@@clev7989Cuz Miles Davis' music was also deranged. Look at his Album Aura for example. Most normal listeners would be shocked at how anyone would call that music.
the thought of jazz fans assaulting a saxophonist backstage for improvising jazz is so funny. i imagine them hitting him with bags and screaming "YOU ARE NOT PLAYING IT PROPERLY"
Honestly most of us would dig it if you’re doing it right. Making everything a sus 4 was the new hot shit for jazz in the 60’s. Even now all that pentatonic language is still hip and exciting. Only ones pissed would be the guys who couldn’t hang or old cats that are sick of hearing it.
@@jonathanveenker6981 I just saw a Rick Beato video where he mentioned talking to Keith Jarrett about that. I don't know theory, so it's meaningless to me… 🤷🏿♀️
It's correct when it's scat music...but he tried to play note scat, which does not work and pretty much just destroys what Jazz is, since it doesn't follow swing tempo
@@cinnastag I'm confused - what does swing tempo have to do with the notes being played? Since when is Jazz solely confined by that anyways? Are we really saying what Coleman did didn't work in 2023 lmao
As a metalhead, I point to jazz as an earlier example of what happened to metal. 1) New style of music, seen as "too outrageous, uncivilized, wild, grating on the ears" to be taken seriously. 2) Young kids pursue it despite the social backlash, and come to love it for its underground vibe, acquired taste, and rebellious nature. 3) Over time it becomes more normal to hear, it gets less hate and more people start to show up, often playing it way better than the people early to the scene. 4) New people start playing it freely, not as anything rebellious or like they're persecuted for it, but just for a pure love of its sound, unlike the first people who got into it. 5) Old fans resent the new fans for acting like all of the old stigmas don't matter anymore, cause the OGs have their identity in the music tied with its hostile social reception it originally had. So they make up bs criteria and nitpick any new music that doesn't sound exactly like their 30 year old records to call it "not real jazz/metal", and anything that does sound like said records is a copycat and unoriginal. Seriously, the phrase "I don't like this new stuff, cause this band is too young" is a legitimate reason to gatekeep shit that hits way harder than anything the old fucks who say that had when they were green to the scene. A genre literally defined by playing music that breaks the rules all of a sudden has to have rules to keep it pure apparently, as if it being a "dirty" kind of music isn't what made it special in the first place. All you hip hop fans need to watch out. Your genre's even fresher than metal but it's getting whitewashed and sterilized to shit too. I just hope they don't start creating metal programs in colleges like they did jazz, but even metal screams are getting rigorously studied now and becoming a more formal skill. Trial and error DIY vocals are what make every screamer sound really unique, and makes a voice feel personal and not like a singer who just took a bunch of voice lessons and had a marketing team write lyrics. They took jazz and forced it into a formalized box of do's and don'ts, and now the whole fanbase is critical of anyone who plays it. There's still a lot of metal fans that just happily vibe with whatever they hear, and it needs to stay that way. Man I hate gatekeepers. All they do is ruin something good.
Very well put. This can apply to trends outside of music too. I.e. fashion, film, comics, video games, etc. Just look at the decline of the arcade racing video game subgenre.
If you want to piss jazz fans off, just call basic stuff brilliant. They HATE it 😊 EDIT: the amount of people taking my comments way too seriously is amazing :D
Basic as in count basie/early swing stuff, or basic as in kenny Gorelick? There is a big difference. I've never met a jazz musician worth anything that doesn't think basie or ben webster or anyone like that isn't brilliant.
@@nicholaswise5818 Nah, man, nah. I'm talking about 4/4 with the I-V-vi-IV progression and a generic verse/chous type structure. Put a jazz snob and a Swifty in a room together and there will be blood 😄
Eh I think everyone goes through some sort of "my thing is the best thing! I hate that other stuff!" phase, whether it's music, art, literature, food, sports, or whatever else. While it can be a pain to deal with snobs of any stripe, most people manage to grow out of it eventually.
@@davidbaise5137if there ever is a space ship leaving the Earth for another planet, and one of the conditions for being accepted aboard is you can bring only ONE album with you, the album I'd bring is Bitches Brew.
Back in '69, I used to play the B side of Cold Turkey (Don't Worry Kyoko) @ 16rpm, pretending it was a cow, slowly dying. I shortly came to fully appreciate it after getting into Captain Beefheart and (much later) Public Image Limited. Ornett's always been in that same niche for me...
He has plenty of room to talk. Also, the context came from a Downbeat interview in the 1960s. Contextually, Miles didn't listen to music in his genre. By 1968, his last blindfold test, the year which he began to regularly record utilizing the Fender Rhodes and Fender bass, he was observed to only having records by The Byrds, Dionne Warwick, James Brown, Fifth Dimension, Tony Bennett and Aretha Franklin. Miles had lost interest in anything that was considered to be called "jazz".
@@robertlepper5460 not necessarily true. Yes, he wanted to make money, the music he was making particularly between 1969 and 1970 leaned towards the "whiter" rock audience, however, this shifted in 1971, as he was after "blacker" audience, shifting towards funkier music. Ultimately, his music, and release of his albums during 1969 to 1974 didn't keep up with what he was doing during live performances, which left his audiences 'lost'
As a saxophonist and all-around musician, I have a lot of respect for the role that Coleman played in the advancement of the art form - he played a very similar role to what Schoenberg and Charles Ives were for the early 20th century classical music sphere. At the same time, I have never found enjoyment in any recording of his that I've EVER forced myself to listen to. If people had actually wanted to listen to that shit, he'd be getting imitated a hell of a lot more today. People practice playing like Bird, Trane, Brecker, Potter, Redman, Washington, etc. because it's coherent. Coleman makes Coltrane's peak spirituality days comparatively feel like a sunny walk in the park.
So why do you feel respect, if you don't like it? Is change and "advancement" a goal in itself, regardless of that it is? Schönbergs music was enjoyable, while this guy was annoying. That's not similar :)
@@herrbonk3635To you he is annoying, I LOVE his music. And Schoenberg's. Listen to "what reason could I give" it's so weird yet really touching and emotional. How does it even work?? Most of his other stuff (not the 80's harmelodic funk) feels really heavy and chaotic to me, which are elements I enjoy in music. It feels like the equivalent of Grindcore in Jazz.
In any musical genre, Jazz let’s say, you occasionally need someone to come in and punch everybody in the face. Miles Davis didn’t change the tone, it was Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane. To paraphrase Flying Lotus, they disrupted the flavor.
he played a plastic pakistani-import saxophone on purpose because of how dry and nasal and piercing the tone was. you know guys who had been perfecting their pure, warm, mellow brass and reed tones for the last 40 years had bloody murder in their ears when he hit them upside the head with that
i think guys like ornette were simply outgrowths/reactions to the rigid structures and tonalities of bebop. ornette could play bebop, but he chose to follow his ears, and i'm certainly thankful for it!
traditional (prewar) jazz was the buttoned-up formal stuff, bebop was looser and more improvisational-it's what the cats would play against each other late into the night after the evening gigs at birdland. eventually you got thelonius monk whose melodic style came from attempting to play "the notes between the keys" and eventually coleman found a way to get there
I've only dipped my toes into the jazz world over the decades, with hard rock, folk, and blues being my primary loves, but Coleman was always a standout in jazz for me. It's odd hearing that he wasn't as appreciated as I would have thought he deserved during his time.
“Lonely Woman” is one of my favorite pieces. Powerful and wide in its message. Confusing and complex as the concept. Radical avant-garde artist for sure
Hell yes! Lonely Woman is AS important as any other great jazz composition. Even the Modern Jazz Quartet played it( pinnacle of straight jazz that they were) and named a whole lp after it. Pat Metheny has a gorgeous version on one of his earlier lps.. i wanna say Rejoicing( w Charlie Haden n Billy Higgins).. people are off their friggin’ but if they don’t recognize Ornette as a great composer. He’s not Duke Ellington.. he’s Ornette friggin’ Coleman! and if he only wrote “ Lonely Woman” it would be enough to cement his reputation in jazz for all time, imho. Thank you! Good call.
When I think of jazz, his sound is precisely what I think of first. He defines the genre for me and a lot of other people. That's styling on the haters at an ETERNAL level.
Eventually is the at pinnacle of Free Jazz. Its super fast paced and you can hear coherence in the playing and can vibe out and marvel at the virtuosity and theres not too many cooks in the kitchen. Large ensemble free jazz can be quite difficult.
Coleman swung the door wide open for avant gaurde musicians across all mainstream music. It's likely we would never have had Frank Zappa or Captain Beefheart without him. Legend!
Ask it to me. It was trained who was such a well-established musician to play changes. Is that open the door up towards free jazz and then retrospect that would be due to Miles Davis?
You would think a genre that has a heavy focus on improvisation and experimentation would yield fans who would be interested in experimental music, but I guess not. You would think jazz fans would love the creativity and off the wall aspect of experimental jazz music.
This is exactly what i hear when i think of jazz music. Crazy to think his style that was so outrageous at the time has shaped and defined the genre since
@@drmodestoesq you think it's ok to assault a guy because you don't like his music ? Although I'm an atheist, I'm pretty sure no God would say that's a good thing
@@drmodestoesq LOL the ornette haters are still alive. just like the shit he said in the video, simple minded people like you not understanding ornette and getting this mad about it just solidifies his art
@@HonestSaxSound-unEdited-excuse me for my poor English, but stop saying nonsense, please. Even in this kind of music there is beauty, emotion. This is art.
Took my mother to see Kenny G for her birthday a few years ago, and I was blown away by how much of a student of jazz he is. Yeah, his smooth jazz from the 80s and 90s is polarizing, it he did a rendition of Naima did Coltrane justice. The dude has chops.
For a whole genre and movement and lifestyle supposedly devoted to improvisation and free form, you will never find a bigger bunch of gatekeeping snobs than jazz people
I don’t think that’s what jazz is. I think it’s more nuanced than that. A lot of it is about building on different structures in different ways. I think Coleman sounds like ass, but maybe that’s bc I don’t know what he’s building on. I don’t think anybody knew what he was building on back then, which was probably part of why he was relieved poorly.
If you want to piss off jazz fans, tell them KennyG is the greatest sax player and jazz composer of all time. Actually it won't piss them off, they will just think you must have been dropped on your head when you were a child
love that thing when theres a musician few casual music listeners know about and all contemporary musicians hated but they basically did a beloved genre 15-20 years before its time. same w visual art and literature too.
You have a point considering that the seatbelts’ motto was that listeners would need a seatbelt when listening to their interpretation of the bebop genre because they’d fall out of their seat… and I guess the people who attended Coleman’s concerts *did* fall out of their seat out of shock from how different it was in a way too lol
@@8523wsxc Who knows. Perhaps without that selfishness he wouldn't have developed into the musician he did, and we wouldn't have his music to listen to. The world is too complex for anyone to make blanket statements like that.
@@pwhqngl0evzeg7z37 Music is the result of social human interactions. The lonesome musical genius is a fairy tale perpetuated by people who found success.
The real fastest way to piss off a jazz fan is to mention that any piece of jazz resembles the music of the Persona games series. To be fair this is a justified response given how many "Person who only jazz they ever heard was Persona music" type of comments you see
May be but I think it's just his style of playing was too 'crazy' for his time to the point people thought he was playing nonsense or even taking the piss. Like imagine someone playing metalcore in the 50's, they'd think they're just making noise to piss off the audience and they'd get assaulted if audience paid good money or they can't listen to the rest of the band because of the noise
Jazz should be seen on equal footing as classical music. We need not go into the history of racial inequality why this is so, but black Americans completely deconstructed European musical theory and made something as compelling and sophisticated
Seen as equal in the eyes of who?? What SPECIFIC individual person or institution views classical as better than jazz because of racism? i feel like you're just making a claim based off of an assumption you have
Sorry bud, if we're talking about sophicticated music theory, nothing beats classical music. Jazz does not cone anywhere near the mindbending insanity of composers like Iannis Xenakis and Milton Babbitt.
The thing is Coleman was ahead of its time. His improvising skills were AWESOME. Some ppl may think he was just playing gibberish but dude... I wanna hear em try playing like him...
Funny they thought this was too much when. Coltrane would years later release one of the craziest, most genre breaking albums ever with Interstellar Space. It sounds pretentious but to understand the genius of that record weirdly takes someone proficient at sax or jazz in general to see the beauty within the so called cacophony. One of my favorite records, though I won’t lie it’s not the one I put on the most when I’m relaxing ahaha