Did I find the system to finally get me to leave 5e? Check out! @BobWorldBuilder @TheDungeonCoach @saraphys5555 Kickstarter Link: thedungeoncoach.com/products/... Check it out, using this link will help out me and the channel!
Fantastic Video by the way... and I know I am a contrarian... but... I have been reading on DC20 a bit and I find it fascinating, not because of the game but because of, quite honestly, the TTRPG market which is really charming. Because of the small scale of that industry it is like peewee bloodsports... like giving kindergartners baseball bats and telling them to just go nuts at each other to sort out their differences. Adorable, terrifying and likely highly profitable if put on pay-per-view! I have been reading and hearing a lot about DC20... but I feel like there are some things that aren't being said out loud yet. Though of course credit to the devs, they have truly captured the zeitgeist of marketing at the moment, well done, their system has likely outperformed anything WotC has released since Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes... that said... I don't see see this game having much in the way of legs, and I think DC20 might be the best news that D&D has had in YEARS. Now you might be asking yourself, how does competition to D&D benefit D&D? Well, it is simple really, because Joe has $100. Whether Joe spends that money on Daggerheart, D&D, Pathfinder or DC20 is important because Joe is only going to be spending $100 between all of them... and there are a fixed number of Joe's kicking around. If I were WotC I would be dancing with joy right now. I know you saw my last video Tori, I don't have much respect for WotC's leadership to do anything to help themselves... but in this instance, it looks like Christmas came early, oh boy, is it one hell of a present under their tree! So lets look at the competition... D&D is the king of the kill in the industry. Nothing is going to unseat that, not really and certainly not long-term. I don't believe it is in a good place financially due to mismanagement but, brand recognition wins in this front. It is clear that DC20 is competing for 5e players but it can't really hope to win that fight or have a meaningful impact because of that brand recognition. If well managed (they aren't) they could easily cut some costs and not suffer a meaningful difference. Pathfinder is certainly the number 2 contende. It has video games and by virtue of that brand recognition, and it also had the added bonus that its original edition was a Copypasta of D&D's 3.5 ruleset. So... yeah, it had the great blessing of players simply being able to cross over with the mechanics being virtually identical. This game really seems to have more appeal to the older crowd who miss the complexity of previous editions. It is clear by inserting action economy DC20 is an attempt to compete with Pathfinder but I don't think it will impact Pathfinder. Pathfinder is also sort of the 'high pressure valve' for D&D where people tend to go when they get pissed at WotC and/or find 5e boring. Daggerheart, less a game with a marketing department and more a marketing department with a game, the people who essentially can take a lot of credit for making D&D as popular as it is started their own game and brought it to market. Where DC20 clearly appears to be marketing to the '5e crowd' looking for a similar alternative it is clearly competing with Daggerheart for those looking for an alternative to 5e. Given that Daggerheart's creators have a stronger record of marketing to the 5e crowd that D&D has to marketing to its own customers Daggerheart is likely the biggest threat to D&D's stranglehold on the TTRPG market.... why? because they are a marketing department with a game. Nobody else on this list has a hope of competing for brand recognition with D&D! What does this mean... If (and it is a BIG if), DC20 has the legs to truly compete in this sector, what is most likely to happen in terms of 'Joe's? Well Lets assume that right now there are 100 'Joe's in general. D&D has 60 'Joe's Pathfinder has 5 'Joe's The other dozens of games out there have about 35 Joe's between them though no individual game having ore than 1 or 2. Now with the release of Daggerheart and recent situations with D&D I think it is safe to say that D&D is ripe to lose about 10 of their 'Joe's. Just because of how well Pathfinder is positioned they get an extra Joe. WIthout DC20, I would expect that Daggerheart would pick up 8 Joe's which would have put them in a strong position. While one of those other random games pick up 1 Joe between them. But with DC20 in the mix to compete for that same audience as Daggerheart, well, D&D gets to kick back and relax because suddenly they know that those Joes are going be making their way back as loyal D&D 'Joe's. So now... D&D Has 50 'Joe's Pathfinder has 6 'Joe's Daggerheart has 4 'Joe's DC20 has 4 'Joe's Suddenly you have what would have been D&D's greatest competition (Daggerheart) reduced to half the potential revenue which begs the question... is it profitable enough for the devs to bother with? The best shot of the D&D stranglehold being broken was a major success for Daggerheart but if Daggerheart was to be the D&D 'killer', toppling them from their ivory tower... DC20 is the D&D 'killer' 'killer', likely to deny them the chance to do it. Instead of breaking the D&D monopoly, they cause a bunch of smaller companies to compete and cannibalize With more small competition smaller games go away as they continue to fight for scraps and you likely see Daggerheart and DC 20 folks drift back to D&D as it is easier to find players to play with. I find the whole situation utterly hilarious, and maybe I am wrong... but if I were at WotC I would be sending a fruit basket to the DC20 team because they likely just saved them a ton of money on marketing costs to compete with Daggerheart!
Hey buddy! Indeed. I'm actually looking forward to maybe hearing your thoughts on it? ;) (seriously. One thing that I'm curious about is how this looks\feels to more old school gamers)
The off-turn player engagement in combat is the problem 5e and pf2e didnt know they had that DC20 addresses. you can react a lot so you are rewarded for paying attention on other players turns.
Yeah, some classes in pf2 have powerful teamwork reactions (champion in particular has a reaction that's arguably their most powerful feature) but it's certainly not a given.
This sounds like a nightmare to gm for, I already have a hundred things to manage, now I gotta remember and pause the game for all this extra reactions?
@@sethb3090 I don't trust my players to not forget a highly volatile floating resource, come on its a thing that change every turn and they might use or not, even with tokens or side paper this sound like too much complicated, the players will use their reactions, forget they did, then use their 4action or however many they think they have in their turn. This is worst than conditions cause at least with conditions they end in certain turns, this one can end anytime based on the players whims and nobody will remember
It took me years in various ways to understand the concept, but so helpful when I did. In fact another word for that might me "constraints" creativity flourishes under constraints. There is such thing as too open. . .
Pathfinder 2e does have some DNA in DC20. The ones I can think of are access to combat techniques as feats, choosing feats on level up in general, the +2/4/6/8 as you increase skills (with level caps - in Pathfinder it's level 3 to start raising skills to expert, 7 for master, 15 for legendary), and of course the famous three action economy (which, for the record, I think DC20 has actually improved on).
It is about the same in practice. The bigger thing is higher level in pf you get more reactions. Dc20 you can react up to 4 times but you do not get a turn.
@@guamae Reactions are cool too, but I'd argue that what really sets the system apart is the way it treats its actions. PF2 has basic actions like Strike, Stride, etc, but most advanced stuff is either a new action or an activity that takes a specific number of actions (for example, Sudden Charge is two Strides followed by a Strike as a two action activity). DC20, by contrast, gives you basic actions and then allows you to pay further action and other costs to dynamically modify those basic actions.
@@sethb3090 yeah.. I can see a "standard" course of action to be to use 2 Actions to attack at Advantage, and then 2 more to make a flat attack... And the fact that the damage and To Hit rolls are the same roll is something I'm quite fond of.
my absolute favourite thing about the DC20 is the weapon passives and abilities, making whether you use a longsword or a battleax actually affect the way you fight is super cool.
Hi Tori as a 5E turned Pathfinder 2 turned Pathfinder 2 heavy homebrewer. I really think DC20 will be the closest game to my personal ideal High Fantasy game. Also great video!
Definitely an improvement! It is why I play the Hero System, more of a crunchy toolkit system. Players can pick characteristics and abilities, al a carte, which DC20 does with ancestry, not with classes and other abilities. I am sure I will play DC20 with players that want a medium crunch system.
“Dexterity” in its original usage meant “fine motor skills, especially with the hands”. Picking a lock, playing guitar or piano, performing surgery, these all require great dexterity. Dexterity is not going to help you avoid an AoE attack; that’s agility. “Agility” is “nimbleness; the ability to change the body’s direction quickly.” D&D conflated agility with dexterity. Dexterity saving throws in 5e are actually agility. I think stealth should be really be dependent upon dexterity (light on your feet) and perception. In Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, agility and dexterity are separate attributes.
As a pathfinder 2e player, sorry you had so many of THOSE PF players doing that. Its honestly embarrassing as hell being a normal PF2e player because it gets so easy for people to put us normal PF players into that sneering, superiority complex-type mem of an archetype. I'm SUPER excited for DC20 and, so long as things continue to seem good, will likely be switching systems as well
As a normal PF2 player the one thing I will say is it gets tiring seeing people (that don't play PF2) go "what if we homebrewed 5e by doing..." and then list a mechanic or feature that PF2 already has. Apart from that? It's pretty chill. I play both, soon to be all three!
Genuinely asking, where are these people? I play 5e but my DM has been talking about PF2e for a year or so now to me and another player after games, and it's made me visit places like the subreddit and accompanying discord server. I keep hearing about THOSE PF2e players but I've yet to see them with any regularity. What turns me off about PF2e isn't the players themselves, it's people spreading this thing that they're insufferable, and it makes me sad because that makes the other people in my 5e group not want to play it. I want to play different games, not just whatever CR is playing.
@RogueGengarActual it is a small group of pf2e players. Just remember your play group would be the people you play your games with. So as long as your group is good try every game.
Question for you, since you've run it. Does keeping track of actions in a round not bog down? If anyone can burn 1 of 4 actions to use as a reaction, to the point that could actually have no turn left, how does it handle when everyone is doing it? For example. A combat of 8. 4 players. 4 monsters. Everyone has an initiative. Monster 1 takes a turn. Player 1 reacts burning an action. Monster 2 reactions in response. Monster 3 reactions in response to take advantage of whatever happened. Player 2 reactions to try and stop them. So on and so forth. How does combat not break down into adjucating which reactions goes when and keeping track of almost a sub-initiative within the initiative count? How do people even make it to their turn with an action left?
@@jpmilligan213 In the online game I run on Foundry the character sheet has an action tracker that removes actions as you use abilities from your sheet and restores all actions on a single button click when you end your turn. In my local game we use a D4 as an action tracker. Just change the die as you go, though the clickity clackety woods ones on the KS would be cooler. I just handle reactions in the order that they're declared. At level 1 monsters don't all have reactive abilities, and I've thrown minimal caster enemies at them so far for spell duels. This will ramp up with level, but for now I haven't seen people over use reactions to not have a turn. They want to do things on their turn for mechanic or thematics and not all of those fit into reactions.
My group is a family (mom, dad, daughter) and they are moving houses so the next 2 weeks will have no DnD but when we meet next we'll have sesh zero and go from there. One of these videos takes days to a week to make so it may be a while but it will happen!
Fair points about races. If you can take abilities from other races without being related to them, then why assign these by race at all? You _could_ see these traits as what is conventional for their kind, and take creative liberties with your own pcs. Such as going full Terry Pratchett and have a human raised by dwarves, and that's why they have some of their feats without being a descendant.
Four different levels - easiest is a default set of ancestry traits which is easy, viable, and iconic. Second is switching out a few of the default traits for some other ancestry associated traits. The third is mixed like your classic half-elf, and the fourth is fully customized.
Oh ya. Could be the "raised by" othion. However it would have to be explainable in a physical manor. If you were raised by dwarves you may act like them in personality and culture but if you're physically a human you're still taller. So physical effective traits may need more explanation. Hmmm. 🤔
@@tntori5079physical aspects can be cross-breeding, magical experimentation, a genetic anomaly, or any number of things. Heck, you can remove aspects to customize races, such as saying “Nobody has darkvision”, giving a different aspect to make up for it.
Everybody should go play Divinity: Orginal Sin 2. So far in playing DC20, there are a lot more things to do then attack. The advanced traits for each ancestry is probably what I would have if you want to stay the ancestry, I do prefer the buffet style, but that is very much a personal taste thing. Good video.
I do find DC20 to be pretty interesting - not much of a fan of the Prime Modifier system, but the rest is quite nice! I don't think it's quite crunchy enough for me yet, but it seems fun. It all depends for me on whether the DM's side of things is well thought out - will there be good rules for exploration and interesting monster designs? If so, it might be a real winner.
Incidentally, if you like Spell Points, there's a Variant Rule in the 5e DMG to use Spell Points. When my friends and I did a short intro adventure for some new people, we just all defaulted to Spell Points, because it was so much easier to explain.
Hi, I'm Codi from the (also small) RU-vid channel Slow Your Role. Just wanted to say, great video! It feels great to be a part of such an awesome community promoting awesome content. Also, don't take it personal when the algorithm starts pushing this video to people that don't care as much about DC20 and give senselessly negative feedback 😆
I'm so glad that DC20 is getting discovered by so many D&D content creators. DC20 is an underdog in the RPG space when compared to Matt Covils fanbase and the Critical Roll fanbase. It's awesome that such a small creator has made such a well designed RPG and is being rewarded so highly for it.
I'm coming from a very similar place. I've looked into these other systems, and had the same thought. Nothing I've seen in other systems offers enough to to take the time and effort to entirely change to a new system. I also haven't had the greatest impression from Pathfinder either. DC20 does borrow some ideas from PF2, like the action point system, but then takes out the what I would call "dumb" part of it. in PF2 you would have to use an entire action to open a door. DND just calls this a free object interaction. for DC20 there is a "minor" action that accounts for this, so there isnt a "gotcha" moment. This is really the only thing I've seen that I would considering switching from 5e for.
Sounds like we are in the same boat. I've heard DC20 called the "lovechild" of pathfinder2e and 5e. And if so that works for me! I've also heard it called the real 6th edition and I feel it has earned that title so far. More videos will go up as I play test it myself and eventually when I can run it past my party.
In the same boat as you guys. Learned 5e but wasn't interested enough to learn all the rules for these newer RPGs. (At least not to GM for). DC20 seems basically like a better version of what I was already home-brewing my DnD games to be. The only one I'm actively interested in. I have the same feeling of "Damn... I might just be a DC20 player now", lol
DC20 is honestly a good 5e replacement, I would also like to recommend looking into MCDM if you are hungry for tactical I am really loving the design process along the way similarly to my enjoyment of dc20's adventure. I am really happy to see his success
my personal only turn off for MCDM is that HP will likely get out of control at higher levels. the tactician has 51 HP at level one. that is just nuts to me. MCDM also has to contend with the inherent 4e problem that the game gets unwieldy at higher levels. One of the 4e designers was talking about how he was running 4e at a con when it was new and there was this sigh of engaged exhaustion (in a good way) after the combat. "this is at level one! imagine it at higher levels!" he told the players. he continued his story by saying what they didnt realize at the time he was unknowingly inferring is that turns will just take long at later levels, which is true. MCDM has to solve this problem which is hard at the moment because their game only has one level as of now (unless they released more, i just poke my head in every once in a while to see how it is going).
@@MagiofAsura everything is going through a lot of test iterations, even the last playtest I was in is a ways behind at .0331 I think the current packet is .0381 but yeah when things started off Hp had to be really high because our rolls were our damage and were averaging around 10 damage a hit from monsters. My tacticians HP was 39 with being the most HP design at the time, tactician+dwarf+heavy armor/shield. The current goal is also 10 levels rather than 20 which may impact overall final HP. I am hoping to get to do some playtesting with this most recent packet to see how things have changed further. But so far I am having a lot of fun with it.
I'm sorry other Pathfinder fans have been not nice. =( That breaks my heart. I haven't had that experience, but I'm sorry you have. I'm overjoyed that now that the "dragon" in the cave is wounded, we can explore other systems! PF2, DC20, ICRPG, Cypher, Marvel Multiverse, Starfinder... yes please, more games!
But your Ancestry breakdown is confusing. You get 5 points to use. Whether you take all 5 points into 1 ancestry or take the 5 points across more than one ancestry, you have 5 points. And only a single 0 point ancestry feature per character. Regardless of what you build, it's 5 points. Ancestries are completely balanced that way.
Huh. I daresay that was the piece of the puzzle I was missing. I already and trying to sort out a follow up video because of all the responses here. I'm glad I saw this so I can go back and readdress.
To me the biggest selling point for dc20 is how much fun you can have at levels 1 and 2, most people start campaigns at lvl 3 because of how limited the game feels below that. I have DMed a few oneshots and can get really epic for the players, but I want to see how the game feels once subclasses are implemented
I played AD&D, 3.5, and 5e. I wanted more out of my 5e games and started home brewing. For more ideas I turned to RU-vid. I happened to find DC a few years ago. The OGL thing happened and I knew I didn’t want to support WoTC anymore. I’ve been reading and exploring other systems but nothing has grabbed my attention to want to make my players switch to another system. The past year DC has been making videos about DC20. This is the first system that excites me enough to declare I will be running my games using DC20. I supported his first kick starter so I know the quality of his work. I’m excited to have supported this second Kickstarter on day one and begin beta testing as soon as the Kickstarter closes. I hope to see more DC20 video from you. I heard about your channel from DC earlier tonight. 😊
Action one, I move up 2 spaces, action 2 I hit them with my sword, action 3 I disengage, then i use the rest of action one to move 3 spaces away and stand by my friend, and use the help action for number 4.
I agree that the ancestry points thing maybe feels... too free to do whatever you want. It would make a lot more sense if it was "you can pick traits from your race and add a second one if you want" rather than mix and match everything. But at the same time beastborn being 50 different traits that you can mix and match helps not having to have 100 different races where one is a bird, and one is a frog, and one is a monkey, and one is a slightly different bird etc
I like the setup and the way beast is handled. The only thing I don't like is the idea that you can pick dwarf traits (per say) and not Roleplay or technically "be" a dwarf. In my games if you pick dwarf traits it means you have dwarf in you and that should either manifest in some way or explain or such. Basically I just don't want someone to play a half horse half fish or such. I'd like it to make some semblance of sense. Even if you reach and use "magic" as a maguffin to explain it - at least you explained it
The video might go a bit overboard. The default is two lineages. Making a custom ancestry by grabbing traits from the full buffet is a variant rule that requires gm approval.
With regard to the Ancestry system. Good point about boundaries being supportive of creativity. I just suggested to the DC20 devs: "Here are three changes I suggest: 1) Include an officially reflavored name and lore-bit for every Trait, cross-referenced for every Ancestry! Like: Halfing Bravery = Elven Valor = Orcish Ferocity = Angelborn Courage = Fiendborn Ferocity, etc. AND ALSO: 2) Officially include the explanation that taking a Trait can either mean: A) You have that bloodline or B) You learned that Trait from a friend of that Ancestry who taught you how to do it (hey, it's a magical world, why not learn from a Dwarf how to see in the dark!)...or C) You learned that Trait from fighting enemies of that Ancestry. AND: 3) Explain that players must write that on their Ancestry line. Like, if the Human has Elven blood, then "Human/Elf". But if the Human learned the Trait from an Elven friend or enemy, then write: "Human / Elf-Friend" or "Human / Elfbane".
Interesting ideas. I did learn a bit more on the system which I'll be putting in a follow up video. I like the idea of having different names for the same thing. I think of the traits a biological more than anything. Even with magic, me personal head cannon is that no learned skill or spell can truly replicate a dwarf's racial traits. Something they were born with. That's my idea so far anyway =)
I've been following The Dungeon Coach for a few years now, and I was very excited when he announced DC20. I chatted briefly with you in the live stream chat yesterday, and today, RU-vid showed me your channel! New subscriber here, and yes... I absolutely agree, I'm done with 5e. I'm enjoying Pathfinder 2e right now, but I'm also backing the Kickstarter and looking forward to playing DC20!!
I enjoyed this video. Just now on the DC20 Discord, I posted: "I agree with TnTori about keeping "Dexterity" instead of "Agility." I mean, "Charisma" and "Intelligence" weren't changed to "Presence" and "Logic", so might as well keep the DnD flavor of "Dexterity" too. In fact, if the new name "Might" signals a newly combined attribute (STR+CON), then if any other score should be be renamed, it would be Intelligence, since it's now INT+WIS."
Thank you for stopping by! It's a minor gripe but I'm glad I'm not the only one! I'm with you. Might makes sense as it's a combo/alternate to the STR CON stats but DEX is just DEX. Another commenter mentioned something bout it being a license thing. I'm not 100% but it might explain it.
I prefer the whole-body coordination flavor of “Agility” myself. Dexterity is explicitly manual, (I mean, the word descends from the Latin for “right hand”.) whereas agility implies gross motor function. Both work, I suppose, but either way it implies a compression of function: manual dexterity and physical agility. If I’m picking a pocket, it’s probably dexterity, but spinning heelkick is agility. I don’t fault anyone for preferring Dexterity; I just hear the words this way.
To clarify, each of the ancestries to DC 20 have a list of expanded traits that are thematic for that race. You are free to swap any of the standard ones out for the others to tweak the flavor of your character without picking traits from another ancestry. Additionally, there are some options to take a negative trait (this is not an actual one that I know of but example: Orcs having a lower intelligence) in order to gain more points to spend on acquiring more positive powerful traits so you can build a character with both strengths and weaknesses.
Like a year and a half ago, I was also in the "5e gets the job done"' boat. After dipping my toe into 1 new system, I found an interest in a second then a third. I particularly love to see how other games weave their themes into the mechanics. These games gave me a stronger idea of out what I want from a TTRPG then I realized that 5e was not fulfilling that without homebrew. My love for 5e diddles as I try other games. I recommend Legend In The Mist to anyone reading this
Agility is probably a more accurate descriptor, actually. Dexterity normally to non gamers is about doing fine work with your hands not dodging and weaving in combat
DC20 has become my D20 system of choice. My own design stuff is geared toward a rules-lite approach, but DC20 is keeping me from abandoning the D&D gaming model. It helps that the Dungeon Coach seems like such a good, genuine guy. It’s interesting to see the design approaches I’ve been taking in a non-D20 system being applied in a D20 system. I’m a first-day backer and looking forward to seeing the continued refinements in the system.
"DC" is a shorthand used by 5e for a rules mechanic which 5e revolves around. DC20 is homebrew alternate rules USING 5e. You left 5e for a different incarnation of D&D.
First time coming across you channel. I have been looking up a lot about DC20 and you brought up some good stuff, so I'd be interested in your follow up "review" once you get a few sessions under your belt. Keep up the great work!
As someone who moved onto greener pastures over a year ago, and cannot go back to 5e even if others offer to run them because of all the crippling flaws I can no longer ignore... DC20 looks incredible. It fixes everything I have issues with 5e while keeping all the spirit of it. I'm planning to use this as my casual rule system them Pathfinder 2 as my enthusiast system
DC20 looks like it will be a very popular version of homebrewed DND, still a bit too much going on in the rules for me but hey ya never know i may try it. Cool vids!, Keep 'em Rollin'
I really am loving that DC20 is taking off with so many people, and with refinement in the beta, I'm sure it's going to iron out all the wobbly-rules things very nicely. While I and my group are sticking with Pf2e (sorry! And yes, PF2e fans can be negative depending on where you look), I'm backing DC20 because it show so much innovation and creativity. I want more systems like this to exist. I hope to see a lot of live-plays pop up of this system after the Beta goes out. I hope it catches on like wildfire.
You're the first person who has made a video about this system that didn't feel like it was telling me to be ashamed for still liking dnd. As someone who is hyped for the 2024 rules update, but still interested in the new games coming out, I really appreciate a level headed and down to earth video like this. I am more willing to give dc20 a shot then I was before, and I've accepted that I can play both dnd AND dc20 too.
I also will be chatting with my party here soon. They have some stuff going on so I won't see them for a bit of a break. But I plan on running little solo sessions and duo session with my husband\4th player.
I think he tweaked ancestry so there's more pure X species so pure ancestry gets to load up on more of that species traits. I will have to double check that
DC20 probably would have gotten me before 2020 when 2nd ed Pathfinder came out. I adopted 5e early and was disatisfied with it after a few years and went back to Pathfinder 1st ed. Pathfinder 2 is perfect for my group but it may be too tactical for most groups so I am glad to hear that this very similar sounding game is appealing to 5E fans. I just wish it had a better name.
@@tntori5079 I am not sure what would be a good name off the tip of my head but I do know that DC20 will be a problem for search engine optimization and a wider market appeal. It is not apparent what DC means as opposed to other game titles which can be self evident. The name works as a system but just doesn't work for a product line. Outside of RU-vid I really fell like the name could be a problem down the line.
Players going for dual ancestry I would probably deny non-human expanded traits unless they pay -1 point, so it is decided up front and they actually have a benefit for single ancestry and human is still common.
There's a thought. I don't really *want* to restrict my players. At the same time it's hard for me to rationalize/ground a world when you've got alien/beast/angel/demons walking around. Though Coach said you don't *have* to play those traits. If you don't play them what's the point of having said trait be a "dwarf" line? hmmm.
awesome video, i really like the comparison with DoS2, never even thought of that even though i've played the game a lot xD also i 100% agree with you on spell slots, it's by far the most unintuitive thing to explain to new players
And there other cool things I didn't even mention! I'm glad you like the DoS2 notes. It was that very comparison in my head that made me first look into the system!
With all of the new systems coming out, there have really only been 2 that have interested me. DC20 and Shadowdark. We just played Shadowdark this last weekend for the first time using the starter rules and it was great fun. I loved the simplicity. I'm looking forward to DC20 too, but for different reasons. I like the Mana and especially the upcasting. I like the 4 action economy. The option for multiple reactions seems awesome. I haven't gotten too much into the martial points vs mana points, though, and I'm skeptical about whether I'll like it or not. Other pieces too seem more cumbersome than worthwhile. I probably won't back the Kickstarter, but I'll certainly take a look at the final version and see if it's what I want.
5e has a mana point variant rule. the spell slot levels increase at every odd level. at 5th level you have 16 mana points with access to 3rd level spells. Normally a full caster would have 4 1st level spell slots, 3 2nd level, 2 3rd level. You can spend them far more dynamically in the variant rule. cast 16 first level spells or on 5 3rd level spells & 1 first level spell. outside of baked in tradition, im not sure why 5e doesnt just move into mana points instead of spell slots. They would be able to cut out 7 columns of spell slot information from full caster tables just boiling down to spell level max and mana points.
I kind of like spell slots because otherwise, I feel like myself and other players would just use their strongest spells. Once I hit level 5, for example, why not just use fireball every turn?
@@dAWwr906 having used spell points for a level 20 one shot, and for a 1-15 campaign.. sometimes players will do that but that also means they run out of resources a lot faster.. they have to decide if that is worth it or not. It also means that they have access to more shields and such without having to use higher level spell slots. overall I found *most* of the time they used a larger variety of spells than when they were having to choose a spell slot. It is of course a million times more versatile than vancian spellcasting (as is used in older editions and by prepared spellcasters in pathfinder) which was the bane of my existence in the 90s but i didnt know any better!
Obviously with new systems, players wanna try things out (gods know mine did!), but yeah... "New system, who dis?" is always fun for the GM! :D Have fun with DC20!
Side note: I wanted to let you know they put a limit on my end cards. Sorry I wasn't able to put you channel up but I'll add it to the description here in a moment! (Since I missed putting you up there).
We basically come from the same place on this! You even swayed me on your opinion about race selection! Even down to the point of not feeling PF2 because of the players. Wayyy too intense lol. Wasn't into that energy!
I knew I couldn't be the only one! I did later learn/realize that I probably wasn't very fairtothem. Not all p2e fans are the same...but it's good to know that my initial feelings are shared! Yes, I will certainly make my players actually roleplay their racial traits. If they want to be half horse half elf that's fine but they gotta explain that one XD
@@tntori5079 Haha! In detail! So far it looks like there are plenty of avenues for roleplay. I'm super into the fate rolls too. I'm more of a narrative player. So, I hope I get to play with people who enjoy *role* playing with these mechanics
During making I learned more about how much dc20 took from p2e and I also realized I had not been fair or objective about it. You're right to call that out =) and I appreciate you stopping by and leaving a comment. (Hint there is a seed of a video where I address this)
I agree with you on the pure ancestry. I feel there should be a benefit for that otherwise there no reason not to have 2. As for the casters feeling kind of the same when boiled down to mana points, its the same for 5e spell slots if you remove class features. On the flip though i feel DC20s caster class features really make them feel unique from each other.
I went back through Coach's caster video after publishing (actually I've been going through a lot of stuff) and I came to kind of the same conclusion. I plan to make a follow up video addressing that and a few other things. =)
Oh really? I need to look into that. A friend gave me an adventure as a gift and I don't want to not be able to use it. That said I'm too excited about DC20 not to use it too.
I feel like 5e is a watered down 3.5e and Pathfinder 1e is basically dnd 3.75. I know a lot of people call it mathfinder but you should check out older editions of dnd. Check out World of Darkness, Vampire, Exalted, Call of Cthulhu, Legends of the Five Rings, Transformers, and more. Give them all a chance. I pull a little but from each into my games.
As for being mono-ancestry, I'd like it if there was one ancestry trait per ancestry that was reserved for only mono-ancestries so that there would be *some* incentive to do so.
It's mind blowing. . . I have no words. I'm so grateful. I deff will be making a follow-up and eventually more DC20 stuff. I improved my style a bit to more quickly make the animated videos
i have an opposite criticism for the agility thing. i find it weird he didn't rename all 4 stats. it makes sense he called it agility since that's just a similar word to dexterity, same with how might means strength. i for the life of me don't understand why only those two got renamed though. also someone on reddit recently brought up that martials still need just a tiny bit extra to work with besides maneuvers. like full on special move techniques or something.
I could see that... As in; if your going to rename 2 of them why not all of them. I like Might and CHA and INT. I'm sure Agility will grow on me over time.
I left DnD last year and I don't feel the need to flock to DnD that's trying to be Pathfinder, I have other games to play. I may have looked into it but their pricing is CRAZY. $30 for a PDF is pretty high let alone $90 for that same pdf and barely anything else. For triple the price you get maybe a 16th of a book extra
I can understand, especially if you already have other systems. Since I still ran 5e and the cost of a hard cover and PDF was about the same a what wizards would charge it worked for me. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone =)
lmao, the thing about pf fans is so true. Like, homeslice, that's a full college textbook for a game that is made for people who do not like colouring outside the lines No thanks XD
Typically that it was I do. Namely with video games. I never Pre-ordered or such and I avoid videos and trailers and such. This was my first Kickstart and I think it's okay once in a while to let yourself get some hype. Since I already have the alpha I can playtest the meat of it beforehand and to me it was already in a good enough state to at least pitch in a few dollars =) in general thoguh I get you.
I can see where you're coming from. It's wonderful to support that which you want to see more of in the world. This hype train is huge, so it's good to be cautious. So far, no one has a bad thing to say about it, and that's a red flag for me.
@@user-cm4gc9to9o There have been a few minor things. I think Bob World Builder's video and Supergeek's video highlight a few. But your right that there's very little in terms of negativity on it. I think a lot of that is because of what it actually is. The rules it uses (aside from a couple USPs) are all existing rules that have been tried and tested for years. You don't need to worry about an AP system too hard when P2e has already been doing it with great success. The core is there and solid. It's in the class execution we might see some more rough edges I think.
@@user-cm4gc9to9o The system has been in Alpha since last year so what you are seeing now has already gone through a lot of feedback and revisions, many rules have been discarded and modified thanks to playtesting.
It sounds cool and all but more action points (to me) means slower combat. I need systems that simplify player choice, not bog it down more. Not a game for me. But that’s ok :) not everything was made for me. 5e has similar problems, but the rigid action economy makes for quicker turns. I’ll stick with wotc til they inevitably anger my players again… then I might try something else.
having played with the 3 actions in pf2e, I actually think having set actions helps a lot. when I was still playing 5e I was constantly having to ask "are you going to move?", "do you have a bonus action?", "are you done with your turn?" ect. and even then sometimes half way through the next turn "oh! i have this bonus action can I use it?" or something would happen. It is much easier to count the actions and move on. there is no last minute "oh i forgot this, can i add such and such?". You moved, demoralized, attacked, your done, moving on.
My main concern with different systems is the 3 pillars. Many sell themself on their combat pillar and I'm thinking... so, Exploration and Social? How is equipment weight handled, what does the foraging system look like, what about crafting and gathering materials with-which to craft? On the social side, how many people can we hire, at what cost, can we command armies, if so how large, etc, etc. From what I've seen so far, DC20 looks like a combat plug-in for 5e. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise but that's my hot-take.
I can see where you're coming from. So much outside combat is roleplay for so many tables. It's easy to forget about it from a rules perspective. Not everyone needs 'rules' for outside stuff. I think that's what I like best about the skill challenge system as you can plank it I anywhere. However that is really not dependent on dc20 - can be any system. I just first learned about it I dc20.
On his channel he talks about as the Beta goes on the other two pillars will be more fleshed out. From what I've heard him talk about the social and exploration definitely sound intriguing, and honestly WOTC 5e exploration wasn't a strong point in my option, older Editions did it better and 3rd party 5e systems do it better as well
I’m really sorry some of the pathfinder community was rude to you. They can be intense sometimes. DC20 feels like a rules light version of pathfinder with much simpler character creation
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