How Watchmen Ruined Superhero Comics 

Watchmen showed the world what a comic could be, and everyone wishes to remake it, missing the point of the story.

Great vid. Even when I disagree with you I end up liking your videos out of respect for your intellectual honesty

Breaking down without building back up is just vandalism.

So Watchmen didn't ruin comics. Bad writers trying to copy Watchmen in a format that doesn't work with it's style of story telling ruined comics.

Yeah, I have to agree with you. When every comic is a deconstruction, it loses all of its meaning.

Another aspect to Watchmen is that they are deconstructing the comic book genre itself. For instance, the multiple “camera angles” where the major and minor details are maintained to perfection. I still haven’t seen another book that did this as well as Gibbons in Watchmen.

Watchmen was the exception that proved the rule. Superheroes are inherently required to be the pinnacle of aspiration. If this rule is not met, there is nothing but misery. If a character is deconstructed, there should be a following reconstruction to update the character to more current aspirations. Current writers fail at reconstruction, because they do not understand aspiration. Only representation. Therefore melancholy and mundane as the tales mirror the misery of their real life.

As much as I love Watchmen... it did and you’re right.

From what I understand, the whole point to _Watchmen_ was that Alan Moore noticed a worrying trend in the super hero comics at the time, which were become more and more realistic and grounded, and Moore wanted to show how ridiculous such a notion of Superheroes in the real world was by taking it to its logical extreme. In other words, the _Watchmen_ comic was intending to *end* that unfortunate pattern by definitively showing how bleak and nihilistic it would all be (and the total antithesis of what superhero comics _should_ be), so that things could get back to being a fun and imaginative escapist medium. It was _not_ intended to be taken as a jumping off point for a tirade of imitators. Talk about missing the point.

Nice video. Watchmen didn't ruin comics. The copycats who didn't understand what it was about is what ruined comics. They emulated the bleakness without depth. They tried to drive the deconstruction Porsche without a driver's license, and they predictably crashed and burned the industry.

I disagree with the idea that Watchmen shows us what heroes would be like if they were real. It only shows one man with an actual moral code, and makes him a psychopath. Moore fundamentally does not believe in people. Which is why he's OK with Ozymandeus's plan. Super heroes aren't heroes because of their powers, but because of their moral code. I see plenty of people every day who would not compromise on principles.

So, does this mean that today's comic creators are like Scar from FMA? Feeling justified in their destructive rage? Not understanding the "reconstructive" part of the formula?

ah, Cyclops, he was a good character once, then people started copying Alan Moore.

What Watchmen inspired was a sea of hacks and cynicism in the industry.

I gotta say I don't think it's just Watchmen to be blamed, I think Dark Knight Returns can share in the blame a bit too and maybe the Killing Joke.

Instead of trying to copy Watchmen, comic writers need to find their own story and their own narrative. The problem with comics over the last 30 years is that almost every western writer is trying to either copy Watchmen or Dark Knight returns. As a writer I'd rather create a story with my fingerprint and commentary on heroes and heroism rather than try to copy the work of another writer. Hated Identity Crisis and Civil War. It's a story that led to the complete decline of the DC Universe because it compromises the ideals and values that DC Superheroes represented. If I were editor in Chief at DC or Marvel Identity Crisis and Civil War wee two stories that would have never gone to print. Both stories turn superheroes into super villains. Both Civil War and Identity Crisis sucked the fun out of comic books, Superhero comics are supposed to be fun and an escape from reality, not bring us into a real world of shady and unethical people.

Great analysis. In some ways, _Kingdom Come_ was a "heroic" version of _Watchmen_ and it would be a guide for people that want to deconstruct the hero mythos and then reconstruct. But then we have too many frauds in the industry today and they are usually short-sighted.

Here's a question: What if a story was written where one day, the villains in the Marvel universe decide that the heroes are so morally bankrupt that they might as well use their powers for good because no one else will? I would give an example, but I can't think of any right now. So I'd like to hear what you think would happen.

I wonder if it *still* would've been revolutionary if Moore had used the -Justice League- Charlton cast as he originally wanted to

That's all definitely true in the comic book industry, however not adhering to a strict moral code and doing immoral things to achieve your goals has become such a theme in modern media, superhero or otherwise, that a truly moral character is rarer than an antihero now.

I think part of why watchmen was so successful and the watchmen clones seem outlandish in comparison is because watchmen doesnt use established heros. I think that was very good decision on DCs part. To have seen batman, superman, and the question acting like the characters in watchmen do would have been kinda weird. Much like how all these clones are weird.

That's when marvel lost me as a reader. The story idea was more important than all the continuity and character development that had been established up to that point. These were not the characters I'd been reading up to that storyline. I stopped reading soon after that. When all the other stuff happened, the wholesale replacement of established heroes with new PC versions, I was n't surprised or shocked. Marvel simply was n't for me anymore. I'm not a fan, I'm a customer. They no longer make a product I can support.

Deconstruction without RE-construction is nothing more than DEstruction for giggles. 'Watchmen' was an excellent story, a highly intriguing thought experiment ... but in no way was it something that needed, or for that matter DESERVED, imitation. As an example of how NOT to write a super-hero myth, it's pretty hard to beat. Even there, Nite Owl and Silk Spectre learned and moved on, Ozymandias accepted going in this was the best solution a human, even "The Smartest Man Alive" could come up with to solve an unsolvable problem. Rorschach, at the end unable to compromise, and knowing there was no place for him in Veidt's "brave new world", begs Dr. Manhattan to kill him. Reconstruction was not only possible, it was at that point, even with Rorschach's journal being published to cast doubt on the whole event, inevitable. What DC and Marvel have done in the "Watchmen's" wake, has failed for no other reason than they not only failed to reconstruct their characters after running them through the mill, they blatantly never intended to. They completely missed the point.

Okay...I hate that I didn't make this video first. lol Great job, sir! Keep dropping that truth!

"Heroes who stand for nothing aren't heroes. Heroes who reflect all of the flaws of society but fail to overcome them, aren't heroes." Most storytelling follows Jung's thought, "The thing you want most, is in the darkest woods where you most fear to go." Nihilistic storytellers (George Martin, for example) are not reliable guides; they lead you into the darkest part of the woods, only to lay themselves down and die, leaving you alone to find your own way out. They deconstruct the heroes, without reconstructing them again.

Woohoo! A new video by Just Some Guy - ALWAYS glad to see you drop a new one. Solid video, too; you have way too many people trying to be Moore, without understanding why that was powerful and why the opposite can also be true.

I've absolutely hated what they have done to cyclopes. Yes he was always kind of a douche bag but he was the leader of the X-Men. But the last decade they absolutely destroyed his character and made him irredeemable. And the other Marvel characters appear to not be that far behind him.

It is not the fault of watchmen. Blame the industry for misunderstanding the themes of the story. They thought (and still think) that grim, gritty and violent stories equals sales. However, watchmen was mature and very complex and wanted to present superheroes in a realistic light. Unfortunately the industry keeps repeating the same mistakes and producing stories that are dark just for the sake of being dark and make the heroes suffer because they think that is what a hero is. That is wrong. Heroes are meant to inspire people and give them hope. Stories like watchmen have their place, but they should not be the driving force behind every comic book story. You cannot blame Moore because the idiots at dc comics took the wrong lessons from is story.

@Just Some Guy We can all agree that DC's misunderstanding of Watchmen; led to the creation of the clusterf### that is "The New 52."

U got some details wrong in your criticism of Civil War (it wasnt a "mutant" thing but a super-powered or costumed crusader thing; and the destruction was caused by a villain while in battle with The New Warriors live on a reality show) but we get your point. Great video.

"They can be a great people, Kal El. They wish to be."

Trying to constantly recreate another person's work is what created this problem but making the heroes more human isnt too bad of a idea for some of them. Wolverine would work perfectly as someone who just handles the rapist quick and easy. Spiderman no so much. Jason todd is a great counter image to batman when he is allowed to cross that line between a hero and a villain but doesnt mean it works for batman. If they did this edgier hero stuff in smaller doses it would be better. If they had dire situations play out that changed them and then gave them a new perspective it would also work. Things just seem to be heavy handed on edgy and lazy on dealing with the emotional fall out of what they been through to get them back to normal or as close as reasonable.

Yeah, superhero deconstruction more-or-less started in earnest with WATCHMEN. The traditional innocence of superheroes started going out of the market at that point.

I so totally agree with every single thing you said here. You reminded me why I don't like Brad Metzler. I had forgotten. Cyclops is my all-time favorite superhero. I started to disconnect from X-Men after the killing Prof X thing but I picked up the Phoenix Five. After that I dropped all my X-Men books and have only dabbled since. The Marvel Universe needs it's first hard reset. Everything since about 2008 should be wiped away.

I loved Linkara’s commentary on that moment from Identity Crisis; The Question of these Superheroes doing this to a villain is pushing it, but still somewhat reasonable. The literal second they decided to do this to Batman, however, they lost all possible morally grey arguments that might have been offered. Villains mind wiping heroes is bad in a good way. Heroes mindwiping villains is questionable, and a good avenue of discussion. Heroes mindwiping heroes, however, *_especially_* in an attempt to hide their actions and not get in trouble, is bad in a *BAD* way. You lose any grounds to the merit of your argument, and have now wasted everyone’s time and destroyed the reputation of a group of heroes and role models. In other words: “You lose! You get nothing! Good day, sir!”

As time has gone on, i've begun to see "Realism" in current lexicon as a poison pill.

Marvel and DC have been complete shit for the last twenty years. If you're going to buy comics, go with a better publisher, like IDW.

Yeah, I grew up with Marvel and not DC but Civil War put Marvel on a road that caused me to stop reading, it destroyed my two favorite characters Spider-Man and Cyclops. Trying to be Watchmen is killing modern comics, just look at the sales, look at how many people like me have walked away because our childhood heroes have been deconstructed and never put back together so they are no longer heros.

Very good video. The one point I'd disagree with you on is the idea of heroes erasing their identities from villains minds. Unlike the Green Goblin, most heroes can't rely on the villain knowing their identity and forgetting about it during a psychotic breakdown, only to remember it when they suffer another psychotic break. If Lex Luthor knew Superman and Batman's identities, their lives are effectively over, because anyone close to them would suddenly become a target or a hostage. Unless you take away that knowledge, your other options are to kill the villain, banish them to the Phantom Zone, strand them on a deserted island or something similar. Simply removing knowledge of your identity from their mind and leaving the rest of their brains untouched is the best thing they could do in a bad situation. The problem came in when the heroes tried to do more than simply protect their identities. They didn't just erase something from Dr. Light's mind, Zatanna metaphorically dug her fingers into his brain and started scooping out the stuff she didn't like. She screwed with the fundamental aspect of who he is to make him into someone different. That's a step way too far, and it's why they had to mindwipe Batman when he caught them. Because they knew he wouldn't stand for it, and they wouldn't be able to get away with it if he remembered it. So they erased his mind to cover up their decision. Any genuinely heroic person would have stopped and gone "No. If we feel the need to cover up what we're doing, then we KNOW what we're doing is WRONG." Because the irony is that the Identity Crisis creative team basically mind-raped the heroes, changing them into something to serve the story rather than crafting a story that best fits the heroes. It's why Civil War didn't work, because Millar had to turn everyone into a douche bag to make the story fit. The stories of Identity Crisis and Civil War are definitely stories worth telling, but without major revisions they should not have been used with the mainstream DC and Marvel characters. This should have been some original project with original heroes, something in an Image book or something. Because it is possible to tell a good story with the wrong characters and result in a mess.

It seems the mid 80's were all about superhero deconstruction, doesn't it? Watchmen is probably the most seminal, but Dark Knight Returns and Squadron Supreme were doing it too.

Lo l I had to read it in my German class. The teacher was a comic book fan and we had to read it. 😂😎It was a great comic and also the movie xD

Bring in Ghost Rider and have him Penance Stare the crap out of all the Marvel superheroes. It'd be like World War Ghost Rider.

I have to add, just about every art form has a similar example of great works that contributed to a dip in both quality and creativity. When it comes to cinema, it's the blockbuster hits of the 1970s produced by Steven Spielberg and George Lucas. When it comes to music, it's Michael Jackson. For books, it's the dreaded Young Adult genre. Then there's painting; maybe it's Jackson Pollock? Then again modern art in general makes me want to puke. The result of all this has been the current world, devoid of all creativity and risk taking on the part of corporations who distribute these works and the people, many of which, have the gall to call themselves "artists".

I was exposed to Watchmen in my Sci-fi/Fantasy Class in High School (both the graphic novel and the film adaptation). The point was to understand how it engaged with its native genre and the history of tropes and archetypes it examines. It's a great read. But just because it was executed well, it doesn't mean less experienced writers should copy and milk this theme of cynicism so much that it becomes the norm and the message becomes stale or watered down. Archetypes aren't inherently wrong or problematic. Yet the current comic book industry acts as though these archetypes and tropes are too outdated and naive to be effective anymore.zack Snyder, for example took away the Archetypal nature of Superman to add realism, but he failed to recognize that Superman is inspirational BECAUSE he's a boy scout. He's supposed to represent humanity's greatest potential, not humanity's flawed nature.

Saying that Watchmen ruined comics because of all the crappy comics that came after ir is like saying that Led Zeppelin ruined rock music because of 80's hair metal

In Civil War, it wasn't a member of the New Warriors that destroyed the town in Connecticut, it was one of the villains they were after, Nitro, who blew up the area and the hundreds of people there because these young heroes were going way in over their head and their inexperience costed lives.

Grant Morrison has something to say about this - you can approach the superhero genre either as a missionary or an anthropologist. You either go as a missionary, degrading their colourful local dress and quaint customs, trying to force them into a civilized state, or you go as an anthropologist, immerse yourself within their culture and try to understand the deeper meaning within it. Too many comics writers today are missionaries.

This is some very good analysis. As an Iron Man fan, I can tell you that Tony Stark has been deconstructed so many times, it is quite boring. From Dark Reign, to to Resilient, to Demon, to Long Way Down, to Superior Iron Man, to International Iron Man, to the current series, he's always going through a construction/deconstruction cycle. He' constantly deals with the same issues over and over again. He's an alcoholic. He made his fortune from weapons sales (though, I am still not clear how that is wrong). He's morally ambivalent and just as likely to side with Doctor Doom as Steve Rogers. Compare this to the MCU Robert Downy Jr. version. I'm nearly certain that RDJ had input on that character to make him more heroic. He's constantly laying down his life for others from taking a nuke through the portal in Avengers to, at the end, taking on Thanos on his own. In other words, he acts like a hero.

One of your best videos. Gave the first issue of Doomsday Clock a try just to see what was going on but I just didn't like it. The story didn't need to continue, it was perfect the way that it was. But that's the modern comic book industry.

There are a lot of ways to add realism into a superhero comic without making them terrible. Maybe they can't spend enough time with their kids. Or focus on the physical strain on their bodies. Show the effort they have to put into maintaining a proper hero persona. Don't make them terrible people

It sounds like the people writing these comics could use a lesson from Friedrich Nietzsche but that will not happen.

Perfect! Marvel Civil War and X-men vs Avengers actually made me quit reading comics for a while. In my opinion, besides copying Watchmen and not knowing what it means to be a hero, the writers just dislike some of those supeheroes. And the best exemple of it in Marvel universe is Cyclops. A lot of writers never liked his boyscout persona and here and there always tried to make him more agressive. Until they finally turned him into a monster. That killed the X-Men to me...

Excellent video! Absolutely agree! I was nodding in agreement through the whole thing and when you got to Cyclops I shouted amen! Cyclops was a great great character that they absolutely ruined! A travesty what they did to him.

Deconstruction is the Narcissist’s satire.

Civil war was it for me I stopped buying comics for ten years. Just rubbed me wrong the way they made tony.

I agree with making superheroes human, they need to be people and have flaws, but if you're gonna make them people, make them good people

An interesting observation. I also concur, you can only go so dark before it becomes a parody of itself. The same would go for to going to light. It is little wonder why a show like hero academia is so popular, it has found a balance between the two.

I have to make a confession: I never liked regular superhero stories. But I liked the Watchmen movie. I also liked One Punch Man, The Tick, Walter Melon and recently Invincible. I don't hate the genre, it's just not for me. But i really hate the recent iterations, because all they seem to want is to shit all over beloved characters. That is wrong. Just because I am gluten sensitive doesn't mean that i want to burn down all bakeries and wheat fields. These people do and I hate that. Just let people enjoy things.

Here’s an idea for comic writers. If you’re going to write a deconstruction of Superhero comics, make sure you explain WHY you’re doing it instead of “oh man Superheroes are dumb and unrealistic, so read my book where hero’s are amoral, Gritty, and violent.”

Good Video. I believe during Civil Wars that mutant get special exemption for the rule so the X-men really didn't want to get involved, though the pro and anti issue rule on what the Law was not define so the comic contradict each other greatly. Though I believe they did offer sanctuary for heroes in there schools, don't know if people took it up. Storm got involve because Pro side attack a Wakandan Embassy to arrest her and Black panther, the writer basically ignoring diplomatic immunity. Wolverine is in it because he's popular and had to go everywhere. Some X-men felt that even thought it they are exempt from registering this thing is similar that they needed to take a stand as well, though officially they didn't get involved because the Gov may see it as them negating there neutral statues. They did have member involved but officially it was not as representative of the X-men but as individual choosing to do so on there own. Many comic book reader said Cyclopes was right to destroy the mutant death cloud, people said the comic didn't make sense the reader all said the Xmen were right and the Inhuman were wrong. In universe people say Cyclopes was Hitler. The author had a agenda and even spited the fan by saying it was all brainwashing and had Emma frost quoting what the fans said as she as she was being evil.

I’ve never cared for Watchmen. Too pissy for my tastes. Moore is just a bleak and unhappy person in real life and it translates into all his art.

Also recently we have lost the suspension of disbelief that fiction requires. That's why we just get plots following the newspaper and the author's soapbox.

Great video Every hero can't be batman from the Dark Knight returns That's an exception that's become the rule

I only liked Watchmen during an edge lord phase I had in college. After that faded, so did my interest in Watchmen or any story trying to copy it.

I wouldn't be shocked if deep down, the popularity of things such as My Hero Academia and to an extent the Marvel Cinematic Universe could be attributed to the fact that they are basically the very reconstructions that so many of these wannabe Watchmen are missing. All-Might's initial training of Deku was moving trash off of a beach, not fighting crime, not withstanding many blows, it was a good deed with a weight class! All-Might even explains that this choice of training is important to reflect that heroes are ultimately just people that hold humanity to a higher standard and act accordingly. Even the original Watchmen had a nugget of this reconstruction, just not so much of the titular Watchmen as much as the concept of heroism with Bernard and Bernie, a minor sub-plot that ends with the corpse of Bernard trying to shield Bernie from the finale I won't elaborate on in case anyone wants to read it.

7:26 Minor correction regarding your Civil War point, the government didn't just crack down on mutants, they cracked down on all super powered heroes and costumed vigilantes with the Registration Act, whether they were super powered or not. Terrific video though, the superhero deconstruction story fascination by modern writers really has ruined the superhero genre.

Excellent video!! What would you recommend along the lines of WATCHMEN? Even if it is just a knockoff or fanfic.

Mr. Moore reflected on the effect his works had on comic sensibilities, and created Tom Strong, based on corny pulp mags. It is pure fun with low amounts of darkness. If Moore can read the wind, anyone can.

Brilliant video as always man. One thing about the Civil War comic, why does nobody blame Nitro, the villain who blew up the town? Why the heroes and not the villain who killed hundreds if not thousands? The book had potential, but, godamn if they didn't squander it.

This is why I liked Alan Moore's retooling of Rob Liefeld's Supreme. His run on that comic was basically an "apology letter" to his decontructing of superhero stories like Watchmen and Killing Joke

Cyclops was right!

i hate what they've done to cyclops hes pretty much irredeemable unless you reboot the marvel universe or mindwipe all of humanity. Also you cant expect me to replace original cyclops with time displaced cyclops, the time displaced one is no leader and there's no charles xavier father figure.

I feel that people forgot what comic book/ cartoon logic are anymore cause most of the stuff nowadays is doing the what-if-their-were-real-and-how-woul- they-work-in-the-real-world. They more interested in "deconstructing" everything good & evil, heroes & villains, settings, plots and lore all without seconds thought. It like taking a chisel to the David and a knife to the Mona Lisa thinking of them and nothing but simple marble and hemp. No one wants to see there favorite heroes and characters "deconstructed" for whatever reason whom may think otherwise.

I have no problem with a Cap vs. Iron Man story - nor do I have a problem with Hydra Cap - my issue is that they insist on doing it in Earth 616 instead of making an alternative Earth to explore these ideas. I'm all for these types of What If stories, but there needs to be a control (Earth 616 for Marvel and Prime Earth [I think that's the main universe for DC] for DC) group.

I don't disagree at all. Them trying to poorly copy someone else's idea and apply to every comic they make because it's popular is a very big problem as you pointed out. I think one of the other big problems is the fact they constantly reboot popular series while somehow everything is still canon. Things need a proper beginning, middle and end but that is never given nowadays.

The other problem is how so many other people wanted to make their own "dark and gritty" superhero stories without understanding what it really meant, nor why it worked when Moore did it. The movie itself showed this ignorance by mistaking dark and gritty with extreme gory violence and obscene sex scenes. That's basically a teenager's understanding of what "adult" means. From my understanding, the darkness of Watchmen helped elevate the little light that existed in that world. It doesn't work the same way if everything just dark for the sake of being edgy and "grown up." It's like when that Power X Rangers fanmade trailer or whatever came out many years back. So many people said that this was the "grown up" power rangers that they wanted. But it was horrible. All it was was showing terrible things happening to the characters that they claim to love, and not for any real reason either. Just for the sake of it happening. It's weird, but I think part of why people said that they wanted it was because they still wanted to enjoy some of the things they liked as a kid, but also didn't want to be judged for liking children's things. So they want to like the same thing they liked as a kid, but they wanted it to also be adult enough to not feel ashamed of watching it. It's stupid.

Too many folk wanna “relate” to the heroes…. They want the heroes to resemble themselves….. seem b’ass a’ackwards to me…. They should be better then us and inspire us to be better.

Alan Moore Hates superhero comics (Despite primarily making them even when given the choice to do something else). I'm not sure how this wasn't his intent. Its more of a "What have I done! Turns out my miserable asshole self is miserable to see in a mirror!" in retrospect.

Thank you. Identity Crisis and Civil War are two of the most overrated stories in the history of comics--mainly by critics that don't understand the characters, critics that are so shallow they register, "Hey this is grim. This makes it as good as Watchmen, right?"

Moore is kind of garbage tbh. His stories are rambling and include too many side stories that go nowhere and have nothing to do with the main plot. Both Watchmen and V were massively improved in terms of pacing and story in their translation to film.

9:45 - Re: converting the "ultimate boy scout" to a homicidal terrorist. This is what people of low moral character do to those of good character. Rather than do their best to achieve the goal, they tear down those who have to make themselves feel better by comparison. The result is the "you're no better!" olympics in which the lo-rent cheats claim the moral high ground by extending their own identity to the minor foibles of those who outperform them. In the real world, that's how you end up with rapists and murderers running the Democrat Party (Bill Clinton, Ted Kennedy, et al.) while claiming the moral high ground by accusing men like Brett Kavanaugh of the crimes their own have committed.

Really good writers can make characters interesting in many subtle ways, relationship problems, self doubt, misfunctioning powers etc. 2nd rate writers need to go to excesses to create drama. And that's been the problem, 2nd rate editors hiring 2nd rate writers. Jim Lee is a great artist and an interesting guy but why is he the Majordomo at DC? Because they want to keep a top artist who can sell books. That doesn't mean he knows any more than you or I about identifying great writers or planning a universe as someone like George RR Martin can.

Brilliant video. Thank you for bringing Watchman back up. I stopped reading comics about 10 years ago because I saw the trend of heroes only fighting other heroes. It was both lazy and a deconstruction of the comic hero. I was proven right in my decision as things further degraded over time. I would add that modern SJW post-modernism has only accelerated the problems. Cyclops is a perfect example of choosing a white male boyscout to both Watchman-ize as well as to villainize because he is a white male. They can't outright do this to Superman but they can get away with ruining someone like Cyclops. SJW's don't believe in morals. The post Watchman comic world is perfect ground for them.

An interesting side note to all this is that both Alan Moore and Frank Miller apologized for what they did to superhero comics with their respective series. And they both did it in their respective intros to the tpb of Kurt Busiek's Astro City, the only comic I can think of that actively tried to undo the damage Moore and Miller did. For the record, I think both Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns are amazing pieces of fiction, but they were what they were and they did what they did and, sadly, that stain still lingers. I also like to recommend Brat Pack by Rick Veitch, another great deconstruction of superheroes, but fell below the radar in the past decades. It covered the same ground, but in a more satirical way, but since it was an indie book, it got a lot deeper into some of the more fucked up aspects of "real life" superheroes. Definitely worth a read if you like that sort of thing. Also, fuck Mark Millar.

Dark Knight Returns came out before Watchmen and already did what Watchmen did, except The Dark Knight Returns wasn't cynical of superheroes but embraced their darker side for what it is. He acknowledged that they are complex multi-dimensional humans, while accepting that superheroes can still exist and still mean something, because Miller understood that what matters about the hero is their influence, not their personal lives. Watchmen is a failed attempt at critically analyzing superhero comics. People didn't care what it had to say in the end, and embraced the darker storytelling aspects rather than shunned them.

Civil War wasn't just about mutants, in fact the x-men mostly stayed out of it. The registration act was for everybody that was a super power or vigilante

I believe that dark knight returns and watchman, and it's popularity, helped in the destruction of superhero comics. They no longer can just let superman be super. As long as he has more power, only super power wise, then somehow this whole "false God" shit keeps getting shoveled over top of him. That's why all star superman is one of my favorite superman movies ever. They simply portrayed superman as just that, and not in stupid overly cynical light. Batman doesn't get the same treatment and yet batman is rich, basically, near all powerful in his place as well. But because he dresses in black and is brooding, all of a sudden, he's incorruptible or above anybody who happens to have super powers.

Well, I'll say this. By itself, Watchmen is a classic. Both as art, and as psychological deconstruction of the superhero. That said, the many imitators it spawned, from the dark, gritty details to the all too flawed characters have become stale. Also, that style of storytelling shouldn't apply to DC proper. As an aside, I'd argue that Crisis on Infinite Earths was far more damaging to DC in the long run. On a final point, Identity Crisis was hot garbage. The plot was ridiculous, and the actions of the heroes involved was completely out of characters. Civil War..... no comment.

To be fair, the did reconstruct Speedball in a meaningful way by creating Penance

Watchmen is overrated, self indulgent, depressing drivel. Alan Moore is a world class grump who hates comics and superheroes. Sorry fanboys, but I’ve never understood how people like either of them...

I would rather watch *"Superhero Movie"* than be forced to sit through "Watchmen" again - that was the dumbest, most boring, worst movie, I have ever seen. The comic never even had a chance of being hunted down in some comic book shop somewhere in Alaska at the time. I pretty much walked away from the superhero thing after Iron Man 2 - it all just got boring to me.

I think the guy who wrote astro city argued against deconstruction because of people never reconstructing characters. He caught a lot of flak for showing otherwise optimistic characters because APPARENTLY people hate that now

The issue with Moore is that he's a moral relativist and made watchmen as such, shaming the one character who had the objectivist moral viewpoint, Rorschach, killing him even. However, Rorschach was the only character who was right, good was good, bad was bad, good shouldn't be penalized, bad should be punished. But the comic tried to frame that in the end sacrificing of the good to prevent the bad is ultimately good. (Squid massacering millions of innocents). This is an awful ideaology. And yet we're supposed to accept this as the best solution, but are supposed to assume Rorschach is crazy because he killed a child molester/killer. Ironically, most classic superheros are objectivist, any Steve ditko character like spiderman, mr. A,The question, or batman on the original stories, and the grandfather of many and most heros The Shadow.

Actually, if it wasn’t for Alan Moore, Grant Morinson, Neil German and Frank Miller to introduce a darker tone and depth to comics, the comic industry could die out much sooner. How much the superhero’s would survive with goofy, repeated stories, villains and themes over and over again? I believe they gave Comics a life support for a little bit more.

I have never liked Cyclops, but I ALWAYS respected him, and what he stood for, and DAMN Marvel to HELL for corrupting him over the yrs! :-(

Watchmen itself was the problem, not the copycats. Alen Moore is an adherent of occultism and the moral relativism that is core to it's philosophy. Occultism also has a disdain of mainstream religious thought, especially Christianity. Watchmen is intended to be iconoclastic, it's messages is "The people, traditions, and heroes you look up to are actually wrong/evil". Moore created the story to promote his spiritual views. The copycats are the intended outcome of his project, they are the proof that his indoctrination was successful. The fans no longer belives in the values and heroes they once did but now would rather see them brought down and debased.

The main problem is that these writers fail to understand what Deconstruction is. Turning someone into an edgelord is not deconstruction. Making a hero an immoral a-hole isn't deconstruction. Basically these writers completely misunderstood Moore's work

Yep. You're absolutely right. Probably explains the meteoric rise of My Hero Academia. *smh* Stupid, lazy, prideful Western comic writers. Sad.

Also so tried of hearing praise for the likes of alan moore or stan lee alan moore got fucked by almost every company he worked for yes and that sad but him turning his back on comica it's stupid life isn't about what's done to you it's about what you do when those things are done his daughter being all "he got fucked so he hates comics" yes just doesnt slide the dude is fucking nuts and the alien at the end of watchmen is by far one of the worst endings in comics literally coming out of nowhere and breaking his own rules he made in watchmen to create it in the first place like we are told manhattan is the only super being that ever lived yet this alien was created using psychics so if psychics existed in watchmen than manhattan was NOT the only super being in their world was he? As for the plan? How in gods name would that plan have United humanity it would've just given us another reason to hate each other

Problem with this thesis. IIRC, Alan Moore HATES the idea of superheroes so very likely he tried to and would be happy to hear that he ruined super hero stories.