I forgot to say GL HF and so he forget to say... - WC3 

6:40 yeah, i don't know at what framerate Grubby is uploading, but this Hex took 8 frames to kicks in between the click and the dh being hexed, so for it to be 0.3sec cast time it would mean grubby is uploading at 27 fps. I believe instead that the cast is instant and the 8 frames delay (or whatever corresponding time) is due to his ping. Also you can see that first he clicks, the dh get instantly hexed and then sh plays hes animation I can't find any clue in the editor of why it's instant and not 0.3 sec. The 0.3 cast time + 0.25 bolt delay makes sense for manaburn but then we would expect the same kind of stats for chainlighting and healing wave (both can be dismissed between cast complete and bolt connects even if the travel time is instant, which suggest a bolt delay but there is none).

yh i feel like when it comes to storm bolt or coil, it's obvious you are dodging the projectile after they have cast it. isnt it safe to group all those spells together .. bolt or projectile?

This is correct. Chain Lightning also has 0 cast time.

To clarify some things here as a mapmaker, hopefully making things easier to understand. The units have 2 different casting stats, Cast Backswing and Cast Point. Backswing is the time for the entire animation to play out, while Point is at which point in this animation every spells the unit has begins to cast. Do note that there are several different steps a spell has to take. 1. A hero begins "channeling" a spell, this is when casting time of the spell kicks in, which can be set inside of the spell itself under the field "Casting Time", it works as a delay before everything else. 2. The hero begins casting the spell, this is what triggers the hero's Cast Backswing animation and actually fires off when reaching the Cast Point. So Cast Point is another delay for every spell that the hero has in their repetoir. 3. The hero starts the effect of a spell. The hero has now reached the Cast Point in their animation (which is 0.3 seconds for Hemon Dunter) and now the spell itself is being fired and mana is being consumed. 4. The spell finishes whatever it's supposed to do. (5. Stops casting a spell, this can happen anywhere between step 1-4 and and counts as interrupting the spellcasting, either the effect if early enough or simply the animation of the spell) Now with all of this in mind, as Grubby found, after the 0,3 seconds have cast after the Demon has selected his Mana Burn target, the spell will try to fire, however, due to the build in bolt delay of that spell specifically, it acts as a pseudo "cast time" and inserts itself before "Step 2", and so the spell never manages to actually fire and thus no mana or cooldown is incurred. Since Shadow Hunter has the same cast point of 0,3 seconds, but has neither a cast time nor a delay built in, the spell acts as an interrupt and thus triggers Step 5 and causes the Demon to stop casting the spell. ----- Trivia: Many advanced custom abilities use a hidden unit called "Dummy unit" which is a specifically created unit which has no model, no movementspeed, no turnrate, no healthbar and most important of all, 0,000 seconds cast point. This allows mapmakers to create new effects originating from this invisible unit at the precise timing that they wish for. This unit can then be created at any point in the map (with triggers of course) and be used for all funky shenanigans.

​@@Number1139.0 Lets look at Chain Lightning, it has an important component inside. It has a missile speed of 1500 (incredibly fast, but not instant) Far Seer as well does have a 0.3 seconds Cast Point, meaning that 0,3 seconds into his casting animation, he will fire off this ability which has a range of 700 and a travelling speed of 1500. Healing Wave however has no such delay that we can modify, but the bounces does have a delay of 0.25 sec. That applies to Chain Lightning as well as they're almost the same spell. This is data that's been tested and verified in patch 1.28 but is very likely still correct.

Playing ≠ watching

I couldn't work for 1 hour straight, but I can watch someone work till the end of my days.

same here bro o7

Gladly

Just forgot to research) he's microing and producing units like crazy, obviously could missed something

​@@RazielDeTam That's what I would think too, but on that time stamp he does have quite a while of down time while he creeps and saves gold for scroll. I think it's more that pillage is just very low priority and I am curious why (maybe it won't even pay itself off, or he's expecting way more units from NE since he's still assuming no NE expansion here).

@@tempname2590 if the number I have is right for cost of a moonwell it's 180 gold and 40 lumber so if only units that can use pillage hit the moonwell (not heroes), then supposedly you get 50%, so Grubby should get back 90 gold and 20 lumber if only hit with units that have pillage so if pillage costs 75/25, then it seems it is possible to pretty much earn it back from a single moonwell it does seem like an insignificant cost to get pillage, but I'm sure one is always wondering about oh I need to get one extra unit, oh I need gold for a heal scroll, oh I don't know if I'll be able to target buildings depending on how the enemy reacts I also wonder does pillage work on night elf buildings that are uprooted

​@justanobody0 I'm pretty sure you can TP to an uprooted Tree of Life, so I suspect they're still "structures", even if they might also be units.

nvm you found it haha.

Yuumans

Yes Dota 1 makes this more apparent, since many unit packages have spells they weren't "intended" to be able to cast, so more frequently have spells at varying cast speeds, or that disagree with their own speed, though you'll also sometimes notice this with creeps that have Great Value versions of hero spells. But broadly speaking, casting speed defers to whatever the fastest value exists between a caster and spell, with the notable exception that some spells have more crunchy pieces to their cast, like the tiny channel that happens at the start of Blood Mage's Flame Strike that can't be worked around, or some spells that want an animation to play to a certain point before launching their projectile, like Demon Hunter Mana Burn. If I remember correctly, some spells outright don't have a casting speed value, meaning it just defaults to whatever the value of the unit casting it is, but I could be wrong. Usually, the distinctions don't matter too much, since, again, most of these spells are usually packaged into heroes intended to use them, and so there's infrequently anything truly weird that happens, but it can play a part in knowing if spells can be interrupted or dodged, and when those interrupts or dodges have to be done.

Love it. I hate when they have the music on full blast like back2warcraft, so annoying.

​I didn't even notice until I read your comment. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if it was at the lowest volume, (thousands for grubby) but after hearing it for a few hundred hours I think it's fine to give up on it

but he literally only starts clicking hex when after he saw the mana burn starting swing so its def. not range because dh is already in range

Has nothing to do with the range in this case. It's the combined delay from both Cast Point from Demon Hunter and the Bolt Delay bringing the entire cast time of Mana Burn up to 0,55sec. Since Hex has no additional delay and only relies on the Cast Point of the casting unit, it only has 0,3sec delay before the cast goes through.

because he's a toxic streamer obviously?

@@AB-su7jt I don't think so, but now I see from the name that he just forgot

This got me thinking about how healing salve interacts indirectly with moon wells. Moonwell at it simplest is steady healing over time, delivered in chunks. HS is also healing over time, except it's expensive and *constantly* susceptible to being cancelled. So the strategy has been to get enough salves for the army, fight, withdraw and heal at a safe distance. Except when orc withdraws far enough to take time to heal, elf also benefits with their moonwell heal-over-time. Is orc spending money to buy time that elf gets to heal for free? I might be confusing myself on the details but I think how salves are being bought and used in orc v elf is worth examining

@@ambion19 I think it's very important to not dismiss that moonwells also restore significant mana for heroes. As I mentioned earlier, I think Grubby pulls away way too much from Elf encounters, especially if he is fighting next to Elf base. The moonwells just provide so much value. You need to think more about exhausting them and then pushing to win right away or just not fighting at all. You are easily losing economically even if you trade favorably in the fight, if you end up buying tons of salve/healing scroll/clarities. Now obv exp from favorable trades is not to be ignored, but trying to simply illustrate some of the reasons why Grubby is specifically struggling in this match up.

Hey Grubby, I too think this is worth examining, and recall you suggested as much ("too passive") after a recent game against Jens, I think. But I also thought you mostly did push this game and still had to out-fight your opponent the entire time, which just seems like overmuch given your early lead. I thought focusing the buildings instead of the army around ~10:30 - 12:30 and then avoiding fights for a while to allow an economic advantage to materialize (as you recently commended a member of the chat for perceiving) would have been a good, lower-effort play.

New graphics A: have less visual clarity and B: straight up just look worse. WC3 classic vs Reforged I think is a good case study of how art style trumps graphics.

Grubby has many videos explaining all the ways in which reforged is worse. It's a long story but the whole project was a failure and then basically abandoned by activision

Because it sucks

To simplify Many units were redesigned in ways that reduce visual clarity. Base WC3 made graphical concessions on models to improve how easy it is to distinguish different models at a glance; these redesigns of creeps, units, and heroes often forgo visual clarity for what we'll call quality of visuals, to the detriment of actually telling these visuals apart or playing the game. Many units are also a combination of proportionately bigger, and have less negative space on the model, which means even if you can accurately parse units from eachother, actually clicking the unit you want to becomes more difficult. The item chest in particular is replaced with a floating, bobbing model that you can sometimes miss. Many of the spell, skill, and interface thumbnails and icons were changed, meaning people with years and years of experience with the old ones would have to relearn all these icons. Some units have different voicelines and, most importantly, death cries, which, in addition to being again more relearning required to parse information quickly like the icons, some units recieved ambiguous death cries, which can be misinterpreted. If two exact copies of a person are playing eachother, and one is playing base WC3, and one playing with Reforged graphics on, the base WC3 player has an advantage entirely on the basis of better, more efficient information parsing, and better interface and more accurate micro. Not a huge advantage, but an undeniable one. Basically, the presentation overhaul was made without the level of care and attention that base WC3 was. WC3 was very, very mindful of the interweave between presentation and playability, and made many, many compromises or concessions on quality or direction of presentation to facilitate the game being played. Reforged simply does not have this same level of awareness, and in the rush to justify itself and its price tag, greatly overreached in what it should do. It touched things that didn't need to be, and really shouldn't have been touched, and sacrificed playability for presentation wherever it could, because it wasn't made/directed by people who understood why base WC3 was presented the way it was. This is before and completely aside from the other, more nebulous social and critical issues it faces.

He was creeping with units somewhere else

xp is global unless a hero is near to xp source

didnt you see his ancient creeping with archers

AoW is to be fair a high level tactic, anything actually killed by the ancient gives no exp, so it requires attentive micro.

apparently wc3 now has global xp so your archers can kill something on the other side of the map and the hero gets xp, unless you have another hero that is close by to the archers