I've Finished Endwalker... 

My take on the Zenos encounter was quite different. The “That I can’t deny” line isn’t a confirmation that we are exactly the same. Rather it’s an acknowledgement that even as polar opposites there is at least some common ground. What’s more, it’s simply true. If you play this game and do anything other than the story or story focused side quests, then there is a chance you are doing things “for their own sake.” And it’s true, we push ourselves to do savage and extreme trials even when there is no narrative gain in doing so. We push ourselves to achieve titles, mounts, glamour. We enjoy the thrill of the game, and we likely enjoy the thrill of the fight. It doesn’t make us a blood thirsty monster like Zenos, but we share that common drive. Not to mention I could never let go of how badly I wanted to beat him after he beat me in Stormblood. Even in the end we only won with a party of allies, so I always felt unfulfilled. To pretend there wasn’t a part of me that craved a rematch too simply wouldn’t be true. Obviously everyone reads that final moment differently, but I feel it’s far more complex than some give it credit for.

I feel like Zenos was actually shook by what Alisaie said in Garlemald, and for the first time, actually sat and thought about that. At the end, this was his first time actually trying to think about and understand someone else, resulting in his attempt at trying to meet us halfway. And he's not completely wrong in what he said, so I acknowledged that for him.

I don't really agree with your take that Zeno's got his duel "on his terms", he did in fact compromise by a truly significant degree (relatively speaking, to him). He spent so much of the story basically trying to force his way into our sights, trying to become the biggest threat to draw our full attention. But at every turn realizing he just wasn't the big threat. His line after the first trial, I think, was the start of his learning a bit of humility. When he puts his scythe away and says that there are other threats (his competition for our attention) and that already we were turning towards them and away from him. And then again when the final days come to Garlemald, when he shows up and Julus makes his outburst at what Zenos has done to their nation and the way he admits that it was all just a wasted effort. He then actually addresses Julus' response, asking if it would have mattered if he'd had a good reason. At face value, this sounds like Zenos simply dismissing Julus' questions as insignificant, he is dismissing them, but what I find interesting is that he even bothered addressing them at all. Why ask if a good reason would have mattered? He knows the answer, and Julus is so far below Zenos' notice, yet he actually gave it at least a moment's thought. This scene as a whole, I think, is Zenos experiencing regret. He went to such lengths to become our target, and failed. I think he's starting to question his own methods, why he failed, what he could have/should have done differently. When he acknowledges Julus' question, I think it's because it echoes his own questions. And then comes Alisae's line. Telling him how wrong his perspective is and how with his current demeanor he'll never achieve what he wants, including never getting his rematch with us. And again, she and her argument aught to be so far below his notice, and yet her words leave a deep impact on him. (on a personal note, both at this part, as well as on the moon earlier, I kept thinking we aught to just offer to give him his rematch in exchange for him helping to save the world first, I was already getting some strong anime rival turned friend vibes going on). And then in the end, he goes to Sharlayn, and by all accounts makes no threats, harms nobody, and does indeed agree to come to our aid in exchange for his rematch. This is just so not the same Zenos we've seen before. He's taken Alisae's words to heart, and is actually willing to do something for others in order to get what he wants. Willing to 'fight' alongside us against the foe who has 'stolen' us from him. And lastly, when he does issue his challenge at the end, he does say that we are free to refuse him and he won't pursue it further (while that's not an option that the devs gave us, my point is simply that Zenos gave us that option). That's just a HUGE point of development for him. Since we defeated him back in 4.0 he's made his entire purpose of existence to get this rematch, and now, with no other threats to draw our attention away from him, he's actually content to just let it go if we so choose? As I think on this more and more, I realize that the only word I can think of to describe him at this point, as strange as it may seem, is humbled. He still wants this rematch more than anything, but he no longer considers himself entitled to it. No more demands, no more threats, just an earnest request to the only person he's ever considered to be his friend. So in the end, yes he gets what he wants, but I think the point is that he didn't get it on his terms, it was on Krile's terms, as well as our own. Sure, I could understand disappointment that we couldn't take the option that Zenos offers us. But overall, I think it's important to realize just how much Zenos' personality actually changes from pre-moon to the end. It may not seem like much, but when you consider just how flat, and just how damaged he was, it's quite the transformation. Not meant to really be an argument, or to change your mind. Just offering my perspective regarding Zenos' confrontation.

So this definitely made me think on why the final bit with Zenos hit so perfectly with me. Part of it definitely stems from being a longtime player who's done pretty much everything as it released- and while yes, my character is the Warrior of Light, the nigh-unstoppable force of good throughout the story, they have also had numerous other adventures in the downtime that comes between expansions and patches, often seeking to overcome a challenge or just in pursuit of strength. That, combined with the feeling that the WoL and Zenos are two sides of the same coin made "Such pleasures, you seek for their own sake, and no other reason. Is this not so... Adventurer?" hit in such a way that I felt that option 1, "That, I can't deny," was the only option. Additionally I felt, in part, that this wasn't just my fight. In the end, despite being an evil, murderous bastard, Zenos did come through in the end, and was partially responsible for helping us save the universe. I thought back on Alisaie's words earlier in the MSQ, "Yet if you only pursue your hedonistic pleasures, and pay no heed to the plight of others, then no one will give you the time of day. You will never get what you want - not even the battle you pine for so dearly," and saw that Zenos had gown, at least a small bit, since then. He had constantly been coming for a fight, yet he was brushed aside because of his insignificance as a threat next to the world burning all around us. In the end, the only way he would get his fight was by making sure there was no other threat that consumed our attention- which ultimately drove him to travel across the universe to us, not to duel, but to stand by our side. In the end, it earned him what he wanted- the world had been saved, and, in my eyes, he had finally earned his final duel. Zenos wasn't our final boss this expansion, we were his.

Zenos in EW a narrative device, and metaphor for the core, oldschool MMORPG gameplay. He is the big giant bossfight, the big combat event EVERY SINGLE mmo is aimed towards. If you think about what he did as an "enemy" in the expansion, you realize that it's actually...NOTHING. He was just standing around, trying to taunt you into ignoring the story to do the old-school MMO combat with him. And that scene, on the moon, when you let him walk away from you, is the breaking point. The Final Days are here. You no longer care about leveling, grinding, the bossfight. You want to save the world, save your friends. Zenos, the bossfight, is not important. You let him walk away and focus on solving the mystery instead. And Zenos, the bossfight, realizes that this is not the way for him. He needs to actively include himself on YOUR journey, he has to adapt to YOUR story. This is why he comes to the edge of the goddamn universe. To help you FINISH THE STORY. He literally says "How the fuck have you not finished yet?" And by the end of it all, when you silence the Song of Oblivion, he's there. He is waiting. You face each other on a completely empty plane. No star to save, no friends to save, noone else is around. He states "This is why you created your character to begin with, right? To fight the big bad boss at the end" And you cannot escape the gameplay this time. You can be honest and agree with him, or reject it, but the bossfight happens. Because this is a game in the end. You are here to fight. And after his defeat, he asks your character, the player: "Was your journey worth it? Was the story you've gone through worth it? Why didn't you just care about the fights? Isn't that just why you started the game? Did you find something meaningful since the start?" I honestly find his writing, and the way they included in the story absolutely brilliant. It's a massive 4th wall break that directly addresses the player, and makes you think how playing FF14 has actually changed your "MMO playing" mindset. Zenos is the mirror of you who skipped the story. edit PS: And with the world finally at peace, you ultimately prove him right. You are an adventurer again, looking for new places to test your might. You already look for the next challange. But at the same time you still defy him, because the story changed you. Your friends have changed you. You are in this game for more than just the gameplay. You are here, because you care about the world. And that is why Zenos, the representation of PURE gameplay, is left behind, at the edge of the universe.

I think it's a bit of a surface-level take on what Alisaie said to Zenos to just say she was putting him down. She told him that he won't get the rematch he seeks if all he ever thinks about is himself. From what we've seen in-game this is the first time anyone has ever taken into consideration that which he actually cares about. After that scene he follows her advice and tries to figure out what it is that you desire and comes to believe that you might be combatsexual the same way as him. He's not entirely correct...but he is a little bit. He flies out to the edge of the universe to help you deal with your burdens so that he can make you an offer that he legitimately thinks you will enjoy. If an absolute scumbag like him can start to care about (kind of) and compromise for (kind of) the people around him, it seems really childish for the WoL to refuse to consider his perspective. Zenos' death scene was very interesting to me too because of how much of a tragic figure he really is. We don't know what happened to him to make him so numb to everything but even fighting us didn't seem to bring him fulfillment as he died. A lonely soul that was never understood yet put in an honest effort to try to understand us and make a connection. A lot like Meteion when we met her getting very excited to meet someone she thought was the same as her.

They honestly handled Zenos exactly how I was hoping they would. That he'd put on a big show in an attempt to set himself up as our greatest nemesis, only to be upstaged by Fandaniel's treachery and forced to take a backseat to the real threat. He ultimately never swayed from his course, but at least took time to think and try to understand what actually makes us actually tick, and at the end of everything, I couldn't disagree with what he said, even from a non-meta perspective. While we never actually hear his answer to the question of whether or not we found fulfillment, there's a bit of optional dialogue from Urianger where he suggests it might've been someone's will that returned the transporter device to us, and I like to think it was his desire that we lived to make sure that we found the fulfillment that he ultimately failed to grasp.

You forgot the most important thing Nietzsche's philosophy was that he thought nihilism was overrated. In other words: he argued that if nothing mattered, then what is the consequence of trying different things if no true consequence exists. What this means is that if you were contemplated suicide, but refused to do crazy stuff like: skydiving, becoming a secret agent, a hobo, or some kind of crazy extreme, then wouldn't you be admitting that you valued life in some way? The entire point of Nietzsche's philosophy is to essentially dab on those who believe that nothing matters but are unwilling to do anything, because if nothing truly mattered, then neither would consequence, so they would do anything and everything. Also I really liked the Zeno part, my favorite ending to a video game story so far.

Finally, Matt can talk spoilers with you. I'm happy he survived.

When Zenos spoke that last bit of dialogue before our fight, it immediately took me back to the very start of ARR, where my character was riding that carriage. A nobody at the time, but a nobody who craved to explore the world - who craved adventure. The thirst that Zenos spoke of comes with life itself, but our little group of misfits give us purpose. Yet, one cannot exist without the other. You cannot have purpose if you are dead because you were weak at a crucial moment... but also, strength without purpose is tasteless (an example perfectly shown in Zenos). The WoL is a marriage of those two concepts: the purpose, coming from the ppl around you, and the fundamental feelings that come from life itself: curiosity, exploration, evolution, desire go get stronger for the sake of competition. I did not pick option 1 because I was like Zenos, but because I realized that such a side is part of me, perfectly balanced (and needed) to sustain the purpose of protecting the ones around me. In a way, it is acceptance of the Jungian Shadow. Something that is intrinsically part of me for being alive, so instead of trying to suppress it, I would instead acknowledge it and use it as a tool for that which gives me purpose.

I know this is like three months old but I just feel like a few Zenos points need to be made to better understand that ending: 1. We literally would have failed had Zenos not shown up. There was no other way to reach the Endsigner save riding on his back. 2. This wasn't on his terms. He had to give up everything and subject himself to helping his long time enemies to get one single fight. And he had to compromise and accept that other things were more important with him. He also had to save the entire world he so hated just to fight you. In a way, it was hte most extreme act of love, as far as he understands it. 3. Zenos was never a flat character -- his mother died in childbirth, his father showed him no love and only trained him to be a weapon. He wasn't allowed friends or anything beyond combat training. His emotions were beaten, tortured, trained, experimented on, and isolated out of him. I"m not saying he was a good guy - he was a horrid person - but he also never stood a chance. This first time he ever felt understood, seen, noticed, valuable was in his fight with you.His entire life was spent as a tool for his father. 4. Zenos WANTED to die at the Royal Menagerie. He was actually quite upset when he body hopped and he did not do it on purpose. He thought his suffering was finally over only to have it brought back. 5. Zenos is meant to be a commentary on humanity in general when he talks to Jullus. He is there to make us question if the end justifies the means. He's also there to make us question our biases. Does a good reason truly change the essence of what someone does? And to the same end, does a bad reason negate the good they do? Zenos saved the universe because he wanted to fight us - but he still saved the universe. 6. The WoL would not have survived without Zenos, full stop. THey wouldn't have been able to defeat Endsigner in the first place, and it was Zenos' dying wish that we live. He summoned the teleporter, and summoned it in such a way that it did not bring him. Whilte not "technically" confirmed, Urianger's comments make it clear thats what happened - the writers wouldn't have put it in if it wasn't the case. 7. Now that we're at 61, I find it interesting to keep in mind that Zenos was the first person to address us as an adventurer and not a hero, and now the whole plot is around that. He's also the only person other than Venat to ask if it was worth it. All of that to say - while it's perfectly valid to not like Zenos or wanted more options, I don't think it's entirely fair to assume this was a mistake on the writers' part or bad immersion. I also think an option where you could talk him into killing himself or kill him quickly would undermine the point made earlier about how you would not have succeeded without him. Anyways, sorry for the late and long rant - I just think there are some important points that make the Zenos bit more interesting that should be noticed.

The thing that got me today was that Zenos last words to you, his questions, are the same as Venat's. She asks you in Elpis if you think your life was worth it, and you don't get a chance to answer. And it repeats with Zenos.

Interesting I didn't like Zenos UNTIL the final interaction with him. It made him click for me. For a character who was characterized by an inability to connect with others, it was this final conversation that made me understand him and I felt complete his story. It's why I chose option 1. Acceptance at long last. I don't view enjoying a challenge to be exclusive to doing the right thing. That is why Zenos helps you at all. Instead of forcing you into your duty he instead helps clear your schedule. Now with no duty remaining why not simply enjoy the moment? For him it is everything but for me it was a small pleasure. One of the simple things. Consider that in many of the victory cutscenes after duty completion lately your character does not respond with joy upon victory. That is until the post-MSQ dungeons. There is a measure of enjoyment in the victory of a contest or challenge that was there from the beginning but performing your duty is clearly shown to weigh heavy and now relieved of that duty it is time to take stock. To just have a good old fashion throw down. Let's see how far Zenos' conviction takes him. To deny Zenos seemed to me to go against many things the game even tries to tell you. It isn't about agreeing with your enemy but instead understanding him. What drove him? etc. I thought it worked very well in this regard. Then his final words. It made me feel like in that realm of dynamis, My character's final thought before blacking out would've been "I want to see my friends again". Also that is the point I think people miss about Nihilism. It isn't that nothing matters but rather anything can matter BECAUSE there is no universal imperative.

After experiencing such a well crafted story in a game full of fun, and engaging content, that lacks all the time gating, grinding, and FOMO. There’s no way I could ever go back to WoW.

Unfortunately a talk off with Zenos would be even more anticlimactic and immersion breaking since it would be a 180 of his character, which I think would be really jarring. That kinda already happened too in the Royal Menagerie at the end of 4.0 and it ended with Zenos basically saying "Yeah, no we're fighting anyways". Repeating that at the End of everything seems just... dull. It's very Sasuke vs Naruto, with having beaten the root of the problem, they finally get to throw down with nothing else in mind. You can't convince me that Naruto talking Sasuke out of fighting or even having a lengthy discussion would be good storytelling.

I wanted to add something to this discussion. I think Zenos was actually completely and utterly truthful when speaking to you at the end, I think your character COULD leave, without any trouble, and without Zenos doing anything to bother you again, but choose not too, and I think all 3 of the options represent why Option 1: You want to fight, now that your duty is done you will indulge yourself, enjoying yourself to the full now that you don't have anything burdening you. Option 2: Zenos is a threat, and needs to be handled, and this is the perfect place to handle it, without anyone around to get hurt. You believe that Zenos will continue to hurt people, for whatever reason. Option 3: Hate, Zenos tried to hurt the people you loved and cared about, now you can get your vengeance. I think these 3 handle any response that a hero wants

The Zenos fight was perfectly in line w/ my internal understanding of the WoL characterization. I don't agree w/ the idea that the warrior of light just wants to experience and explore all that life has to offer. The entire theme about finding the joys in life really pushes the WoL towards taking the moment for exhileration and enjoyment when it presents itself. The warrior of light might be a hero, but internally I don't think they want to be. I think they just want to be like Azem or Venat, a traveler out to experience life. I think only doing the msq skews your understanding of the WoL. There's so much side content, where the only reason you give for why you risk your life so much, is because it's an adventure or a risk. Like Azem throwing themselves into an active volcano, the WoL delving into any number of hyper dangerous optional dungeons or raids, the WoL has wanderlust. And it's actually that wanderlust and penchant for risk and action that makes the WoL so much more familiar with the joys in life than anyone else.

I needed the Zenos bit. I was so emotionally drained by that point, that I need the ridiculousness of that Zenos moment to lift me up. It worked for me as a bit of a nonsense pallet cleansing, that I needed. I get it isn't for everyone, but for me it was the little pick me up that I needed. Plus, I read that entire point as talking directly to the player. That whole scene was eerily reminiscent of the Yoshi-P speech we get during The Rising every year, so I felt it was Zenos talking to me as a player, not to my character. Which is why I guess it didn't feel strange to me. It was a 4th wall break, and those are always kind of risky. Personally, they should have just had a choice that let you talk it out instead of the battle. It's not like the result of the battle actually means anything (at least it doesn't yet). But, I'm not convinced he's gone. Maybe that is Copium, but I won't be surprised if he pops up again in the future, even if it is only a cameo.

For me the 'I can't deny' fit me perfectly because the way that zenos worded it, He asked me .. me not as the WOL or scion or anything .. he asked, 'At that moment what do I feel as an ADVENTURER. And I see my character as an adventurer primarily (that's how I chose to introduce myself to sharlayan as well), one who might be involved in world ending scenarios with a great group of buddies.. but the whole reason he started doing it was the fun/thrill of adventuring around discovering places, fighting strong enemies having a good laugh with people he cares about. So when zenos posed the question to the adventurer in me, I saw that as 'its not that I don't care about people or the world but at that moment, away from everything, the pure reason I go out from one adventure to another is not to help nations in their grand schemes and problems, but rather the adventure that it provides. Of course its a given that ill happily provide my aid to friends even if they themselves represent their nations. The difference between me and zenos is that I will put that aside when it comes to helping people BUT if I were in an empty void with no one else in sight with only a foe against me who is itching to fight me 1v1 to the death ... I can't deny I don't enjoy the thrill of battle.

The Zenos fight was indeed perfect when choosing option 1: when I smiled at Zenos, together with my character, all the sadness and worry of the world that we had been carrying disappeared as the joy of battle took over. I am happy my character is the option 1 kind :))

Before trying out FFXIV, I was never that “lore” guy. By the end of EW, the lore is as important, to me, as all the raiding, crafting, etc.

You talked about how there should've been a longer dialogue with Zenos.. But that's not what Zenos was like. He had said all he had wanted to said and wanted nothing else than to fight you. There was nothing more for you to talk about. He came there to duel you, his only friend who was able to beat him. Everything else was just a hindrance to your duel.

Zenos found his meaning, he is the ultimate rejection of Meteion, even after he dies he uses Dynamis to give out one statement to us "Live", harkening back to our Doma conversation, and this drops the teleporter down and saves us

Zenos was too far gone for us to truly converse with, but all you could really do is show him mercy at the end. He technically saved the world twice because he answered Hermes' question for himself and found something to live for. Reminds me of one of Hermes lines to his creations, paraphrased "choose your own path, it can be rage and you are justified to it, but put away your despair". I hated Zenos for most of his screentime but the ending moment still thematically landed very well for me. I would have felt cheated coming to more of an understanding, or him talking to you logically. Would destroy his entire character - he had to just die, and the WoL had to give him that mercy. You can't just end an expansion where you're fighting for everyone's ability to define their own meaning (with the consequences that follow), and then ignore the Zenos elephant in the room

I'm not sure I really get the Zenos take, especially when it comes to proving who was right and who was wrong. You yourself said it, there is no grand and correct meaning to life, Zenos is no more or less right than the WoL regardless of what their outlook is because both are correct in a nihilistic universe. Zenos found the one thing in the whole of world that gave him meaning and he pursued it to the very end, you can't convince Zenos that his path is somehow wrong because he knows with the entirety of his body and soul that this is what he wants. In fact I think it would be unbelievably disappointing and weak if you could somehow just talk Zenos out of fighting, it would be like Meteion talking the Warrior of Light out of being a hero and convincing them to give into despair, their determination and sheer force of will are part of what makes them mirrors of one another. In the end you do the fight because either you want to do the fight in-character or becasue Zenos is not ever going to stop until he gets that fight, you have all the freedom in the world of how your character feels about either stopping the villain or wanting to brawl with a rival or whatever, but you can't talk him down any more than you could talk down the Endsinger or Fandaniel.

Endwalker made RP walking up a staircase 100,000 more impactful than ANYTHING in Shadowlands. I can't take anything Danuser has "written" seriously after that. I went into EW expecting the moon to be the "big final zone" with all the surprises. But nope, we get there early on and easily yeet Zodiark. That's when I knew it was getting real. Elpis and Ultima Thule just blew me away, mind seriously blown. I totally get your nihilism thing too. In fact, the universe being what it is, with no meaning, no plan, no "builder", makes it even more amazing. Meaning is something you create for yourself.

That scene of Venat, walking on through death and suffering and despair, becoming ever more battered and bloodied, but still walking, her eyes still shining, still keeping the faith of that promise we didn't even know we made so long ago, knowing in her heart of hearts that we would fulfill it.....that scene still gets me. I've watched it over a dozen times now. The game has been out since Early Access for 20 days and I've seen that CS more than once every other since then because it's simply so damn powerful. She never gave up, even when she was literally the only light left in the darkness, when her former friends and allies were doing everything they could to cause her immeasurable pain, because she knew that as long as she held on, we would be there to pick up the torch and carry on in her stead.

I think talking down Zenos would of been out of character for both characters. There are snippets in the Dark Knight quest for example that our WoL isn't necessarily a wholly saint, that a part of em seeks out the fights cause of the thrill and cause they want to.

I think the problem is that you didn't entirely know how you felt about Zenos. By this point, most players either loved or hated him, and either wanted the epic showdown, or just wanted to kill him. I don't think anyone expected that you would want a longer conversation with him because there's not really anything more to say. You know his motives, he made his stance on morality and meaning in life clear in the conversation with Jullus, and nothing anyone says is going to convince him otherwise.

I think Zenos character fits perfectly into endwalkers theme about the purpose of life. Zenos has a very simple answer to that: fulfillment means fighting past ones own limits, it means devoting ones all in a fight, he will reach out for his happiness no matter the cost. He lives for the very extreme of the present. For the moment. For the time between seconds. The universe and life is suffering and pain and most civilizations being faced with its future and lamenting their own past couldn't handle the horror of it all. Meteion in her empathy followed her own conclusion from experiencing so much despair and suffering that life must end if there is no purpose. Zenos in his apathy saw the senseless void in front of him which only made him appreciate the moments of happiness and fulfillment more. It resonates with endwalkers theme of finding sense in a senseless universe, that evereyone has their own answer for existence. I also liked how he got character development after alisae told him that even though he may be right in how everyone will try to justify their own actions with self-righteousness, nobody will give him the time of the day if he only lives for himself. And in the end he realized that he is much more likely to get the fight he wants if he is willing to help and reach out to others. Zenos from a moral standpoint is an absolute monster but in Endwalkers context he fits so well as an existential hero.

First of all, Zenos is not the final boss. It's literally just an encore fight that alot of old video games do. Secondly, whatever you say to Zenos is the correct answer, if you hate him, if you don't care or if you finally understand his motivation, there's no wrong answer.

I honestly think blazing through the story to catch up was a bad move. You didn't get to see how the WoL acts in the side content stories, if you did maybe you'd have a better understanding of that scene and not just seeing it as a "4th wall" break

"Dragged into a fight with Zenos with little player expression" Option 1: Understanding Zenos & giving him what he wants because you want it. This ultimately expresses your character if they are power-driven and thrill-seeking. This shows approval to zenos. Option 2: Failing to understand Zenos & giving him what he wants out of pragmatic necessity (since he won't stop until you fight him). This ultimately expresses that your character has no connection with him as it does not serve your character. This shows indifference to zenos. Option 3: Understanding Zenos, but giving him what he wants only as a means to remove him from your life once and for all. This ultimately expresses your character's strong emotions for your friends and the safety of the world & those emotions boiling over when the biggest threat to everything refuses to stop endangering them. This shows hatred to zenos. I'm curious what other kind of expression you might want that isn't generally covered by those 3 choices. They could have added more, sure, but when you boil everything down to it's most basic simples; you either like zenos, hate zenos, or are indifferent to him.

We've been dealing with Zenos and his moral relativity dialogue for 4 years now. The last thing most of us wanted was another long monologue. For me, it would have completely killed the mood of the fight we've been waiting for since 4.0. In my experience, as a player that has played this game for years, I appreciated that we didn't go down that stupid dialog hole again. What could he possibly say that we haven't heard before? That he didn't say at the end? Are we really gonna bog down the final fight with another discussion? No, the time was ripe to end it. I viewed the fight as a celebration of completing the story, and thoroughly enjoyed it. We finally got that fight with him that we've both been waiting for.

Zenos ending was perfect. You can disagree with someone on every single point that defines them, and yet still find common ground somewhere. Edit: Additionally in many ways after everything I had been through in the game I had almost forgotten that at the end of the day, before the warrior of light, I am an adventurer who started seeking out danger and new experiences for my own pleasure before getting sucked up in saving the realm, and in that moment at duty's end, that no longer has to take a backseat.

I think it's easy to forget the context of this final scene. Zenos' actions saved all of humanity and all of existence from being wiped out. Without his intervention, it seems likely that the WoL would fail to stop Endsinger. So, after making a deal with your allies to save you and prevent the end of the universe, he rather politely asks you to grant his wish for one last big fight. Narritively he doesn't force you to do it, he says you're free to walk away. He doesn't ask you as a villain, but as an admirer and as a "friend" of sorts. His character has clearly evolved over the story arc to have something approximating empathy for the WoL. Wether you like Zenos or not, you are indebted to him and this final fight seems like a completely fair recompense for his assistance.

I love the commentary on the Zenos encounter. I saw my character the same way as you, but I saw the first option as my character throwing Zenos a bone because he has finally learned that in order for people to truly care about him, he has to understand what they want and need as well from Alisaie. I interpreted it as "Yes, there is a little bit of that in me, you want to see that part of me, you've earned your amazing battle at the edge of the universe". Really cool commentary though, I've had a different experience but I appreciate your pov.

We know through some job quests that the WoL has some inner rage and resentment. I don't think he/she was ever meant to be a perfect good-two-shoes beacon of righteousness. Thats why agreeing with Zenos felt like a good conclusion to the story. You can be a hero and still enjoy the fighting. The whole expansion was about "emotions", so this final acceptance of the darker parts of your being seemed fitting.

I think the reason why Zenos didn't land for you, was because you did only the MSQ and pretty much rushed to get to the new expansion. If you'd done the Dark Knight quests, you'd know that even as early as Heavensward, there was a constant burden on the WoL to push forward, do what people expect of you etc. This was only exasperated with traveling to the Far East, then to another world, and finally to the freakin end of the universe. The ending bit of the expansion even stresses this aspect, with the Scions themselves finally asking that we listen to our own wishes and desires, for a change. In the end, the final duel of Zenos and the "That, I can't deny" line is simply the WoL embracing the fact that yes, I want to fight this person not for the greater good, but for our own selfish reasons and our own enjoyment, or rather no other reason than to fight and kick each others' ass. And then the Scions break apart, and everyone finally picks his own path. You are even asked, quite intently, on what YOUR own plans are, and the WoL doesn't answer, because of course each player has their own goals. And the ending, kinda showed to me that Zenos not only sees as a friend, but also believes to us THE MOST. He looked at the Endsinger, and he only saw a hindrance, and his line "I take it this is your prey, but why does it still live? Surely it's no match for you", is him pretty much taking it for granted that it's "EZ clap" and you can get on with your fight. He kinda reminded me or Gilgamesh/Enkindu, with this whole dynamic.

Option 2 didn't rip me out of the moment, I'm just annoyed at everyone implying I'm objectively wrong for choosing it.

I loved the zenos part, it felt like adding a lil bow on top of a gift. Zenos having his own and only reason to live, only to have it end so quickly like he said. It ties into the theme of the story so well and I think this is why they chose to revive zenos. Lol, alot of ppl hate zenos which I get, but I got sad when he died. Almost teared up. I think it's for the same reason I cried for yotsuyu. It's kind of like, we were able to see the good in all of the villains EXCEPT for zenos. It's like we wanted him to change because, hades destroyed millions of people so surely zenos could be redeemable or relatable somehow. But zenos was a lost cause, and he knew it. He knew alisaie was right. He couldn't change it though. Because he literally could not comprehend people and their emotions. Zenos' story could only end well with copius amounts of therapy maybe. I doubt they had that in Garlemald or proper anywhere. In the end he did listen to alisaie. He gave, and then he finally got back.

Sucks to hear Zenos didn't land for you. For me and many others he absolutely did. The thing is I feel Zenos isn't just great as a foil to the WoL, but as an antithesis to the question posed by Meteion and Hermes. He DID find a meaning to his life; fighting you. No matter how fleeting it may be, he lived solely for the sparks that flew in your battle. He's more of a neutral development character who works as a foil to the WoL, the player themself, and the narrative of the whole story. I think he worked really, really well in that regard. I think his fight at the end really works, because it's the first time he wasn't involving anyone else; he just helped you win, and then when there was nothing on the line, made his petition again, appealing to your character instead of just trying to anger you. What landed for me is that he says "Not as a hero, but as just you" and refers to you as an adventurer. Without those moments I don't think it would have been as strong.

I think option 1 isn't going to exclude the relationships and motivations the WoL has, just it serves as an acknowledgement of the fact that you also know that same thrill and love of a challenge. You are the seat of Azem, ready to leap into a volcano before it erupts. It doesn't change anything about how my WoL has worked, fought, and killed to protect her friends, her home, and her world... but it gives a little more insight to the fact that, at heart, she is not just a mute who nods along from heroic deed to heroic deed, but that she is the yin to Zenos's yang, the light to his dark. He is the worst embodiment of that desire for challenge, for excellence... and the WoL is the best. They have almost nothing in common save that single core trait, which is fundamental to their beings. Two people who can start from the same place and end up in very different destinations.

For me Zenos landed perfectly, I even said to myself that, unlike some FF games where you fight a big cosmic horror right after beating the big baddy, that it should be reversed, you only get to fight the personal battle if you save the world first. And even with the character, there's a million things you can do in the world, but the one restriction is that you only fight to save the world in one fashion or another, whether you're leveling a new job or raiding for gear, there's always that implicit reasoning of preparing for the MSQ, hell you can even fit the gathering and crafting jobs into that paradigm. And so the second all that is over, the second you save the world and all your efforts can no longer be justified with "you need to save the world", finally you can let loose, in comes Zenos with perfect timing, and the adventurer who started this journey gets to peek their head out a little, and have one big glorious fight, not to save the world or protect this or that, no, it's just for their own sake. No consequences, no strings attached, and practically no stakes outside your own, you just get to lay into each other till you can't even stand up.

Honestly the conclusion with zenos was my favorite part of the expansions (not just cause of the scene of my monk punching the hell out of him) but because it was such a spectacle. I'm a sucker for the whole " we beat the big bad, saved the world, rescued our friends, and finished our quest....but there's one last thing I need to take care of" That said, I do get why some people dislike him. He's a static villain that doesn't change much, has singular obsessions, and can sometimes feel like he's forcing his ideals upon us. What I think most people fail to grasp is the weight of Alisae's words to him. When he approaches us after meteion, he offers to let us go, and isn't forcing his will upon us anymore. He speaks to us as an adventurer, and breaks the 4th wall a bit at the same time. Everything we do outside of MSQ is optional and serves only to scratch our itch for more content, for more fights. In that moment he's speaking to us as an equal, offering a challenge for us to enjoy. I think that subtle change makes a big difference. All that said though, I get that the simple, irredeemable, straightforward villain isn't everyone's cup of tea. I think we need those villains though, since it makes the Emet Selchs of the story stand out that much more. Personally I think a lot of people wrote him off in stormblood and never looked back.

I mean you could've just picked the "I can't let you leave" option and it fits your feelings towards Zenos perfectly, it is what I did. Also option 1 only means you agree you like adventures and the thrill of battle, not that you agree you are perfect mirrors, not even that you understand Zenos or think he is justified.

I loved the scene vs Zenos. I chose option 1 and my character finally admits that they're more complex than a simple goody two shoes. That a part of them craves the challenge in battle as he does. It's not an acceptance of everything Zenos is but a common ground between the two. It didn't seem out of character at all since up until Endwalker I was a Dark Knight for a long time and option 1 felt like a little of that personality slipping out as I was playing Paladin.

Yeah I can understand why Zenos didn't land for you. I myself have never been a fan of him, but in that last dialogue I had to go with option 1 because what he said made me think back on stories outside of the MSQ, how everything we get involved in with raids and trials is basically the WoL being up for a challenge. Sure we stay and help where we can, but it's a little different to MSQ. We are also in it for our own enjoyment of a good fight. So yeah maybe if you were a long time player who had all these experiences it might have been different

I'm surprised how happy and at peace I was after I finished. I was expecting the grief, the trauma, the frustration from lose ends. It's been so many years since I started there is no way they can wrap this up. I was pleasantly surprised how much I enjoyed it. It was bittersweet but with more laughter and sweetness then expected.

I think what ultimately sold me on Zenos was something someone said about him and alisaie. He was so obsessed with forcing us to fight, with making us hate him enough to fight him again, but he never thought to just ask for it, to just maybe consider walking up and asking us to spar with him. Both characters are on equal footing so noone would be as good a partner, but his biggest failing was for as ungodly intelligent as he was, he could never see the forest through the trees. His finally coming all that way to Ultima Thule, that was him putting his pride aside and realising what he must do to get the fight he wants, and once he just goes to us and asks, that's when he can finally get the fight he wants whether or not it's cause it's that genuine fight like option 1 or not... Although, I'd have loved am option that is the theme playing while we walk away from him just as he said we could, maybe with him giving some self enlightened monologue, since by this time, he'd finally understood who we are and who he is.

My take on Zenos: his character arc perfectly encapsulates the themes of Endwalker. The meaning of his life is empty and defined by fighting the WoL, highlighted by when he visited the area in Stormblood where we fought him, whereas we fight for the Scions and the people we care about. And therefore, we live whereas he (supposedly) dies as have all the civilizations that failed to find meaning in their lives. Although, he does remind us to enjoy the present and not focus on trying to find some special meaning in life to live up to, which is why he expresses how much joy he finds when he fights us. His life may be empty to us looking at him, but he still doesn't fall to despair like other civilizations did because he focuses on living in the present rather than create perfect utopias.

I feel like your take on the encounter with Zenos at the end is more head canon than anything else, we are all playing the same character with the same personality. Our character is the reincarnation Azem the traveler, the character who jumps into volcanos to save some grape, someone who travels the world seeking thrills and righting wrongs, we just lost her memories but the personality is still there. This isn't dragon age or mass effect, we don't get to decide who the WoL is or change their personality or alter any beats of the story. like it or not what Zenos said was true about the character we play in FFXIV. Our chatacter is ever eager to flex their muscles and go beat the new big threat. Everyone comments on how excited we are to go fight these things and that is because the WoL loves the challenge, we just have more in life that we care about.

Zenos' final question is not a fourth wall break. It's a call back to the very first question you answer in ARR: "Why did you become an adventurer?"

Zenos's ending is hard to put into words. All I can really say is: there, at the edge of the universe, with no-one as our witness, me or my WoL wouldn't have passed up that opportunity. Quite opposite to Michael, I felt *extremely* connected to my character when we got to say "That I can't deny"...to the point I actually clenched my fist during the final punch in the cutscene. Yes you may laugh. xD Nevertheless, very interesting to hear Michael's somewhat unique experience with Zenos.

I wholly felt Zenos as an indictment of the player at the end. The Wol's part in the story is done at the end of the last 8 man trial and Zenos appears, breaking the 4th wall addressing the player directly. "You did this for fun. Regardless of narrative, this is all a game and you know it. So indulge me as I indulge you." and you can't answer in that moment as your character, but as yourself because the proposition is not addressed at the Wol. And if you like nihilism but worry about its personal implications, look into absurdism. Its like nihilism without the pessimism.

Bellular "ran" through FFXIV. He went from beginning to end, never doing any of the raids, grinds for relics, leveling of other jobs, doing normal party runs. He just ran the MSQ and thats it. Yeah, I guess he would not like the final conclusion because he never experienced the game like players playing for years. I like the ending, I wanted to end him. Stop his persistent wanting for a rematch. It had to be done, or he would only hurt more to achieve it.

Zenos's whole arc is realising that unlike what he thought in stormblood, you arnt the same, actually you are quite opposite. fighting is all Zenos has ever had, its all he has to give and all he receives, while you have something to fight for. he realises this and decides that since you have something to live for, he wont force you to humor him. but he also knows how you started your journey, a simple adventurer looking for the next journey, while you may have got pulled into a grand destiny and fought for this universes fate, you always search for new challenge and grow in strength, like leveling new classes or taking on optional content. and putting aside the hero titles for that one singular moment, you simply cant deny. though that is my take on it, they did make options 2 and 3 for a reason so whatever

I never like Zenos in SB. When he was revived in ShB, I'm like... WHY?! Just let him stay dead. But in the final fight with Zenos, I finally like him. He is just like a lot of us, trying to find meaning in life. And I feel pity for him. Regardless him winning or losing, he will feel empty afterwards. As for the WoL, he has always been fighting for others. Every fights have dire consequences for losing. But on the final fight, he get to fight for himself. A short moment of selfishness to enjoy what he really likes. Which is why I love the final fight a lot.

Bit disappointed you didn't go more in-depth about the final zone and the build up to the final dungeon + raid and went straight to Zenos. For me, that was when the expansion hit its peak: the music in the final zone, the voices of all the characters of your past, the summoning of Emet-Selch and Hytholodaeus, and then the 2nd half of the final trial. The Zenos fight was just the cherry on top.

I know this comment is a bit late to the party, but I just had a bit of a revelation that I had to share. Bellular might actually be wrong in his perception of the final Zenos fight, and I don't mean "It was a cool moment, so it was good to me." Let me just put it out there first... Zenos was the perfect character to appear and have a fight with at the end. In fact, I think the sole reason why he was still around as a character is specifically for this moment. Let me explain. First, the answer that we have arrived to for Hermes' question. What is the point of living/what is the meaning of life if it is filled with suffering and at the end of it all is death? The answer being that there is no meaning, but by experiencing life's many smaller moments of happiness and joy do we find our own meaning for life and gives us the reason to keep living. And Bellular 100% got that right with life's meaning not being about the end, but the journey. Next, let's apply the answer to these two characters: The Player/WoL and Zenos. - The WoL, through their many experiences from beginning to end, has experienced many highs and lows. Moments of joy and happiness and moments of sadness and suffering. But it wasn't until near the end when the WoL realized what this answer was and had no real idea as to why he kept fighting other than to keep everyone safe. But why keep everyone safe? Because these people are what drives the WoL forward and is the main source of their happiness and joy. AKA, they want to preserve the moments of happiness and joy because it is both their reason and meaning for living (refer to the answer for comparison and you can get where I'm going with this). - Zenos, on the other hand, had only experienced happiness by beating tougher and tougher foes. He kept seeking that happiness until he eventually couldn't find anymore happiness because he became the strongest. With the lack of any form of happiness, he constantly suffered from boredom trying to find that next great opponent to give him that sense of joy to give his life meaning again. And he eventually found that opponent in the WoL. After soundly beating the WoL in their first battle, Zenos finally found an opponent with the potential to give him a challenge and finally give him joy. In that way, it actually makes sense that Zenos would let the WoL live as opposed to the thousands of others he has killed because the WoL was his key to finally being relieved of his suffering. After fighting, getting beaten, killing himself, and then being brought back, Zenos had gained a singular drive that allowed him to keep living despite having died once before: to fight the WoL one more time and make it the most joyous fight he can possibly make it so that he can feel true joy. He made this pursuit for the greatest happiness his reason and meaning for living (again, refer to the answer). Finally, let's talk about that final moment with the WoL and Zenos. Zenos did not wish to have the moment be viewed as simply hero vs. villain, but rather as person to person. He lays it out flat that his sole pleasure is to fight the WoL and the only pleasure he is willing to share. He wants the fight to be as pleasurable as possible and knows, thanks to Alisae's words, that if the WoL isn't up for a fight to the death, then it won't be fun for him so he even offers the WoL the opportunity to say no. And he even understands that the main source of the WoL's happiness lies in the well being of the people. But, surprising perceptive or unsurprisingly characteristic of him, he knows that the protection of the people is not the WoL's SOLE source of joy and happiness. It is also the WoL's willingness to get strong and stronger for its own sake and for no other reason other than to fill the desire for more. And to bring that thought to the forefront, he refers to you as adventurer. Adventurer, a person who's goal is to seek out new experiences in the hopes of enriching themselves. And for the WoL, this meant getting into fights against increasingly stronger opponents so that they have the strength to experience new things. Exactly what Zenos said, by virtue of being an adventurer, he is correct in his statement that the WoL is also fighting so that he can get stronger so he can sate his thirst for adventure and be happy. And the natural next step for them would be to fight and see who is stronger so that they may attain their own happiness. What I'm trying to get at here is that the WoL and Zenos are both pursuing their own forms of happiness so that they keep having a reason and meaning for living. Two different people with two different ways of reaching the same answer to Hermes' question. The journey that built the WoL vs. the journey that built Zenos. The desire for adventure vs. the desire for battle. Two very different kinds of people, but both are after the same thing: happiness that will give their lives meaning. And after the grand epic final battle against Meteon, the only real final battle that could top that would be a battle that transcends the surface-level good vs. evil and goes for a more idealogical battle. And Zenos perfectly fits that bill because he is the only character to have as much drive (or more drive) for the pursuit of happiness as the WoL's desire to adventure and protect the people. A perfect opponent for the perfect battle of wills. TL;DR: Please read, but basically Zenos and the WoL are both pursuing happiness to give their lives meaning, which lines up with the answer to Hermes' question in where the meaning of life is in the journey. And since no one else has as much drive for the pursuit of happiness compared to the WoL's desire for adventure, Zenos is the perfect opponent for an idealogical final battle.

Two things with the Zenos encounter is : 1. I don't think he's REALLY gone in any permanent way. As a fan of storytelling, if I don't see a body, I wont confirm it lmao 2. I really enjoyed the "well I finally caught up to you and now we don't have any distractions, let's duke it out so I can feel something". He's incredibly himself and HAS been over the past 4 years. It's amazing how consistent he is. I think it perfectly reflects Cirina's prophecy of "two suns, one light and one dead and cold swirling around each other in a field of nothingness" (or along those lines).

I in all honesty considered this first option not as a "I didn't develope"-Situation as you kind of imply, and more in a "Despite all this..."-Answer. Despite saving the World - more than one and more than once, traveling to the end of the universe, finding friends, almost losing them again to find them once more and there you stand with Zenos at the edge of forever, no threat to the world left "no fight left to fight" but because you fought dread itself... you are still you. A different you maybe, a stronger you, a more experienced you that lost so much and so many, sacrificed their own happiness for that of everyone else countless times... but you did not lose yourself ever. You could have become something vengeful, something horrible and something brutal that kills just to kill for more thrills and searches for power as Gaius once said you should, like Emet was sure you would turn out to be but didn't. You are still you at heart. You are still an adventurer in spirit. And while this may seem wrong to you, to me this is an optimistic perspective. And it shows that even for the Warrior of Light there still is a future after all these things, because while now there is so much more and so many more to protect and care for, they are still very much themselves and have not been torn apart in all the chaos because they "held onto hope"... And deep inside, they still very much look forward to experience all those places Emet mentioned and to "go adventuring again". That they "can't deny". But for that, they first got to tie up the last lose end in all of this. The only rival and enemy not defeated at this very moment, which is Zenos. So why not partake in some self indulgence, now that everything else is said and done, without anything at stake but yourself and Zenos. And if you want to go along with him being a metaphor and a foil for the player rather then WoL... i would see that moment as a hint that no matter how much changes and how much time has passed and how big and grand you have become... don't forgot your humble roots. And maybe that is evne more a metaphor for MMOs themselves... and not just FF14.

I felt Zenos final conversation / confrontation was in the same vein as when Yoshi-P speaks to you during The Rising event. It is a conversation adressed to me the player and served to fuse me as a person into my WoL character.

Regarding Elpis, there's actually another interpretation. The thing is, Pandora's Jar is supposed to be filled with calamities so why would hope be a calamity ? And thus, scholar have reinterpreted Elpis not as hope, but as "expectation". The final calamity is knowing that all the other calamity may fall upon you, a curse of knowledge. But this expectation also allow people to brave these calamities, because they know it can happen they do their best to prepare for it and endure when it inevitably come, knowing that their suffering is not eternal and there is light beyond the immediate darkness.

For me the Zenos moment really clicked because playing through the msq I always pictured my character as a violent rage-monster who did hero stuff not because they were a good person, but because they wanted to be one. And the Zenos moment was so perfect because for once the WoL could just let go of all pretense and just be themselves without reservation.

Zenos didn't want a conversation. He wanted a fight, and that's the only reason he helped you. Had you walked away, you would be reinforcing his prior approach of just wrecking everything to get your attention, where as with the way it happened you are reinforcing the idea that helping others out is how you get them to help you out. Also, just because the warrior of light does things for the sake of his friends and Etheirys, I think you'd be lying if you said you didn't do certain things in game to have fun, after all that's what this game is about, and just because that's true doesn't mean you're the same as Zenos or that that's your only motivation. I also play the game because of the good characters, but this doesn't go against the fact that the trials or the dungeons in this game, aren't fun because I love re-experiencing saving the world every day, but for the sake of the fun of that dungeon or trial.

Zenos is a fascinating character, because You have to search the answers by Yourself. Therefore, he is not easy to understand. There are 3 degrees of lecture or layers about Zenos. 1st layer : Zenos our "friend" the parody of a villain, the meme, a cynical comic relief. 2nd layer, Zenos : the 4th wall breaker, the MMO PvP player, meta topic about us, the player. 3rd layer : Zenos, the Transcendance seeker. Searching to be free of his ego, status,nationality appartenance, by reaching pure and raw emotions, through combat. And Suffering, in order to feel alive and forget his depression, despair.

As someone who really really enjoyed the final Instance and Zenos' part in the story until and including the very end, I very much appreciate that you're giving such an in-depth opinion of how you feel about it! Very insightful, and presented in an easy to understand way, and while I personally don't feel the same way you did, it's great food for thought regardless. Kudos for that.

Urianger with Moenbryda's parents broke me. Most wholesome and heartfelt moment to date i think. Never thought it was possible to be better than SHB but my god they did it

Regarding Zenos and Player's expression: (Reposting my response from Reddit) I think is important to note that FF14 isn't a choose your own adventure type of RPG where you decide how your WoL should act or feel. There is a very clear and defined personality that your character has, and a story that the writer wants to tell. For example, in the dark knight job quest, we get to learn a lot about the WoL internal struggles as well. You are burdened by the responsibilities and expectations placed upon you as a Hero. And there is a side of you that you do not wish others to see. And you also have many regrets about the lives you took along the way. Hence Fray and Myste were born. In Albert's story (Who is another you in a different world). He also said that he and his companions were just adventurers trying to make their way and help the people in front of them. They never aspired to be the warriors of light. But the words of their deeds spread and soon people are calling them heroes and placed their hope and dreams on their shoulders to fight for all that was good. That is exactly what happened to you too! Throughout your journey, you have been asked several times by your companions "What do you want to do when all of this is over?" and I think it is very intentional. The title of a hero carries a lot of weight and responsibilities that are not always present. But deep down, you are just an adventurer who seeks joy in the thrill of battles. Zenos is the only person who sees and recognized this side of you because you are his "Mirror", the only difference is that one values life and the other doesn't. I mean just look at how damaged the WoL already becomes in the Shadowbringer trailer. Fordola was in shock by simply having a glimpse of your past and question how anyone can possibly endure all of this. Many people argue why Zenos comes back in EW when he barely shows up and that the story would be better if he just dies in SB and never come back. But I believe that EW isn't about Zenos as the main villain at all. He is there to give your character a closure. At journey's end in the edge of the universe, free of all the burden, the only person who is equal to you in battle is offering you a duel of the lifetime. Zenos even said you can walk away if you want, but he knew you wanted this just as much as he does. That is your "Reward" at the end of all this, there is no grand reason behind this fight, you do it simply because you want to do it. And that is his "Gift" to you. IMO, The "I can't deny it" option is the only option where your character can be true to yourself and live for the moment.

My headcanon for why the remote teleporter landed precisely where and when it did is because of the ephemeral nature of the edge of the universe. It's YOUR teleporter that you dropped when you yeeted the Scions back to Ragnarok, and it continued falling forever in a realm that doesn't follow the laws of nature, until the precise moment you needed it to live. Your emotions post-fight with Zenos forced the Dynamis to effect your will before you expired.

A part of me wishes with Zenos that we had the option to say that we would rather work together and to get home before settling anything with Zenos, but then again. I was an option 2 person

Isn't option 2 'whatever, I can't let you live' basically the option you are advocating for where Zenos is mistaken but has to die? Am I tripping?

I think that last part with Zenos really depends on how you feel about Zenos. I REALLY liked that part. And also having a conversation with Zenos? Haven't we learned that that really isn't possible? He talks by fighting. It's just who he is. Stopping and having a conversation with him at that point really wouldn't make sense, so I disagree with you there. Also our character liking to fight does not mean he likes killing. You seem to misunderstand there. I think that is easier understandable if you watched Shonen anime in the past, like Naruto for example. He loved to fight, but hated when people died. Even the fight resembled the Naruto vs Sasuke fight a lot. And I think that was on purpose.

Yo I finally finished Endwalker too and I could watch this video, what a blast it was! Love your impressions, man, keep it up! While I personally really enjoyed the final duel with Zenos and I gladly took him up on his challenge, I really understand where you're coming from, in fact part of what made it so awesome to me was that I thought I really did have a choice to decline him as well! The dialogue options are not as obvious in German. So yeah, this is the one moment where your choice should have affected the outcome, wholeheartedly agree! I would have done a bit differently though, maybe you like this: Introduce a fourth option to take him up on HIS OFFER to let you leave, because remember he said you could and he wouldn't stop you. "I will take my leave then, Zenos" And then Zenos is like laughing "After all this, that I could have misjudged you so! What a silly game I played." And then he draws his scythe, assuming his demonic form. "Or truly, did I?" And then he charges forward!! Your character gets pissed, drawing their weapon, but then as Zenos strikes his attack is blocked by another blade! And your character is baffled, like what? And then you see who it was that blocked Zenos' charge, it was Zenos himself, literally having split into two! And then the hype music starts and he turns his head toward you: "It matters not. What, you think I didn't mean it when I said I wouldn't stop you?" And then he kicks the other Zenos away. "Rest assured you provided me ample challenge that none other than you could have, my mirror! Here, past the far edge of fate, where everything is possible!" And then he charges you again, only to be ripped back and sent to the floor with an aetherial chain manifesting around his neck, his other self literally having him on a leash to keep him from reaching you. You don't know which of the two Zenoses is the one trying to attack/defend you, it just changes randomly. He lifts his arm "Go then, ever onward! Turn to the light and forge your path, hero!" And as he turns toward his other incarnation again "Only one thing I bid you, make this moment last." You turn around and walk toward the light as the battle between the two Zenoses goes on. And as you walk, you hear Zenos reminiscing about the past, the same way he does after the duel, with some cool fight scenes in between. And it makes sense, doesn't it, that his final challenge would be himself! He never had to challenge himself in his life, it would be his greatest duel and he would love it! That your choice would be the catalyst for it, I think it would work! And with the Dynamis in full action it would be done as an actual duel between two Zenos incarnations! Finally the transmission device comes flying down with a twinkle. And as the device is ticking, you look back one last time to see a beat-up Zenos mirroring your gaze as he is about to be devoured by a gigantic Shinryu, smiling. That would have been so sick imo, it would have been just as silly, a character moment, it would have been hype just like the duel, only an actual option for everyone who feels more like you did. And it would have made my own choice more meaningful in turn.

one thing, I would like to point out. When Zenos was first introduced to us at the Fan Fest for Stormblood announcement, Yoshida had claimed that Zenos was going to be a different kind of antagonist that we hadn't come up against before. Zenos' characterization has been pretty true the entirety of his story. He is different.

Endwalker absolutely nailed the entire story of the ancients. Venat, Hythlodaeus, Emet, Hermes and Meteion are all GOAT and I enjoyed every second of it. All the hangout scene with the scions were amazing as well. Ishikawa is such a queen in terms of writing characters and their relationships.

As someone who hated Zenos in stormblood, he really landed for me this time. I always considered my character to be someone who, while always striving to help others, does find a thrill in the challenge of it all. In my head that’s probably why they became an adventurer originally and only through the events of the story did they truly acknowledge the weight of it all beyond the excitement of testing their might. I think it’s just baked into the character that they strive for greater challenges considering the many side quests and trials you can do beyond what’s necessary. Hell, when you and Venat are alone your immediate actions are to spar with each other. The fight with Zenos at the end reflected that Sparring match with Venat to me so I agreed with him there. That aside, he did come all the way to the edge of everything to help us save the star so like, idk I felt like it was fair to humor him for aiding us rather than demanding we fight again. A favor for a favor at the edge of reality where it’s certainly much safer to take him out once and for all.

I felt fighting Zenos was more a reward for realizing there is more then making me HATE him to make me want to fight him, that he can align his interests with mine and make me want to fulfill his wishes. Alisae gave him the the words I wanted my players to say, that his method would make me deny his desire of combat, and make me walk away even just in spite, but him making the active choice to see beyond the gray around him as kindling and as something he can use to connect us spurred me into wanting to reciprocate and find our mutual joy of beating the shit out of stuff. We became adventurers, not travelers, I don't want to see big rocks and deep water, I want to experience what those places have to offer and the best ones are those you get from others, including a Zenos that can do more then throw a tantrum to get his way.

Hey Matt. This is re: Zenos and how different you think you are. You can hate someone and everything they stand for, but doing so will never mean that you have nothing in common with that person. Humans are nuanced beings, and even the most virtuous among us will have elements in common with those who are evil. Admitting this and being able to empathize with others is not a weakness or something that we need to resist. In fact it's the opposite: by doing so you allow yourself to see your imperfections, to better understand your faults, and become a better person. The Warrior of Light, while "you," the player, must also have some autonomy in order to be a well-developed character and not just a vessel to be steered. The writers see the WoL in the context of the entire game, i.e., someone who fights to overcome challenges, to be the best, to defeat stronger and mightier foes. In this way, the WoL shares common ground with Zenos, whether you'd like to admit it or not. The line "This, I cannot deny" is not admitting that you are no better, or different than Zenos. Rather, it is merely an expression of common ground in a single aspect of their being... which is both true, and unsurprising. Also, the only reason you haven't yet played _this game,_ specifically, for the combat and experienced the "thrill of battle" is you haven't yet done Savage/Extreme content in the later expansions, lol. The moment you do this, you'll realize and understand how utterly FFXIV raiding shits on WoW raiding and better grasp the thrill of it. You'll no longer _just_ be playing for the story and characters. FFXIV has the best high-end raids in any MMORPG period, hands down.

I interpreted the Zenos moment less as us being the same and more of him seeing my WoL to their core, and called out to what started them on their adventure in the first place, self improvement and fighting stronger enemies. So doing the 1v1 with him really felt like the one time in the whole story the WoL was allowed to be selfish since they started their journey, and instead of fight to protect others they get to fight for themselves with no other stakes involved other than what comes with a fight to the death. Is it the smart or best choice? Maybe not, but for once it was theirs and theirs alone. Also do address your disconnect of Zenos' relation to your character, it might help to think of it this way. For the entire game up to Stormblood you were on a war path, literally nothing and no one could stand in your way, you are the definition of an unstoppable object... until Rhegals Reach. Zenos destroys everyone, you included with no special power other than his own strength. No primal energy, no special technology, just him. And I think that would stick with someone who until that point just never lost a fight, someone who was always strong enough. They may not have a lot of time together, but the time they do is very impactful and world changing for our characters. For the record im not super crazy about Zenos either and it took we weeks of reflection and other peoples opinion to change how I looked at him by the end

I think part of why you felt this way about the zenos encounter is cause of how you had to push hard through MSQ to get to EW launch date, maybe it would have hit different if you had the time to live the expansions and consider that all those experiences were also part of the wol's story as seen only by the player's eyes

My relationship with Zenos as a character kind of went opposite how everyone else's seems to have. When he "died" at the end of 4.0, after we fought him as Shinryuu, I was sad. I had at least felt some empathy for him, because he wanted a friend. After that point, however, every time he came back it was always about "I want to fight with you WoL!!!" and "I'm going to *destroy the world* so you'll come fight me WoL!!!" to the point where I wanted to put him out of my misery almost as much as I wanted to punch Fandaniel in Asahi's stupid face. So much like you, the final fight with Zenos, and the dialogue options we were given to lead into the fight with him, didn't really resonate with me. It was just one more chore to do before I (as the WoL) could finally *rest* for a bit. The parts that got me emotionally in EW were the two times that we had to say goodbye to Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus. The first at the end of Elpis, when they sacrificed their memories of their time with us so that we could escape and save the world in the future, and again when we summoned them with creation magic in Ultima Thule, and Emet-Selch hits us with "I asked you to remember, but I was the one who forgot." And then goes on to basically goad us into becoming a truly worthy successor of the mantle of Azem by reminding us that there are so many places on Eithrys that we have yet to visit, in true Emet-Selch tsundere style.

It's ironic that your comments in the video perfectly encapsulate Zenos... it was exactly what he said during his talk with Jullus. Regarding finding your own meaning, finding your own purpose and don't put it in someone or something else. Alisae's comments to him make him rethink what he's REALLY after, what is it he wants, what purpose does he wish to seek. There's irony in you not liking option 1... because option 1 is exactly what you do want. You seek challenge, you want to do extremes and savages, you did heroic and mythics in wow, you want AOTC, you do things for the challenge, it has no other extrinsic meaning. He is right and in game, your character is the same. The extremes are challenges you put yourself through. The raids? Optional. Savages? Optional. Trial series? Optional. These are all things you choose to do. Dialogue 1 DOES fit you from everything you have talked about, and it fits your character, because you choose to do those things in game. Part of you slipping through the cracks is probably also related to you slamming through every expansion in no time at all, going through raids unsynced. YOu had no time to absorb information, you did not do side content, and then you slammed through endwalker. You're claiming your character isn't something that she in fact is. Zenos got his wish... because as the WoL, you're an adventurer, you seek challenge. None of what happened in the game would have happened if your character did not purposely seek out greater challenges. His question to himself "What was it I looked for in you, and what did you seek in me?" says it all. In the end, he offered you the choice to leave, and the WoL as a character... would not.

I see where Michael is getting at in regards to the final choice and how his character does not reflect the final scene well. Although I understand how frustrating it is for the player to projects their own growth into the WoL, only to be denied by the story writing. The game has continuously implied heavily on the innate nature of the WoL, and the Holders of the Seat of Azem; especially in the recent expansions. No matter how sundered, how worn and torn, and how much we have suffered, we are always the Adventurer searching for new scenery, and stronger foes. One of the things which upset me the most was how the WoL would react to the end of each dungeons as the expansion progressed. At first it was just adventuring and enjoying the dungeon and fighting the boss, to which the WoL would cheer after each victory. After ARR and when dungeons became more story driven, you can see the WoL smile less and less to the point where there would be times the WoL would just straight up be sad at the end of a boss fight. Now when all things important has been taken care of, when nothing really matters any more, Zeno comes and tells you "YO!... time for some senseless fighting? You're an adventurer, yes?" how can I not be hyped and go "That, I cannot deny" and toss down my gloves. And honestly, what better ending can there be for two characters who resolve ALL problems through combat. I cannot count the times where we've been asked to help, and our solution is more often than not physical. The Teleporter from what I understand was pure luck from the WoL. After the WoL activated it and let it drift through the wind, it just floated there until the end of the fight. After talking with some of the character after the game, no one knew what you mean by the teleporter being by yourside.

Honestly, Zenos worked extremely well for me, except for the fact that he felt a bit shoehorned in the end. I'll let it slide though, his final fight makes sense, and the metacommentary on the player plus a bit of a 4th wall breaking is exactly what I was expecting him to be after Stormblood. I kinda wish they've returned him again in future expansions. Like, we survived the fight with him, he could survive too, and we know he can become a space dragon to come back to Etheirys. Not to mention that we have left him in a place full of dynamis, which he could master. I honestly want them to pull a Yotsuyu and give Zenos a redemption arc, and let him be a Sasuke to our Naruto thing. Squeenix can make it happen and let it feel earned.

I honestly think that you should do the side content now , there's story and dialogue options in those too so you can really start to learn and see that the character we play as is a real character and not just what we make them out to be and whenever EW gets on New game + perhaps you could redo it and pay more attention to all the times people spoke about Azem, Venat, and our character's "thirst for adventure" , and Alphinaud calling us an adventurer in mhor dhona and maybe the ending will hit a little different. Sure for some its a 4th wall break but for me because of how long I've played this game , did the side content, seen those dialogue options throughout them and the msq It is definitely 100% in character that Azem would have fought him in the end regardless of those dialogue options. I think option 1 is 100% what he'd choose cause he fought a volcano but the other options work too

Yay for finishing! Also I always love the music in the outros of these vids

Hmm, I've seen option 1 and I didn't go with it myself, but I didn't mind how Zenos ended up. To me the way it wrapped up was that Zenos finally understood that if he was going to get the fight he craved, he first needed to understand MY needs. He lends assistance in the final fight, in a sense, and while that doesn't make up for all his past crimes, he does at least finally acknowledge Alisae's words to him. He decided to, for just a minute, care about something outside of himself. And for that one act, despite my WoL having no real interest in fighting for fighting's sake, Zenos had earned his battle. So my attitude very much fit the second option of 'Believe what you want. But you can't be allowed to leave this place.' By that point I was thinking 'you know Zenos, if you want to believe this is some sort of blissful reunion of two souls destined to clash then whatever, you can have it. Enjoy. I just have a job to do.' It worked for me on that level, but what I will say is that I didn't need it.

Choice 1 was for me the pinnacle of Endwalker and I loved the whole expansion. This and the Dark Knight quest are some of the few opportunities where our character can have a bit of depth, beyond being the spotless hero who tirelessly works to help everyone. That doesn't mean that our actions for good are false, they are a part of us and the main reason why fight. But a character that is not even a little bit of a thrill seeker wouldn't have done all that my character has in the game (which is many more stories than just the MSQ). The expression of my character after choosing option 1 was priceless, like showing a whole other side of her that she keeps hidden even from herself most of the time.

It's been very interesting hearing your take on the end because though my character and I both don't seek that thrill that he was talking about, the scene still worked for me and there has been something about the encounter I've been trying to piece together since completing it, trying to find what about it I enjoyed. I think a lot of it has to do with how Zenos as a character has changed. Though not much, he still tries to address you as 'you' not the hero and expresses disappointment if you choose the second option, citing I think that your character sees it as a duty to kill him than any personal desire, he still concedes combat is the only thing he knows and the only thing he can give. Though in the end it's what he desires and in a fashion what he gets, I think a part of that offer is that he hopes he can grant it back to you/your character. It's at once a selfish offer and one I think he still hopes you can find meaning in too. The thing that really helped me sort through some of my thoughts in this though is what you said, Venat, your character, and him are the greatest "travelers" in the game and he and Venat are the only ones who ask you if you've found fulfillment, found meaning in your journey. Realize a lot of this has been me reflecting and rambling, and I still can't put my feelings on it into words, perhaps still haven't fully worked them out myself, but thank you at the very least for sharing your thoughts on the end and the philosophies you've gotten out of it. Wonderful vid and only ever wishing the best, brightest, and plenty of reasons to smile!

Zenos helped us defeat the end-boss. I think that's a justification for letting him have a little fun at the end. He's basically a good guy if you consider how vital he was to saving the universe. As much as I'd hate to say it. He's done more good than bad in his life. That one final moment helping with the end-boss was more than enough to outweigh everything else he's ever done. So as a WoL who isn't a jackass. Agreeing to the fight was my way of paying him back for helping out.

We had to fight Zenos in order to resolve his character. Everything was resolved and being “the good guy” we empathize with everyone, including zenos. Especially when we have a Goku/Freiza moment in the final fight. We repay him in kind by giving him what he wants. Plus it prevents him from going after our friends again. And it was honestly an epic struggle

Never expected to get so invested into an MMO again

Anyone knows what Gshade presets he’s using? Is it still the same as the one from his Gshade vid or did he tweak it up?

Even you are not pay attention enough, but there is a word that Zenos speak out clearly of who we are....Adventurer. Adventurer who wandering all over the Etheirys, to solve, give, take, fight, etc. Win or lose, pain or joy, smile or cry. Still, don’t forget that who we are as our first identity, Adventurer. So....”That’s I can’t deny” choice is the most appropriate for me. Not that I want to fight him to death or anything, like he said I just can walk away. But why not I rackless for this BS and be a stupid a bit and do whatever I want like an adventurer I am which I didn’t done in a long time (cause WoL is our title)

The beauty about Zenos is that everyone has a different interpretation of Zenos. It's the kind of open to your own interpretation ending that some movies end with. I hated Zenos in Stormblood as I felt he was a one-dimensional villain of the day character but I got to understand him more in EW about his intentions and what he represents.

I selected option 2, and I was very happy with it because it summed up how my understanding of who WoL is. “Think what you will, but I cannot allow you to leave.” WoL protects, and his journey of finding greater and greater challenges prepares him for those bad days which are full of suffering and sorrow. Zenos can try to find common ground with us all he likes, and even if he might be correct about a few details, what he thinks ultimately doesn’t matter. He’s too dangerous to be left alive. It’s an almost cliched point of view, but that’s how I feel.

While I get what you're saying about Zenos. You can't go comparing it to something like ME. Simply because the ending to that game is solely depending on how you play and the options you choose. So much so, the decisions made in the first game effect you in the third game. In 14, everyone has to end up at the same point, to fight the same boss and have the same ending because it's an mmo and we need people at the same point at the same time, so we can have this dungeon, this trial, raid, etc. I get they say it's "an rpg first". But it physically can't be, because if it was then we would have one person sided with Metieon. Or one person joins Garlemald. Or one person has Zenos join our team to fight Fandainel. It would be too all over the place. So again, while I understand where you're coming from, the story has to be linear to a fine point. So all in all, you can't really compare a singular game like 14, to an entire series like ME.

In my opinion, Zenos clicked with me the whole time because this story didn't shy away from what he was. He was simply a 99% nihilistic rival-driven antagonist. Absolutely nothing more, nothing less. They understood that and just leaned as much into it as they could. Nothing else mattered, only fighting you until the very end of his existence. And to be honest...at first my WoL would have chosen Dialogue 3. She would have been so done with everything, she's so tired, she's so emotionally drained, she just wants this last insane bastard to just die so she can go home and friggin' SLEEP. And then Zenos broke out the most armor-piercing question anyone could ask her. She asked her opinion *as an adventurer* and not as the Warrior of Light. To that...she really CAN'T argue with him there. She does everything for the greater good and absolutely makes sure she's doing so without falling into the good intentions trap, but in all honesty, her being the one that's constantly taking on harder and harder challenges with most raids being presented as flat-out optional that she CHOOSES to engage with? Zenos broke her. In that one moment, she couldn't fight his ordinarily aggravating words any longer. He spoke the truth and rather than fight it, she was basically going "You know what? I can respect that. You still have to die, but I actually respect you a bit for figuring me out." He broke her. And she responded in kind by throwing everything she had at him. Also, to be honest, the Mass Effect thing wouldn't have worked. You were going to fight him, period. Nothing you say would have convinced him otherwise. You clearly *never* wanted to fight someone so irredeemably evil, but you have to for the sake of everyone. *He's not going to just let you leave by verbally denying him.*