Huge Fortin Amps Drama 

With all this guitar company drama I think its important ro remember that Mr. Krabs sold spongebob for 62 cents to The Flying Dutchman

If you hold a trademark then you have to be seen to be defending the trademark so that you can get it renewed. Can’t see what Fortin have done wrong here

I suppose "rambunctious squash" could be a fitting name in case either party loses the trademark

I am extremely impressed with your thoroughness and balanced critical perspective on this matter. So refreshing in present times where division and creating anger is the goal to gain subscribers and revenue growth. Keep up the great work! I definitely see a strong future for you, with this type of investigative journalism.

I was in a more or less identical situation with my company name, about 10 years ago. Despite the link between my product and the competitor's product being very tenuous, and the names of our two products only being similar (both used the word 'Elephant'), my lawyer explained to me that even with everything going well for me in court, and what I would consider a clear win (which I did), then chances of me winning were 50/50. Essentially there is no hard and fast way to solve these issues. Happily, I threatened to go to the papers and forced my competitor to pay for my rebrand... but I went down the tubes within 12 months anyway. At least I managed a little bite back. This only happened because I applied for a trademark. If I had not bothered I suspect I would have never been noticed. Admittedly that isn't the case here as the competitor is already aware. These laws are supposed to protect companies from copycats, but what they often do it stifle competition in favor of the big boys.

I have to admit when I first saw the pedal/instrument I thought it was a mod designed to mimic the amp. But that impression lasted about 10 seconds.

Hope you feel better soon, thanks for checking this story out!

Trademarks are a first to file thing, like patents. It doesn't matter if AMC was using the name, if they failed to register it in the U.S. for use in the U.S. market. Fortin has a point, but this also leaves AMC free to use it wherever Fortin hasn't registered a trademark and cause them headaches there.

i agree w/ your assesment. no clear winner here. i see both sides arguments. thanks kdh!

AMC should offer to sell the 'Evil' trademark and change to Vile/Demon/Diabolical/Wicked/Unholy, chuck in a collaboration, distribution deal.... Everyone's happy. Good on Fortin for not acting like asshats.

This is really rich, considering that Fortin stole an entire circuit from Larry Grohmann for one of Fortin’s amps.

This is why I've been a subscriber for a while now. You cover things well and also you really did the best Yngwie video ever 🤣😂👍🏽👍🏽🤘🏽🤘🏽

Irrelevant to the topic but the new LED backlights add so much to the videos

There's no question how this would play out in a US court: AMC would lose. They're making a usage argument, because they started using the name in January 2020, but that doesn't help them. Fortin have been using the mark in trade for a decade. AMC simply doesn't win on the "who used it first" argument. Fortin both used it first, and registered the mark in the US first. And, of course there's possibility of consumer confusion. I don't wish them any harm, but the only way they're going to be able to sell legally into the US would be by changing the name (or licensing use of the name in the US market from Fortin). Fortin can't let it slide without losing protections from cheap clones of their products coming in from China or whatever. Trademark must be consistently defended, or you lose it. They aren't the bad guy here; I'm not saying AMC is the bad guy, either, but they're being unrealistic and they're asking Fortin to give up the ability to defend their mark, which isn't fair to Fortin. The middle ground would be a cheap license to use the name, but I don't think Fortin is obligated to do that, or should do that if they'll be operating in a similar product category, as the trademark application indicates they will.

General comment - thank you for what you do. The manner in which you present topics is fair and balanced and very well researched, and as a result very appealing for me to listen / watch. One of my favorite channels, I’m a happy subscriber! Cheers!

I feel AMC should just rename the pedal to Dark Pumpkin, Bad Pumpkin or something to that effect. Or Fortin and AMC should come to some sort of licensing agreement which could actually be quite beneficial to both parties.

Always appreciate you trying to see it from both sides.

hes discovered the meta of "HUGE topic DRAMA"

I'm more surprised that Boss hasn't said anything about this.

Another very good piece. Keep up the good work.

5:39 that second sentence put a smile on my face, that means they're watching your content and know what and who they're dealing with

Ahh yes, avoid confusion, the cornerstone of the musical products industry.

Ur channel is good dude. Just getting straight to the dam point. Love it

Nice, thank you for sharing this info so we can form an educated opinion!

A lawyer sending something is absolutely a threat of legal action. That’s the whole point of using an attorney.

I think that just changing the name in the US would probably settle the matter. Keep selling evil pumpkins in UK, but in the US their the (redacted) pumpkin or something. Maybe the name has a lot of meaning to AMC, but I don’t see what the big deal is with changing it.

Loving the pyro style video title for the engagement lmao

When it comes to intellectual property, I've always felt that possessions only weigh you down...

Thanks, Kirlan

At this point, it's fair to say that you're the best guitar-related journalist (yeah, this video is a great journalistic work, for real) these days. Great investigative work, saw a lot of details and a huge attention to the narrative, everything carefully crafted, that I remember learning during my years studying journalism in college. Wouldn't be surprised if you say that you studied something similar as well. Also, since you said you were under the weather, all the best for your recovery, hope your health is as better condition now.

Similar case with Budweiser beer. Two worldwide renown companies selling beer under same name since 1939. The court eventually decided

As a future patent attorney, I don't see anything wrong with Fortin's operation, and it's actually quite correct. Such warning letters are a normal practice among entrepreneurs before entering the civil road. Trademark protection is territorial in nature (similarly to a patent), i.e. if trademark protection started and operated in the USA, then someone using it, e.g. in Canada, does not infringe. The fact that AMC claims to have its trademark in Ukraine is irrelevant here. It sells their productc marked "evil pumpkin" in the USA. If Fortin has a trademark there, they have every right to sue AMC for trademark infringement. The fact that AMC doesn't sell its products there personally doesn't matter. If Fortin takes legal action in this case and files a lawsuit for trademark infringement and sues AMC for infringement of the "Fortin. Evil Pumpkin" trademark and the court upholds this lawsuit, then, for example, AMC goods marked with the disputed logo may be seized through customs at the border and will never reach their US recipients. I would suggest AMC change the name of their product, remove any kind of similarity to words "evil" and "pumpkin" and thats aboute it.

All I'm gonna say is companies have had to change logos and product names for different markets for decades. Look at Sega alone, they had to rename the Mega Drive to Genesis in the US because of an existing trade mark by Mega Drive Systems and Sega had to change the color of the Dreamcast logo to avoid trademark issues with a company in Europe. It's an unfortunate situation but part of doing business. If you don't enforce your trademark then you run the risk of losing ownership of it.

I just checked out the videos from Killertonetexas, and that particular Evil Pumpkin anyway sounds a lot like the Mesa / Marshall mods that Hermansson Amplification does, it's amazing

You guys are missing one huge part of all this ! The fact "AMC" is selling a used boss pedal and no one mentions Roland at all😅

Nice video, feel better soon!

Amc said he's also delivering pumpkins to the USA, and if that came after fortin evil pumpkin announcement could be seen as directly referencing the fortin product

The Telecaster and SG are household names in the homes of guitarists and musicians the world over, yet due to cease requests, they had the names changed from what they were originally produced as: the Broadcaster and the updated Les Paul model respectively. If it's good, like I'm sure the AMC Evil Pumpkin is, the world will know it, no mater what they call it. My vote is Ghoulish Gourd.

One of my friends is a copyright lawyer and holy hell...as if national copyright lawwasn't confusing enough. International copyright is downright insane.

Well done! Get feeling better.

American guitar geek here. I come for the accent, I stay for the info…and the “Bye-Bye” at the very end. Love it! Makes my day.

The video clip at the end says Evil Pumpkin in the title, but the amp itself doesn't say that as far as I can see, so I think that also shows some gray space to be investigated.

Ookok. But what's it all got to do with Rob Chapman and how can we blame him for it?

@9:35 Yeah it does, it falls under the same trademark class. If he was selling jewelry called Evil Pumpkin it would be fine as they are different class (14) vs Musical Instruments (15 (I think these would fall under it)) Also as Ukraine is part of WIPO, AMC's counter with point 2 is irrelevant as Ukraine has to honour the US law and established trademarks, essentially it should go to court and the judge would decide who is more impacted by the confusion. Also AMC seems to be thinking that because he started before this would be similar to prior art which is used in Patents. I think you are bang on in your assessment at the end.

I think Fortin handle this respectively. But I also understand AMC's position. KDH is spot on. No winners. If AMC is reading this, it would be cool if they just changed their u.s. distributing pedals to EV-L Pumpkin. Or, EVL-P, Kinda like a Boss style title. Like DS-1 or RV -5. That's free advice. You're welcome.

I spent a day with Mike Fortin at his home years ago, when he was still in the beginning stages of getting his amp company off the ground. He was as kind and generous a person you're ever likely to meet. I would have been shocked if he was being unreasonable with a trade mark.

For the record, Rick F, Mike Fortin's attorney, is the MAN!!

I'm sure everyone is under a lot of stress. Hopefully they work together to come out with a solution. I don't think they were unreasonable with their request, although I do understand being in a war, and trying to respond to something like a silly squabble over a name lol. Like I said though, hopefully both come together, and hash the whole thing out. Maybe come up with a plan where a pedal comes with an Amp purchase? I don't know, but the internet is not doing the situation any justice. Your video did though. Great job!!

And Winners are the Lawyers !

Mr. Kdh, I really enjoy your content and was wondering how to request a video so I thought Id try leaving a comment. I'm on the fence if I should buy a Hughes and kettner grandmeister deluxe 40 - 40 /20 /5/1-watt Programmable Tube Head. I have no experiance with tube amps and I've been feeling alot of pressure to pull the trigger because of great sale right now. I live in the US and there seems to be alot of polarization around this product, it's warranty options to US residents, it's accessories, it's advertised iPad connectivity and related issues, among other issues. But still I've seen alot of rave reviews and am drawn to this unit. I would really appreciate your viewpoints here as this type of thing seems to be what you specialize in with your in depth analysis of polarized products. All the best, t

Easy answer name change made on both parties.....Fortin Evil Pumpkin and AMC Evil Pumpkin. The 2 products are totally different. If I am looking for an amp I definitely would be looking at the AMC evil pumpkin and vice versa. Nice video!!!

There has to be a way to settle this peacefully.

Still getting the new meshuggah… i’ll post a short in 2-3 months, we’ll see if the standby works this time around

Great video! So let me get this straight: Fortin owns the trademark in the US? So what’s the problem? AMC could make the exact same pedal with another name, claim it to be an US-import version and keep the Evil Pumpkin for the pedals sold in the rest of the world? Right? Greetings from the Swedish west-coast.

Same thing happened between fender and soldano over the hot rod soldano amplifier and the hot rods series fender amplifiers. Fender owns the trademark, but they made a friendly and mutual agreement. Of course there was no social media back then, and there wasn't any drama between parties involved. Hopefully they can work something out.

Marshall should ask Fortin to stop selling modified Marshall's, lol

I read that article last night and I thought, wow, this story has everything

I have that same Guitar behind your left shoulder

Nice video. Wait until Disney sees the Darth Pumpkin...

Thank you for taking the time to provide a well researched, fair, and balanced view into this. I consider Mike and Rick friends, both have been very generous with their time and knowledge in furtherance of my brand. Protecting your brand/IP is something most of us do to keep putting food on the table, and their approach to this situation was in my opinion was even handed, amiable and not a threat in any way. As always YMMV.

This sort of legal wrangling is not new and pretty common in the music space, We have today the Fender Telecaster that was originally named the Broadcaster but fender got served a cease and desist from Gretsch who already had a name trademark on a drum set called the Broadkaster. Legally Fortin has the upper hand here. They have the filing they also have a much older usage claim.

Hey KDH! Have you ever heard of or tried out the Ibanez TN120 Thermion amplifier? I bought about fifteen years ago (4x12" cabinet with Celestion Vintage 30s included) and I used it for many years since. Crazy good sounding amp IMO. If you'd like to do a review on it I can maybe have a look at the cost of sending it to you? (just the amp lol - the cabinet would be crazy expensive!!). I think the head weighs around 25KG and the cabinet around 50KG. I think you'd really like it! Let me know!

Only win is, like many others I'm sure, I have never heard of either product till now.

In the US, the date the trademark was registered is less important than how long the business has been using the mark for trade. So AMC would lose and definitely could not afford to fight in US court, so they would have to default. I’m sure they did not mean to infringe or harm Fortin, but that is irrelevant in the eyes of the law

Many people won’t understand this statement, but as someone with their name on US IP, when you as a company pay for and go through the due diligence to be granted IP or trademark/copyrights, you have secured the right to do what Fortin is. No matter if you like their reasoning or not, they pursued and paid for that protection and it should be followed. We see this a lot in the states where international companies will sell and slip into the sales streams of the US in particular while violating IP/Tom’s etc and it’s unfortunate because to the companies that attempted to secure this protection, it can feel like it was a waste of time or money when people don’t abide and play within the rules. But, all is fair in love and war, so kill or be killed - if the little guys can slip in and work around it to get their sales I suppose people can say kudos to them for hustling.

I love kdh.proper arguments on both sides

Thank you for sharing this, been a fan of analog music company for a long time, tired of Fortin bullying people

whats your signature sound 8:20 "evil pumpkin" I use one on every track...

I can see fortins side.. cause SOME people may think .. why buy the amp when i can get a similar sound with the pedal.. people may assume it will mimic the fortin sound.. the pedal company should just change the name to EPG 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️ people who want it will know what it means

IMO Fortin did nothing wrong. Their lawyers are just doing their job, and doing it quite well and reasonably.

Seems like the toxic people trying to blow up a big issue as usual. With so many companies issuing pedals they mimic their amps,i won't be surprised that a pedal with the same name could be linked to an amp with the same name Great reporting, no wonder companies are starting to trust you enough to give you a statement. Keep up the good work!

KDH always a good voice on guitar drama hahaha love it

Point of order at 7:58 - the confusion wouldn't necessarily be that someone would mistake a modded pedal for an amp head, more that if I walked in to a store and saw an Evil Pumpkin amp and an Evil Pumpkin pedal, I'd almost certainly think they were complementary products from the same company.

As a trademark attorney I can assure that Fortin is in their right. AMC should focus on beating the Russians.

i really cant see how Fortin is the bad guy here. AMC knew what they were doing when naming that pedal, and are now poorly attempting to damage control. There's absolutely 0% chance they werent trying to cash out on an already established name...

THAT ORANGE MARSHALL!!

What would be a better name for this channel's speciality: metalodrama or metalenovela?

The fact that Fortin can prove they've been using the 'Evil Pumpkin' name for so many years stands them in good stead, in my opinion. I don't see how Analog Music can argue their way around that fact.

How do you only have 72k subs, man?

If it goes to court the lawyers win.

I have to say, I’m leaning in favor or Fortin here. If AMC’s only argument is “we were using the name before you trademarked it”, then Fortin’s retort that they started using the name long before both Fortin’s trademark and AMC’s first use is perfectly reasonable. So AMC can’t even say they were using the name first. Finally, didn’t the name come about as a sort of nickname for a set of modifications done by Mike Fortin? I’m not saying that alone gives him ownership of the name but I think Fortin has a much better claim to it than AMC ever has. Fortin’s initial letter to AMC was nothing but respectful and I think it’s ridiculous that some people perceived this as some big company siccing their legal team on a poor, defenseless self-starter. That doesn’t appear to be the case at all but some people have a wildly out-of-whack injustice detector that immediately reads “code red” no matter the situation.

Quality chanell

A trademark issue in music where both arguments are valid????

It is very easy to end a who was first to commercially use debate - them to provide a receipt showing date and name of the product to KDH. They haven’t provided it for the purpose of this video, but sent a RU-vid link instead and it creates a confusion between “the use as me, you and all the people would understand it” and “the first commercial use as the law puts it”. Do they have a proof of a COMMERCIAL use of this product (sales of GOODS, and not modding the amp for the same person which is PROVIDING SERVICES)? Why this confusion tactics is still being used?

I'd interpret a communication from a law firm as a threat of legal action. Because of the implication.

Good on Fortin, they have the right to defend their product. Same how Suhr, Bogner, Fender and many other have done. It’s business. I hope the best for AMC and Fortin.

This is a reminder that BK will do it your way

I think it was unfortunate that AMC made a whole public display of the matter, when it seems to be quite a minor issue. Maybe make a US version called The Ghazalah Pumpkin

Fortin doesn't deserve the hate ... you have to protect a trademark or you can lose it. They weren't overly agro about it. AMC should just ask them if a minor change in name would be enough to mark it separate in the US ... they could easily work something out.

Ichabod Charles Brown Crane the III here, as a Lawyer representing my clients, actual pumpkins, I'd like to put forth the statement that my clients are not evil or malicious, simply misunderstood in the holiday menace market. That being said, they should just play nice and slap their company names in front of the Evil Pumpkin descriptor as a way of differentiation and just call it a draw.

i want that EVIL PUMPKIN pedal

I mean it's clear that this company is using that name to build association with the Fortin amp/tone/sound. That's the only reason they would have even named it that.

what is that les paul on the background?

I once reverb sold a very expensive pedal to the owner of a famous boutique pedal company. The pedal cost insane amounts to ship with insurance bc of its worth and size. Knowing full well that I’m a private person and not a business, the buyer/owner goes not the sound I want I want a refund…I was out almost $150 from shipping and insurance just bc this pedal builder wanted to be pompous. I’ll never buy from them again and this seems to be a lot of their attitudes imo. I have better luck with big box companies anyway I despise most overpriced boutique crap. In short I paid $150 for a very well renown builder to tear apart my pedal copy the insides then he asked for a refund. Human trash cans.

AMC should change the name. They could just paint another loop on the "P", and call it the Orange Bumpkin. Fortin shouldn't have a problem with that, and I think it's a cuter name for the synth instrument it now is.

This is despicable. FA should be offering to be a US distributor and support a 1 person operation making pedals in a war zone. Maybe a collaboration, an offer to send supplies or parts? When you see things like "sorry there's been a little delay since the last missile barrage knocked out power. Thank you for your patience" getting posted you would think that there would be some thought before sending a cease and desist. Mike cannot be a "kind and reasonable" guy if he lets this continue without apologizing. Be a compassionate human being and support a small business.

Question here🖖is it possible to run 2 Amps with 1 guitar.like a blackstar n a Marshall combo togheter????at thexsame time??

If Fortin has a years long brand established name (when someone says "Evil Pumpkin" I immediately think of FORTIN), in the USA Fortin could actually wrest the name away from AMC even if AMC was using it first.

Thank you KDH 🤘

agreed I can't any winners in this situation