappy_ne Год назад
Than*
@rowelle
@rowelle 9 месяцев назад
Yeah. Way too many steps. This was annoying.
@acasualcritic8759
@acasualcritic8759 2 года назад
It's been a while but I believe you can just save it as a PNG with Transparency. Maybe use the Magic Wand Tool to clear the white background before hand. I'd just make sure to create the design/logo using the pen tool or free-form pen tool to create vector based graphics If you don't have Ai. Of course, ideally, I prefer to use Ai (Illustrator) for logos, etc., so to scale to whatever size within Ai then save in the above file format mentioned for quick use for an ad or whatever. There's typically more than one way to do things in Adobe apps, so I say do which ever works for you. Interesting video still. :)
@afpwebworks
@afpwebworks 2 года назад
Brillliant! Only 547 steps I should be able to remember all that.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
It's really 5 steps... 1. Find the channel with most contrast and duplicate it. 2. On Apply Image set to Multiply (repeat this step if need be) 3. Load Channel duplicate as a selection 4. Apply it as a Mask. 5. If you have white edges, then load mask as a selection and create Solid Fills.
@MelloBelloPhotoStudio
@MelloBelloPhotoStudio 2 месяца назад
For the first time i came across someone is making sense on this subject
@ForgottenDetails
@ForgottenDetails Год назад
Bless you! I've been trying many, many channels with various methods but none worked. I finally found the answer here! Soo cool.
@donhendricks3190
@donhendricks3190 2 года назад
I'm pretty sure that my editing skills improvements can all be traced back to your tutorials! Thanks so much!
@McMillanProfessionals
@McMillanProfessionals 2 года назад
Thank you so much for this! This is a subject I have been needing help with recently with my new clients. I love this channel!
@MONASH-GO
@MONASH-GO 10 месяцев назад
You just gained a subscriber, thank you so much💃💃💃💃💃💃
@mvs6380
@mvs6380 2 года назад
I really love being reminded of the concept of using channels to help with selection. Back in 2003 I took a photography class which most of the class was heavily reliant on photoshop and our teacher introduced using channels for better selection, and better color correction (the auto stuff we didn’t have before). Over the years I forgot about this since I don’t use PS too much. Great tutorial to remind me of how important channels window is and it’s capabilities. Thank you for this tutorial.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome! At the end of the day, channels are selections. Might as well start with them when possible.
@SingleHook
@SingleHook 4 месяца назад
Thank you so much for your lesson Sir..
@ahmetturk3858
@ahmetturk3858 2 года назад
Thank you very much sir. Greetings from Turkey.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, Ahmet!
@MaxGamerFun
@MaxGamerFun 2 года назад
What you could’ve done is just select the magic eraser and click on the white part of the image. If that doesn’t work, then just select the logo part of the image by using object selection or something then set an overlay to make it black, then use the magic eraser again.
@MaxGamerFun
@MaxGamerFun 2 года назад
And If there are white edges on the picture just do a stroke and set the opacity to 0 and the thing to Inside and increase the size until the white edges are gone
@One.Zero.One101
@One.Zero.One101 Год назад
Oh my God you are a GENIUS!!!!!. That was quick and easy. Although I didn't understand your second comment. What do you mean by "Just do a stroke" and "The thing to Inside and increase the size"?
@haroonakram6862
@haroonakram6862 2 года назад
the file as png is the most helpful tip!
@Mozonami
@Mozonami 2 года назад
Evan tiktok your are my role model keep Going I'll love you
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Thank you!
@spider853
@spider853 2 года назад
Select -> Color range, white, mask, in case of fringing modify mask, shrink edges, done. The channel method and duplicate rebuild seems overkill, also it expands the logo which might be undesirable
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
A couple points, Adrian. Could Color Range work in this specific case? Probably. However, I decided to show a technique that would work in more situations than this specific one. People watching will not have this same exact problem. In my opinion, Color Range creates more jagged and white edges. Especially in logos with more intricate detail or gradients. You mentioned that using the channel method "expands the logo" and could be undesirable. I would argue that shrinking the edges causes more of an undesirable change. Again, especially in logos with a lot of fine details or gradients. Thanks for your comment!
@spider853
@spider853 2 года назад
@@PhotoshopTrainingChannel Hey thanks for the reply, but there is one issue with channels too, as in this video the example had all color ranges, people might get logos with flat red, green or blue colors and they might get confused as they can't find a channel that represent the full logo, so I guess each technique has their own place. Anyway big fan of your channel, just felt a bit odd watching all these steps in this video 👍
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Definitely! Thank you for commenting!
@nicoletteklopfer8458
@nicoletteklopfer8458 Год назад
This was VERY helpful, thank you so much!
@MajorGamePC
@MajorGamePC 2 года назад
Not like but Love these series, Thank you soO0o much for all these lessons. On my test the IMAGE/Apply Image.. was greyed out and it was because I changed the background copy (the image) to a smart object
@ChrisCabe
@ChrisCabe Год назад
This is excellent! Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for sharing!
@FunDumb
@FunDumb 2 года назад
Fringing has me on the fritz nearly every time. I'd rather just open this image in illustrator and trace it. Expand my selection and just use a vector.
@blacklightdrew
@blacklightdrew 2 года назад
Good point also the pen tool could be used in Photoshop since the logo has a hard edge. Another thing is the graphic designer should be exporting the logo that they made in Illustrator as a raster format with transparency such as a PNG to begin with.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
If you can get better results in another app, then great! Why not?
@Agrus_Kadeen
@Agrus_Kadeen 2 года назад
Why not: add alpha channel > magic wand each white part > delete the selected white parts?
@IrrationalGamer
@IrrationalGamer 2 года назад
Explain in details please?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Magic Wand could work in some cases. But generally speaking, it gives you more jagged edges. Also, if the logo has a gradient it will not capture it correctly. This method gives you better edges and will also keep a gradient in a logo.
@craigcompoliphotography1235
@craigcompoliphotography1235 7 месяцев назад
Great video!
@llmasiky
@llmasiky Год назад
thank you AGAIN!!! you are the MAN- Hassan
@fl0pes
@fl0pes 2 года назад
In this logo, using blend if - current layer’s slider would work very fast, right??
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
In this logo, it could definitely work. It always depends
@jaimee.campuzanot.2702
@jaimee.campuzanot.2702 2 года назад
Thank you Jesús, I hope you are better!!!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Thank you, Jaime! Much better!
@theafricanpetrolhead
@theafricanpetrolhead 2 года назад
There's no option for "merged" on my side. It shows "background" only... Am I missing something?
@deathrain2296
@deathrain2296 3 месяца назад
You have to make a new layer from the beginning
@chalam777
@chalam777 2 года назад
Wow, excellent👏
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Thank you, SIMHAM!
@mikkelsenconsulting743
@mikkelsenconsulting743 2 года назад
This was such a great tutorial. It was clear and easy to follow. You saved me big time! Mahalo!
@HighEndRetouch1
@HighEndRetouch1 2 года назад
Great stuff as always ❤️❤️🔥🔥
@discoverwithxander7509
@discoverwithxander7509 2 года назад
thank you so much i learn a lot from your each video please keep it
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, Xander!
@eventsvdeographytelceanmihai
@eventsvdeographytelceanmihai 2 года назад
Great Job!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Thank you, Art FxDesigner!
@rgarlinyc
@rgarlinyc 2 года назад
Aha, I see - thanks JR!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, R Garlin!
@bedd444
@bedd444 11 месяцев назад
Can't believe we are in 2023 and Still have to go through all that the remove a black or White background.
@chinmayasinghrawat4622
@chinmayasinghrawat4622 2 года назад
This was to the point and simplistic. Thanks!
@CharlonClarke
@CharlonClarke 2 года назад
definitely a life saver, thank you!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome!
@NinoKurdiani
@NinoKurdiani 9 месяцев назад
Thank you
@justfollowme3372
@justfollowme3372 2 года назад
You are a legend bro
@red122
@red122 2 года назад
A vwey very very helpful video
@emanjewels7588
@emanjewels7588 Год назад
Great methods. Thanks Can you please kindly show How can i remove the Logo white backgrounds. Thanks
@LasVegasMagicFriends
@LasVegasMagicFriends 9 месяцев назад
Thank You!
@JeffGloverArts
@JeffGloverArts 2 года назад
Thank you! I always have that fringing problem! This helps!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, Jeff!
@PharaohFontain
@PharaohFontain 5 месяцев назад
Hello I dont see a "merge" option on the apply image panel, what I see is "Background"
@deathrain2296
@deathrain2296 3 месяца назад
You have to make a new layer from the beginning
@Arifkhan786
@Arifkhan786 2 года назад
Thank you so much it really helped me
@jorgem18
@jorgem18 2 года назад
Thank you Jesus... 🤔, Jesús lol'. ..'Channels ' are an often overlooked aspect of PS but longer after seeing today's very useful & insightful tutorial... ¡Gracias!
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, Jorge!
@MySpace662
@MySpace662 2 года назад
A very good tip
@kloworseipiangin
@kloworseipiangin 2 года назад
Nice video.👍❤
@aayanaayan1013
@aayanaayan1013 2 года назад
Amazing❤
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Thank you, Aayan!
@karimahmadi115
@karimahmadi115 2 года назад
An excellent tutorial full of interesting points🏅🏅👍
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Glad you think so!
@TBKGOLDY
@TBKGOLDY 2 года назад
How about Select, color range, and select white and mask? Does wonders for me.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
In this specific case it might work just fine. The channels method would definitely work best with logos with more intricate detail and gradients.
@cunhabom
@cunhabom 2 года назад
Phew, I thought I was turned down to be part of your facebook because of my skin color. It's been three years since your youtube channel has been useful to me, as a subscriber to the channel, which I thought could be part of your Facebook community as well. only no, I was refused.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Feel free to contact me through my website. I don't know why the mods refused you. We can sort it out. Thank you!
@swatikothari4257
@swatikothari4257 Год назад
I have created this PSD file but How can I save this transparent background in photoshop cs5
@goldenfalcon5130
@goldenfalcon5130 2 года назад
Amazing video I really like it
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
I'm glad you like it
@IrrationalGamer
@IrrationalGamer 2 года назад
Is this a vector?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
No. The original image was a jpg and the result is still pixels
@IrrationalGamer
@IrrationalGamer 2 года назад
@@PhotoshopTrainingChannel but it can be exported to svg or eps right?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You could save them that way. But they would not be vectors. You would need to trace it with vectors if that's what you wanted
@KenToney
@KenToney 2 года назад
Yea this is more than I expected but the best way
@Tashosugar18
@Tashosugar18 6 месяцев назад
Thak you so much.
@amazingsoftwaretutorial4103
@amazingsoftwaretutorial4103 2 года назад
😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍😍amazing tutorial
@1917finches
@1917finches 6 месяцев назад
How about in gradient logos?
@HayioEzung
@HayioEzung 2 месяца назад
If the background is black?
@mostafasoofy2594
@mostafasoofy2594 2 года назад
Great, thanks
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You are welcome!
@jackie102005
@jackie102005 Год назад
I wish you would slow down a bit when I am looking at what I need to select.
@sinoreal7655
@sinoreal7655 Год назад
Your export options differs from mine why ?
@MrrvTV-ix5gn
@MrrvTV-ix5gn 2 года назад
To simplify.... use magicwand then select the white, then right click, then select similar then delete... done
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Magic wand gets you more jagged edges. And you have to set the Tolerance appropriately. And by just deleting your probably going to get white edges. But if it works for you, no problem.
@Avery123Connor
@Avery123Connor День назад
i cant press on my channels
@NarendraSingh-oi1dd
@NarendraSingh-oi1dd 2 года назад
How to remove watermark on face images?
@blueshineindia
@blueshineindia 2 года назад
I need a make video simple way to remove the background
@curtismiller-robus486
@curtismiller-robus486 2 года назад
Ok, so I have used this video 3 times for 3 different logos I needed to use for a flyer. Although I did manage to end up with a transparent logo each time, the steps are not identical. They don't match up to what he's doing in the video. For example, I have to load my image to work with, then I have to create a new layer or I can't merge them with "apply image". He seems to merge them no problem without doing that. Merge is not an option unless I do this. Secondly, I can not Alt+backspace - I get "can not fill because the target layer is hidden" every time. Other steps also don't seem to work the same as his - I have identical program system (using PS from the cloud) but they just don't match up. Maybe it's my settings? Would love feedback!
@Akshay-pe4fp
@Akshay-pe4fp Год назад
I cant submit logo showing file doesn't exist
@shiloc009
@shiloc009 Год назад
My Layers dropbox in the Apply Image window does not give me the option for "Merged", Just "Background"
@imheretonukedukes
@imheretonukedukes 2 года назад
Logos where white is not a key color you could easily remove the white bg from the blend if menu.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Yeah, blend if could work in a situation like this
@sfrancfrancnrm8640
@sfrancfrancnrm8640 2 года назад
Most of the arguments are about dealing with the logo dealt here, the point they are missing is to learn the right techniques.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Basically all techniques described could work under the right circumstances (even this example). I chose to explain a technique that would work in examples with more intricate detail or gradients.
@jessiegibson9023
@jessiegibson9023 2 года назад
Thanks
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
You're welcome, Jessie!
@alexsattler7589
@alexsattler7589 Год назад
When I remove a channel my whole image becomes a different color it doesn’t change my contrast. What do I do then?
@friendsofthebotanicgardens5933
@friendsofthebotanicgardens5933 2 года назад
what if merged isn't an option? it's just saying background for me
@deathrain2296
@deathrain2296 3 месяца назад
You have to make a new layer from the beginning
@dutmala
@dutmala 2 года назад
If you gonna do something with a logo it should be a vector, and if not than you should make it one, i know this is just an example but vectors are in my opinion a better way to work
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
They are. In some cases, all you need is just a transparent background. Doing this would be far less time-consuming than recreating (tracing) a vector.
@dutmala
@dutmala 2 года назад
@@PhotoshopTrainingChannel that's true, but for an real logo rarely the case, in that case the tracing is worth the effort, because it can safe alot of work in the future 😉
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
If your client is paying you to do it, then definitely! Trace away!
@blueshineindia
@blueshineindia 2 года назад
Also, I need some images for practice those you are doing
@wentviral439
@wentviral439 2 года назад
I just use a backgroud eraser the defringe to one pixel done
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
The Background Eraser Tool will most likely give you edges that are more jagged. In logos with more intricate detail and gradients the BG Eraser would have a lot of difficulties.
@mariamriaz1695
@mariamriaz1695 2 года назад
Sir it's a request.... please make the video about after the removal of image background, the size of image remains same...like 10 MB image size remains 10 MB after removal of background....thank you..... please, please, please sir
@bluelotusluv
@bluelotusluv 2 года назад
Hi, I'm trying to do this with a black logo/white background but the black text remains in the channels color (Blue or Red). I am able to remove the background but the text is no longer black :/
@blueshineindia
@blueshineindia 2 года назад
please make a video with some more logo
@its.imran.
@its.imran. 2 года назад
Why magic wand and Color range tool have in PS😶🙄
@jc2409
@jc2409 2 года назад
Hi Jesus, i bought one of your composition training but i cant open on my mac. Any ideas?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Message me through my website!
@jc2409
@jc2409 2 года назад
@@PhotoshopTrainingChannel i did. Will waiting for your response. Thanks
@sfrancfrancnrm8640
@sfrancfrancnrm8640 2 года назад
The downloading link of logo worked here is not given, kindly add it. Tks.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Fixed the logo link: photoshoptrainingchannel.com/how-to-make-logo-background-transparent-in-photoshop/
@amanitamuscaria5863
@amanitamuscaria5863 Год назад
2:00 Yes, yes we are, goodbye and thank you.
@71-shivansh37
@71-shivansh37 2 года назад
Easy way 1. Select 2. colour range 3. Tap on white colour then ok 4. Go to edit and clear Best and easy way.
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
I do know about "best"...maybe "easy." The method you describe might work on this image. but I would argue you would get more jagged edges. Also, in a logo with gradient this method definitely wouldn't work. Also, this method doesn't address the white outlines you would most likely get.
@sevenseven31
@sevenseven31 2 года назад
i think is not a good example to see the power of this feature and you make it more complex
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
What would be a better example in your opinion?
@sevenseven31
@sevenseven31 2 года назад
I saw this method before in older version of photoshop it using to cut a hair from the difficult background selection, but now you can use select subject in the latest version of Photoshop and your work is done
@johnnyg2983
@johnnyg2983 Год назад
It's like your speaking a foreign language
@ljdelacruz2985
@ljdelacruz2985 Год назад
its complicated because this is only 2 colors and no circle outside the main logo
@MissLisaBabyx
@MissLisaBabyx 2 года назад
I learned this my self years ago in gimp haha
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
👍🙂 As long as you learn!
@emanjewels7588
@emanjewels7588 Год назад
in photoshop 7.0
@pieciek
@pieciek 2 года назад
Wand and eraser or background eraser is faster ;)
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
"Faster" maybe. But not better. The edges with most of those tools would be much more jagged and it will not capture logos with gradients properly. This method will give you better edges and capture gradients.
@Hektor1020
@Hektor1020 2 года назад
Magic erase tool--------sample from white----------BG-------click-------done...... Ty...
@bySterling
@bySterling 2 года назад
Oh my gosh the one time I don’t agree w our beloved Jesus, just Select eye dropper white Delete, Done Curious why our PS super hero bro prefers such crazy complex way to do?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
What you describe will probably give you more jagged edges and definitely more fringing. I chose to show a technique that would work with more than just this logo. If you had a logo with a lot of intricate fine detail or gradients that fade to transparent the Magic Want / Eyedropper wouldn't do that good of a job. Also, deleting is usually something you don't want to do. If you later on realize you accidentally missed a piece of the logo during the selection process you would have a difficult time bringing it back. Thanks for the comment, TheWebStylist!
@interestingvideosmail5033
@interestingvideosmail5033 2 года назад
Just magic erase the white thing and save it as PNG
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
Magic erase doesn't work well with gradients or intricate details
@wedoplayer
@wedoplayer 2 года назад
Why not: select "Color Range"? Isn't that 3000 times easier?
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel
@PhotoshopTrainingChannel 2 года назад
"Easier" maybe. But not better. It will leave you with more jagged edges, and if the logo has a gradient then it would look much worse. Using this method will give you sharper edges and allow you to create gradients if need be
@inthetrencheswithcas1762
@inthetrencheswithcas1762 2 года назад
I am now even more confused
@Shiomusic
@Shiomusic 5 месяцев назад
mate i am fucking confused as fuck i have more than one color any link where there is more than one i dont get anything???
@g41thomas
@g41thomas 2 года назад
your videos are good but you are talking way too fast and also in the end it get impossible to follow!
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