If anyone want to know sidestep becomes an option if you are either plus 4 or minus 4 frames. Try to step small moves in quick Play before going ranked with that. Also attacking and stepping instead of continuing flowchart is a good thing. Sidestep sheet helps a lot because every char Has their weak side.
Tekken has changed for the better, but it has been an over correction. Too many characters are hyper aggressive with their move sets in the current iteration, and a few other characters have been left behind to where they just don’t work like they should. Needless to say, more tuning needs to be done.
I don't think power crush heat engagers should be a thing, and if they are make them take away a little bit of heat. Not as much as heat burst, but like half that.
@@davidcunha01 yeah the forced guess on hs ob needs to go for the simple reason that a 1 button 50 dmg move shouldnt give you an advantage regardless of if you used it well or not. it should give up your turn ob or at least reset neutral
I think everyone understands that safe, heat engager power crush moves are intentionally pushed and take a big part of the characters power budget. They are still highs, so there is some limited counterplay, but they certainly make the characters that have them a lot better. I'd compare safe, heat engaging power crushes to 15f hopkick launchers; very strong tools that are a clearly there to make the character more competitive in comparison. Dragunov has neither of those tools, so he gets a better "basic toolset" as a tradeoff.
@PhiDX Yes, it's true that T8 is playing on the same principles as TT2. However, something that also absolutely needs to be a part of this conversation which you didn't mention is the fact that in TT2 movement was a universal tool which provided equal opportunity for the whole roster to fight for control BUT in T8, alot of characters do not have access to inherently strong control tools. That's why characters like Nina and Drag keep dominating at the highest level, consistently. Some characters with lackluster control tools struggle heavily in this game and simply don't work !
I'll never stop saying it but if Tekken 7 had actually good sidestepping it would've been the best game ever. It's like Bandai forgot they're the ones who designed the game bc they were like ugh why is everyone so defensive in t7, but then didn't adjust the game to fix the reason why lol. Now in 8 they made movement better but if ur opponent is in heat it's t7 all over again except the nukes hit WAY fucking harder 😭. Namco please 😭😭😭
A FG tale as old as time. Unpolished complexity of a different kind seen as watered down baby mechanics until perfected, looked at in retrospect, and out of the competitive spotlight so people can play it just for pure enjoyment.
Winning in this game feels like I just put guessed my opponent. Doesn’t really feel like I’m actually better than them lol more interactions doesn’t mean much when the interactions are forced 50/50 into massive damage. It’s literally just who guesses better and/or whose character has the best 50/50 pressure
Still the best player wins, or everyone would be GoD. Everyone is playing under the same conditions, it feels like guessing, some characters are spammy and cheese but at the end of the day it still requires skill imo.
My guy did you watch the video? You can avoid the mid low 50/50 by sidestepping. But they can counter your side stepping by using a homing, but you can counter their homing by hitting... it's RPS not just 50/50
@@MintyPolaroidand still it doesn't feel like skill is being involved. Just because it's a six sided die instead of a coin flip doesn't make it feel any less like gambling.
@@heartyman14 I agree theres always a degree of guessing to it. However, when there is more options the offender can use, with options that the defender can use which beats x amount of offenderd options. It becomes more about risk/reward or habits - as many interactions happen very quickly in tekken, its much harder to be truly random (in an effective way) and its more likely that habits will start to show, which u can abuse.
I still think heat needs some work. One significant difference is availability. In 7, you only got these moves when in rage, whereas in 8, you can access them at any time you really want. I also think that side-stepping is a lot riskier than backdashing. A lot of moves can still clip you or track to certain sides, so even now, many heat bursts more than in 7 have crazy tracking with the ability to turn a lot moves that wouldn't normally launch into full launches. You have characters with 10f counter hit launching heat dashes and more with heavily tracked heat bursts. So you have the issue where you don't to be aggressive in fear of eating a heat burst for a third of your health or getting launched by fast move.
You mentioned that heat bursts can track to certain sides. It's my understanding that ALL heat bursts lost their tracking since the defence patch some time ago. Did you mean heat dash?
8:35 "step was worse, so these situations were even worse cuz true forced 50/50" ok yes, but again like you said.. thats only in context with the rest of their moves. in T8 every character playes oppressive 50/50 nearly all the time and it gets old and frustrating quickly. where as in 7 it was a rare thing and then back to neutral reset
This exactly. I feel like he overlooked this to maximize cope. At around 27:00 he mentions that the nukes aren’t as big of an issue because of movement being “improved”.
So, what I got from this, is that they made the decision to nerf movement in the transition from Tag 2 to Tekken 7. And instead of reversing that change because everything became a block & df1 contest, Bamco views that decision as the right one - considering T7's overall success - and doubled down on it by having T8 being a momentum contest. The devs need to understand that people like movement. The defensive patch was a step in the right direction, but I think most players just prefer to have the kind of movement to where you can reliably move if you have a small advantage/disadvantage on hit, rather than have everything lock you down & track you. Because even with that patch, there are still characters that do exactly that & have strings that fully track three inputs in, and it removes the "3D" aspect of Tekken.
@@PhiDXwould be spot on if the net code was significantly better. I play from Georgia (Europe), and I usually get matched with players from Russia / middle east and sometimes SEA. Since release, lowest ping I encountered was 103 with few frames of rollback and delay, so not ideal to say the least. I stumble into situations where a perfect sidestep is completely stumped by rollback frames and lag and combined with buggy wall interactions (Claudio's b4,3,2 sometimes teleports them away or whiffs completely at the wall) I end up getting "robbed" out of wins almost every match. For reference, playing soul calibur 2 on an emulator with the same players (I have a few friends from the UK and US east coast) is smoother and more stable (110ms in t8 compared to 80ms with my friend form the UK) and even in t7 it's more stable.
if the developers want us to use movement as a tool, why is there such a big disparity between the different character's sidesteps? why make it so difficult for certain characters to even use sidesteps as a defensive tool?
As someone who has gotten DISGUSTING with low parries in T8, I'm sad I was really bad at them back in T7. Full launch low parries are a kind of sickness I wouldn't mind huffing upon.
I think you're right now. I have fun playing and watching the game so I'm happy with it. It's fine to dislike it too but i think some people are just salty haters because fighting games are hard and it's easier to say it's a bad game than it is to adapt and improve
So ive been playing tekken since tekken 3 and for years i spent hours and hours trying master every hard mechanic of the game and playing it to its full potential, i fully mastered backdashing wavedashing , jsfr electrics perfect electrics, playing while moving not mashing like an idiot and i found that is wt made tekken the greatest fighting game ever until they brought this dumb shit trash shadow of tekken game tekken 8, does that make me a salty hater? Tekken 8 is trash and this guy phidx unfortunately is a shill and i can guarantee u he is not speaking the truth, he has much to lose if he talks shit about this trash game and if he is telling the truth about really enjoying the game u wouldve seen him play competitive as he did b4 in 7 and try every big tournament possible to him but he knows for sure that this game is not for competing.
@@ICEMAN-Z8it doesn't have to be hard to be enjoyable, Tekken 8 is reaching a wider audience now. So you can either adapt or continue playing previous Tekkens.
@@snowfield4066games must change or die. Look at COD. Same shit for over a decade and the only reason they’re still in business is because NPCs keep buying it.
T8 is my first fighting game and therefore my first Tekken and I was really disappointed to here how unhappy people were with the game. Looking at the gameplay from T7, I don't think I personally would have enjoyed it that much. I think the bones of T8 are pretty good and once the outliers and heat gets tuned down a bit, I think the core of the gameplay will stand up and I hope people's opinions change over time.
It will eventually. The community has to have a tantrum first, the ones that were never really fans to begin with weeded out..Happens with every tekken game. Trust me this is nothing new.
@@jeanschyso hmm. Took a few years for people to stop crying about t7 and that's after the game was a total dumpster fire its first 2 to 3, and few head a** patches down the line plus t8 existing... so.....
took a small hiatus from tekken 8 due to personal reasons, but i’m back now and ima catch up on your vids. always appreciate the in depth analysis videos, as i continue to learn more and more about the game :D
Remember how the early character trailers DIDN'T show a single sidestep, to the point where some people thought they would even remove some side movement? Crazy times. How could we have known side steps would be improved when preview footage only conveyed offense and combos because it looks cooler?
I never played tekken before 8. And this is now my favorite fighting game(until 2xko comes out) it constantly fun learning people's set up. Movement. And finding combos with weird interactions based on the 3d format
Banger video You know some days I think of tweeting at Harada that a lot of people in the community are happy about how Tekken 8 turned out since all he receives is negativity about the game. (And the occasional fan art) But I feel like Nakatsu's team has made a fighting game that forces you to actually fight your opponent instead of running away from them and I like that.
Man you just opened my eyes. Ss is good I use it quite often but for reads on heat no. That’s good, like ok how many rounds am I up, how are they playing, are they goin to mash heat etc Boom u ss on the read and u can get a launcher. Almost like the TT2 gameplay. When knee was ss into jet upper against Ulsan that opened my eyes to
Great video, too bad most the comments are going to be about the only difference in your haircut being a 2" length. But for real, the new movement plus a more interaction heavy defence is what makes T8 so addictive to me, looks shallow at first but the consistency at the top level shows that it's not endless 50/50s, the game rewards you for understanding and interacting.
I recently won a tekken tournament at my school thanks to your videos, so I just wanted to thank you for all of your contributions to the tekken community!!!
I’m a new gen player but I liked the more clean gameplay without worrying about heat resource but I otherwise love the variety of combos in tekken 8, I think if these were changed to something that isn’t resource like but just a part of their kit again in tekken 9/sequel. Attacking feels good in tekken 8 but defending feels almost anxiety inducing because you need to assert yourself with offence, I think that some sort of mid way ground that could allow for heat burst extended combos but not have it tied to a heat bar at all. Rage art has stayed clean and easy to read in the middle of a match but heat is a bar that can go up or down which doesn’t seem as intuitive to me. But I really can’t say much, I have 600 hours in tekken 8 and 8 hours in tekken 7.
@3:30 I think one version of counterplay on defense is that highs are duckable no matter what. I'm new to competitive Tekken, but i am used to plus frames being frame traps no matter what the following move is. It seems like you cant jail in T8 if you use highs as followups to plus moves. Was it always like that in Tekken? Tekken experts correct me if im wrong.
It depends, certain strings can jail in a way where you're forced to take a high. If you're talking about doing a high that's a seperate move after the first hit then in that case you'll always have a chance to duck the high.
The problem with Tekken 8 is, honest good Tekken skill is secondary and Character shenanigans/BS/Cheap tactics is a priority. It is always about the cheap moves that you can abuse without any consequences instead of relying on skills. I still do not understand why you will get punished for being defensive. Defense is one of the basic fundamentals of Tekken, it is the reason why you have to calculate each attacks and risk vs rewards during the match. This is where you will actually see SKILLS. In Tekken 8, you can almost forget about thinking and just go on autopilot and you can win EZ. Yes, you still need skill but like I said, Skill is secondary here, no matter how good you are, if you opponent has the most cheap moves without consequences, then you are always at a 30-70 situation. This all started with Akuma from Tekken 7 and then from there, all the cheap BS got carried over to Tekken 8. Good honest Tekken Skills died with Tekken Tag 2.
I would even love Tekken 8 more if they incorporate combo routes from bound, tailspin, and tornadoes, but I don't know how it will look in the actual game, but I have a feeling it is really good. This is my vision for Tekken 9, hope it will come true. 🦂🦅🕷️🤓❤️
Personally I think that 'aggressive' is not quite the most accurate word to describe the new systems. it's not aggressive in the way most people think where you just mash buttons and constantly attack with little thought. I think 'interactive' would've been a more accurate term even if it would not sound good marketing wise. Defensive play is still heavily rewarded in T8, it's just that defensive play isn't pressing nothing until the opponent does something stupid. Feels much more 'dynamic' than T7 I think.
One really cool thing about Tekken 8's Heat System is that you are super encouraged to be aggressive while you have Heat; If you get combo'ed while you have Heat, you can recover all of that damage taken. Even getting launched while having heat is not THAT bad, so you are encouraged to just go ham while you have it. Chip on every attack and making all combo damage recoverable just screams "Go!".
The more I think about it, the easier it is to see heat burst the same as the rock power scissors mechanic they added to Soul Calibur 6. Aside from the game slowing down when you use it, I wouldn’t doubt it if the frames were similar. It was what I disliked the most about the game but I’m pretty sure it can be sidestepped.
First - you earn the heat system, the bar must fill with interaction like the super on SF6, rather than you have it in all rounds. Second - RA must be the last resort, so, you only have access to it on your LAST round on RAGE. thats it. this two things fix 99% of the game.
While it is true that T8 encourages interaction, the problem is not that but that so many characters have the ability to sustain pressure for many seconds without or minimal counter play options. Neutral is very weakened, and small tekken is far less present.
Maybe my opinion isn't dominant, by i will disagree. Well, you can sidestep the 50/50 and play a sort of mindgames, where you trying to read the opponent's pattern, but there's a two problems. The first problem is the sidestepping speed. There's no really "sidestep buff". No, ofc, i mean it's there, but it's not that strong as you trying to present. In TTT2 your sidestep can beat a lot more options, even in -6 you can sidestep 10f jab. And tracking in T8 is still very strong in a lot of moves, so you really feel like in gambling situation. The second problem is lacking of neutral. Because of backdash nerf you can't avoid close situations when you reading the opponent offence or movement. In T7 you have something like a freedom of choice. You can not to play this situations or you can go back to the neutral. In T8 even in neutral you feel like in close combat, because it's too hard to prevent opponent's attacks, which also can have insane reach. So for me T8 it's like forced close-range Tekken with almost T7 tracking. Situation becomes even worse with stance pressure and strong 50/50 tools, which is new for a lot of characters. I hope my english skill issue is not a thing and you understand me lol
to anyone who says he have the same haircut clearly didn't see the bangs is shorter by a half an inch and now the side hair not covering his ears anymore -, otherwise it's identical.- smh
Bro I’ve been playing like this since it came out and haven’t been able to travel to show anyone. I sidestep so many things that shouldn’t be sidestepped ask anyone who’s played me. Sidestepping and movement is better in this game than it was in 7
If they felt like the person who is attacking and has built up an advantage to feel GOOD about attacking after building up an advantage, maybe removal of get-out-of-jail moves like power crushes and ESPECIALLY rage arts could help that? Fuck no, we keep a super move that is unlocked by your ass being beaten. Even 2d fighters know that meter is built much more (or at all, in case of Guilty Gear) by attacking and not by having your hp depleted. THIS I think is the biggest flaw in modern tekken's philosophy.
Would you ever do a comparison between sf6 drive system and tekken 8 heat system? I’m currently trying out sf6 to see if the grass is greener on the other side.
@@blaximum what do you mean? Electrics are already existent since T3 if I'm not mistaken. Guard breaks was.introduced in T7 and that's one of the reason why Fahk is so strong. Also, you can EWGF me anytime and I'll welcome it since it does nothing when you block it. Guard break on the other hand can lead to devastating combos on walls and only accessible to select few
I honestly think you were right about T8 at first but the developers moved away from this philosophy in the first 6 months of patching, there are still few traces of low interaction gameplay but the game is in a much healthier spot right now. we are nearing the end of the first season and i'am sure they are going to drop massive patches to change things around, which is exciting but kinda scary at the same time. Love the content peace!
Glad to see you support the Tekken competitive scene and its community, despite the consistent negativity of others for calling you a 'corporate shill' for even enjoying T8. Keep doing what you do and never let others get you down! ✌😁
Tekken 8 is leagues better than Tekken 7. What’s sad is the twitter community is the worst thing about Tekken. Playing the game makes most want to play more of the game. Reading twitter just makes many people depressed and down on the game. I really don’t k ow how you fix when a community leans into toxicity more than it should. ESPECIALLY becuase no game exist in a vacuum, that is compare the price, value, depth, almost every metric Tekken is the best or in the running anmong the best compared to all the AAA fighting games. Except its twitter community. Really is a shame. Don’t get me wrong feedback is important, but it should be constructive criticism and not what we get, lower review scores on steam for a $5 dollar stage nonesense. Cutting off your nose to spite your face. SMH
If i'm being honest, The more PhiDX gives breakdown in this game, the more i realize the issue in Tekken 8 isnt by game design. It's the broken stuff that follows with the game design. 1. Heat Smash itself kinda gives the "Forced mixup" that PhiDX gives breakdown to. On hit you get big damage, but on block you have to guess (Notoriously King's Heat Smash OB, Feng's, and Jin's heat smash 2 on the wall). While SOME is SSable now, some still has the tracking, which is just like the situation of Claudio's RD. I think if they nerf this to be more risky OR neutral like most rage drives in t7 are designed, this heat smash concept would be fine. 2. Top tier characters in general. Like PhiDX explained, Dragunov, Alisa has a lot of moves that does not play around this plan of "Movement as pressure" concept. Dragunov QCF4 by itself has tracking and gives the "Forced mixup" between WS3 or FC DF14 (FC DF14 tracks, while WS3 does not. So the mixup itself is the mixup between sidestepping or not). Alisa also has a tracking armor that gives chainsaw mix (With the addition of Chainsaw d2 tracking low, this makes the sidestepping DES stance even more egregious) In general, i felt like if they nerfed these aspects, I felt like the game would be so much better right now. I hope they act on these broken aspects fast.
I came from DBFZ and Guilty Gear: Strive. Tekken 8 feels far more defensive, and rewards movement far more than either of those two games. There are competitive fighting games, like Guilty Gear: Strive for example, that require a lot of skill / knowledge and THAT ALSO lean into the 50/50, Casino style gameplay. From my perspective, I can understand why Tekken players are vocal about the aggressive style (because they want to preserve as much of old tekken as they can), but I also have to laugh - because I've been to Vegas, and Tekken isn't it.
One and dones all night to night in rank. Then you come across rage pluggers. With that being said we also have a extremely aggressive game with heat mechanics. Im most worried about burnt out among players in this game.
Even with the game being mashy as hell now, i prefer that over counterhit city in tk7. Watching two players turtle so much is just not fun. So i can kind of agree with Namco. It just needs some balance adjustments to some characters. Tk8 could be great in the future
I’m fine with tekken 8 adding the heat system, but they need to tune down the strength of characters in heat to promote more play styles than rush down 50/50. I’m currently trying out street fighter 6 and it seems it has a similar system to heat with drive rush, but it’s a better managed system than the Tekken one. I’m 1 week into SF6 at silver rank and you actually need some level neutral game before you can be rewarded to use your drive system. In sf6 you get burned out if you use drive too much, the amount of of drive that you have seems meaningful, and even in defense against drive you have option selects that Tekken just says screw it and give you +20 oB heat smashes. I remember in the beginning ranks of Tekken 8 as a new player, blowing all your heat at startup going on the aggressive was a legit strategy that should never be as effective as it should. TLDR: Tekken 8 doesn’t punish improper use of heat enough even though sf6 has a similar system that has way better balance to their version of heat.
Tekken 8 is still good game but they turned this game until I guessing game. 50/50s and tracking need to be adjusted. Axe kick should not track. A plus, tracking mid that puts you in crouch, shouldn’t also track.
As "Fighting game" philosophy Tekken 8 is the best tekken to date, people are crying just blindly doing so because first impressions of Pros and big creators. Sure T8 add too many things to quickly to the game and change alot of "Tekken" philosophy and fundamentals rules so much that it upset people especially old players. Heat, Chip damage, power up window etc it's almost a diffferent game but if you view it as "Fighting game" the rules set that encourage player to "fight" and looking for/ create opportunity to hit button and make plays is the correct way to go. Heck, I even want some kind of rule that apply on last 10 seconds. to both player that make the blocking even worse or more reward for actually hitting opponent. Point is to make it's harder to Turtling with health lead and win by timeout. the game would be crazy.
Nice way do discard the opinions of others by calling them followers... Anyways, i know so many players who shared these complaints even on beta that it's not even trend hopping. to a point it has to be you not wanting to see the truth. Tekken had it's own identity and following because it wasn't trying to be like other fighters. i dont know how you can't see that but its pretty easy to see. And if anything, t7 was more like boxing or real fighting, it encouraged defense and there were literally so many ways to play the same character. you cannot say the same about tekken 8. it's literally forced playstyles and archetypes to a point that i can't even confidently say player expression is even a thing in the game.
@@KyeCreates LOL, the beta is literally created to receive complaints and it's good things. The balancing complaints of Top tier characters also true. and the Identity of 3D fighting game still clear as day and trying to be better fighting game does not mean it's become less distinct. and As a former university Thaiboxer, NO Tekken is a game nothing similar to real fighting and brainless turtling is not fun or complex or skill expressive at all. T8 is more diverse in play style not many but still not only singular correct way to play like T7. T8 is way for complex and higher skill ceiling especially in high level. unless you are casuals (below Tekken kings)
