I was raised by a narcissistic parent and also have narcissistic siblings. I am the autistic scapegoat of the family; who's mum told everybody my autism was severe mental illness (mum denied my an aspergers assessment from the children's hospital when I was 6). I know the difference. I got diagnosed with ASD and cptsd at 50. Autistic people have empathy and feel for others, but maybe cannot work out body language or social cues. My mother would belt me across the face when I didn't look at her when she was talking to me (as a young child). She would allow my siblings to steal off me and break my things. ASD are very vulnerable to narcissists and other toxic people.
My mother was the same , she told me I was mental, not right in the head, evil ,that I was the black sheep of the family and that I was so evil I would be the reasons she killed herself ..she was also physically violent to the extent of banging my head against walls and using me as punch bag … but she loved my NT sister. At 51 I’ve only just realised I’m none of those things just probably autistic ..currently waiting for my assessment ..I suspect she had her own issues narcissism being one of them
May I suggest you look at it from another perspective? Being as autism is hereditary, is it therefore possible that your extended family are not narcissists but instead are also on the spectrum. I say this because I also saw my mother and her extended family as narcissists…. Until I found out I’m autistic. When I then began to apply, what I’m learning about ASD, to my mother’s behaviour I’m beginning to see a direct correlation. I’m 68, and never thought I would ever forgive my mother… but now I have. She too, never stood a chance and didn’t have the luxury of a correct diagnosis, which, now looking back, is rather sad. (All her siblings were also ‘weird’ in their behaviour…. My many cousins too). Just a thought.
@@cornishmaid9138 No. They show the traits of narcissism and enjoy causing harm. They are so toxic that I have had to cut ties. I was born 5 weeks premature and I think my autism is connected to that. My mother would tell me that she had the option to abort me; what sort of mother would say that to her kid?
@@cornishmaid9138 good thought. also, in general, neurological developmental issues as in ASD are not necessarily mutually exclusive with issues in character development as in NPD... it's just that neurological issues usually outweigh emotional and behavioral issues in differential diagnoses, and sorting out which is which is pretty complicated
@@cazridley5822 I would recommend that you look into the works of Russell Barkley. He will probably describe your problems with perfect accuracy. Then, go look at the work of Patrick Teahan LICSW, specifically about differentiating ASD/ADHD symptoms from PTSD/CPTSD. You will then doubt what you heard from Dr Barkley and realize that Teahan might have a point, and that your problems don't originate from where you thought they did. This might be an extremely rough process, but this helped me realize that my ways of being were centered around shame. That underneath the ADHD symptoms was Autism, and underneath that was CPTSD, and they all overlapped. CBT; hypnotism; mindfulness meditation; hallucinogenics therapies or micro-dosing might then be of help. Talk to not one, but MANY psychiatrists. Good luck.
One of my favorite parts of being autistic is constantly replaying past interactions with other people in my head to try to figure out if I was being an asshole or offended someone, and how I can possibly recover from it.
TY for talking about people giving you a compliment in anything you do and not believing them, because you do not think anything you do is worthy of a compliment and that there's no one on the planet that you think less of than you. That's such a core Autistic thing. Never thinking you're good enough at anything you do. As well as not being out there seeking a compliment. Compliments and admiration require a social interaction, and social interactions are terrifying and the last thing most Autistic people want to be involved in. TY also for talking about how we surround ourselves with the people who we have relied on as the safe people in our lives, usually a close family member or friend (not "lots of friends").
Thanks for making this and being so naturally triggered about it 😅 I started to get worried as I am 32 but waiting for a diagnostic for being autistic at the moment, and another video had me confused and worried on maybe being just a narcissist as it's quite subtle when I've never really looked into what autistic meant until the past few years. I always thought I am just me and didn't want anybody to label me as xyz as felt it would take away from being me, so just buried it and masked it my whole life. But I definitely have a lot of empathy and a lot of my problems seem to be from the sheer amount of users and narcissists that have taken advantage of my attempted kindness over the years. 😢 I still feel a kind of want for some kind of recognition or even sense purpose in life as my self worth is almost at 0 at this point, and there were times where I felt a lot happier about myself and had some sense of achievement. Does that make me kinda a narc though? 😭😅
Some autistic people can be toxic too though . Most I’ve met are super sweet. But there are autistic people that have been through trauma and grew up in their ego and angry !
Im autistic and im now 50. Also late diagnosis at 42 after my son was diagnosed. My girlfriend of almost 15 years has all the traits of someone with npd. Ive lately tried ending the relationship because the stress has started affecting my physical health as well as my mental and when i tell her she needs to leave because im deeply unhappy she just tells me no or i will leave when im ready and i have no idea how to handle this. Ive tried everything short of just dragging her out by her neck because im not that guy and also i wont go to jail over her bullshit. So in essence im just stuck in a relationship of constant anxiety,anger,stress and resentment which deepens my self loathing and feelings of failure. In other words i am trapped.
When i talk i always wonder why people are misunderstanding me like when i ask a question, they're mad at me. I guess neurotypical likes to be indirect that they hide their hostility and actions. That's why certain behaviors are marked with negative connotation. That's why it's important to not do things that are marked as negative Also autistic people feel different. They just feel different due to brain differences
One of most common questions I get on Quora is this what is the difference between a narcissist and autism? Sometimes worded slightly differently.😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡
thank you if i have autism makes since they think i have border line personality but listening to you makes me feel so much about myself thank you! I am going to investigate this farther thank you so much, maybe i have a bit of both I though when i first heard you speak my first thought was narcissism but i continued to listen thank you i thought i was been selfish and weird
Good Afternoon, My mum thought I was narcissistic because of my autism. And all my new friends think that as well. So in other words, because of this new rumour about autistic people being narcissistic my whole life has been destroyed and I have lost my job, my family all because of this false news. Don't know what to do about it all. 😭😭
The Honesty=Kindness is why I prefer to hang out with people with ADHD and Autism, because it's so exhausting when people just tell lies to be nice, and wont tell me when what I do hurts them until way after the fact when I can't change my behavior, like I could have in the moment
Long before I got diagnosed with ASD a friend told me "You're kind of an asshole, but you're an honest asshole, so you're not really an asshole." Perhaps not the most eloquent way to put it, but he had the idea. Being blunt, tactless, even harsh is not the same as being malicious.
Alot of people can not handle honesty. . I'm the same i get exhausted around people that lie to save face ,give fake compliments or just say what they think you want to hear. It's just so fake and a bore tbh
@@Love_Mel Its so tiring to be around people who lie out of what they see as kindness - they just want to tell you what you want to hear, because they want to make you happy, but it makes me so uncomfortable that someone else is not being themselves in order to try to make me happy. It feels manipulative and I avoid people when they do that, because everything is weighing on what they think I will like, and that's not a good basis for a friendship or any other relationship
Yeah, I rather know If people Like me or Not so WE both benifit from Not having to be around someone WHO does Not want the Other there. IT IS Not kindness to lie to someone, to make excuses for someone. Of cause you do Not have to BE an ahole about IT, but in the end honesty IS one of the biggest kindnesses one can give cause IT helps you to know yourself, grow, BE Sure of where you stand and IT means If you get a compliment IT IS worth so much more since you can Trust it
I was labeled a narcissist for many years. It was until recently I was diagnosed Autistic. The narcissistic behavior came from me mimicking my idea of what I thought what was normal behavior due to the toxic narcissistic epidemic we have in our world.
I think this is a real phenomenon not considered by this video. I would label it as "narcissistic style" as a form of autistic masking and as a consequence of being raised in toxic environments.
This. And since my mother is a narcissist, it's no wonder I picked up some of her behaviors even while seeing much of hers as extremely wrong and undesirable.
Yes. We learn how to navigate this world by mirroring what other people are doing. I have learned to "turn off" my empathy (especially in work/school settings) simply because feeling everything to a million degrees drains my battery incredibly fast - and I need energy to function. Just to survive. It's a balance, as I've learned..
This also works the other way around. I am a diagnosed Narcissist. I was not diagnosed until I was 40. Once I learned what that was, and the tendencies that it brought to my personality, I didn't like it. I didn't want to be that way. Understanding that while I cannot control what my mental disorders make me feel, I certainly can control how I react to these feelings. So I have spent years learning how to act like a better person. I am proud of my progress and would like nothing better if other Narcissists would learn to do the same thing. But when I share my journey, I am seen as Autistic. "You're too nice of a person to be a Narcissist, you are probably Autistic." While I wouldn't be opposed to being Autistic instead of being a Narcissist, I am not. Comments like this negate the hard work I have put into acting like a better person in spite of having a disorder that wants me to be a nasty person. It's hard work suppressing a personality disorder. It's hard work feeling one way, recognizing that feeling as being a Narcissistic one, then acting contrary to that feeling. That's not normally how people work. Most people act on their feelings. I don't allow myself that luxury because I don't want to treat people badly. So, yes... armchair psychologists need to quit trying to lend their own diagnosis to those of us who have been diagnosed professionally and quit trying to tell us what we are and what we are not.
Last year l spent several weeks writing long emails back and fourth with a sociopath in Italy comparing her sociopathic experiences with my autistic ones. My conclusion by the end was that she was a far nicer person than l am and lm really not a bad person by any stretch. Because she was aware of her inclinations she actively sought to be a better person and l really think that she achieved that. We are all predetermined towards certain behaviours, but almost all of us still have the ability to shape who we become, it's just a difference in terms of the amount of effort required. So congrats on trying to be a better person.
I think your efforts are valiant, Tina. We have much in common. Those of us with ASD can certainly relate to you when it comes to spending most of our daily lives having to mask. It’s exhausting. I can also see why others may consider you to be on the spectrum, as I’m sure you already understand that a narcissist with a conscience must be rare, which I find very interesting. I salute you for all the hard work you put in so as not to hurt others, it’s something we have in common, but inevitably we do hurt others without meaning to, then beat ourselves up for putting our foot in it, once again. And so the cycle continues. I love that we have channels, such as Orion’s, where we can have open and candid conversations; shedding light on our mutual struggles.
@@cornishmaid9138 Actually... you have got me thinking. Funny enough... it was the having a conscience part. Maybe I'm not so rare. Maybe this is my narcissism evolving into another form. After all... you can catch more flies with honey. But, even if I am still feeding my narcissism this way, at least I'm not hurting other people feelings while I do it.
I have autism. I can't speak for everyone, but being autistic in itself isn't bad. But in the context of a society that doesn't understand, autism is absolutely traumatizing. In school. When the class read, " to kill a mockingbird", I acquire the nickname, boo Radley. When batman movies come out, I am suddenly " the joker". When th we re is a mass shooting, I get called whatever the name of the shooter is. This behavior is not limited to childhood/adolescence. I am in my forties and former classmates in the town I live still yell slurs at me when they see me in public.they stalk me and damage my property. My family takes part in the bullying by gaslighting. I have suffered with psychosis as a result. I have heard the term "uncanny valley" applied to autistic people, which I find simultaneously groundbreakingly insightful and so painful that it repulsed me. I think I need to find an autism group in which , hopefully, I will be safe and understood enough to process this. I have procrastinated finding such a group for fear that... what if rather then finding understanding, I only find more ostracization and stigmatisation. Sorry for dark subject matter.
Hello. Not a dark subject matter at all - this is the reality of autistic life. I only discovered I was autistic last year at the age of 51 and the past year has brought a lot of realisation to my life. I was bullied at school, but being female, not in the same way - I just didn't fit in with the other girls who revolve their lives around fashion and cliques. My home life in my teens was traumatic on a C-PTSD scale and after seven years of healing from trauma after a massive breakdown, I still felt weird, and so the autistic thing was the icing on the cake. So, like you, I was really wary of being rejected by more people who I thought might be my last hope - but please trust me when I say that this is a result of the trauma and the people you've been previously and currently surrounded by. My family judge me as a failure and dismiss anything I say. They all think I'm slightly mad for the beliefs I have, so instead I connect with groups online that either follow the same interests as me or align with my beliefs. They are not autistic groups, but there are a few people who don't class themselves as autistic but consider themselves as different to everyone else. And from what I can see, they are autistic but haven't explored that route and don't know. Not everyone in that group is my cup of tea but that's okay - it's not the same as school. I can have as much or as little to do with them as I choose. Not everyone is going to like you, but you might be surprised at the number who will. and if you've put up with that amount of bullying and gaslighting and you're still here, and you're still wanting to find connection rather than living like a hermit in the woods, then don't you see how strong you are? So many people live in the safety of the group because they are not strong enough to endure what you've been through. And that really doesn't mean they are happy with life, or that they feel understood, or "themselves". Be happy and proud for being you, and not being anyone else! xx
@@HotHeadCringe , hi. Thank you for your comment. About nts , they are surely not all bad. I was once told,"don't play chess with pigeons. They don't follow the rules, the crap all over the place, and they act like they are winning." Not all people are like that. The thing is, autistic people are like a magnet for bullies.
@@HotHeadCringe If I understand your comment correctly... it reflects the way I see energy. It's like being in the deep end of the pool all the time in interactions - frequently overwhelmed, sometimes drowning - but mainly through being in proximity to those who are just dipping their toes. I have found over the years that if I feel like I'm being brought down, I am not imagining it at all. I thought it was about me, but am now learning to create better boundaries in my life - Next! And Move On. On the other hand, on the simpler subjects, when I am not put in a place of competition or comparison and feel free to be myself and feel UP I can lift other people up too. The trick for me is in staying up and letting that energy beam out, but when I do, I get nice little surprises with the interactions I have and the right people start to show up. But then I'm a 52 year old woman, so it's a slightly different energy to manage as a general rule - different obstacles to men (and what I mean by that is that my experience is only my experience and you will have different way of navigating the world). The way we experience the world, feeling like we understand everything but finding it hard to explain when the others around us simply don't experience life that way - is it any wonder we can't find the words? I don't think that words are enough, or suitable, if that makes sense. Which is why I use so many, I guess. !!
My ex husband was a narcissist. The emotional abuse I suffered still affects me today (23 years since we divorced). I think narcissists are drawn to the Autistic community. They know we struggle with social cues and skills and use that to their advantage. Yes, I can be self-absorbed because I analyze and reanalyze interactions with others, especially ones that turned out badly. Grandiose ideas of myself: NEVER. I am very hyper-critical of myself.
Exact same thing here. I am on the Spectrum. I left my narcissistic husband 25 years ago. My mother was also a narcissist. I only began to understand recently that I am a magnet for narcissists.
It's when they do overlap that it gets really confusing. It's possible for someone to both be autistic and narcissistic. In addition, many people aren't aware of vulnerable narcissism, which is quite different from the stereotypical way we generally view narcissism. I wish there were a video on how to identify narcissism within someone's who is also autistic. 😔
Someone told me "you're not on the spectrum, you just are intelligent and overthink everything" and I just said "what about my self loathing, my mask wearing, my. Feeling of not being able to relate to anyone, my overwhelming of lack of acceptance, my struggle to change routines, my lack of being able to communicate clearly in public.
Yeah, over-analyzing! That's another good one! I do it all the time! As for mask wearing, I guess I could be accused of that sometimes. However, with me, it's usually more "what you see is what you get". I'm generally straight forward and honest to a fault . . . even when it's to my own detriment. Self loathing . . . I never really thought of how I criticize myself as being that, but I guess it is.
because fighting them only leads to me thinking negatively about it and that combines with other things in my brain perhaps depression, manic episodes, etc.
I get guilt thrown at me when I forget to consider some people in my life at specific times. My ADHD’s hyper focusing and poor executive functioning can cause others to think that I don’t care. Never mind the amount I do to show I care, it’s only the instances that I’m unaware that seem to matter. I care a lot but it’s honestly so much mental work feeling like I always have to consider these people first in everything I do as I can never be sure how it negatively affects them.
I’ve lost count of the times I’ve been called a narcissist or been told “ it’s not all about you “ when I have tried to show empathy. I can’t articulate very well and have tried to show it by relating to my own experience in some way which obviously isn’t the NT way of doing things so I have just stopped and now I appear just cold hearted which I don’t think I am. It’s really hard as there is no way there is anyone in this world who means less to me than I do , I loath being the focus of any attention it makes me want to crawl into a hole and hide ….Autistic people are the least likely in the universe to be narcissists
Oh my goodness, I do exactly the same as you, and the words "it's not all about you" brought back so many memories. There is a fine line between purely listening to someone else's issues and relating to our own stories and I have never found where that is either. I became a people pleaser and people have a tendency to trust me and offload. And even though I trained as a life coach and have turned a lot of things around myself, they still come back a week later and tell me " oh I spoke to x and he suggested this" and then proceed to reel off what I had said the week before. Happens every time. So, 1. People don't like the solution, they want to complain. And 2. It's not you. Not sure if you tend to be the type who likes to solve problems on your own (because you can't follow through on what other people think is a solution) but in ANY relationship, the balance needs to be equal give and take. And you need to be around people who will naturally not make you feel "less than" because that is far from true. Start focusing on your gifts and talents (even if you don't feel they are "functional" in this NT world - they matter, and You matter) and find new people who appreciate what you have to give. Start to notice the patterns more in conversation and learn to recognise what people want a little sooner each time. It's definitely not you. Big hugs 🤗
I just wrote a whole long bit on how many of us autistics display empathy differently and get told we’re engaging in one-upmanship and are narcissistic. Neurotypicals completely miss the mark about why we do what we do, which is out of an abundance of caring.
@@NothingByHalves I just lifted a bit of my separate comment on this topic and thought I’d share a part of it (please ignore the all caps as I was being shouty as I feel so shouty about this). “When someone tells us something that has gone on or is going on in their life, we’ll relay an experience that evoked a similar emotion. WE DO THIS TO LET THE OTHER PERSON KNOW THAT THEY’RE NOT ALONE, THEY’RE NOT STRANGE OR WEIRD FOR FEELING THE WAY THEY ARE, THAT SOMEONE ELSE HAS SOME IDEA OF THE FEELINGS THEY ARE EXPERIENCING. What we get told is that we’re engaging in one-upmanship…. “If I share something emotional with you and you simply sit there validating my feelings and cooing at me, making all of the “right” neurtotypical empathetic responses, keeping the focus on me, I will think I am being judged or pitied by you or that you’re not really paying any attention (I’ve seen neurotypicals fake attention and caring with each other) and that you’re just going through the motions to placate me. The ONLY WAY I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU GOT WHAT I SAID IS IF YOU SHARE SOMETHING SIMILAR. That is how I experience empathy.”
@@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS Yes! That's totally spot on!! If I share a problem with someone, and they express what they've been through and how it felt, then I know they're not placating me or dismissing how I feel. Very well expressed 🥰🤗 I've just spent the afternoon having a debate with someone who kept referring to "curing Autism" when I expressed very clearly that the microbiome can be healed to reduce sensitivity, but the way we are and the way we think doesn't need to be cured. We are disabled by our environment and the people around us, and nothing more. Unfortunately he wasn't there to have a dialogue, but enjoyed being contentious to wind everyone up. How refreshing to read your comment - thoughtful, insightful, wise, and totally on point! Big hugs 🤗
Can anyone relate to this: I am so preoccupied with making sure that nobody around me feels bad that I will do things like (for example) deliberately lose at board games or card games because I don't want anyone else to feel bad that they lost. Sometimes, I feel terrible about myself for days when I lose at games (I take it as a reflection of my overall competence in the world) and it doesn't even occur to me that not everybody has that same reaction. I will try to protect people from negative experiences that they won't even have. I guess I do lack theory of mind. I don't understand that not everybody reacts to things in the same way that I do.
It's all pretty normal for autistic people. I can remember being at a gathering with a girl friends family and the mum was making everyone play party games. One of them was a simple memory game where there were thirty items in a box and you were meant to remember as many as you could then after a delay write them down. Of course l remembered all thirty and thought nothing of it given my memory back then was pretty good. After, the mum started asking how many people got various ranges but never asked if anyone got all thirty so l just stayed quiet. The gf asked how many l got and informed her mum but to be honest l didn't care, l didn't think it was at all impressive and it almost felt like l was cheating because l knew l had a pretty exceptional memory at that point and that it wasn't fair for the others. Simply put l was ruining the game by being too good at it and that was common to a lot of things in life, including many sports. These days l can spend 5 minutes looking for my car keys only to realise l had them in my hand the whole time, so easy come easy go l guess 🤦 It's really odd that so many of us think this way, but we get embarrassed by being bad at things we think we should do better at, think nothing of being exceptionally good at things others struggle with and feel guilty for things we really shouldn't be. The last couple of years l have taken to a very different and odd way of seeing myself. I grew up being told how intelligent l was yet l failed at so many things l thought l should do easily which in turn left me feeling horrible. So l flipped it, l now think of myself as being incredibly stupid and it has been amazingly liberating to do so. I don't see it as a negative, l just embraced the idea and the effect has been to dramatically lower the bar. Now l can feel much happier about relatively minor successes and not feel terrible when l don't score in the top 5%. Prior to thinking lm completely stupid l was always held back by the fear of failure, so l would never attempt anything if l thought l might not be the best at it. It's weird, it's exactly what most people would think is destructive, but it works for me.
@@Jake12220 I don't think I would have gotten ALL thirty, but close. ;-) I relate to most of what you said. Although it wasn't originally my first choice and I actually got accepted to all three schools to which I applied, I opted for a university where we got written evaluations rather than grades-good thing because my life didn't go as I expected and the grades I would have earned in some classes would have killed me, better to have short explications of all the elements of my performance. Intelligence isn't just a score. I'm glad you found a mindset that has freed you from the burden of overachievement and the corollary inability to live up to your own standards at all the other things.
@@Jake12220 That's fascinating and I can totally see how it works to think of yourself as stupid and then celebrate your successes. Highly intelligent ASD people (inc my kids and I) constantly fail to match up to expectations. The answer is to delete the expectations and substitute something completely different as you have. Excellent policy there. I'm glad you are coping better after finding such a good solution.
@@Jake12220 playing sports is one of mu special interests, it does suck to have a love for it and alienate yourself from having fun with people because youre obviously taking it easy. They dont like it
@@cory99998 l never really cared about sport. I hated playing most team sports because l really didn't like relying on others and while l was good at things like running and track and field my ball handling abilities were pretty shit. It's good that you have a passion for something, regardless of what it is, it's just great having something you know you like doing.
Narcissism is one of the tools some people use for dealing with Autism. When you spend your whole life being bullied for 'being different', one of the ways people cope is by saying 'their differences make them inferior to me. I am better, not different'. Inside it's completely different. One is a coping strategy for bulling, the other is a feeling of being better, but on the outside it can appear the same.
The thing is, it’s also not impossible to be both. The person in my life who I watch videos like this to understand, is simultaneously empathetic and selectively cruel, lacking complete empathy. They’re also simultaneously social and antisocial. They see no value in real life friendships or “unnecessary relationships,” but do value connections that bring them status, and ones that feed their need to appear better than others. They prey on internet strangers, verbally attacking them like a game, yet claim that texting/communicating socially with the people closest to them is an unnecessary confusing task, that they don’t see the point in. They are charismatic and a former school teacher, and have even run for political office. They claim to be autistic, but do not have a diagnosis. Many of the the common autistic traits are certainly present with them, but so is the cruelty and manipulation of npd. They are verbally and emotionally abusive, but claim that they’re not, that they’re just being autistic, and that the person being abused is not being accommodating of their “autistic”way of expressing themselves, and is being too sensitive. I’m not a doctor, but I do have an undergrad in psych, and have read every book I could get my hands on in the past 15 years about personality disorders as well as autism. I confidently believe that it’s possible to be autistic and also have npd.
Dear Orion, I'm 77 years old. I've known for decades that I have "some autistic characteristics". Your videos have helped me to learn, without doubt, that I am autistic. It's been a revelation that has relieved a very deep level of anxiety. Now I understand far more about how & why I can relate better to my world. THANK YOU! Sincerely, LTB
Thanks for making this. This “autism is like narcissism” and “autistics have narcissistic traits” BS have been flying around lately and it’s infuriating as hell, and there are several RU-vid channels and “doctors” who actively spread it. It’s like no, autism and narcissism are no where near the same, and you did a good job explaining why and how.
Even before connecting the dots that I’m autistic I disliked the overuse of the label narcissist because I often see people knee jerk labeling when they feel slighted and taken advantage of and it generally is harmful for all involved.
Yeah but we do. Examples. If you go into emotional shutdown without communication that thats whats happening, it looks identical to npd silent treatment. We have coping tactics that flat out on the surface look identical AND hurt our partners the same way unless we have communicated whats going on.
@@lizericsonn9367 This does not mean we are narcissistic. However "similar" these traits appear to the neurotypicals is only their interpretation and it is not factual. Whatever coping tactics(e.g "shutting down") we use are for the express purpose of managing stress and overwhelming emotions, especially in social situations. Whether or not we "communicate" depends on what communication is defined as by neurotypicals and how an Autistic person communicates. We mask and bottle up because expressing our emotions might lead to stigma and misunderstanding from NTs - This is part of the coping srategies we employ to deal with daily stressors. On the other hand; NPDs usage of silent treatment and other tactics are deliberatly malicious or manipulative and are part of a campaign to seek power, authority or control people for their sole benefit. It's clear you cannot tell the difference between Austitics and people with NPD. Do not contribute to this hateful narrative.
I'm glad a RU-vidr said it. Us Autistics are sadly quite vulnerable to Narcissistic Abuse. I was in a really bad relationship with a Narcissist, and they used all of this stuff to hurt me and manipulate me... I tried to end my life because of it.
🫂 It's scary how autists are so vulnerable to people with NPD... Yikes, The feeling that I could end with a narcissist if I'm not careful scares the crap out of me.
Thank you for clarifying this so well. While a narcissistic person craves interaction, because they know how to, and love getting people's attention, for us it's exhausting, because even showing a slight bit of yourself will suddenly offput people. Them saying we're charismatic really shows how little they know, cause all people think is i'm a weirdo lol
I think it’s important to understand that people with NPD have pretty much always experienced dreadful neglect or abuse in their early years and their narcissism is a consequence of that. Although it’s wise to be cautious with such people they also deserve our compassion.
When you say that honesty is how you convey kindness I never realized it but that is exactly right. That's how I get myself in trouble so much and I never understand it. I was diagnosed 3 months ago with tourette's and autism and I'm 34. Thank you for what you do on this channel I've been watching several RU-vid channels about autism lately and I've gotta say your channel is now my favorite. Im glad I found this community and keep doing what your doing bc it's easy to understand autism better the way that you explain it. Thank you
Oh I may not recover from your video either, there's a lump in my throat that really hurts. Being Autistic hurts. But it's who I am. No filter, they laughingly say. I can't watch the news, it makes me cry. I have asked myself if I'm a narcissist. The answer is no. I care too much. My brain is different. Still trying to accept that. Thank you for your passion for us.
I can't watch the news either. Or charity adverts. Or anything I haven't watched a million times before, in case someone experiences any level of emotional or physical pain! Makes discovering new things quite difficult... Your brain is different but so beautful in its own unique way. I am honoured to share the same universe as it!
I love your rants cause you make me feel so sane and I feel the same as you. NT people are emotionally lazy and don’t make the effort to a) understand what a narcissist it and b) how autistic people struggle with interpersonal relationships and social interactions. Its so very tiring!
Amazing explanation! This helps us understand how someone can be mislabeled even by psychologists or psychiatrists for being self-focused, grandiose, or not interested in other’s feelings. What others may try to label narcissistic, ODD, anxious, manipulative, adhd, etc. could just be misunderstood autism. People say “spectrum” and then expect you to fall into a few specific extreme symptoms.
Maybe it's just my experience, but I think many neurotypicals mistake my anger/meltdown with narcissism. Because this is usually the point where I'm no longer interested in discussion because I've been pushed into my feeling state - which is entirely irrational. I don't want to talk to anyone when I'm upset. I will do my best to avoid further conversation - even if this means lying by saying something mean. Because this forces the other person to give me the space I need to process the conversation in a healthy way. I feel like neurotypicals don't understand that forcing me into something is never going to reward them with the outcome they want. And not because I don't want them to get what they want either. But you can't expect someone to be able to process your words when you're doing it in a manner that's causing bell and whistles to go off while the building shakes and crumbles around them. Because it shifts my attention to the most obvious priority, which is avoiding impending catastrophe. And while that may sound like a really dramatic metaphor, that's exactly how it feels. I care deeply about the people in my life. But communication is a two way street and I shouldn't be the one who is always compromising and then being pushed into a meltdown. I feel like many neurotypicals try very little and expect a whole lot. It's entitlement. And so, from my perspective, that is true narcissism. And for the record, I've not once thought you are narcissistic or display any signs of being egotistical. You strike me as informed. You're clearly trying to help the autistic community by setting parameters for healthy communication. I assume your son is dealing with many issues, and so you're needing to reframe concepts to help him get through obstacles. And that's just great RU-vid content. I would also assume that doing this helps you cool off if he's being a bit difficult. Or, if you're struggling with your own issues you get a chance to process that with us. And frankly, it's all helpful. I show my partner your videos regularly. And she thinks you're very sweet and likes the way you present topics. So, you're helping me and my partner learn ways to navigate our relationship. That's a win. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Just remember, some people will come to this comment section and avoid educating themselves even while they're face-to-face with a learning opportunity. People who persist, falsely, under the belief that autism isn't a real condition, aren't looking to belong here. So, as hard as it is, don't let them get the best of you!
I really hate that l do the same, the horrible comment just so l can get away from a situation lm not coping with. It sometimes amazes me what can come out of my mouth, like there is some hidden part of my mind that remembers the person's most deep seated insecurity and uses it to come up with the most hurtful statement possible just so they will stop talking to me or let me leave.
This is exactly what happens with me, and what some people make of it. My boyfriend often says, “Tell me what’s wrong.” Or, “Tell me what you’re feeling right now.” It drives him nuts when I say I need to wait, and discuss it when I’m not so emotional. I think he has learned it’s for the best, when he pressed me a few times. You don’t want to deal with me when I am compelled to interact. I don’t think there is anything wrong with preferring to reflect before we speak. It’s just a different way of processing information. My mom, unfortunately, has severe ADHD, and my disingenuous insults, when space-seeking, bounce right off her. I could curse her out, while growling and telling her to leave, and she probably would not notice I don’t want to talk. And what I really mean is she doesn’t notice. People are aghast at how I “treat” my mom, but they don’t see her interrupt me 10 times a sentence and shout over my every word. Or the amount of food smacking, finger piano playing, and general chaos she (self-righteously and judgmentally) brings to my environment. She let children and adults bully me for years, even rallying them to do so, but I forgive her for this. We are very incompatible neurotypes. It hurts me to have to say extreme things to make her understand I need to be alone, and am hurt, and even those do not work. Yes, I have tried respectfully asking. She just stays in my face, like a yippy dog (not being demeaning.. she strongly identifies with dogs).
@@sciencenotstigma9534 bizarrely it sounds like you know exactly how many NT guys feel when their gf or wife keeps demanding they talk about things when all they want is to get away and process their thoughts. Honestly it's a big part of domestic abuse that really needs to be talked about more, it's not an excuse for a guy hitting their partner, but so many of those conflicts would be avoidable if more women understood most guys just need to be able to walk away and come back later after they have calmed down. Trying to force guys to talk about something they aren't ready to talk about just leads to outbursts and aggression. Seems like the same is true of your relationship with your mum, but a lot of autistic traits are somewhat like exaggerated versions of traits traditionally assigned to males. Personally l found my life improved a lot when l stopped trying to forgive most people, but also to not hate anyone for anything. If someone in my life was toxic then l removed them from it as much as l could, l essentially deleted them from my existence(physical interaction where possible and completely from thoughts or care factor). Sadly that's probably not possible in the case of you and your mum, but learning to not forgive can lead to learning it's not your job to try to fix the relationship or the person. Sometimes letting go of something that's broken is far better than trying to fix it. Still, l hope you have taken some time to learn about ADHD and it's many problems. You mum might just be a horrible person regardless, but it's likely the ADHD has had a big impact on her behaviour. If you can understand why she behaves in certain ways it may become easier to accept or possibly avoid the worst of the behaviours.
@@Jake12220 Thanks! That’s great advice. I completely agree that my mom’s behavior has more to do with my mom’s ADHD than her intentions. One thing that irks me is that she isn’t very intentional in her approach. It’s not enough to “not try” to hurt others…one must intentionally avoid it. Yet, I know there are laid back men who she has gotten along with well (my late stepdad, for example). We just aren’t very compatible, as a parent and child. It sucks that you can’t pick your parents (New Age philosophy, aside). When I talk about the childhood stuff, it brings me back to a time when I felt hated and abused by her. Now I know that she really had no idea she was hurting me with the sensory overstimulation, or “teasing” me with my friends. Intellectually, I do. I realize she thought the teasing was good-natured fun, for the most part. She has admitted she resented my difference, and what she thought of as my demands. She thought of me as more like her abusive dad. He told her not to talk with her mouth full, to be still, quiet, etc. I was rigid for a different reason…just trying to stop it from feeling like a train was tearing through my brain. At the same time, I’m not sure how her dad felt, or if that is also part of a typical masculine personality. I was a little kid and not aiming to control anyone, nor did I have the power to. I do go back to that powerless place in my mind when she is overwhelming me and not listening, and I don’t want to behave as I did then. I am bigger and capable of harm, today…particularly, emotional harm. She is more dependent and vulnerable, now. Two wrongs have never made a right. Most interpersonal conflict is not about wrong or right, anyway. I have to remind myself that she has difficulty with attending, comprehension, impulse control, and working memory. She may not be choosing not to listen. She certainly has strengths I don’t, such as flexibility and tolerance (of people more similar to her). This discussion has made me seriously consider seeking other accommodations for her, not to abandon her but because I think we would both do better. I would visit often, as I have in the past. I’m not a bitter person. Sometimes, as you implied, you have to remove yourself from a situation to be calm and rational about it. I gave some of the minor examples I did, at the risk of looking like a complete a**, for the sake of accuracy. With neurotypes like ours, it is as likely to be the little things as “important” ones that are triggering. I do see commonalities. I also see distinctions between NPD and ASD. I prefer that they be understood as separate conditions, for the sake of accuracy. I don’t stigmatize NPD. Our hardwiring doesn’t determine our potential. I have studied Special Education (LD/EBD), though I have moved on to a Psychology Masters, after 3 years of teaching. I take as many Neurobiology classes as I can. It has been, probably, more helpful than therapy. I have still seen therapists, for a more objective take. Thanks for sharing yours! You have a lot of insights about your condition, and the human condition. I think we are each at the diagnostic end of a continuum, but that many people have Narcissistic traits and sensory integration quirks (or ASD traits). There is certainly some overlap. For some with ASD, difficulty interpreting others’ emotions does affect our ability to feel and, show empathy for, individuals. You have to know what people are feeling to empathize well. As love is a verb, so is being empathetic. My son’s autistic friend cried, when his therapist told him he hurt my young son by pushing him. His parents said this was a breakthrough, for him. He learned empathy, but I can’t say his ability to empathize was well developed, prior to that. I have had similar experiences, and was very distraught to learn I had hurt someone, or failed to help them. It still keeps me awake at night to recall these errors. I’m not sure if you experience exaggerated remorse, and that’s not really mine to speak on…just sharing my experience of ASD. You are breaking stereotypes with your conscientiousness. Some people I’ve known, with NPD, give more thought to values and principles than most people. I spend a lot of time analyzing social phenomena. For me, it is compensation, which is not a negative concept. It reflects the brain’s incredible tendency toward balance.
@@Jake12220 I don’t know why I read that as NPD, not NT! Strike all that, and any implication that you have, or were referring to, NPD! I read your comment in the Notifications only, not in context. I also have vision problems I need to get back in about!
A topic very close to heart- my mom always called my dad a narcissist and I was afraid I was changing into one- turns out we were just autistic and my mom was projecting her own narcissism onto us! Thank you for making this video!!
@@eni-mk314 Projecting is what narcissists do. When they're accusing you of things, they're usually telling you the the truth about what they are actually doing. That's the gaslighting part of it. Three rules that have kept me safe and away from narcissists ever since I got out from my abusive household are these: 1. Never let anyone dictate to you who you are, what you feel, or what your actions mean (unless you already happened to agree). You know yourself best! Asking others to provide you with their views on you is okay- but when it comes to matters of identity, that is something you have to build for yourself. Narcissists will try to destroy your sense of self, to mold you into what they want you to be. Don't let that happen! 2. Hurt is hurt, no matter what reason or intent. Set boundaries according to the consquences of the behavior committed. You can sympathize with an explanation but you are to never diminish your own emotions because someone had a good excuse for the actions/things said that ended up hurting you. Respect yourself and grant yourself the kindness and compassion you grant others. 3. A good apology includes an acknowledgement of your hurt feelings, an acknowledgement of the actions committed that hurt you, a promise to do better and then actual changed behavior. You can teach someone how to apologize well but if they don't care to learn or they pretend they do but keep overstepping your boundaries anyways? Leave.
Thank you so much for this video. In your anger and passion, I found validation and healing. It felt like you entered some of my bad memories and stood up for me. It's so hard when you try to act out of care and empathy for another person, and they take it and twist it as though you're narcissistic. You feel so alienated. As though your intentions don't matter, just because they weren't shown in a way that made sense for them. Compassion needs to come from both sides.
I've heard a couple of people diagnosed with autism express concern that they might be narcissists. As a likely autistic person myself (can't get diagnosed bc mental health care resources are almost non-existent in my area), I sympathize with them. It seems that some of us take the time to study how NT people interact with each other, and get pretty good at imitating that in order to mask or to fit in. But because it feels like an act rather than a natural response, it's easy to believe those who label us with NPD. Thanks for the video! It's super helpful to have the differences listed in detail.
yep l can remember asking my psychiatrist long ago if l was a narcissist given some of the similarities, but no, clearly not. As for imitating the behaviour, its called masking and is a standard coping mechanism for most autistic people. Some of us are much better at it then others, but yes it is always kind of fake even once we start doing it automatically. If l don't get enough alone time l can start to wonder who l really am, what's the masking and what's really me.
@@Jake12220 My therapist laughed when I told him someone called me a narcissist and said I was the furtherest from being a narcissist as I could be. (Heck, I’m usually, like most autistic people, hyper critical about myself-examining my behavior, motives, etc. while trying to walk my talk / live my values.)
@@IExpectedBSJustNotThisMuchBS yep, there is a massive difference, yet from the outside it isn't always obvious. I can remember a conversation with a girl l was working with. She was complaining about one of the other girls who was narcissistic and talking about all her bad behaviours, to which l just replied with a look, to which she replied yeah but when you do it it's funny. It's so understandable why most autistic people have issues with language, especially body language and social cues, the line between good and bad or funny and offensive can be incredibly subtle. I'm sure there would have been people I've met that would have thought l was narcissistic or conceited, yet like you it wouldn't be remotely true. People who know me of course know better, but l couldn't begrudge someone for coming to a false conclusion if they haven't really had a chance to get to know me.
I lived with a narcissist for 27 years and my autistic spouse now is nothing like it. I know any thing my autistic guy does is not from a heart of harm.
I'm a neurotypical that is married (though separated) to a man with Autism. We have one child, a 11 year old girl who is also autistic. My marriage has been a very difficult one, but ultimately it led to a therapist recognizing my husband's autism at 41 years old, and that was such a relief to him and I. It allowed us to finally understand why things have been the way that they were. I really appreciate your video. During the course of therapy over several years, it had been suggested that my husband was a narcissist. I always knew in my gut that it was not true. This video very eloquently speaks to what my heart knew was true all the time. Though my husband and I are not together, I will always care about him deeply, and we both love our daughter deeply. I am very passionate about learning more about autism, so that I can understand these two amazing people, and advocate for others like them.
I was raised by a narcissistic father. I know I’m nothing like him. He showed me the exact opposite of how you should parent. I really love your videos. You are so well spoken. 🤗🤗🤗
Yes it's a type of intimacy. But you do have to learn that people can't always accept every kind of honesty. And so in situations where you're honestly relaying something negative it may be a good idea to decide whether or not it needs to be said.
I had a narcissistic parent; I am pretty sure I’m autistic and my son has been diagnosed as autistic. Trust me that they are two different things. I think NPD has become a buzzword situation due to recent geopolitical situations and as such random internet trolls use it without knowing what it truly is. Thank you for this video. I’ve been binge watching your videos and it’s helping me understand my son and my childhood
I think there's a tendency to confuse narcissism as a personality trait with NPD. Not all narcissism is equal to NPD and in some contexts it's more a matter of development. Some of those tendencies are viewed as immature because children are prone to them, but narcissism of that sort would seem likely to persist if one's development is either delayed or 'spiky'.
No it’s not. I have asked myself that many times. If I need space alone to be the best person I can be, then there’s nothing selfish about that. Otherwise my brain can’t function at all, I can’t listen, I can’t think or talk, and what’s the point in being totally useless when someone needs me?
I’m so glad I found this channel. I relate strongly with your experiences, and feel validated knowing that others are struggling with exactly the same thing. It was about a year ago (at 46) that I figured out I have ASD, and despite being told by a psychiatrist and my therapist that that was a solid self-diagnosis, I still worry it’s all in my head and it’s not actually a neurological condition. There was a point I actually worried I might be a narcissist because I have such an inward focus and often have a really hard time getting out of my own head. Some people make me feel like I’m making this up, but why on earth would someone pretend to be autistic!?!? It’s not like you really gain anything by pretending you’re on the spectrum. Why would I want to place a stigma on myself that could undo all the hard work I put into making it in this very weird, confusing world? In any case, listening to you describe so many things that sound like they came right out of my own life has made me feel like I’m not alone. Thanks for doing what you do!
Wishing one was autistic rather than a narcissist...I do know one person...his self interest in making every situation benefit him..ensuring he always comes out on top and "profits"...he does not like it when people are onto his narcissism....so trys to "sell" he is in fact Autistic
I have been struggling for years to understand my ex, and the pain she has inflicted. My mother was also a narcissist plain and simple. I am sympathetic with your desire to separate autism from narcissism, and I am interested in your perspective. Respectfully, there are multiple forms of narcissism (covert, grandiose, malignant, communal) and you describe (somewhat glibbly) but one type. Second, to be diagnosed (DSM-5) the patient has to report trouble with those symptoms. Given the nature of the disorder, it is unlikely that any NPD would actually self report. Narcissism (without PD) is generally NOT actually a clinical diagnosis. As to why I am here, I have struggled for 15 years to understand and come to peace with my memories of my ex, and to guide my daughter who was abused by her mother. (Who among other things filed false police reports alleging spousal violence and absurdly parental alienation) I am trying too help my daughter rebuild her self esteem, and understanding of what she has been through. Videos such as this convince me that her mother had significant autistic traits (my understanding... not a diagnosis). She also clearly did some things that were clearly narcissistic. Plainly, there has been, and never will be any diagnosis. Where there is a cross over (to me) is with autistic masking, and narcissism which is a shame based masking. My ex always blamed me for everything, and denied everything. Was it narcissistic masking or shamebased denial? Who knows? Who cares? The fact that you have a channel openly talking about your autistic struggles makes the suggestion of your narcissism pretty absurd. There are on the other hand people who engage in shame based masking who might more easily pass for a narcissist. And of course, never rule out the possibility that some narcissists are on the autistic spectrum. I would also suggest that the most likely form of narcissism for someone on the autistic spectrum would be a covert narcissist, not the grandiose as you have described. For my part, thank-you for your willingness to speak out
I cannot thank you enough for this. The damage caused by this misconception has taken a toll on my Autistic son’s life as well as on me, as I support him. I am so grateful to people like you speaking out. I cannot wait to share your channel with him when he is ready to watch. 😊
I usually try to assume when someone says you’re a narcissist, it says more about them than it does the intended recipient. I’ve stopped bothering to explain or defend myself and just let others think what they want; if they really cared to better understand, they can always ask because I’m not going to waste time trying to get people to see my side when they probably don’t care anyhow
Seriously everytime someone calls me that I take a look at there life and people pleasing need to feel liked by me and others and see hmmmmm oh right so you're the one trying to control things but in a way that isn't so obvious It's not others job to love you. It's Your job to love you. Trying to get others to like us is an UNwinnable game that only scores once in a blue moon. We truly can only consistently love ourselves bc We are the only ones always with ourselves
I could cry. I needed this video so much. Thank you. Serendipitous timing, for I was mistakenly laboring over adding NPD to my list of diagnoses. I badly needed the reminder and comparison. I figured out for myself a mere few years ago that I'm on the autism spectrum. When I run checklists of symptoms, I always check all or nearly all of the boxes. However I was raised by a narcissist mother and early in life I believed some of her crap and picked up her lessons by example-despite her frequently saying, "Do as I say, not as I do." I did pretty well unlearning a lot over the decades. Then all my cumulative baggage, enhanced by not having any formal diagnoses (Bipolar Depression II, CPTSD, HDHD, Autism*) until my mid 30s and by 40 still not having found the right medication combo, crossed some threshold. I'd repeatedly experienced work burnout, cranking through jobs, and simply couldn't work for other people any longer, had an emotional meltdown. After a few years of that, just as I was emotionally regaining my feet sufficient that I might have managed to reenter the labor market: the worst year of my and my housemates' lives, which for me started with cancer and extensive chemotherapy and ended with my dog died. She had been my constant companion for 12 years (except in the hospital, which took an enormous toll on her). Had I believed in an afterlife and not dealt with the ramifications of my father's suicide when I was ten years old, I absolutely would have offed myself at that moment. It was sheer will that I did not-that's how much I loved and relied on her. So now, ten years cancer- and dog-free, I've lately established new contacts with a psychiatrist and a psychotherapist rather than rely on my GP for continuing my meds. I've watched many hours of videos from reputable mental health care practitioners and some fellow persons living with similar neural types. Analyzing my mother to better understand myself (as well as finally coming to terms with the truth that I will never be able to change her and should not try), I had begun to see myself as possibly being a narcissist, as well-trying to be in recovery. That's a paradox. THIS video reminded me to acknowledge my autism, which I actually had forgotten to consider because it's the one thing for which I've never had any formal recognition or treatment. Heck, the BDII and CPTSD are for certain, but maybe the ADHD is overkill. I learned from having an abusive narcissist mother not to poke into other persons' business and thus have a tendency to focus on my own issues and stories, even though I'd rather hear others', so that comes across as my being self-centered when in truth it's just my attempt at conversation-flailing at times. Like nearly all autistics, I don't like small talk and I'm brutally honest. I was a narcissist parent's nightmare, and she made sure she was mine. I'm not a narcissist. I simply learned how to interact with the world from one. It's a constant effort when life is dark not to revert to those childhood behaviors I consciously unlearned. I have a strong interest in Jungian-based theories, as well, to illuminate how environment leads a person to express personality under different conditions. I'm a solid INFJ. Again, a nightmare for my mother. Possibly for my brother, as well-he triggers me to want to have little contact in the same way as my mom, so I suspect he's NPD but I can't even unprofessionally diagnose him based on scant interaction. Anyway, long post, mostly for my own benefit. I'm fourth youngest of 32 first cousins on my father's side, several of whom I never met. I know there is a lot of CPTSD among us, but I do see a pattern of asperbergers-ish autism as well, a few with true savant skill sets. Having done a lot of genealogy, I also see patterns of artistic talent and religious fervor. Via my father's mother I know of severe depression, as well. So it should come as no surprise that I got the genes that can manifest as these various conditions, certainly as expressed after surviving such mental and emotional abuse in childhood. It's also easy to get carried away with labeling my self-analysis as vain and narcissistic, especially my vocalization. I'm also reading others' comments and find myself nodding a great deal. I hope everybody is finding as much comfort and relief from Orion's videos. It means a lot to be able to relate, to empathize, to feel somebody understands.
From an internal point of view there are dramatic differences, but from an external point of view the differences can seem minor, especially for people that don't know you well or who don't understand autism well. While it can be an annoying problem for people with ASD, it's also an understandable conclusion by many people. That said, it should not be considered a reasonable conclusion from people who should know better, people like doctors, psychologists and psychiatrists.
People love labels especially when they have the opportunity to assign those labels to others. It’s a lazy approach as it allows them to define someone without ever investing time or compassion. They don’t consider that their unqualified opinions may be harmful.
Yeah this hurts me the most. Having been misdiagnosed as Borderline before finally being diagnosed on the spectrum had absolutely devastating effects on my life, still haunting me today.
A lot of women are misdiagnosed Borderline or Bipolar. (And indeed some people have more than one diagnosis.) Both can arise from trauma and many of us autistics have CPTSD. Indeed, people with CPTSD get misdiagnosed as Borderline or Bipolar.
Great vid! Nailed it! “Hate speech”! I’m the “curl up and take it” type. Was officially diagnosed. But, still trying to climb out of the decades of beats downs. It reminds me of a saying we learned in the Army, “The beatings will continue until morale improves”! Now I have less years ahead of me than behind me. Got to figure out how to get out of this abyss now! Hoping to live the remains years better! Keep the great vids coming!
Definitely not talked about enough, thank you so much for this much needed video. Keep spreading awareness, your channel has helped me so much! Many blessings to you and your family ❤
The over riding experience for me in social interactions is feeling lost. Not knowing if I'm in the right place. Not knowing when to talk. Not knowing if I should. How I should stand. Where is my wife (my rock). And bottom line. Is there a way to be accepted or even to hold just one person's attention
What you are saying matches my experience. Problem is not absence of emotion, it is being OVERWHELMED by emotions, but at a loss to know how to interpret them and respond (especially if it has to be in real time) in a way that others can understand, in other words there is a barrier that works in both directions, as you perceptively pointed out.
Not to be downer but to answer your first question as to why. I think behavior that shares markers with Cluster B personality types are all being seen as just “narcissism” these days. I saw a TikTok a while back of a therapist complaining about her Cluster B patients calling them “difficult” and “the only patients I’ll complain about to my colleagues”. That “difficultly” in personality is seen as toxic and therefore “narcissistic” to those with RU-vid and TikToc degrees in psychology. And it’s not helping that some doctors are going public with their true feelings. Stevejoe (although an ER doctor) is an excellent example of this hyper negative hate-filled vitriol towards patients. Ironic how the autistic deals with masking while the general public and even doctors these days are unmasking their true feelings with fervency and pride. The saddest of off is when the parents take on this mindset towards their own autistic children again labeling them as “difficult” and writing long Reddit posts about how they now hate their lives and hate their kids. My cousin is autistic and his brother and his father make fun of him all the time right to his face and then complain about him behind his back. And my cousin is VERY mellow and even he gets shit about his autism.
To be fair, there are reasons why cluster b disorders can be considered 'difficult'. Most people diagnosed with most disorders can be helped to deal with their issues. ASD for instance benefits greatly from therapy. But, people with cluster b personality disorders are frequently unable to accept that they have a problem. Part of the disorders themselves is often the inability to accept that their actions and behaviours led to the outcomes and instead they will often put the blame on others for their actions. For a therapist this can be extremely frustrating, they may as well be bashing their head against a brick wall because unless the client can accept that they are the root cause of their problems then nothing will help them. Now there certainly are people with cluster b disorders that do accept their issues and learn to take responsibility for their actions and behaviours and they often go on to be lovely people, but the majority never will.
@@Jake12220 Borderline PD are highly motivated toward recovery. Which makes sense, coming as they do from traumatic histories. But Cluster B's are, like autism all "ego-syntonic" disorders, and that'a a big hurdle to overcome if they're gonna make way toward behavioral health. The ego-syntonic among us are perfectly in sync with their self (as this video demonstrates) regardless of any problems, impairments or chaos the disorder creates in their lives. They externalize blame. This can be hell on their loved ones, who can become targets of unremitting condemnation.
Narcissists are social experts. They take to social interactions like fish to water. I think we as autists are more likely to fall prey to narcissistic abuse. They single us out because of our compassion and the fact that they can easily isolate us from other people, so that the narcissistic person becomes our only contact with the outside world, and that we believe that they are our only, or one of very few (which is usually the case anyway) safe people we can trust: our lifeline, when they are in fact our deathline. My second wife was a psychopath, psychopathy being a form (perhaps the most extreme) of narcissism. If your only safe person is giving you the silent treatment or saying you are worthless (when this is what you feel about yourself anyway because of what you've experienced throughout life) it's not very nice.
Autism or ASD and Narcissism or NPD are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to be autistic and narcissistic at the same time. Although, both neurotypical and autistic individuals can become narcissistic, but autistics are more vulnerable to NPD due to their neurological differences.
On the contrary though you may see the logical side and assume that's all there is most autistic social interactions are based off learned experience or empathy. Young people are the best example of this, though an autistic kid can have difficulties in communication once they have that worked out they are on a average More empathetic than their neurotypical peers and more likely to resolve conflict if possible. In stark contrast to cluster B personality disorders that tend towards conflict because it benefits them regardless of damage caused. And let's not forget the elephant in the room of c-ptsd that don't dampen empathy but teaches that you have to pretend to be "normal" to survive from a young age usually teaches you to hide excess empathy behind logic, may look like a cluster B personality to a careless observer that doesn't look further than looking for "fakeness".
@@chey7691 Not all cluster B disorders lack empathy. In the case of NPD, some empathy is required to make it viable behavioral pattern. If all empathy was lacking, it would be closer to antisocial disorder. Those two can be comorbid in same individual. So the presence of empathy in a person does not rule out NPD.
@@borninussr7242 it does not rule it out entirely, but it is more rare in autistic people over all due to conflicting traits. Correlation between traits is not causation of conditions.
@@chey7691I fail to see how you can conclude that autistic people are less likely to have NPD when compared to NTs. Are you basing it on an assumption of autistics having more empathy? How do you measure levels of empathy in people? In my view, it can't be measured, because you have to rely on your observations and those can be misleading. My statement regarding autistics being more vulnerable to NPD was based on underlying neurological differences, not amount or presence or absence of empathy. For example, communication and social deficits can create necessary conditions for NPD, because NPD is a defense mechanism.
I am autistic and spending time with an autistic guy, people mix us up with npd because we have some outward appearing bad coping traits. You know the difference between withdrawal and the silent treatment used for control? The autistic person knowing they need to communicate what is happening. Do you know what the difference between not knowing we are not meeting needs or expected to, and ignoring needs? The other person knowing the autistic person does not know. I am Autistic and I have spent twenty plus years working in behavioural intervention for pre cluster b teenagers. People who do not know we have different motivation and drivers, they are not shrinks, they see the behaviour and some of our coping tactics are literally exactly the same to look at as NPD. People cannot see our motivation or drivers and we do not always know to communicate them. It is not the traits its the behaviours that make people think we are NPD. We will also self destruct and those of us who are adhd/rsd as well, literally have a broken reality sometimes, we are having dysphoric reactions we then react to, while the people we are reacting to do not know why we are mad or withdrawing or whatever coping with rejection thing we do. People cannot see if we are feeding a broken sense of self or a broken sense of what is around us, it hurts them either way. It does not matter we are not motivated by the same things nor want the same as cluster b people, when the behaviour hurts the people around us the same. We must be aware of this and make sure we communicate as best we can what is going on, and what need is not being met, for people to know the difference between silent treatment and withdrawal. We have to accommodate when we know we can hurt people, and advocate when we are hurting as best we can, thats the only way the perception and confusion between us and them changes, and it is so hard for us to communicate need sometimes.
I can't help thinking some of the people who made these comments can't flip the narrative on themselves "you're not autistic you're an introvert" to "I knew I was an introvert but this is how I feel, could I be autistic?" I have been in a very destructive relationship with a Narcissist and that empathy was my downfall. He would flip his emotions and I'd so much want to please but couldn't work a thing out. It just drove me insane thinking it was all me, all my fault. My family had been the same so didn't question for one minute it was all me. I hadn't been diagnosed so I just got stuck in my head going round and round running through every interaction. Most people wouldn't know I'm spectrum and think I'm accepting and caring and sensitive. I wouldn't stand for that kind of BS again. Well done for covering a sensitive topic
We are sinners, that is a large part of the problem , my life has gotten considerably better after God came into my life and freed me from drugs and sex addictions I am thankful to him because he has brought beautiful people like you into my life to help me connect with others 🐱
I'm sorry you feel so angry Orion, I think whoever said that to you was just wanting to rile you up. I think to put it simply, the difference is in intention. The narcissist acts deliberately to upset people in order to control them (including passive aggression).
I find it quite ironic that the people who make these claims are the ones who are likely narcissists since they clearly believe their perspective is the correct one with no regard for how much professional competence is involved in diagnosing an autistic person, while they're just a layman with an overconfidence and obviously a serious lack of expertise in the field...
The way I think of the difference is that narcissists think they’re God and expect to be worshipped 24/7. And will hurt anyone they realize isn’t doing so. Us ASD’s, on the other hand, simply have a lot of difficulties with processing the world, including the people, around us.
Thank you soooo much for your channel! I spoke to a teacher about my daughter's issues going to school. She was diagnosed ADHD & bipolar disorder as a child/teen. She asked if I ever had her tested for adult autism cuz she thinks it was missed as a child! It makes so much sense!!! *sigh* She's 20 yrs old now. She's open to being tested, but finding a doctor to diagnose an adult is seemingly hard to find. 🙄
I think that the reason people get confused is because they don't fully understand the terms. Autistic people can sometimes appear selfish. They are not trying to be rude or upset anybody, but misunderstandings happen. Especially between autistic people and neurotypical people. A lot of people equate the term "Narcissistic" with being "Selfish" and use both words interchangeably. It's incorrect but might explain why people say autistic people are narcissistic.
YES! that had to be said! I can share my theory on that. In the past years I noticed kind of public interest around mental health topics - different disorders, therapies etc. I see that many news portals or other media are sometimes sharing some knowledge about this topic, but in an oversimplified way, easy to be digested by someone who has no clue about neurological disorders. So recently I noticed that Narcissistic Personality Disorder is often first on the list of "psychology" articles. And the first hint that you might be dealing with a Narcissist is "THEY ONLY TALK ABOUT THEMSELVES". Now think about autistic person who is happy to share their deep knowledge about their fave topic with this innocent NT soul that is willing to listen. We've all been there - this is not going to stop easily :D or (example taken from my own experience) you finally get to talk to anybody who is willing to listen to you. Because being notoriously rejected ends up with missing out on those super obvious things like sharing some thoughts with your friends or just sharing any kind of excitement about something that happened to you recently. So this is building up in you to the point that when you get to talk to someone, you just can't stop. And then imagine this person who sees this "they only talk about themselves" part - then it clicks for them - ah, yes, that's the narcissist! now I get it. I find those articles and summaries really hurtful and sometimes missing the point completely. The best example of the bad summaries is some former colleague of mine, type of extreme extrovert, who read on 9gag about introverts. So she happily shared with me that "i'm an introvert apparently, because i often feel tired after parties!"... facepalm from the moon and back..
Just found your channel recently. Been pretty positive I'm autistic for about a year but no official diagnosis yet. I appreciate your passion in sharing this.
Asking "what is the difference between an autistic person and a narcissist?" is like asking "what is the difference between a violin and a harp?" Well, they are both string instruments, but aside from that they have literally nothing in common. Most people are confused because they just have no idea what narcissism actually looks like. Narcissists almost never look narcissistic when you first meet them. They will pretend to be nice and charming until they control you. Autistic people are the opposite, and might appear (unintentionally) rude until you get to know them. In a way, people on the spectrum often look at first glance the way that a naive person might expect a narcissist to look if they have just heard the term for the first time and don't actually understand what it actually is.
I am intellectually gifted and get called a narcissist for knowing it. The ironic part is, while i recognize my own intelligence, the fact it is considered "above average" is terrifying to me because i am honestly not that smart 😳
I really haven't looked at much info about autism, as I don't know anybody with autism. But, I do know some things about it, and I've definitely never heard it being confused with narcissism - and it sounded really weird to me when you started saying people did that. But, I do know a lot about narcissism, and it makes sense to me if I assume that you just encounter more narcissists than the general public, since you are autistic. Narcissists are like, natural born trolls. They make themselves feel bigger by finding flaws in others. So, I assume they see autism as a flaw, and an opportunity to troll for narcissistic gratification. But, it sounds like a pretty bad strategy (as many of their strategies are), since some autists have like, super powers. I seriously think that the people calling you a narcissist are just narcissists. They really get under your skin... That sucks, man. Ignore em. Although, I will tell you that narcissism is not entirely a conscious process. It is a disability, and in the future I think it will be seen more like autism. However, the diagnostic criteria are extremely different... Autism is on a very very large spectrum. Some is partially genetic - and I think similar is true with narcissistic families. They love, and they live, and you've met many and had no idea... they just have sick innards, and start seeking people's downfall over time... Also, it seems like you're mostly talking about overt narcissism. Covert narcissism can only appear with a single partner, or a few people close to the person, and is much more under the radar. They can be autistic or not. It's kind of like how an autistic person could have a different eye color. They can be narcissists too. But, the two don't have a particular connection though... Remember, narcissists are EXTREMELY sensitive, kind of like autistic people... it's just that the part of them was stunted, and it causes social interactions to go down a very subconscious evolved behavior, and it's a condition that worsens over time, becoming more sadistic or sociopathic...
"You could give me a compliment for anything I do - I don't believe you". Then how you can tell if others appreciate what you do or not? What type of feedback you will believe?
Of course I can only answer for myself but because I relate to this statement I would put it like this: None. I simply don‘t care what others say when they are complimenting me, and I really don’t mean it in a rude way. When I feel I am doing something good my inner sense is validation enough, I do not need feedback to be confident. On the other hand: critizism affects me, sadly I am not immune to that. And misdiagnosis (by professionals and none) is definitely a problem.
@@BelfastDutchie all right. But first, that's neurotypical. And second, compliments and criticism both can be cheap and valuable, depending on content. I can say "you are a good driver" or you "you are a bad driver", those are empty words, no facts used. I can say "you drive off road better than on the road" - would that be praise? Criticism? Neutral estimate?
Find me ANY WOMAN, ANYWHERE (neurodivergent or neurotypical) who won’t claim that in the past she had a long-term boyfriend who was an “abusive” “narcissist.” - challenge level: IMPOSSIBLE 🤡😂
Alot of the times non narcissistic autistic people are accused of being narcissists, No. It's just that the general public doesn't even try to understand the autistic perspective,symptoms,signs and they wonder why autistics struggle with mental health. It is possible for an autistic person to be narcissistic but that's very uncommon
When I was young, I brought up the possibilty of being autistic to my narcissistic mom. She accused me of being selfish and wanting attention. She would always compare my siblings suffering to mine, especially since my older bro having a physical disability, my younger bro having a mild learning disability and my sister being constantly accused of being adopted. I still don't know if I am autistic or not because of childhood trauma and bad experiences with healthcare. I figure I've managed this far without knowing so I'll just keep going as I am and continue working on myself in the best ways for me. Thank you for this assessment, it helped relieve a lot of false guilt I had been carrying🙏❤
Finding the right counselor can be a REAL challenge. I know first hand. However, you really should find one. It will help you significantly. It has helped me for sure.
Pretty sure it's possible to be both. Dealing with someone who spends 90% of the time insulting me, putting me down, guilt tripping me, turning anything I say things they have said and done to hurt me around on me, putting their friends up against me by lying about me....they are autistic but I'm also pretty sure they're a narcisissist. If you want me to think the way he treats me is his autism then you want me to think autistic people are plain evil.
Some narcissists sometimes pretend to be autistic as a their strategy while others might use the strategy of accusing others of being narcissists, autistic people are easy targets for this kind of narc
I struggle because I think my husband is on the spectrum, but he's never been diagnosed. He comes off as a narcissist, and I don't think he has any clue. I think having a diagnosis would help him understand himself better, help me understand him better, and remove the feeling that I'm being treated inappropriately.
In my opinion they should be fairly easy to tell apart. My ex wife was a narcissist and in a failed attempt to understand her I suggested she look into whether or not she had autism. Not because I think autistic people are narcissistic but because she was constantly piling on more domestic labour on me and she had some stims (hand flapping) that a woman with pathological demand avoidant autism said she had. But that didn't last long because then I discovered narcissist personality disorder and by god that fit her like a glove! The trick to understanding whether someone is a narcissist is their inconsistency and their manipulative behaviours. They engage in things like love bombing and idealisation. They have extremely context dependent empathy, and unlike someone autistic, that empathy will always be a part either of love bombing or of getting something they want. I think that if you look more carefully into narcissism you should be able to tell the difference because they're quite dissimilar once you dig deeper.
Very possible that the folks trying to diagnose you with narcissism are having similar MH issues, but notice the differences as well. Perhaps your "high functionality" is intimidating.
Thank you for sharing your experiences and for speaking up for others who may not have the platform you have. I am a teacher and your channel has been amazingly helpful in increasing my understanding of the traits and struggles of autistic people.
I think the key here would be to ask the person what symptoms they believe that they are seeing that would lead them to decide that you are one or the other. Then correct them if they are wrong. They might think they are seeing something that isn't there, or they could be misunderstanding something you do. If you are being a jerk, then they might assume it's part of a "condition", not just that you are being rude or abrasive because it's what you want to do at the time. You might not even be aware of what you are doing yourself that is off putting. It's easy to confuse personality with an actual "condition", and people will, once they get into the weeds of trying to "diagnose" or categorize someone, look a little too closely at certain things and might give certain things more weight than they should have. Even doctors can make mistakes in diagnostics, as most of the time it has to do with observation and using a checklist. Just as the autistic might seem to be aloof or uncaring and not see it, the recipient might not understand that he is not actually uncaring or aloof. It might look the same whether it's intended or not. Unfortunately, I think autistic people have to explain their intentions to neurotypicals as patiently as possible.
I don't think I have anything better to say that you haven't already said. Mostly as a husband to an autistic wife for 22+ years, I just would like to thank you for taking the time to try bridge the neuro- autistic bridge. Thank you.
Orion: "I'm sorry if I'm talking too fast." Me: Playing video at 2x speed because my brain gets bored at basic speed. lol I've researched narcissism just to rule it out for me because I sometimes feel disconnected emotionally. I came to realize that that emotional disconnection mostly just occurs when I've been dealing with high stress and too many emotions and my brain is literally just protecting me by shutting down emotionally for a while.
It's called "Just about everyone can comment on RU-vid, including ignorant people who don't know any better or know the difference between the two, or just plain trolls who want to cause pain/drama." You're a brave and good man exposing your heart and soul to the world while trying to help others further understand what people like you and me face on a daily basis. No way I could do videos like this one. Keep being you and keep enlightening the world, one viewer at a time. The Internet will always be full of trolls. Just remember the people you're really doing this for, the ones who actually want to learn and not just say hurtful nonsense. :) Much respect.
Sorry to muddy the issue, but I don't think it's either/or for narcissism and autism. I think both diagnoses are on a sliding scale as I HAVE met autistic individuals which have low empathy and those which have high empathy. Usually all of this comes out when they feel comfortable unmasking, and I do think some autistic people are more antisocial than others, probably due to bad past experiences. Again, I don't think autistic people should be demonized, but they also shouldn't be given a pass just because they are autistic.
Thank you for being such a strong advocate for the community. Relate to a lot of your frustrations. Hoping we can all find assurance and stability within ourselves so we're less vulnerable to outside forces, and more autism awareness/understanding in general. Everyone deserves understanding and support, and a sense of belongingness. Narcissism is very intricate as well and misinformation is rampant.
Um… was with someone on the autism spectrum. Some gems: - when something negative happened to me: “sucks to be you!” - expected me to care for him when he got sick. I caught whatever he had and he’d get disgusted after he got better and said “I’m leaving. I don’t want to catch whatever you have” - god, you’re so stupid. How can you be so stupid Sheldon Cooper is autistic and he says stuff like this
Thank u, I've been label as a narcissist and I just maybe be inadequate. But I really care! I don't feel better than anyone (I didn't even think about it...it's not a thing for me), I evoide sound arrogant, even minimize my self, in order to don't harm anyone. Just too literal 😢
Thank you so much for this. I couldn't agree more with your words. All of them. I think this is my first time commenting here. Your topic is timely as I deal with someone who doesn't know about my self-diagnosis of ASD. They are saying I'm a narcissist. Your words today are comforting. Again, thank you so much. I'm sure there are many watching this who also feel validated. Blessings. (Yes, I treasure my safe people. My husband, my family, my closest friend, my Savior.) 🕊️
It’s equally unfair to call neurotypical people “monsters” as a result of having to deal with an autistic partner who is cold, aloof, rude and insensitive. Neurotypical individuals aren’t necessarily equipped to deal with, say, rudeness and one-sided conversations often associated with autism. Yet, NT individuals are usually expected to be hyper supportive, sensitive and forgiving. Taking the high road, being patient and understanding etc. without getting much in return can be very frustrating and emotionally draining. Autism doesn’t necessarily excuse @sshole behaviors, it can feel just as hurtful regardless if the perpetrator has autism or not. Autism may explain some behaviors but that is not the same as accepting the behaviors. Saying that NT people should just deal with bad behavior is just plain insulting and wrong. Rather than attacking people for reacting in a normal way to hurts, have some sympathy and compassion for the fact that NT people are adapting to the autistic person day in and day out, often without getting the credit they deserve. Anyone who is hurt deserves saving, including the NT people who deal with cold autistic people on a daily basis. It’s exhausting.
Thank you Orion for your honest and passionate video. I'm an NT with more than 7 close relatives (blood and non blood) including my twin, an older sibling and father who are/were autistic (not all officially diagnosed, but many are) and my wife. I hear your passion and frustration. At my age now (62) having lived with folks that I love passionately all my life I can see both sides of the coin. I came to the conclusion a long time ago that one can't MAKE other people understand. We can't make them adopt views and opinions, all we can control is our own responses. So I would say in response; don't rise to the bait - let them have their views and opinions. The old saying: "Water off a duck's back". For what it's worth. I value the qualities my ASD relatives have. I get on with all of them. May I make one little point: seeing things from the other persons point of view or the LACK of that ability is a behaviour I see on both sides of the divide. I wish you very well and really appreciate the candid way you've expressed things from the AS point of view. Kind regards from North Wales UK.
Thank you for explaining the difference. Neurotypical people who aren’t educated can just ignorantly say hurtful things. It’s sad. I’m sorry people comment rudely.
Thank you so much for this - it’s so spot on ! This should be played to the education department, and be mandatory viewing in schools and to unqualified GPs and counsellors ! I’m so over people saying these types of things. 🤬
To be fair, as an autistic adult l did wonder at times what the difference was between me and a narcissist was at times. The core difference seems to be intent. While l may be feeling things like empathy where a narcissist wouldn't, the difference in behaviour to the outside observer is often nil. We can't blame other people for their perceptions or ignorance, we can only hope that they can learn. For our part we also need to learn, we need to learn how to teach others the difference and hope that they are willing to listen.
My Sister is Autistic and I am not really sure if I'm on the Spectrum as well or just severe ADD probably both... My brother & my Mom are autistic and I'm pretty sure my Husband is as well. So obviously I feel very strongly about people on the spectrum being treated understanding and respect and I think it's obvious that society has a long way to go with that. My Sister is very low functioning and endured endless torture throughout her life and it's still lonely & dependant on my parents who are in a dangerous cult and she can't get out because she's disabled & not independent. I am VERY protective of her. I know it's unfair for Autistic people to receive further discrimination but the truth is; you really cannot deny that there's a high level of traits, behaviors & patterns that are, in effect, among people on the spectrum that are narcissistic in nature. People with NPD don't mean to be that way either by the way. I'm sorry, I am not throwing shade, I promise, but it's true and it's not their fault but it still hurts others and before you bite my head off let me explain: ASD folks don't just have difficulty expressing their own feelings as you mentioned, they often do also have great trouble putting themselves in other people's shoes. It's true it's true. SOME people on the spectrum are unique in that they did manage to develop a decent amount of mirror neurons and have a high degree of empathy (like my sister, yourself and & I) many (not all) ASD people really struggle to understand differing points of view or understanding someone else's feelings or perspectives (similar to NPD people) and are often quite wrapped up in getting their own very specific needs met and honestly they very commonly often ignore or don't understand the needs of others. Which makes them, in effect, self centered. No they don't mean to be like that and when they sit & think they often makes choices that benefit others more than themselves but being considerate & thoughtful of others by nature is not a typical ASD trait. It's just not. My Sister has learned to be quite considerate of others in her 30's but it took lots of mindfulness practice. She has also learned to try to imagine what it would be like to be in someone else's shoes. It took many many years for her to develop that. My brother has a harder time with that stuff. He's one of those ASD people who was speaking in full sentences at 8 months where my Sister was non-verbal till she was 3-4 and can barely read now at 36. Different sides of a coin I guess. My husband, is a math genius and thinks that his perspective makes more sense and therfore insists on it. My Sister has a germ special interest so she insists that we all live according to what she believes about germs. She didn't understand why my boys were acting like little boys when they were kids and would get very very frustrated with their rough housing. Now I KNOW that it overwhelming for her and I KNOW she & my Hubby are trying to manage their stress levels but it doesn't even occur to them that there could be a way that everyone gets their needs met. They just don't even think of that. They come across as very inconsiderate. My Husband never leaves the light on for me so I can see where the heck I'm going when I'm coming up stairs even though I said I'll be right there. He refuses to wipe up the tooth paste specks from the mirror but rains terror down on everyone if something he cares about it's slightly out of Spouses of ASD folks often know full well their partner is suffering from Cassandra syndrome but we're expected to just change our expectations and get used to our needs not being anywhere near met. Just expected to endless accommodations and self sacrifice for the rest of our lives. Tell me, how is that NOT self centered? How is that fair? Marriage is an adult relationship it requires emotional maturity & emotional intelligence to be a healthy relationship. There's a lot of similarities to narcissistic behaviors. Definitely not the same as NPD but a high level of of behaviors that do qualify as narcissistic in nature. If you're angry with what I'm saying here, I invite you to take into account that self awareness is usually not a strong suit for ASD people. It's possible that you haven't examined it from the perspective of those who are in relationships with folks on the spectrum. Or maybe my ASD fam have a higher than normal amount of narcissistic traits. I'm not sure but it's really tough being in my position. I want to be loving & respectful & patient and I love them all so much but honestly it's all taken quite a big toll on my mental & physical health.
