“We create. We delete. It is our nature it is our right.” - The Primordial, speaking to the Didact whilst in full control of the Gravemind consciousness. It's truly horrific that within the Gravemind there isn't just a singular Precursor but many. History paints them as pacifists but little did those poor souls know that the Flood is their twisted dark side. You think with their power they could simply annihilate any opposition with ease but rather they condemn through painful assimilation. “Other species know not suffering, until we meet that upon them with unrelenting dedication.”
It's beautiful that 343 actually understands that there is just no correct way to explain how a being so far above us could explain their surroundings. If you told a 2 dimensional being that we lived in a 4 dimensional world, they wouldn't even know that a depth or a height it
@@MacroLore It's kinda Lovecraftian in the sense the Primordial ridicules the Forerunner because they can't fathom his species' nature or the full scope of their beliefs. They can corrupt intelligent machines and twist your own beliefs through words and arguments so complex that you don't even realize they played you until it's too late. Even being honest about their nature causes humans that heard to kill themselves and Didact shut off that part of his memory until it resurfaced after his death.
It was scary enough when I thought the Primordial was one. Knowing that the Primordial is many of the Precursors somehow ups the horror of it. Maybe it’s that it wasn’t just one rogue god that want to make everything suffer eternally for the long past actions of a few, but many of these gods that hate every single one of us with a fury we couldn’t comprehend in a million years.
@@jimmmmus its not even shure if the primordial is actually a precursor. but even if the flood have only lets say 25% of the power of the precursors they would be scary AF.
halo epitaph does not the flood are more like a faction of the precursors the primordial and his ilk are an exception not a rule the precursors pf path kathona prove it "After dying, the two Precursors became samples that were studied and encoded, and planted in the ground as seeds that would germinate for a million years. Their sprouts that climbed to the surface took even longer and bloomed only in the last million years. Unlike the Primordial, these were Precursors that celebrated joy instead of relishing in suffering and as a result, the blooms were not left corrupted with violence and misery but instead were clean, beautiful, and bright." there were also two precursors hanging out in the milky way who cured a woman of an uncurable prion Disease then fucked off The thing you guys forgot is that the precursors were not a hive mind
Not exactly. The Precursors as a whole only ever devoured the species who claimed the Mantle. The Flood is still an extreme faction, though not quite the corruption everyone assumed.
On the Flood vs 40k thing: The best possible place IMO for the flood to start would be a medieval-level world, either a lost human colony or uncontacted xeno world. A pre-industrial world would not have the knowledge nor means to contain the initial outbreak. People would say, “how would the Flood get off-world?” The answer to that is that each and every Gravemind has all the knowledge of all previous Graveminds, and the knowledge off all people assimilated by all previous Graveminds. Once a Gravemind is formed, it sure as hell is teching up to make an industrial base and get slipspace drives made ASAP, which would give the Flood numerous advantages such as: -FTL that does not attract the attentions of the Chaos Gods. -FTL unhindered by the Warp. -FTL that is much easier to make and maintain than much of 40k’s stuff. I am certain that the Gravemind would even improve on local technologies. Any Forge World captured would be retooled to produce better stuff. Flood-aligned AI would be made out of the brains of people corrupted by the Logic Plague. The Gravemind would invest in legions of steel to supplement and work alongside it’s flesh, much as it did during the Forerunner-Flood War. The Gravemind would do anything to survive. On the off chance that the Tyranids somehow become immune to the Flood, and present an existential threat, the Gravemind would try and counter this by any means necessary… Even if it means build a Halo, regardless of how much it would hate doing so. Halo Rings don’t have to fire omnidirectionally. In fact, the original 12 Halo Rings couldn’t. We know the Flood consumed it’s builders; therefore, it could build a Halo as well. Even if it hates it.
A couple issues though. Slipstream likely wouldn't work in in the 40K galaxy as it likely makes use of the same spacial dimension that existed before the War in Heaven corrupted it into the warp. We can see from the Necrons that quantum teleportation and inertialess ftl are both possible but only they have figured it out this far. The Halo Rings just aren't that impressive in 40K terms. Multiple factions have galaxy ending superweapons at their disposal that they simply refuse to use until absolutely necessary (the Necron Orrery could supernova every star in the galaxy instantly at the push of a button, in addition to providing real time observation of every syar system not completely obscured by chaos at the time. It's basically a supercharged version of the Halo Rings with much more precise targeting). We also don't know how chaos magic would or wouldn't work on the Flood, but it has feats on par with pretty much all the peak feats of the Flood usually for a fraction of the effort (although similarly requiring looooong periods of careful planning to set up rituals powerful enough to do this, something like converting an entire planet into a chaos cult and then blood sacrificing them all at once).
@@BertoxolusThePuzzled agreed. Porting the flood into 40k and then simply ignoring 40k logic seems weird. Most strikingly, the warp as a concept and how the flood would interact with it. The overarching consciousness of the flood would probably maniest as a god in the warp, maybe even one as strong as all the chos gods combied, but it would nevertheless have to hold it's own there against chaos and other forces. And if we play it out like that, imagine what the shadow in the warp would do to graveminds. They could conceivably "lose connection" and thus the major knowledge advantage of being able to tap into the knowledge of all previous Graveminds, and the knowledge off all people assimilated by all previous Graveminds as soon as a tyranid hive fleet even approaches. This is just a quick example to showcase how shallow the comparison is.
Macro is like the gravemind + that mean friend who utterly thrashes u in debates, and then after hand u a whoopin, gives a fake "o maybe i was wrong" before thrashing u again. Safe to assume 40k fanboys aren't going to recover after Part 3. RIP Tyrannid or whatever.
Just watched the other 2 vids and as soon as I saw the title of this upcoming one I thought the same thing, him being "wrong" about the Flood just means it's more powerful than he stated in the last video Like he went over a lot of the neural physics and shadow in the warp powers but didnt go over the fact that the Flood Supercell can turn a regular ass marine into a piece of flesh that can throw an armored spartan around like nothing
But a Space Marine can already throw an armored Spartan around like nothing, they are 7 feet tall walls of hundred of pounds of almost pure muscle and cybernetic augmentations just by default. We also have no reason to believe the Flood Supercell would be immune to any non-physcial means of attack as it necessarily has never encountered things like chaos sorcery or faith strong enough for a baseline human in a desperate situation to spontaneously sprout flaming wings and temporarily becomes an almost unstoppable spiritual avatar until the current battle is over. I also suspect the Tyranids once exposed to it would quickly work out a clever and counterintuitive solution to the problem, for instance special biomass pools on Flood infected planets specifically genetically designed to contain Flood Supercells dumped into it by constantly letting simple mass reproducing Tyranid single cell organisms to let themselves be infected before committing mass suicide over and over faster than it can infect it's way out. If Tyranids can simply evolve immunity to even magically enhanced plagues created by a literal God of disease and constantly empower by his sorcery given a few days of time INSIDE THE WARP, I doubt that the Supercell would be a serious threat to them once they realized what it did and what it was capable of doing. Unlike Nurgle the Supercell ultimately functions within the confines of physical laws, albeit pushing some of them to their absolute limits. Also in terms of the long game the Necrons have tech and capabilities arguably superior to the Forerunners themselves such as their galactic Orrery, quantum teleportation, and near instant ftl inertialess drives and dolmen gates. If nothing else they would eventually step in and clear out the infection once it became a hindrance to their ongoing awakening process and in progress experiments at wiping chaos out of large sections of the galaxy (the Pariah Nexus for example).
An interesting quote regarding the hive mind when an imperial psyker and a group of talarn desert raiders saw into the hive mind of the Tyranids “ through the eyes of commissar rezail there was a vast ocean, as vast as time and space tendrils that spanned the galaxy grabbed moons and planets a presence so gargantuan , so enormous filled the infinite ocean rezail the guardsman was falling and drowning into the unending abyss with his comrades only the cries and aid of the librarian Kamala prevented him and his friends from losing himself and returned him to reality “
8:02 so Flood forms are essentially more like Meat puppets than the pure consciousness that _is_ the flood? Am I getting that right? I feel like that makes the discrepencies of the Halo array destroying flood bio mass despite Cortana insisting the Halos only destroying sentient life or the floods "food" actually make sense!
Ok after halo 2 bungie themselves retconed the "only their food" instead the rings destroy all nervous tissue even the moat basic kind. Later 343 added that the pulse also destroys precursor technology and that the rings can decompose all biomatter into its basic elements by combining a special solute that activates its properties with the pulse of the rings. So they erase everything. And about how the flood bodies are like puppets, think it this way, the precursors were'nt bound to a physicall form they could die and reincarnate multiple times in multiple forms, for the physicall body its just a vehicle that the conciussnes uses, intern the flood is just anither form of prescursor that works in the same principle.
@@martinnavarrete5279so wait, they changed how the rings work in after Halo 2? But The master builder describes How the rings work in a similar way cortana does in CE within the Halo 4 terminals. I do recall it specially destroying the nervous systems of life that comes into contact with the waves, but I guess i'm just confused on How/if the flood intelligence was properly affected by the rings if at all. I assumed they persistent slightly afterward but then just starved and went dormant.
@@GreaterGrievobeast55 yeah in halo 3 guilty spark remarks that the pulse would eliminate the local infection when the gravemind arrives at the ark. And then that why they dont worry about the flood left in the ark. It can be notice also in the arg of halo 3 and the terminals (though those kinda went in the contrary direction of what bungie intended)
It was a slight retcon. Cortana said "Halo doesn't kill Flood, it kills their food!" which was true at the time. In Halo 3, the solution to stopping the Flood is to fire the new Installation-08, which wouldn't make sense if it only killed the Flood's food; there were only 3 people in that entire region of space (Master Chief, Johnson, The Arbiter) and 2 AIs (Cortana, Guilty Spark), every body else (UNSC, Swords of Sangheilios, Covenant) went home. It doens't make sense to wipe out the food if there is no food. The Halos kill the Flood *and* the food, meaning that it's indescriminate like a bomb and the only way to not friendly-fire your own troops & civilians is to have them outside of the kill-radius. Cortana's quote should be interpreted as "Halo doesn't [only] kill Flood, it [also] kills their food!" since it *does* work on the Flood now, and everything else for that matter.
It so cool to hear this topic from someone who's experienced in both series lore. If you want another sort of "Flood VS" match up I'd love to hear about the Flood vs X Parasites from Metroid. Halo and Metroid have been compared for years and there's plenty of connections, Flood vs X being one of them. The X have only been in two games so there isn't much on them (part of that is intentional) but purely based on what we know, the X can overrun entire planets in a few hours and could potentially be capable of so much more if they get out of hand since they're essentially John Carpenter's The Thing on super steroids(the X get stopped before they get that far).
Interesting perspective and outlook going down the mythology take. I didn't think you would do that. Another string trait the Flood forms have over the Tyranid bioforms is that the ordinary Tyranid bioform or foot soldier has a lifespan that is at most a week or two nornally. Flood infection forms and supercells can last alot longer even if it is isolated. As we seen lonely infection forms, pure forms, and infected hosts last for many weeks to even years alone. And a Proto Gravemind or early restricted Gravemind can some how last themselves for tens of thousands of years without much expansion or food on Rings or megastructures or deep in space. I am aware the Tyranid bio ships have been able to live for hundreds of years to thousands with the Tyranid hivefleets travelling so long in space without food but we are talkinf about foot soldiers. You gotta admit that is one logistical feat the Flood's armies have over the Tyranid's armies. Which is why Tyranids breed so much and throw everything they have on the ground as quickly as possible with swarm tactics and breed quickly to re-establish their numbers. As we seen in Halo Wars comic on board the Spirit of Fire, Halo 2 and Halo Wars 2. The Flood are very good at defending and self preserving themselves in a contained parameter. Tyranids throwing their hundreds of thousands troops at them will make some good supplies for the infestation's needs. Keep in mind Flood infection forms are alot stronger then we give credit for. The individual infection forms are capable of ripping apart and scratching titanium alloys and metal doors. Imagine what the stronger bigger Pure forms can do like the Abomination. All while being under the control of the Gravemind makes them more efficient for indepth complex strageic combat. Even Proto Graveminds are good fighters and resilient heavy tanks once they are big enough. And as Halo Wars 2 and the Mona Lisa demonstrates they are horrifically efficient at producing those even under restrained circumstances and limited resources. All it takes is some time even with limited numbers. Not only that but they will understand completely how Tyranids operate and how the hierarchy command structure is designed. They will not be foolish enough to overplay their cards navigating how to best counteract and continually self improve against the Tyranids adaption. They will understand the magnitude and time table of weeks they have very quickly for the varies Hivefleet and simply learn how to best undermine the counter measures they will create. The Tyranid foot soldier's week long lifespan will definitely be something the Gravemind will notice and exploit to it's own benefit. Bioform metabolism is a weakness.
The flood and tyranids use the flesh to the same capacity. The flood and tyranids use them in a different way. Tyranids will tear mucles and tendons to attack because eating is more important that getting fixed. The Flood will tear muscles because they can turn any body into a super weapon. So they will "invest" more into their foot soldiers. A literal 3 day old baby infected by the flood could probably throw a truck, with they would just eat the truck and the baby to make a truck sized baby.
@@MacroLore That is a good analysis. Flood Foot soldiers can be changed and updated for varies purposes and supporting roles faster and more effectively then the Tyranids usually do. While Tyranids all they do is swarm and eat even when so many bioforms are lost with low lifespans the Flood's nature and objective is different and knows the importance of all the smaller detailed things they assimilate while the Tyranids devour the flesh which is a extra middle step that takes a longer time to process before making more bioforms in their birthing living facilities or the breeding process. While the Flood do not have much of a extra middle step to do.
To me the biggest similarity between the flood and chaos is how they both corrupt life the only difference I can really think of is that chaos can corrupt you mentally and I haven't heard of the flood doing that to besides what they can do to AI.
The logic plague does actually have an effect on organic beings as well. Much of the Ur Didacts insanity is a result of the gravemind screwing with him.
The Logic Plague that the Flood uses to corrupt AIs isn't exclusive to AIs, it works on all sentient beings. Essentially, the Flood is so incredibly intelligent and manipulative that it can convince even the most loyal entities to completely abandon their ideals and start working for the Flood, whether consciously or unknowingly, just by TALKING to them. The fact that this ALSO works on superintelligent AI is just an added aspect of the horror.
@@myduckisonqauck7227 Keyes lasted several hours, which is extremely impressive (especially considering he was infected and being physically tortured as well), but the Logic Plague has never worked instantly, it requires an in-depth conversation with the Gravemind. It's not mind control, it's literally just the Gravemind having an intellectual discussion that no one can refute by the end of.
Ok here me out, the Floor feels like a Precursor playing an RTS game against the galaxy. only restriction is in another vain a different Precursor is acting like a DM making a story to make the humans win
Alternative argument. The flood already beat the game and they're upset they didn't turn up the difficulty. So they're seeing how much they can come back from, or how down bad they can come back from
How does Mechanicus's hacking and coding compare to the Forerunner's programming security defenses, encryptions, and firewalls? I heard the Man of Iron robot UR-025 was able to easily out perform a Adeptus Mechanicus Magos attempts of hacking his systems and even Crawl has massive issues adapting and understanding Necron technology so I was wondering how well the Forerunner's security measures and firewalls would hold up if they made it difficult for humans of Warhammer 40k. I heard the Forerunners tried their best to protect and compartmentalize intelligence to slow down the Flood's rapid rate and figuring out their plans and defenses but it still didn't do much to protect many of their worlds and facilities due to how overpowered the Flood mental capacity was like and how many critical assets like the Ais they captured. Is Forerunner security astronomically greater then most of all Warhammer 40k program security?
I would assume so, they were so advanced technologically that one forerunner was shocked after finding a very old forerunner vessel that was running on binary. Fella couldn't believe that their race used to use that system, so it would stand to chance their program security is leagues beyond that of everyone else (In modern 40k, War in Heaven necrons should have something similar I'd assume)
In regards to slipspace: Um actually 🤓, do to different laws of physics in slipspace compared to real space, a field generator is used creating a bubble of realspace around a vessel while in slipspace. Just like a Gellar field. Slipspace is the warp, just without daemons and souls. Otherwise it's 1 to 1.
I think the major difference between The Old Ones and The Precursors is that in Halo lore we get a lot of clear information about them where as in 40k they are treated as almost mythical beings, not to mention that there is a 50 million year difference in their proximity to the modern settings.
Will you ever do a future video on the necrons and forunners both are very similar both have god tier tech and are the apex of their setting both are honorable and equally arrogant and both rose up against the creators of their setting
Curiosity: Not all precursors chose the path of revenge. When the Librarian was alive, she journeyed to the neighboring galaxy, the Magellanic Clouds, where she found samples of precursors that had been exterminated millions of years ago. Instead of seeking hatred and revenge as their solace, these Precursors continued to celebrate life and joy, so their remains did not corrupt and instead manifested as flowers. The Librarian took these samples, cleaned their genetic memory so they wouldn't have memories of the atrocities they experienced in the past, and once ready, the samples would be planted in another distant galaxy where they would start anew. This mission was carried out in secrecy, and only a few Forerunners knew about these samples, like Keeper-of-Tools; if other Forerunners had known about their existence, they would have opposed their resettlement, and the Flood would have found out. So... The Librarian is the mother of all modern species in the galaxy, and not only that, but even of their own creators, the precursors 💀.
The libration is the main forerunner. Yes, she is the best life worker the forerunners ever produced. She is just the perfect nurse/Mother Nature. A mother so horrified by her children’s actions that she has to go so some extreme lengths to Fix their mistakes
Tyrannids scale to Outerversal, the Flood scales to Galaxy. How is this even a fair fight for the Flood? The Hive mind is capable of interacting with and wrapping it's 'tendrils' around the skein, the Skein was formed by the abstract forms of Chaos Gods to hold the rules of the Great Game they abide by, and the source of the concepts which their avatars embody. Without the Skein limiting their power, a Chaos God may simply manifest their entire personal realm into the Materium. They have "Wrapped their tendrils along the streams of probability." eventually forming "A mighty cable of fate." that Dwarfed all other threads on the Skien. These Tendrils that could manipulate fate and reality were only tiny splinters of a consciousness that is incomprehensible in size and intelligence. Pitting flood against Tyranids is akin to pitting a chihuahua against the Outer Gods from H.P. Lovecraft.
There's a few things I don't understand about this argument after watching these videos. First, you mentioned how The Flood constantly improve themselves like Korne does, but ignored how that's literally the Tyranid's thing. Constantly adapting to deal with whatever beats them previously is literally why Leviathan was such a threat in the first place. Second, the Nids are fighting to a draw their own race of reality warpers. The Orks. The Orks modify the world around them by pack mentality, they also exist purely for the purpose of war and scale themselves and their power to their enemies. They also reproduce by dying, the more gruesomely the more new Orks are created. Now you're probably going to bring up "Oh they don't control time" which is not something that you've adequately proven the Precursors can actually do. Yes you proved that they can see time and they can live VERY however long they want, but not that they can actually CONTROL time. I'm sure that'll be in a future video titled something along the lines of "I am STILL WRONG about the Flood vs The Tyranids Part. 4" or something like that. Third, humanity is not there to "fix the broken universe" in Warhammer 40K as literally every book talks about how they lose more and more worlds every year. Humanity is falling to the same trap of hubris the previous races fell too. Warhammer 40K is a Grim Dark Universe, meaning every choice leads to a worse state than what was before it, therefore they aren't there to "fix" things by doing ridiculous plot armoury things, they're just surviving by doing those things in a state that's always worse than when they started. Finally, the Nids are a threat to a universe with basic arms way more advanced technologically speaking than anything we have today. The UNSC beat a Gravemind with weapons comparable to modern weapons we can make today. If the Graveminds are so unbelievably reality warp bendingly powerful, then how in the blue hell did Master Chief and frienemies EVER win against one? I literally saw in a comment on this video someone say that each new one is stronger than the last with all of the last's abilities of the previous ones. So how the hell did basic bitch mortals and basic bitch mortal tech beat a literal God?
Flood only does OP reality bending when it reaches a certain critical mass point as seen in the Forerunner-Flood war when they were doing star road shenanigans. The Flood that we defeat in Halo 3 is a pretty small outbreak in comparison, with Halo arrays right next to their doorstep ready to be activated to destroy them. Also… No? UNSC didn’t beat the Flood at all, they were still getting overwhelmed towards the end of the game (their elite allies had to glass the entirety of Africa just to stop an outbreak from a single cruiser crashing). Chief just managed to reach the controls for a Galaxy superweapon specifically designed to destroy them. Which even then was a stroke of insane luck more than anything. Bungie also admits a ton in their dev diaries that there was a lot of oversights they made with the Flood. For example they could’ve easily escaped on the Dawn at the end of Halo 3 when the Ark exploded. High Charity is basically also planet sized flood ball, yet they only send like 40 or 50 flood forms to stop Chief blowing it up. Also Flood-infested High Charity again landing on the Ark would’ve been more than enough to stop Chief and the Arbiter. They could’ve also dropped a few drop pods into the Earth’s ocean on the way to the Ark, and effectively taken over the planet by the time Chief/Arbie escaped onto the Dawn at the end of Halo 3. There’s a certain point where you realise “Wow, Halo has a lot of plot holes huh”. But ultimately Bungie designed a lot of the games with the rule of cool at the time (which ultimately made them way more fun). Realistically nobody would’ve stood a chance against the Flood if there was actual backup plans on their part, but oh well.
The thing to remember is that the Flood are avatars of literally eternal beings that dictate the laws of reality by force of will from their omniscient perspective outside of the flow of time. The observed abilities given to the Flood by their creators matches what the Orks, Tyranids, C'tan, and Chaos "gods" can do, combined. (The Precursors being eternal constants, and thus beyond the limits of time, comes from the novel, Halo Cryptum, on page 157, where a Precursor is shown to be "where the twin fists of time uncurl their fingers and join in a clasp, so that nothing changed or ever would") The reason the Flood has its apparent "developmental stages" is to hide its nature and better enable it to perform the duty it was designed for, which is not the consumption of all life in the Halo universe. The Flood's job is to uphold the Mantle of Responsibility, the rule established by the Precursors that each mortal race under their protection has the right to the opportunity to reach their full potential. The Flood doesn't go in with its full power, because none of the mortal races could withstand that. Thus, the Flood starts small, and slowly ramps up its use of power, stopping before it gets to the state where the mortals no longer have the capacity to "win". Even when the Forerunners were sentenced to extermination for their crimes against the Mantle, the Flood held back for 300 years, waiting for the Forerunners to reach their full potential before carrying out that sentence. And the Flood made the final assault in such a way to ensure that the Halo Array was fired, re-setting the galaxy, with the protected races all safely on the Lesser Ark, while the Flood destroyed the Forerunners on the Greater Ark. Later appearances of the Flood are primarily asset denial, preventing the mortal races from acquiring technology they're not ready for, technology that they'd use to wipe themselves or each-other out with. The Flood is still significantly holding back. The UNSC didn't defeat the Flood. The Flood's playing its role like a stage play, filling the role of antagonist to bring about the desired outcome, which the Precursors can already see from their omniscient perspective outside of time, which is how they know what course of action brings about that outcome.
@@hyperkaioken4982 The Flood's job isn't to "win". Its first emergence was a test of Humanity's worth, giving them the opportunity to prove themselves by how they handled the responsibility of releasing the Flood onto the galaxy. Ancient Humanity passed that test, and the Flood stopped targeting them as it shifted its focus to the Forerunners. The Forerunners were slated for extermination as punishment for their crimes against the Mantle (such as the perpetual subjugation of the other races, permanently preventing them from ever reaching their full potential). However, the Forerunners hadn't reached their own full potential yet, so the Flood held back for over 300 years, waiting, and slowing ramping up its use of its abilities until the Forerunners did reach their full potential, at which point the Flood swooped in and obliterated them quickly, destroying the Greater Ark as the Halo Array was fired, with the other races safely preserved on the Lesser Ark. Thereafter the Flood's primary duty was asset denial, as it only reveals itself on worlds where there is technology that the mortal races aren't ready for, that they'd use to destroy themselves or each-other if they acquired too early. That's why the Flood is effectively playing dumb, even though it has its full capabilities, as it demonstrated to Cortana in the short story, Human Weakness. The Flood let its self be "defeated" and "contained" each time it was faced. Even on the Ark, when the Banished had gathered forces there and were in need of additional weapons for their war against Humanity, but the Flood denied them access to High Charity where such weapons were located, because the Banished would have successfully used them to wipe out Humanity if they'd had access to them.
I think there's only one being the flood would rather not infect: you love him, you hate him, everybody give it up for-! G5 Iguazu. The Gravemind would learn from Allminds mistake, and not bring him into the fold of the flood.
It wouldn't end well for the Cabal, but I'd put money on the Hive Edit: if the vex formed an Axis Mind and started replicating and forming gateways, they might get pretty advanced.
I think you're underestimating the Old Ones a bit when you say they don't even compare to the Precursors in terms of power. While it hasn't been outright stated yet, it's been heavily implied that the Old Ones' native language was Enuncia, the language of the universe itself that allows the speaker to reshape reality to their will. In the Eisenhorn series, a man attempted to recover the lost language and would have achieved godhood if he succeeded. The Old Ones ascended the Eldar into a psychic race, created the Kroks as the ultimate warriors, and according to some theories planted the seeds that would eventually become the Tyranids. They also created a webway so they'd never need to rely on the unstable Warp for travel. They were basically GODS whose very words could change the universe.
The Precursors are literal eternal constants who dictate the laws of reality by merely willing them to be so, from their omniscient perspective entirely outside of space and time. It is not an underestimation of the Old Ones of 40k to say they do not compare to the Precursors. (If you're inclined to argue on this point, please read the Forerunner Saga first, as it reveals the nature of the Precursors through bread crumbs scattered throughout the trilogy, as well as the fact that they never lost to the Forerunners. The Precursors weren't trying to "win" and they let their forces "lose" when it manipulates galactic events to their desired outcome) Hyperbole about 40k's abilities aside, the Old Ones are comparable to Forerunners, but where the Forerunners didn't believe in actual magic, and accomplished many magic-like feats through technology, the Old Ones actually used magic to accomplish feats much like what the Forerunners accomplished.
@@lennardchurch8483 so you’re saying the Precursors were just one giant tzeentchean “just as planned” meme but we actually have to take it seriously? I mean… do not get me wrong. 40k is basically a bunch of grade schoolers LARPing on a playground and arguing why their OC can’t die because they’re “immune to bullets”, but that’s half the goddamn fun of the franchise. We expect this kind of BS from GW and Black Library and revel in the absurdity. For 343 to shoehorn that into a more grounded and consistent series like Halo just seems kind of dumb.
@@handsomeman-child8751 It's not really the same thing. The Precursors are the creator-deities of the Halo universe, who established the Mantle of Responsibility (the rule that each race under their protection has the right to the opportunity to reach its full potential), and manipulate the course of history to ensure that it happens. It's a world with a god, who has clear plans, methods, and goals that it's pursuing, and its actions make sense in that context of its goals. In contrast between that and 40k, is that 40k's writers like to just throw around words like "infinite" and "unstoppable" hyperbolically, and if the Chaos "gods" had half the power of their meme depictions, they'd have crushed all resistance already. The Precursors want to watch the mortal races grow and reach their full potential, and they only intervene when circumstances are such that this desired outcome would otherwise not come to pass. They first used peaceful avatars to serve as examples to the mortal races, then they used the Flood, an antagonist for the mortal races to strive against that's not each-other. Later yet they used the Endless to destabilize the Banished to prevent it from eliminating entire races in its war against everyone else.
@@lennardchurch8483 The only problem with why 40k’s gods don’t win is because they’re all super powerful and fighting each other. I’d say they’re comparable- both can shape reality and it’s rules. If the precursors were in 40k I’d say they’d just be another god. C’tan, Chaos, Nids, Emps, Old Ones, Precursors. Eternal war. Gotta love it.
@@SnakeChkn I'd say the distinction is between extremely powerful entities that mortals haven't figured out to kill yet in 40k being called "gods", vs entities that are literal eternal constants, beyond any measure of time or space, making it literally impossible to attack them, as they through force of will dictate the laws of the universe, as is the case for the Precursors. (The Precursors used avatars to interact with mortals, and they didn't have their avatars defend themselves when the Forerunners rebelled, and everything from the Flood to the Endless and beyond is part of the Precursors' overarching plans that span the whole of time) The C'tan were shattered by the Necrons and are being used as batteries. Chaos are manifestations of the psychic echoes of biological life in real-space of those mortal entities that have a genetic connection to the Warp. The Emperor is now basically a fifth Warp "god", just that he's lawful-aligned instead of chaos-aligned. The Old Ones weren't so much deities, as they were the closest thing 40k has to the Forerunners. The Tyranids are what the Flood pretends to be when it doesn't want mortals to un-alive themselves from the horror of knowing the truth. Introduced to the 40k universe, the Precursors could turn every individual mortal, across every species into Alpha Pariah, completely cutting off the Warp from the energies that fuel it and give it shape, causing it to fall silent, effectively destroying the Chaos "gods" without ever actually fighting them. The Warp would effectively become what Slipspace is in the Halo universe.
I sat through 3 videos of trivialities. I came expecting a 1 v1. I got lectures about Halo lore > 40K faction. A Gravemind trying to speak to a ceaseless hunger as if it were cognizant or reciprocal. A fistful of random circumstantial scenarios that stack the deck on their premises alone... Where is the substance? Biology? Tactics? Methods of development or subversion? I hadn't even heard mention of the insane evolutionary and bio-engineering arms race between the Flood or Tyranids. Was there ever a singular nod towards Flood spores or Phage cells? These takes are feeling exceptionally hollow.
Umm the silent kings of the necrons fought the nids during his self bansiment of 60 million years. They are well established in 40k base lore (unless that's been retconned)
Honestly I think one of Halo’s biggest problems post 343 is over explaining stuff, one of the best things about bungie halo was figuring out the mystery & putting the pieces together, finding out that Forerunners were ancient humans & that the covenant was essentially genociding the very gods they worshiped was an amazing revelation. Now Halo has a huge ass backstory but almost none of it is in the games, in fact if you don’t read the books then the the story of the games doesn’t make sense which is ass backwards.
I agree with you. and I believe the recent halo lore explains it to a point that brings back that cosmic horror. The mystery of before is shut down as the flood are revealed to be Lovecraftian horrors who feed on "experience"
@@MacroLore I’ll have to take your word for it, I gave up on halo after Infinite (I’d already given up on the expanded universe after 4). I’ve heard they’ve tried to back track on the Forerunners & made out that their both sub species of the same species or something which is a step in the right direction. Still I’ll never be able to fully return to the series lore as long as the Rookie was executed as a hostage by insurrectionists, I’ll never forgive 343 for that.
If you don't want to play the trash games I suggest reading these 4 books. Cryptum, primordium, silentium, Epitath. Those are essentially the Halo sources @@MannerdDesert7
@@MacroLore I listened to the audio book of Cryptum, it was alright but I’m not a big fan of descriptive writing, I much prefer Dialogue heavy writing. There was a lot of Cryptum (especially in the middle) that I found pretty boring but I liked Human Guilty Spark (Or whatever his human name was, Chakwas or something like that). Also I’m a big fan of the Forerunners being ancient humans so that probably didn’t help. My favourite books are Contact Harvest & The Fall of Reach (though the second half of TFOR wasn’t as good as the first), Ghosts of Onyx & The flood were decent (though parts of ghost of onyx were kind of boring & it felt like the writer of the flood didn’t really get halo, but I did like the side story about the Elite that wanted revenge on MC & the grunt that was with him). Honestly I kind of slept through First Strike, even immediately after listening to it I probably couldn’t have told you what happened in it, I had to rewind it multiple times for things I missed but I just found it really boring. I was trying to get into the full expanded lore before Infinite (I’d already had a pretty decent understanding of the lore) but it killed my hype so much that I just gave up. I might give it another chance next time I do a Halo play through but it’s kind of hard to get invested into a series when you know it’s going to end badly (that’s why I never got into Game of thrones).
I don't know if you've already seen It but I just watched C3 SABERTOOTH - Halo Channel video "HALO: We WERE Forerunner!" & wow 343 screwed up Bungies lore way more then I though they did. As you are someone who likes the Forerunner Saga I'd be interested to hear your take on this because apparently the retcons the Forerunner Saga made don't even make sense in 343's Lore. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-_P-uOCKDTAA.html&ab_channel=C3SABERTOOTH-HaloChannel
Uh no lol the necrons above the forerunners, the ctan are on par with the precursors, and chaos is far beyond anything in halo. Chaos is after all a multiversal constant.
@@jarlwilliam9932have the ctan ever created entire galaxies? Have they ever filled them with life? Can the ctan use mind powers to throw galaxies around if they feel like it? Can the ctan pull you into a pocket dimension and where years pass in barely a few seconds (and not have the potential of getting thrown back or forward in time by a millennium)? Have the ctan created structures that can travel hundreds of thousands of light years and are indestructible that can change themselves at will to suit their users? Also finally are the ctan just lovecraft gods but in a different setting, because thats basically what the precursors are.
What defines 40k everything suckssss always. 40k what happend AI uprising that sucks but we got theough it with the emperors help..... He wants sons but a bunch of imalgimations of human concepts send the to the 4 corners of the galaxy oooookkkk the family back together but the sentinet intrusive thoughts tell some of his sons yeah got kill your dad he doesn't love you and so they try and put him in a coma well shit oh and without the eternao immortal emperor every human society goes back to the dark ages well fuck...... Now we find giant fungus men who like killing and just dont stop god damnit.......... Now we found a tomb of terminator and now they killll anyone near them oh god how the fuck could this get worse.....bugs bugs bugs bugs bugs FFFFFFFFUUUUUCCCCCCKKKKK!!!!!!
It always ends one of two ways: 1: The Star Roads crush the Necrons into nothing. 2: The Necrons capture a piece of technology promising tactical information over the Flood, and when the Necrons analyze it, they acquire the Logic Plague, which spreads throughout their ranks without any of them knowing it, bringing them under the Flood's control.
@@lennardchurch8483 You're clearly fanboying. Here are my supporting quotes on why I believe Necrons would wipe Forerunners at their peak off the map. "Sentient necrons wailed in sudden terror of what was to come, while the triarch praetorians stationed themselves before the Traveller. Green lightning played about his gauntlet. Then a tiny object, a sliver of Anrakyr’s own necrodermis, launched from his wrist. Part of Anrakyr, a tiny fragment of all that he was, flew with it, leaving a curious buzzing sound in its wake. Reality itself shrieked as it was violated. But this was no phenomenon born of the warp, like the unearthly powers of the eldar or a crude human starship travelling beyond celestial bodies. This was necron science at its finest, the laws of physics and the material universe exploited to their utmost. The tachyon arrow gathered mass to it like a thunderclap, manufacturing matter from the air in an alchemical transmutation. It hit the tyranid front, slicing through several of the larger creatures before impacting with the ground. The world broke. Rocks fell. Tyranids died in their hundreds. His own warriors were ripped to pieces or buried beneath tonnes of rock. Dust drifted, while tyranids hesitantly crawled over the gently glowing fused-glass wreckage of the tachyon arrow impact. They sickened rapidly, broken by the unnatural radiation leaking from the site." "Insane Overlords obliterated themselves and their tomb worlds in flares of solar fire, or were crushed to nothingness as they triggered system-spanning singularities. Unaware that these were in fact the ancient weapons of the Mephrit at work, the Imperium and other young races saw only celestial phenomena at work. Despite these losses, the Mephrit Dynasty had fared relatively well during its long slumber, having shielded itself with unimaginable acts of stellar vandalism. On the tomb world of Djagos the Jade Overlord had destroyed every star and planet for a dozen light years in all directions - scouring the void clean and leaving nothing that could threaten his hibernation. In the scarred rifts of the Aetheric Divide the Mephrit created a gravity bubble so strong, ships transitioning from the Warp in its shadow were hurled billions of miles across space. Worse still were the celestial booby-traps left for those that would trespass upon the domains of the Mephrit. Null fields resonated around some tomb worlds, plucking vessels from the sky like dying star-flies, while oxi-technomantic engines sucked the very air from the lungs of those foolish enough to enter the Mephrit’s war-crypts. The Great Sleep lasted for millions of years, however, and in that time many tomb worlds fell into ruin." "Within mere moments the two fleets neared the edge of lance range and the Necrons fired. On the bridges of the Imperial ships alarm sirens howled as massive gravitational distortions were detected hurtling towards them at speeds barely below that of light, and too late the struggling machine spirits and cogitators of the Imperial ships identified them for what they were- fragments of dead stars. These bolts of oblivion shattered void shields in bright actinic flashes and tore open the ships within with savage ease, and up and down the Imperial line, ships both great and small simply flashed out of existence. Alongside the Arica Dominus the battkecruiser Richtenback, which had served the Imperium since before the Great Crusade, was struck amidships and exploded, bathing the armada's flagship in fire and debris, shaking her to her core. Despite the tumult around him Carew issued the order for the armada to come about to broadside and fire at will, and the closing void between the two fleets became a blinding storm of blazing lance beams and plasma fire, hurtling macro-cannon shells and roaring missiles whilst the Necrons answered with a fury all of their own as blasts of emerald and amber light flickered out to splinter hulls and strip away decks." "At 1534202, local timescale, a massive gravitational flux sprang into being near the Amarah star, its shockwaves causing the sun to violently eject plasma and radiation into space in a series of massive solar flares. The fury of the injured star was such it reached as far as the orbit of the system's innermost planet, Auric, and flash-incinerated everything on its day-side in an instant. Across the Amarah system sensor-nets and auspex scanners were blinded, vox traffic was drowned out and unshielded instruments rendered useless in the electromagnetic howl of the tortured star. Last communication from Drucilla Majoris indicates sunrise as observed by primary hive overdue by seventeen hours, repeat - the sun has failed to rise, catastrophic temperature decrease globally in effect... ~ Libethra......was now a black sea of shifting ash, riven by lurid red lava - all traces of the Imperium's hand obliterated. Apollyon, dominion-world of the Ordo Malleus, was shattered, the broken debris of its continents trailing behind it in orbit like spilled blood - its moon, Elohiem Mortua, having been smashed into its surface as if by a wrathful god. It may be the case that such was the resistance of the Angels Revenant put up that the invaders resorted to breaking through Libethra's crust and unleashing the planet's molten core to seal their fate conclusively." "Fully a quarter of his ships were registered as destroyed or crippled already compared to so few of the enemy, so very few. Horror mounted on horror for the admiral as the Necron fleet, having flown past, arrested its inertia and turned back upon their course, coming right back at the Imperial ships from behind. It was an utter impossibility and yet it happened before his disbelieving eyes." "It is also one of the most powerful, containing at its heart a contained singularity torn from the core of a dying star. The Tesserect Ark can manipulate this singularity for a variety of battlefield effects, not least of which is the creation of a gravitational distortion around it to protect the Tesseract Ark from harm. From within its TEsseract Singularity chamber it can siphon and unleash storm winds of particle energy, the stolen fire of suns, and shatter the earth and crumble bastions alike with seismic tremors." "It is a relic of these ancient and apocalyptic conflicts the Night Shorud wsa built to carry -the Death Spheres - self enclosed containment vessels carrying a warhead of anti-matter able to wipe form existence anything it encounters. The true marvel of Necron science is not merely the caging of such destructive fores, but their precise control and safety of use, for should the Death spheres be broken by hostile action, their energy harmlessly dissipates out of phase with reality." As for your Logic Plague, that only affects AI which Necrons are not. They are actual living, sentient beings that were turned into living metal. Star Roads mean nothing as well when C'tan literally do much worse than that much more reliably.
@@PoutineProwler You say I'm fanboying, then you write a fanfiction in your response that blatantly exposes your ignorance of Halo lore, as you make multiple false assertions. Just taking the last two as examples: The Logic Plague afflicts any thinking being that contracts it, AI, biological mortal, and Ancilla, the formerly biological beings that the Forerunners Composed into mechanical bodies, much like what the C'tan did to the Necrons. The Necrons' equivalent already exists in the Halo universe, and has been infected with the Logic Plague. For that reason, the Forerunners developed safeguards to try to limit its spread, safeguards the Necrons don't have. The C'tan are temporal beings who were defeated and sundered by a race whose entire technological repertoire falls within the capabilities of the Forerunners, whereas the Precursors are literal eternal constants, who only let their avatars "lose" because it brings about the desired outcome in their plans that span the whole of time. The C'tan are not rendering the Star Roads irrelevant. Regarding the Forerunners vs Necrons, The Guardians alone give the Forerunners the power to obliterate the Necrons. A Guardian shows up, shuts down a star system, then several more show up, and they blow up whatever planets and fleets they're there to destroy, and the Necrons can't fight back because everything they have is shut down. Alternatively, Armor Mites could be used to decimate Necron tech, breaking and fusing joints and gears to render it inoperable. And literally everything the Necrons can do falls within the Forerunners technological abilities, but the full span of the Forerunners' abilities are not replicateable by the Necrons. @JesusRodriguez The video's about the Flood, and I was tired and responded to "Necrons vs..."
@@lennardchurch8483 none of what I said was false. All of these came from novels and you're definitely blinded by the fact that your little Halo games and books don't stack up against many other sci-fi universes. Sorry not sorry.
While this is pretty cool as a fellow fan of both halo and 40K, the nids aren’t really supposed to be known. They’re basically an eldritch monstrosity from way outside the boundaries of the known 40K universe. They’re just attracted into it by certain events I won’t get into here. They could’ve been around long before any of the known universe of 40K before they were attracted to the main stage. As for the foundation of the 40k universe, if we start at the beginning it wasn’t chaos as the beginning. Chaos developed way after. Granted to the chaos gods they feel as if they always existed and never existed until a certain point, but in my opinion that’s just a plot device for the writers. For them to be “created” by the sentient psychics in the universe, they can’t always have been there. As evidenced by the warp being a peaceful realm before the war in heaven. The beginning mythology was the old ones as far as we know. And the necrons. And the old ones telling the necrons (anti psychic force with no connection to the warp) to get bent which lead to the warp/sea of souls being changed from the positive realm of thoughts and emotions to a negative one, through the wartime actions of mostly the old ones and their creations. (The psychic users of the universe in that respective time in the setting) That’s the wh40k mythology, it’s not just chaos, because that came way after. The necrons being denied and seeking vengeance against the old ones, and eventually finding the ctan, or gods of the material non psychic universe, thus waging a ferocious war against the old ones and their psychic creations which eventually led to the sea of souls turning from a pleasant realm to a turbulent nightmarish realm that spawned horrors beyond imagination that preyed on the material realm, mostly psychics but others as well, which further fueled warring and created a cycle of the warp getting ever more nightmarish. After which the elder created a chaos god and humanity came about after the elder and created 3. Things in halo are way more concrete for the series. But wh40k is just really open ended and vague on most things. Especially the beginning of the setting. Not to mention it’s downright contradictory at times as well. Edit-tired unnoticed keyboard presses and begging->beginning.
chaos cannot exist without living creatures in the material universe so the stronger the flood became likely a new chaos god would be born and the other 4 chaos gods would lose power but 40k lore is inconsistent and my understanding is limited.
The Material Universe in 40k, and by extent the Multiverse, are just Shadows of the Warp, and the Chaos Gods are literally CONCEPTUAL beings, like, stuff like dimensionality, geography, Mathematics and all are just non existent things to the Warp and it’s Deities. Now: I might be wrong, but the Eye of Terror, i think its separate from the Warp, literally has planets that are entire Universes and Dimensions where Daemons can play with Time and Space like a ipad video game. I will try to get links.
