I Never Knew AI Could Improve TV Picture Quality in These Ways… 

It's extremely frustrating to have people act like artificial intelligence is new and not something Nvidia was doing since 2018. This is why people think Nvidia is a bubble. They think it's all new....

I wonder how nvidia's ai upscaling compares to sony and samsung tvs.

​@@aquaneon8012 I guess we'll have to wait and see when these new TV's release. Though to be honest I feel like it'll be hard to compete with Nvidia. The fact is that even with my 4070 TI, AI upscaling uses a decent amount of power and about 20-40% GPU usage. It was unusable with my old 3070 laptop as it created too much heat and sounded like a jet engine. So if a 3070 mobile (equivalent to a PS5 in terms of speed) was reasonably taxed by this then it's hard too believe the cheap Soc's in Tv's will have enough grunt to run a similar algorithm without it being sufficiently less sophisticated. Then again maybe they've come up with a more efficient method than Nvidia (doubtful) or are finally using a decently fast chip (even more doubtful). So who knows.

The thing is, there are bandwidth limitations even using DSC (display stream compression) - so getting a high hz signal, for example a 240hz 4k 10bit 444(rgb) HDR signal to the tv first over the existing port and cable limitations using DSC, and THEN using hardware on the TV to upscale could be more efficient and get higher performing results than sending a pre-baked (4k upscaled to) 8k signal from the nvidia gpu at lower hz. Especially with the way nvidia has allotted bandwidth on their ports up until now, (60hz 8k max, 7680x2160 at 120hz max, limits on multiple 240hz 4k screens) - though that could change with the 5000 series potentially. Unless they started putting nvidia upscaling hardware on gaming monitors/tvs someday perhaps. That's from a perspective of using a gaming TV as a multi-purpose PC gaming + desktop display, with some media usage.

I think you are comparing a cgi rendering to a real time game so to speak. You can pre-bake/upscale movies, sure, you can even buy movies that have been upscaled. From what I understand, Topaz works best with tweaked configuration per title or even clip, and though it's pretty fast on a powerful gpu it would take awhile to render/AI upconvert a big library of videos. AI upscaling/machine learning upscaling is done in real time on varied content, (plus pc gaming apparently). Dynamic "real-time" delivered content. So... why not have the capabilities of both? I agree in general though for static movies and pre-recorded programming. . . why not just pre-bake them as upscaled? I'd say the same for streaming services but they use dynamic bitrates so real time AI upscaling could still have huge benefits there.. It's "real time" content like live shows, live streams, news, and gaming that AI upscaling in real time would benefit most, but my viewing habits digest a lot of those. Since streaming services bit rates are lower and even fluctuate dynamically, streams would also benefit. So it's really only per-recorded local libraries for collectors that have been locally upscaled or bought upscaled that wouldn't derive benefit.

Not sure I'd call ai "niche". It's the way all tech seems to be heading. I'd defo be worried if Samsung said "it'll become available via an update later" for specific models though. Like they did with HDR10+ on my 8 year old tv that never materialised.

Would errors happen, though? I bet the TV makes sure the 4 or 16 pixels that replace the 1 or 4 original ones keep the same overall light and color, so you never get very far from the original? I'm very curious for an "AI upscaling off" button, to compare and save energy. In the store, 8K demos look so amazing, it's hard to look away :-D

yeah hopefully. But Samsung TVs are trash..so...

There are TV's out that cant even turn off the soap opera motion smoothing. This is getting scary.

You realize that no consumer level TV is showing you the authentic image right? They all process the signal even with all settings off.

Authentic Image mode as in... A I mode? :)

Play the same content on 3 different TVs (without AI upscaling) and you'll get 3 slightly different images. So how do you define Authentic Image?

It just looks like they turned the sharpness slider up

Zoomed in. Always I see comparison that make it smaller on our screen than original. With the TV in out room, we'd be looking at details to appreciate quality.

Exactly. That term is being slapped on absolutley everything now for the simple reasons that companies believe that if they DON'T put that on everything they make consumers will think they are outdated and behind the times.

Like having data sizes of GB (Gigabytes) in power of 10 instead of power of 2 like GiB (Gibibytes). Pure marketing trash.

Can't wait for my AI-enchased yerba mate smoothies.

​@aagfnv I saw a toaster boasting AI on here or LinkedIn somewhere. It's getting ridiculous. I could understand if they stated AI was used in the design process. But everyone is skipping that, that's part of reaching singularity.

Machine learning is one of the subfields of the AI field in computer science.

The thing is, there are bandwidth limitations even using DSC (display stream compression) - so getting a high hz signal, for example a 240hz 4k 10bit 444(rgb) HDR signal to the tv first over the existing port and cable limitations using DSC, and THEN using hardware on the TV to upscale could be more efficient and get higher performing results than sending a pre-baked (4k upscaled to) 8k signal from the nvidia gpu at lower hz. Unless they started putting nvidia upscaling hardware on gaming monitors/tvs someday perhaps.

That would be great if we also had a setting for streaming services that was "Bluray quality". Unfortunately, a lot of content is highly compressed or standard definition, so needs some help to look decent.

lmao

Build your own TV.

Cognitive intelligence is another way of saying AI. Like Apple saying, Spatial Audio instead of Dolby Atoms to make you think it’s something else. Sony always thinks they are Apple of TV world NOT.

LG use to throw up words like AI way before Sony on everything. It never worked properly but they still use it for ages.

I would like to know too

Depends on which CPU they use for Smart TV functions, AMD, Intel, Qualcomm, Rockchip all have new CPUs with NPU cores.

As if you’re nothing more than a consumer.

The difference is that if written properly, a game can provide instructions for the consoles/computers to know what is going to happen in future frames, whereas a TV is only receiving the information after the fact. However, unlike a game, where the users responsiveness must be taken into account, limiting the time available for the frame generation to occur, if a TV were to delay its output by several frames (i.e. lag behind the input source) by creating a sort of frame buffer, a user wouldn't notice/care. Definitely interesting to say the least.

That's what I really want to know. I want to watch my Scarface DVD in 8k. Or maybe I could just buy the 4k version (if it exists) and see if it looks any better in 8k AI upscaling mode. Also, I'll need to afford the TV, which is something I'm working on.

I’ve downloaded 1080p AI upscaled rips of tv shows that only ever came out on DVD and it’s looks pretty good.

@@ditroia2777 Oh cool, that's promising. Was that real-time upscaled though, or post processed? If I can get an App for my 8K TV or PC that takes Miami Vice, Night Rider and Airwo;f and make it 8K, that'd be pretty neat. Let alone music videos, if it can give that depth perception we see on demo signal in TV stores. 8K Samsung QLED 900C is just gorgeous with that Demo. I want to see what it and 900D do with 720-1080P media...

@@SilverHolland it was a torrent.

C4 is the right choice for most people. G4 I'd super bright especially in specular highlights but probably not worth the price difference. C5 likely won't have MLA in any size unless the G5 makes a significant leap in technology which I doubt. Dolby Vision maybe won't matter to a lot of people but it's personally something I wouldn't but a TV without. Dolby Vision content can be a bit hit or miss but when it hits, it's stunning.

Exactly this I was wondering today. Some have shown it, but a zoomed out view always (triple face palm). Imagine an algo that turns 640P VGA racing games into 4K with lovely details taken from a dedicated database. Cranked up to 120 Hz, of course. Now what to do with the tinny car noises? :) In the time the 80s games needed to load, modern AI could scrape the internet for 1440P gameplay to develop bespoke real-time algo that overlap in front of actual 640P gameplay. No need to upscale, just pick new pixel to substitute, loads of them :)

Streaming services happened.

it added extra wrinkles to Ripley in some shots that makes her look like an elderly lady

@@pewburritoeverything but faces it seems to do a very good job of. When faces are static they look great, movement is still hit or miss. It's the best current example I think of the path it's going towards. I would say in another year or so, once it gets moving objects down, it'll be almost flawless. It's very uncanny. I think it will be great until people start using it as a replacement instead of an optional enhancement. It's like 48fps and the "soap opera" effect it creates. When it wasn't intended, it sticks out, but when used properly, it doesn't throw you off as much. We have all gotten used to 24fps and what recordings look like on a basic level, we're getting into enhancements that people outside of enthusiast group will have a hard time accepting easily. The more people use it properly will dictate the acceptance level

@@pewburrito give her a break, she was under a lot of stress

Not sure exactly the same , think it's also for empathising main subject to make it more 3D , good news 5 years updates , pretty sure will use same alpha 11 next year . So will get more AI. Think its need quite a bit of memory , and need to download model data . So for best would need to scan movie and download models

yeah but on low end trash Hardware SoCs with 5W power consumption. So, there is no GPU like RTX 4080 etc with the horsepower for real AI. And even real AI isn't the holy grail for movie productions - it looks not natural.

No. DLSS upscales by using previous frame data not generative ai

​@@od1sseas663lol you have no idea what you're talking about.

@@Tential1 he is correct tho. Generative AI is closer to a look up table to find a closest matching image.

@@Tential1 I hope you’re kidding. DLSS uses temporal data and motion vectors to upscale an image. Generative AI is a completely different technology. YOU have no idea what you’re talking about

NVIDIA and Intel use DLSS and XeSS for upscaling their games from a lower resolution to a higher resolution. It not only upscales it also makes the image more stable with a temporal pass in the upscaling. DLSS also has frame generation which should technically double your framerate but in practise doesn't because there is s slight overhead with using it. And Intel will soon be adding ExtraSS which will work a little bit different.

That's not happening ..the creator didnt watch a stream of video with 25% the color data of the captured scene.. We aren't even getting 4:2:2 from Blu-ray..whatever we are watching on Netflix is maybe 30% of the creator's Master.

G4 is best tv of the year

G3, C3 and C4 are all old news now. Top 3 this year are G4, A95L and S90D

@@djbpresents9584says guy who has definitely not seen every flagship tv this year

@@Bushwacked487 watched enough review putting g4 as best so far even over way more costly ones, the processing LG is using this year along with all the Xtra features 144hrtz and just suite of gaming features, detail and brightness in picture g4 just sits at the top so far but wait around for it

Spoiler alert G4 and A95L are the best We know this already

it's really bad - there are many many many A.I. Upscales from the pirates.

@@Datenschutz_Datenschutz If it's bad, I won't even bother.

​@@gjk2012it's not.. Why would you trust a person who's source is looking at ai upscale uploads from pirates.... Lol.... If you have an Nvidia gpu, or Nvidia shield, it will do AI upscaling and look amazing... Nvidia is the leader of ai.... Why would you think they're bad at the technology they literally were first to invent? Ai upscaling is something Nvidia has been doing since 2018. It's not new....

@@Tential1 nope. You really think A.I upscaling in Games is the same like in real world realistic movies. lol. Boy, computer games don't look realistic and DLSS sometimes even creates an oil paint like image. So he's definitely right and you have no clue, obviously.

Think of it like having a huge texture library for a video game. An extremely massive library and intelligently generative off of that. Your game had low detail textures, now it has high detail textures that are based off of the original ones. The original texture and it's mapped grid is still intact, but the holes/missing pixels of detail in the higher resolution screen's finer grid are filled intelligently. It's a fill operation, but one based on a huge AI learning library.

While I don't disagree at the theoretical/utopian level, Samsung does not produce the streaming content from Netflix etc., distribute sports, or publish movies, so I don't know what you expect them to do other than improve whatever the subpar content the TV receives. In an ideal world, all movies/shows would be available in 4K HDR on 4K Blu Rays, and sports would be shot in 4K, 120 fps. But in the real world, some people still buy DVDs, most people stream from highly compressed sources, and sports is only available in 720p/60 or 1080i/60. Your complaints should be to those that generate/produce the content in the first place.

I'll get on the phone with Federico Fellini and Walt Disney right away! Do you have quarters?

High-end phones already do and sadly I really don't see it getting close to DSLR. AI relies on there being some hints of the details that are missing still left in the image (subtle changes in the colours of the pixels), tiny sensors just don't pickup those details at all which is why skin usually looks flat lacking any texture and red hair usually looks brown, and any subtle changes in the tone of hair in general is lost. Smartphone photos only look good on those tiny screens where we can't see all the detail is missing. Also remember as we make tiny sensors more light sensitive to try to compensate for their size, we can also then do the same with bigger sensors. So inherently the gap between the two doesn't really close that much.

The thing is, there are bandwidth limitations even using DSC (display stream compression) - so getting a high hz signal, for example a 240hz 4k 10bit 444(rgb) HDR signal to the tv first over the existing port and cable limitations using DSC, and THEN using hardware on the TV to upscale could be more efficient and get higher performing results than sending a pre-baked (4k upscaled to) 8k signal from the nvidia gpu at lower hz. Unless they started putting nvidia upscaling hardware on gaming monitors/tvs someday perhaps. So at least for PC gaming at high hz, AI upscaling hardware on a gaming TV could be very useful.

Once streaming sites and cables don't fuck consumers with low bandwidth then yes

I don't see the value in it. We'd need massive screens and the bandwidth for it to be worth it.

As of today 8k is still a waste of money. Little content for it and you need a big screen to take advantage of the resolution (75" and above) compared to 4k.

Until we get affordable modular, video walls that are six to eight feet across, 8K really won't play much of a role at all in the consumer space. That could be five to seven years out still from here.

Samsung is all about bloat and bling, it's what they do.

To get accurate picture you need to turn off all settings, to turn off all processing, turn off motion settings, lower brightness, lower contrast. For example this video is mastered for 100 nits displays, which can be watched even on $100 displays. You don't need $3000 TV to watch HDTVtest, any display can do 100 nits. You can pay Vincent $500 to calibrate your S95D to 100 nits. Classy Tech calibrated G3 at 180 nits, so if you want 180 nits of glaring brightness, you can pay Classy Tech $500. This will give you an extra 80 nits over HDTVtest's calibration, for the same amount of money. Sadly HDTVtest is the most purist in the industry, he won't do calibration for 110 nits or higher. I think I've seen 101 nits at some point, few years ago, probably the TV wasn't capable to be capped/calibrated at exactly 100 nits.

Yes, Ive been commenting this for a while. Upscaling using the full power of a dedicated nvidia RTX graphics card has to be miles better than integrated SOCs the TVs use. Plus they have experience with DLSS already.

yes because everyone has a PC with an Nvidia card attached to their TVs so a channel focused on TVs should definitely do a video a bout that first /s

😂​@@yadspi

@@yadspi The RTX upscaling already exists and can be used with any brand of TV, whereas what is mentioned in this video is just a demo for high end 8K TVs most people will never buy. Also many people have a TV attached to their PC rig and can take advantage of it right now.

Keep your diapers on

Panasonic TVs sold in Europe never got assembled in Japan but in Pilsen (Europe) MZ2000 however is assembled by TCL. Panasonic closed the TV factory in Pilsen.

It has the MLA panel which is brighter and more impactful with the right kind of HDR content. It also makes Dolby Vision IQ usable, by finally allowing to turn off noise reduction settings in that mode. Otherwise it is probably rather similar to the top model from just 2 years earlier, e.g. both have near perfect SDR color accuracy out of the box without any calibration and superb shadow detail. I would generally recommend to wait a bit longer before upgrading the TV, because the differences from year to year usually are incremental.

@@redrum_2k The MLA panels have raised blacks. I rather have deep Blacks than 200 nits more. The black level on mz2000 look like my old pioneer kuro, that’s not good. The jz and hz2000 are superior imo. I will return my mz2000 and buy a good plasma instead till they have improved technology. Old resolution also looks very bad on the mz2k. It has the best PQ when gaming compared to LG and Sony. That’s it..

@@redrum_2k MLA panel is not an improvement for everyone. Raised blacks is worse than getting a few more nits in brightness. IMO the biggest deal of oled is the deep blacks. MLA panel black almost looks like my old Pioneer kuro plasma black.. yea the upgrades are very minimal but the price is not. I’ll return the tv and get myself a proper plasma in the meanwhile. Improved QD oled is what I will get next time

​@@superbn0va So MZ2000 looks like plasma which is not good, but then you rather buy plasma than MZ2000. Do you understand your own words?

And don't forget their laughable over-boosting of all their colors. 2024 now and they STILL can't let go of that. What the hell are they afraid of?

​@@michaelbeckerman7532Maybe because their general audience prefers it. No wonder they are still market leaders.

@@frankreynolds9930 no, they don't prefer it actually...they just don't know any better. But, that's what they end up with when they just blindly follow the crowd instead of actually doing their homework before making a purchase. Sadly, millions do exactly that.

Many 4k movies are upscaled by ai

@@User9681e And I hate those transfers.

@@User9681e most movie production is enhanced by software. TV scaling is also not "pure". Streaming is dynamic compression rates too which use tricks. compressed mkv's etc are also not pure transfers necessarily, just "visually lossless", like DSC. Then there is the fact that HDR compression and different HDR implementations vary a lot in what they deliver across different TV models and tv technologies. There isn't some ultimate pure signal displayed on some consumer display. It's getting the best you can get by them using hacks/tricks/work-arounds to mask or ameliorate the limitations of different display techs.

And which algorithm has your preference to « just scale up » your source ? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_gallery_of_image_scaling_algorithms

The thing is whether it's marketed as "AI" or not, anything that isn't already 4K is being upscaled by your TV using some kind of algorithm, otherwise it would be using what it called "nearest neighbor upscaling" which just stretches the pixels to be big enough to fill your screen without any kind of filter, making it look really blocky. "AI" is really just a marketing term for a combination of upscaling techniques and post-processing effects and maybe some content recognition via pattern analysis algorithm. It's maybe doing some extra things to try to guess what kind of content you're viewing but that's about it. The goal is just so that you don't have to manually adjust image enhancement parameters yourself and so it can do it automatically in real time. But yes if you want the most accurate image possible, you're going to stick with the basic built in upscaling and not want all the extra post processing that takes too many liberties with how it handles color and detail, a simple upscaling method ensures it's just filtering the pixels just enough so it's smooth and natural looking and not pixelated and blocky.

The thing is, there are bandwidth limitations even using DSC (display stream compression) - so getting a high hz signal, for example a 240hz 4k 10bit 444(rgb) HDR signal to the tv first over the existing port and cable limitations using DSC, and THEN using hardware on the TV to upscale could be more efficient and get higher performing results than sending a pre-baked (4k upscaled to) 8k signal from the nvidia gpu at lower hz. Unless they started putting nvidia upscaling hardware on gaming monitors/tvs someday perhaps. So for pc gaming on a gaming tv, putting AI upscaling hardware on the tv sounds like it could be very useful if done right.

@@elvnmagi9048 The main thing I was meaning to say in my first comment was that what Samsung had shown in the presentation wasn't anything new. We haven't seen anything from the LG G4 but it contains a newer SoC from the C-series and the newer chip is purportedly doing similar upscaling/reconstruction shenanigans to what's outlined here. But the point is AI image reconstruction in video is "old tech" in 2024. Digital Foundry did an older video showing the Nvidia Shield doing similar upscaling on regular video playback a few years back. You can argue that it has been the domain of Nvidia until recently, but it still isn't anything new and if anything Samsung's presentation, to me, is a tacit admission "we were behind, but we have caught up!".

@@lagrangemechanics Yep i use a 2019 shield regularly, but that's not the same as having a more modern AI chip in the display itself, due to the bandwidth limitations of ports and cables in regard to PC gaming on a gaming TV. More modern AI upscaling may be faster, cleaner, and provide more detail as the generations progress. Also, in regard to media, the shield does an ok job to 4k but it is a big leap to do 8k fast enough, clean enough, and with high enough detail gained. For PC gaming, the bandwidth savings by upscaling on the display side is important, especially with the way nvidia has allotted bandwidth on their ports up until now, (60hz 8k max, 7680x2160 at 120hz max, limits on multiple 240hz 4k screens) - though that could change to where a single port could get full hdmi 2.1 bandwidth with the 5000 series potentially, I hope so at least.

Yeah Topaz AI is not fast even with RTX 4090

@@nimblegoat and the results are... not exceptionally good

@@Datenschutz_Datenschutz yeah hit and miss, it's a art to use that program , so many options , models , what order you do things etc . I just upgrade DVDs to 720p so I don't ask too much of it, except fo old family videos . Really needs a front side GUI to ask a set of questions about content and what you want . Ie good encoders of movies eyeball a movie and they know what settings to adjust to get what they want, Eg a very clean cartoon at 1080o just give if a quality factor and speed and you will end up with a small high quality file. A badly released old 60Gb 4K , 2 hour movie - you need to get smart.

False we need better algorithms btw we would never get perfect upscaling

So 3 generations from now? As computation power doubles every generation.

Why it the S90D sharper?

​@@Jeroenneman s95Ds anti glare panel causes a pretty noticeable difference in contrast

And the s90d doesn't have the one connect box which is also a big win over the s95d