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I wouldn't pay a dime more for a coin with a bean than I would for the same without one. For that matter, I'm going to be highly selective of what coins I buy slabbed in the first place... I'm working on a 2021 & 2023 set of Morgan and Peace dollars in each mint, privy, and strike, all in MS or PR70 condition, but once I've completed that, future coins in that series, if I acquire them at all, will be and stay raw.
Im amazed someone in China hasn't made fake cac stickers yet. The crap a lot of sellers pull on ebay would cause me to imagine that many sellers would put a fake sticker to get a higher price.
@@kevykevTPA It's easy to get burned when buying an older problem coin graded by PCGS or NGC that has a problem due to PCGS/NGC's mistake and they will not guarantee the grade or acknowledge the mistake. You can't always tell by a picture if a coin has a problem. Such problems will never appear on a CAC approved coin.
@@chrishoward7645 I believe it's because CAC registers all the serials that have been stickered so anyone buying a fake can go on their website and see it's not legitimate.
Fully agree. Computers are the best option for consistency. As for CAC, I don't look or buy their slabs. PCGS and NGC are good enough for me in my opinion.
Well thought out comments and excellent presentation. I am in the authorized CAC collector group. Have been submitting for green bean for 5 years. Tried cacg on 3 coins and disappointed on each for various reasons. I don’t submit to cacg any longer.
John albenise did an interview with Ben the coin geek before he launched the CAC grading and he didn't want people cracking out coins in Pcgs and NGC holders to put in his new holders. I was a really good interview about what he was setting out to do with his new grading company.
Great video Daniel! Playing the “crack out” game is always risky. I like CACG, but if I had any rare coin with a great grade in a PCGS holder I would never send it to be “regraded” or for crossover. I agree with you on the need of computer grade. Thank you for another great video 😎🤙🏼
Daniel, I agree 100% that as a society, we must leverage technological advances. If we don't and say that's the way we've always done it, then one must question why we are spending so much time and effort in trying to advance technology?!?! Thanks for the great content.
Technology can be used as a tool, but not as the final arbiter of the coin's grade. It's not a perfect thing, and must "learn" grading through hundreds of thousands of coins. For example, for each issue of each series, the computer must sample hundreds of coins for each numerical grade, at a minimum, to have enough of a database, to judge a coin's grade. And even then it's still not enough as the computer must constantly learn to get better. Some issues of some series don't even have a handful of coins graded in all grades. And you can't just use another issue in the series (except maybe for ultra-moderns) since each issue will have its nuances - which the computer must also learn. So, then, where does the computer get all these coins? Maybe a computer can tell a human that there's a 60% chance the coin's surface may have been altered, but the human must make the final decision. The human eyes have a resolution of about 10 times greater than the highest-resolution full frame cameras.
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I agree 100 percent Daniel!!! In addition to that, people are asking huge premiums for CAC graded coins. I've seen morgan dollars with identical grades from CAC, PCGS NGC and the asking price for the CAC was 40 to 90 percent more. I think that is ridiculous! My opinion.
I would trust a grading company that you created. Your passion, honesty and computer tolerances would be wonderful. You are the Yoda of coins. Thanks for your info and videos. Keep numismatics strong, healthy and most importantly honest. Bravo keep up the excellent work.
CACG is raising awareness to problems that have been going on with the big 2 for the past decade and a half. Only fools send problem coins to CACG expecting straight grades, then cry when they come back "details." Look at the coins in the last video. In fact, look up the certs, and you'll see high resolution pics at CACG, and you may agree with them more than not.
I was going to start a company (STAR) that would put a * on CAC stickered coins that were exceptional for the sticker ! (LOL) . A GREAT video Daniel , well put....
I always thought that the inconsistent grading standards have held this hobby/industry back from its full potential and this latest grading company will just add to it
I agree there needs to be a standardized grading system. One thing you didn't touch on is grading 1-10 instead of 1-70, which throws another wrench in the grading kerfluffle. Even then I will never buy a coin just for the slab. I buy a coin which I feel is the best.
WOW; Dan you need to get some deep pocket investors and develope your computer grading standards. It's a time whose come. Plus, they would issue a detailed report why a coin gets that particular grade. Keep up the great work. I've learned so much from you over the last 2 years. You're terrific! Stay awesome!
Thank you for injecting some intelligent common sense into this important issue, Daniel. Computerized algorithms are definitely the path to better consistency.
Earle's post was great, fun read. As for CACG... why do we need this? One clock, you're sure of the time. Two clocks showing different times, you're confused. CAC is the third quantum clock that sometimes aligns with one of the other two, sometimes shows it's own time, and sometimes disagrees with it's own time. Yet they're supposed to be the supreme authority on grading now? I don't know. Not to me and my money they aren't. They're the same parasites as the other big names. I'll become a customer when computer grading is a thing. Have agreat day and thanks for the video.
Good post, Daniel. I would only cross to CACG at the same grade (or higher). On the 1794, I believe CACG will honor the other TPG grade if it was previously stickered. But CAC never considered the + when stickering a coin.
Exactly, that these so-called "dealers" are not setting conditionals on crossovers are mind-blowing. CAC will honor the grade on any previously stickered coin. And if they don't agree with the sticker for some reason, they pay out.
I think it's stirring up the Hobby, but I'm certainly not going to crack out my coins from PCGS to submit to CACG. I'm in a position with my Buffalo Nickel collection, that I could choose which company I wish to collect. Thanks for sharing, Daniel. 👍👍
I can see how this would help grade modern coins but how do you account for the coin die's wear especially when you're talking about an early American issue? I happen to collect Early & Capped Bust Halves which were minted with a number of die anomalies due to the expense and laborious process of making the dies in those days.
In my opinion CACG really missed the mark with their new service. If they really wanted to make a splash and disrupt the market they should have gone to computer grading and introduced a new grading scale 0-100 with a grade for obverse and reverse and an average score.
Having a coin graded is a form of investment. Why take a chance sending an investment off to somewhere that will cash in on something you will lose? CAC will never get my services especially after their opions are in question. What we really need is an instruction video on how CAC grades and what they look for just as PCGS and NGC has done.
I have never really understood the idea of having some person behind the curtain "grade" a collectable, I started in sports cads and now have moved to coins, and I see the same issues in both. Grading is an opinion, when I buy something, I buy it raw because if I like the condition and I think the price is fair, I will buy it, also, I don't want my coins or cards encapsulated in plastic, takes some of the fun out of it in my opinion. Anyway, in Sports cards there is a new Computer based grading company that does not use humans to grade, and they give you super detailed report with each card. This is a company called TAG grading. Not only is the process more transparent, it also should be fool proof. BUT the hobby seems to be rejecting it. Why? Who knows, not the big name company, maybe it is too detailed? I don't know, but at least in one hobby, the community seems to be rejecting computerized grading.
My morning isn't complete until I pull a stool up to the counter, grab a cup of coffee and listen to Daniel preach! I'm not exactly sure where I personally stand on these issues. But then again I was against slabs when they came out in the 1980's - now I'm definitely in favor of them. Better consistency needs to happen somehow. And CACG isn't helping this! Anyhow, I hope that the powers to be watch your videos - I suspect if they aren't subscribers, they at least have buddies that forward your videos to them! Cheers!
Everyone says "buy the coin, not the case", but then grade a graded coin?? Why do I need to pay someone to tell me it's a good looking MS65 when I already paid someone to tell me its an MS65.
If you are making money by getting coins stickered and selling them for profit I can understand. That is no different than guys that play the crackout game. As a collector I don't need the extra validation that my coin is solid for the grade and I don't want to pay extra for a sticker. I know what a solid coin looks like. As a collector I just buy slabbed coins as assurance that the coin is probably genuine, problem free (or close enough to be considered as such) and generally the assigned grade. If I buy an AU55 coin I could care less if it is more of a 53 or 58. People are forgetting that collecting coins is to enjoy the beauty of the coin and the historical significance. I can't see splitting hairs over stickers and if a coin is a + or a * as adding any true value to the beauty and history of the coin.
Great Info I was getting back into coin collecting after raising a family & now have extra $ but with all these grading issues and so many fakes 😢 This helps me make the decision to stay away until they fix these issues 👍🏻
The few CAC stickered coins that I have look better than the average for the grade. So for the most part a slight premium is warranted. I don't agree with people asking 50%+ for a coin just because it has a sticker. CACG grading still has some kinks they have to work out. I personally wouldn't cross anything to CACG.
Thanks Daniel. At this point, I'll only look at CACG graded coins and see the grading results. I have no intentions of sending coins to them. AI has got to be involved soon somehow. I dont know how the hobby can support grading standards with so many opinions.
I've been collecting for over 60 years. In my collection I have four coins that I purchased graded. I don't play the grading game. Buy a book on how to grade or take a course on grading and learn how to do it yourself. I have seen so many videos where coins come back from grading and the person is not happy with the results and decides to crack it out and send it to another grading company hoping for the grade they want. The money they spend on playing this game could go towards the purchase of another coin that they want. This is not coin collecting, it's flipping. All it does is drive up prices. There needs to be a separation between flipping, which really doesn't require any research of a coin as it has already been done, and collecting, which requires a person to study the coin. To all those out there that want to grade ancients, please stop doing that. Ancients are to be held and studied. Not sandwiched between plastic!
I've seen PCGS upgrade and downgrade their own coins when cracked out and resubmitted. NGC was just as bad. Both can be inconsistent by 2 grades. ANACS is trying. It has all become a crap-shoot. Pick one and roll the dice. In my opinion there was more consistency 30 years ago.
I've seen many documentaries where computers were used on works of art and other things so why not coins. Seems like it would be far more uniform than the human eye. With everyone suing nowadays, makes me wonder if grading companies aren't opening themselves up to lawsuits. What if a person pays thousands or even millions of dollars for a graded coin based on the grade the coin has. Then he decides, for whatever reason, to send it out for a CAC grade and gets a lower grade which would probably lower the value of the coin. Could he then sue the first grading company for their grading because it over valued the coin? Seems like it could become a big legal battle.
As usual spot on with the analysis. If regrading is the reason (which it obviously is) then the people who are supposed to be sustaining the hobby are hurting it on purpose! I get it I have a small business but if you lose integrity then you are just ruining what you are supposed to be supporting. Keep on the issue Daniel this channel is great!
I know it's the world we live in, but I need to feel that coin in hand. Certainly see the value in grading, encapsulation, standards, etc, but the focus is no longer the coin, but something locked up you can't touch. NGC, all of them go away, it won't effect me at all. I'm just a simple country bumpkin who likes coins in their intended environment.
YES! Let them breathe. I want to hold them. I love the sharp teeth of the reeded edge gripping my fingers. I love the light reflecting off of the surface without any screen in the way. That unbroken line of preservation as the coin has been exposed is nice. People will pay extra for some old holders. The coin has been impossible to damage for 30 years. That subtracts from the coin in my eyes. I want the one that's been treasured and protected longer.
The problem isn't CACG grading too tough. The problem is people who are cracking out coins graded by PCGS and NGC with a grade they are happy with and submitting them to CACG. If you are happy with the current grade THEN DON'T CRACK THEM OUT!
My biggest "uh" on the grading companies writ large is not accepting that a coin CAN and WILL get damage AT THE MINT so that IS Mint State...yet they will ding the coin as being "damaged" which is blaming THE MINT for the damage without blaming the Mint.
I'm not sure what CACG is going for at the moment. I have a few type coins with the green bean sticker. I'd say those coins are premium quality for the grade on the slab. So, hearing what they're doing now is surprising as well as disappointing. My opinion is if they continue as they are, they'll be shooting themselves in the foot and out of business. I am in agreement that computers can be programmed to give accurate grades and grade using the same standard every time. Somehow, I hate to see grading companies become nothing more than people loading coins into a computer and packaging them for shipping. I think after the computer looks at a coin, the final determination should be made by a person, as imperfect as we are, there's just certain qualities about a coins overall appearance or eye appeal a computer just can't do. I'm old-fashioned, I know it. Before slabbed coins, you could look at a dealers coins and compare his eye with yours, have some discussion, and haggling on the price. I don't want to lose that from the hobby.
i think CAC and CACG are bad for the hobby, their coin grading is just their "opinion" and it should be taken as such, people should stick with PCGS,NGC and ANACS imo, CACG are playing hard to get just to get people's attention, I would like to see their reaction if PCGS or other coin grading companies grade their CACG slabbed coins i bet they're not going to agree one bit,and an CACG exaggerated opinion shouldn't be what determines the price of the coin in the coin market, the most expensive coins are in PCGS and NGC slabs period, CACG needs to stop playing their silly coin grading game and stick to their green beans beanie babies deal.🤣
On the 1905-S Allen Rowe owner of Northern Nevada Coin (Reno location) was asked for his valuation of my NGC MS65 coin. He said $14.5K max was the coin's purchase value while his Carson City store had just recently sold a 1905-S LIberty D.E. graded MS64+ with CAC green bean for $19.9K. My MS65 was only worth $14.5K. 2 things I realized. Northern Nevada Coin will happily demand way more for something they have than it is reasonably worth. You are a fool to do any business with them as they will all fleece you of your coin's value.
In 2012, I bought a 1911 NGC MS65 Saint for $17K. I sent the coin to PCGS for crossover where it was rejected. I then sent it to CAC where it got a green bean sticker. I tried unsuccessfully for 9 years to sell the coin (worth about $19K) for $17.5K on ebay. The coin had no bag handling marks but the circulation wear on the reverse told me the coin was a good NGC MS64 but not an MS65. I finally sold it to a dealer in Virginia for $17.5K after another exact coin graded MS65 with CAC bean sold in an auction for about $27K. I was coming to the realization that grading companies and CAC were inconsistent and not worth paying the hefty premiums for in the future.
Ive seen a few results from cac n ive goto say they are more strict on grading i wouldn't say its a bad thing. In my opinion alot of American coins are biased and over graded . I think cac are overly harsh sometimes but they are setting a standard wich is giving the old companys a shake up . We will have to see how the market reacts . I still dont think pcgs or ngc have to worrie . I cant wait for cac to take uk coins ill submitt some for trial. Ive exsperinced bad results from ngc on British but if they were American they would definitely get a straight grade and be worth a fortune . I dont think this is as bad as it sounds aslong as it set to a standard thats acceptable.
With the amount of knowledge you have, Daniel, I believe that you should start your own grading company. From what I've seen and heard in your videos, you would be an ideal representative for the Numismatic community. Integrity and honesty are things lacking not only in Numismatics but in the business world at large. You seem to have both. That's just my "two cents."
Coins graded by humans are always subject to human error or bias. Computer grading will eventually lead to a system where you can just dump a bucket of coins into a computer grading system then it separates the valuable ones from the common ones- at least regarding error coins. So obviously there is no perfect system.
Excellent video very well prepared Daniel there is no doubt it creates controversy and makes people wonder is my NGC OR PCGS coin graded correctly enjoyed video thank you
Long time ago I was involved with Compugrade, today it's possible. Main problem is building a database of coins. The program needs examples to learn from, which means the submission of lots of graded coins to learn from. Hard to get even voluntary for free. I believe it could work eventually but would be expensive and take time.
And that's the crux of it. A computer would have to look at thousands of coin for each issue in a series, and in some cases there are only hundreds, dozens, or few coins graded. Thus such model would have difficulty grading "unique" or "rare" coins.
This is how it goes on grading for sports cards. Breaking a bgs card out to get a PSA 10. Be careful on a computer. A human can grade with leniency. For example: a Card can grade on the front perfect in spec. But the back has a small percentage of not being perfect for the Top Grade. If you use AI or a computer it will be catastrophically accurate. Meaning once that's Done Your Coin You got on another video the Morgan with the 67 your best grade in 20 years. In my opinion wouldn't grade MS-67 would of been a MS-65 or MS-66. Ponder this in Comparison. Also what you mean on Slabs is "Cracking" and Resubmitting.
There is a problem with the grading industry. EX: I recently sold a 1905-S NGC MS65 easy view Liberty double eagle worth around $17.5K. PCGS would not cross it for me and CAC would not green bean it. I sold the coin for $15K to a dealer in Reno. The dealer cracked it out and sent it raw to PCGS where it came back MS65. It is now likely to get a green bean when CAC views it again soon. I lost $2K on this coin. I will not submit any coins for grading anymore. CAC will not be sent anything for a bean sticker. PCGS values this coin @$33K.
I had higher hopes for CACG. It seems like they don't know what they are doing. It is one thing to sticker a coin, and quite another to grade from raw. Maybe they will figure it out in time. Cheers!
cacg already made mistakes when i see a massive dent on a coin and they label it ms63 problem free i have issues cacg is a company i would avoid and i can only image how much it cost and how much people lost in grading coins by them
If a coin is in a PCGS holder with a CAC I see now reason to get it into a CACG slab. It remains to be seen if the market values PCGS/CAC the same as a CACG holder.
What's interesting is everybody gets excited for the beans but not the company's actual slabs. The beans command a premium. But the slabs don't. Logically that doesn't make any sense. I think NGC holds its own. I have seen plenty of MS coins conservatively graded by them. They both make mistakes though. I do not agree with the incentivization of lowering grades in order to encourage resubmission with the 1% coin value tack on fee for an upgrade. That smells.
CAC finally caved and now acknowledge Plus grades, which removes (most of) my biggest gripe about them, and I don't even like Plus grades. Before if you submitted an MS65+ coin to CAC for a sticker, their registry would only list it as MS65 and would sticker it as such. PCGS/NGC is already saying it's better than MS65, so the sticker was redundant at best and meaningless at worst, only leading to pricing confusion. Now however, their registry shows the Plus for previously stickered coins, and even CACG uses the Plus grade. Still, I would never again buy a plus-graded coin with a CAC sticker, because did they really call it a choice plus-graded coin, or just a choice base-graded coin that got a software update? No way to know.
I Agree with With you David i dont trust pcgs tierd of my coins coming back receiving cleaned . It all about the $ and who you are. That's my thoughts.
Once AGAIN, you CAN submit to CACG and place a minimum grade on your submission. Like ANY grading company you take a risk when “cracking-out”a coin and submitting it raw. So you’ve ALWAYS agreed with the grades you got back from NGC and PCGS? Anyway, thanks again for a thought provoking video!
Yes, you can, but if CACG keeps gaining momentum and premium, the it brings all PCGS and NGC grades into doubt. Doesn't matter if a coin makes the grade and stays in a holder or not, if it's not in a CACG holder it can potentially and eventually be worth less.
That might be the case BUT that has nothing to do with CACG, it’s the market and customers that drive demand. In short, IF you have any doubt that the NGC or PCGS coin won’t make the grade, keep it in its holder….
In my years of looking at NGC and PCGS graded coins, I felt that there was a similar grades handed out. Then I hear how CAC does not agree with either company during crack outs, makes me wonder about CAC. I have seen examples on You Tube and feel CAC is a step below ICG the way they grade.
Clearly there's a divide with those at CAC who are stickering and those who are grading. Mr. Albanese is going to have drill his standards & guidelines into both parties. Either way there's still going to be the human error factor.......so I agree with AI being necessary going forward.
Maybe the grading companies should use AI in addition to document the coins prior to grading. This will create a database for the grading company that can identify resubmissions. It's not 100% accurate but if there is a high chance it will catch many resubmissions and show a history of previous grades given by the graders (as a baseline).
So the guy who founded PCGS & sold it, then founded NGC & sold it, founds CACG to grade the grades given by PCGS, NGC, etc…..P.T. Barnum was right…”There’s a sucker born every minute.”
When someone is buying coins such as the 1913 Liberty , the 1794 & 1804 $1 or any other ultra rarity it wont matter if its Pcgs , CACG , or NGC as no one is buying the holder at that level. Only a fool would crack one of those out and re submit it . Most of crack out game seems to be in the plus $1000 sub $5K level .Anyone wanting a CACG sticker and cracks out a coin is asking for trouble as their grading is just way to strict IMO. Just submit as a cross for a minimum grade. If the coin already has a CAC sticker then I believe it would automatically cross. I liked CAC and have many stickered coins , however as for CACG there is one coin I may send in for a cross . CAC had rejected giving my 1817 MS 62 Bust Half a green bean however at a show a couple of very experienced graders one on which was Bill Shamhart agreed that the coin should have been stickered.
What I dislike the most from CACG is how they are grading Toned Coins. To CACG All Real Toned Coins, are Detail Graded with “Environmental Damage.” This will not change with a CACG AI, since it is a programmed variable. I choose not to purchase a CACG coin for that reason.
That's the thing people keep missing, AI 2 layer deep learning is programmed with just opinions, it builds and learns as the data base grows. AI would figure out a baseline for all grades, and detect the light reflections and refraction and proper translucency that is natural toning. You're thinking in terms of programing a computer, AI is much different.
CAC is just another coin con in my opinion. I will never use them or buy them. Period! Nothing about CAC is helping the coin world beyond helping CAC! PATHETIC!
What we need are collectors who actually have a clue how to grade. Then they can look at a slab and decide for themselves if they agree with the grade before purchasing. The "wet dream" set forth by PCGS and NGC at their inceptions for "sight unseen" purchasing of coins has gone away in this age of high resolution digital imaging. And unfortunately many collectors take the "teletubbie" approach b looking at the "toning" at coins without much regard to preservation or strike. I've seen so many coins with mush details in MS67+ holders because they have rainbow ring toning or whatever. And we have "collectors" who are not necessarily educated in the aspects of coin grading and look at a high number and toning.
@@louieatienza8762 True. Buy the book first, learn how to grade. but if you can't see the coin in hand it would be great if you could trust a gradeing company to do their job right.
For me computers are to "antiseptic" if you know what I mean. For me what makes coin collecting fun and enjoyable and a great hobby is the human element, the interaction, give and take and the subjectivity of taking my loop out and judging a coin that I just acquired and sometimes I think hey the coin is under graded or over graded or just about right. Computer grading would take that away from me and all I would do is buy a coin I want and throw it in a pile with all the other computer graded coins. Personally I don't want that, I want the enjoyment.
re subs change the pop count and its the same coin ,that sucks makes popcount off , happens in comics and sports cards to ,ialways wonder when i look at a pop count how accurate is it
In my opinion, the only coins that should be allowed to cross over to CACG “as is” are NGC or PCGS coins that already have a CAC sticker. They could just re-slab them in the new CACG holder and apply the grade that was already assigned to the coin. The only issue I see with this is that CACG does not recognize the “+” or star designations. Only raw coins should be graded by CACG unless you’re willing to crack out a PCGS or NGC coin that doesn’t have a CAC sticker and take your chances with that.
@@CoinHELPu let’s see how long it is before the Chinese start floating fake CAC graded coins into the marketplace. I hope that John Albanese has considered that possibility 😊
Gerry Fortin, one of the leading authorities on Seated Liberty coins sent 11 SL coins in PCGS and NGC to CACG for crossovers. Of the 11 coins, 8 came back in details holders and 3 straight graded. I sure wouldn’t want to take the chance of having a nice coin come back in a details slab.
i wonder if i had a pcgs coin with images on pcgs verify and let cac look at images and can tell me if it would retain same grade in their cac holders.
I can show you my two toned ASE's they called Questionably toning still waiting for my full sub to come back. If every coin comes back Questionably toning with all my toners. I will just go back to using PSGS.
