I've Gone Back to 165mm Cranks (Fast at 41) 

Hi all, I know there are a lot of people out there hanging for the Elves review. Next Wednesday I will publish a video where Neill Stanbury gives his thoughts on the geometry, which is worth noting. Then, I expect to have the review LIVE by the 16th or 23rd of March (at at latest). I know some people won't be happy with that timeline, but I'd rather not rush things and test the bike properly. Stay tuned! Cheers, Cam

I switched to 165 last year and noticed such a difference in comfort, less knee pain, seems easier to spin.. hips felt less strained. It was a great moment for me.

I think the main thing that has allowed people to go to shorter cranks is the gearing available now. When a 12 -27 cassette with a 39-53 crank, you needed the longer crank arm for leverage to pull the gears. When you can now easily have an 11-34 (maybe even a 10-36) rear cassette and a 34-50 or 34-48 crank / chain rings. Its much more feasible to go to a 170 or 165 mm crank arm. I'm 71 and have seen many renditions of gearing and crank arm length over my 50 years of riding.

I'll share my story: I live in Peru, paid $250 here for a retul bike fit back in 2018. With exchange rates it's a large sum of money. Was never comfortable, but could produce a lot of power. Then the pandemic hit, and back to square one as I was no longer that flexible. If it wasn't for your videos and Neill's advice, I would have not realized my seat was 3 centimeters higher than it should have been, among other things. Most youtube and Instagram fitters, as well as reddit tell you: just get a proper bike fit mate. You and Neill are helping tons of people like me who cannot afford these services, by giving us enough general information to understand our bodies and experiment within safe limits. I cannot thank you both enough. Cheers!

I have finally made my move from 175 to 165 watching all your videos. I must say not easy to get new cranks this size. But one thing is immediate I couldn't believe is how more fluid my pedal stroke is. I have a 10+ yrs history in road cycling on amateur gran fondo level, recently recovered from cancer and not only this 165 mm cranks but all other things Neil explained improved my position on the bike and gives me motive to start again and ride more.

I always regret moving to 175s, which all the riders were on back in the day. It caused no end of hip and lower back issues. Now on 170s, and could probably go lower.

I just love these discussions with Neill. Thanks for the great content

Hi Cam - there's always so much to learn from these videos with you and Neill. Thanks a bunch for covering so many aspects of sitting on a bike.

Another great video its so informative for us all young and mature RCA & Neill really pushing us all into bike fit awareness i said it before NO one is producing such in depth cycling videos as you are mate great stuff Cam love this vid thanks.

Thank you for all the info you and Neill share👍 This helps me a lot being over 50, new to cycling and having issues after a possible bad bike fit.

This is great insight. I started cycling last year at 41 and hip and overall flexibility is my biggest issue.

Great! Thanks! Still waiting for my 165s to arrive.

I’ve been running 165mm cranks on my road bike and mountain bike for years. Im very happy with them!

going a bit over 2yrs with a 165mm crank, I also have a hip impingement so it really helped with reducing stress and pains, but also with the cadence and having a better pedaling technique. Gotta say that your bikefit video together with Peak Torque's video on short cranks were the main basis to make that change, so thanks a lot for tackling this kind of theme, and also bringing an expert like Neil.

Great vid Cam.. I remember moving from 172.5 to 170 and the change for me was awesome straight away.. may try shorter in the future 👍🤩🏅🚴

Love these bike fit videos.

Great content Cam, very helpful.

Great switch! Is swapped to 165mm a few years ago and never looked back, just awesome 👍 I do hope however the industry catches up, its hard to get your hands on a set of crancks....

I'm going to have to seriously look at changing over to 165. I had minor back surgery for a left leg sciatica a few years ago and am experiencing a little discomfort on long rides. This might be the answer. Great video. Keep them coming. 👍

Thanks Cam for that valuable information! As I am building my “forever-bike” this year and I will have a professional bike fit (before buying the components and after the build) I will pay extra attention to crank length and see what they are suggesting. To be honest, up to now I am hardly riding in the drops, due to the length of my pedal stroke making me feel uncomfortable and not efficient at all! Cheers mate and keep the good content coming 🙋🏻‍♂️

Glad to see you’ve changed back to 165s. ( I changed to them when you did, and never looked back!). Speaking of track cyclists, back in the early ‘70s, when I moved from Wisconsin back to Southern California, I started spending Friday and Saturday evenings at the Encino Velodrome, totally rapt in the world-class bicycle track racing that was happening there. With the exception of the pursuiters, all of the competitors used 165s. This applied totally to the match sprinters, but also to most of the riders in the points races. (Match sprinters, often coming to complete stops during a race and using, necessarily, the technique of track standing, found the 165s an advantage, or even necessary, due to the inclination of the banking. With the longer cranks, they would occasionally clip a pedal on the surface of the track, with disastrous results!

I come here purely to listen to Cam laughing behind the camera. I jest! Great content guys - keep it up!

I went from 172.5 to 165 on a new bike build and it really made dialing in my fit much easier and has made things more comfy on the road.

Been on 165mn cranks for awhile now after bikefit suggested them no complaints here. I have had a total hip replacement in both hips at the ripe old age of 44. Definitely helps with the hips.

You are still just a young boy! (OK, I am 66). I have been riding 165mm for about 3 years now. I used to race as well. It made a huge improvement for a few reasons. One, my knee is trashed but to the point I needed a hip replacement but due to motorcycle accident as a teen, I cannot have one. Due to the short cranks I can still ride. My back is now close to parallel when I ride now. I now ride with so much more ease. With me, the bottom of the stroke is MUCH better. I am significantly faster. All my riding buddies noticed it as it was obvious. Thanks for the video and I especially appreciate the health aspect you mention to your hip.

When I swapped 172.5 cranks to 165 some years ago. I also raised saddle and moved forward at first, because I read about it from internet. But then I did not have any power. In my case I had to lower saddle some millimeter instead and move aft also. But I never had also any professional bike fit done on my bike. And still haven't. But improvement was so great. I feel that after I changed to 165mm cranks I don't need any professional bike fit anymore. My diy position on bike isn't ideal, but it does not need to be ideal. I can ride comfortably enough now. Best upgrade I made.

Awesome information! This helps a lot! Thanks!

At 6' 1" tall and 48 years old, I decided to try 165mm cranks last year and haven't looked back. An added benefit not mentioned is slightly more ground clearance when pedaling through turns. I also see that Shimano now offers Ultegra and Dura Ace 12 speed cranksets in 160 mm versus 165 mm for the 11 speed. Hmm...

I have the same problem although I am running with a 167.5 crank length and still uncomfortable. Very informative video.. Thanks!

Industry standard for MTB is 175. Went to 170, moved the seat forward, cleats moved forward, and got faster with less pedal strikes.

I'm literally contemplating this and I see your video. Awesome.

I have word by word the same experience with transitioning from 172.5 to 165. After festive 500 2021 I suffered from discomfort in my right hip for almost nine months. After the same event in 2022 and riding it with 165mm cranks there were no issues (touching wood).

Watching back over these while attempting to try to self diagnose the reasons for my most recent niggling injury and ever worsening discomfort over time, I'd be really keen on giving this a try. I'm sure I have impingement in my right hip, and it's funny how good I felt on someone else's track bike last week and how crap I felt getting back on my road bike. I didn't know it at the time, but the track bike had 165s on it. My road bike... 172.5.

I've watched your fit videos (and like) what Neill says. I've been struggling with fit/saddle issues for 15 years now on and off and have read everything under the sun that I can find and have had 3 different professional fits before I gave up on them. Over the last 2 years I switched from a 172.5 to 170 and now 165. As a sprinter I just cannot recover my max WpK - I've gone from mid 14's, to low 13's with the 170's and now mid 10's with the 165's (basing power off of my Neo 2T, but is in alignment with my P2Max and Garmins). I never have been a spinner, per se, but can hang around 90 outside - heavy muscular legs take more effort to spin it would seem. Indoors I'm usually in the 70-80's. 164 is the calculated perfect crank arm length per the published formula for my inseam of 76cm. The smaller cranks seem to feel better and allow me to adjust my fit but I don't think it is quite as black and white as has been made out. Part of my long standing issue is saddle shape and I have a feeling the SMP might help, but there is no way I can put one of those on my bike! ("It is better to look good than to feel good" - Fernando) Wished I lived in Aus to give Neill a crack at my issue...

I rode with 175 mm cranks for at least 15 years, until I bought a new Trek Emonda last year with 172.5 cranks, and immediately noticed I didn't have hip pain. It's amazing what a small difference in in crank length makes!

I thought you moved and stayed on 165 for ever. I switched to 165mm after watching your previous one, made a nice difference.

7:30 You look so much more comfortable and natural in this side-by-side. Great shot!

My 165s arrived last week. I am looking forward to seeing how they affect my sustained power output when doing Merckx style TTs

WOW, this is great information and highlights what a good bike fit can do for your performance and comfort on a bike. Looks like its time to go visit the LBS and get fit for the upcoming season. Great video Cam!

My road, xc and enduro bikes, i changed from a 175mm to a 165mm crank. I am 5ft 7 and in my 50s, I think the shorter crank helped me reduce my knee pain; however, I could easily tire out my leg muscles. I felt this when I am doing my routine indoor cycling and road cycling using my road bike. I do not have any gadgets to measure my leg fatigue muscles using a shorter crank but for me the leg thigh muslces easily tire out when I use a shorter cranks. Good video here! Thanks!

When I tried really short cranks 150 and 155 I had to put the saddle more forward so I could lift my legs through on the upstroke. Putting the saddle back according to that knee over the spindle thing made it difficult to spin up a high cadence. The historical belief of pros as far as I can gather is not to change anything when the crank length is changed. They just used to leave the saddle where it was. My experiment proved to myself that it's better to do the opposite of what the magazines used to tell us.

I’ve made the change on my mountain bikes (170 > 165) and it’s been much more noticeable than I thought it would be. My knees definitely feel better and I can spin up a lot faster without as much strain.

I also ride 165mm. I believe the use of 165 on the track is a practical reason also due to the curvature of the track in the velodrome, and so shorter crank length means less chance of contact between track and crank.

You've talked me into it. Changing to 114mm cranks now. I'm older and left hip is beyond impingement stage. Watching Neill spreading his knowledge is always amazing.

I'm a strong advocate for short cranks too. Riding 105 R7000 160 cranks for 3 years since my transition from 170s and I've never ever once contemplated going back to them. Possibly one of the best upgrades I've ever made to my bike. As for height, I'm just slightly shorter (175cm). For me, I raised the seat by 1cm but I moved it back my 3mm felt great.

Additionally, 165s are an advantage in criteriums because they allow pedaling deeper into corners (and pedaling earlier when exiting corners) than with longer cranks!

In the last week I've changed from 175mm to 170mm and the difference is quite staggering. Wasn't sure if it was all going to be RU-vid 'Hype' but feels a lot more comfortable and seem to be easier to push out a high power.

My trek slash came with 175mm cranks. I swapped to 165mm to reduce rock strikes but found it’s pedalling nicer with them to the point where I did a 100k race on them with flat pedals and didn’t have any problems.

Great video. Consider cross training with inline, nordic XC skiing and K-1 on water. All this helps a great deal. SpikeBoarding Skiing is handy and will cross train exceedingly well.

Just two days ago I switched from a 175 to 165 on my road bike and from 170 to 165 on my mountain bike. I have not been out yet but I have been a bit on my roller trainer. The difference is so much improved on my leg balance, and my perceived rate of exertion seems to have reduced. I feel this change is truly a positive one.

I was riding 172.5 cranks and bought a 165 at the similar time you released your video a couple of yrs ago. What I noticed was I was quicker up hills, but I was never able to be as fast going down hill or on the flat. I personally felt it was harder to get the same amount of torque on 165 cranks. I’m gonna try 170s in the future as I sold the 165s.

I've been suffering from one side leg numbness and shoulder pain for about a year now. Being 176cm on a frame 54 bike. The bike came stock with 172.5's. I got a bike fit at my LBS and they adjusted some things, slamming the stem lower, other saddle type and also moved the saddle position lower. However, the issue still remains. It's less prevalent, but sure enough 40-50km into the ride, my right leg (or at least foot) goes numb. A day or so after, i have some mild low back pain, and sometimes a sore knee. All calculators online point me towards a 165mm crank, based on either body height or inseam (80.5cm). So i bit the bullet and ordered a 165mm crankset, here's hoping it improves my situation, as according to my bikefitter, al my joint angles are within the optimal range...

I switched all my bikes to 170 from 172.5 and all my mountain bikes which were 175 years ago because of knee problems and it just made sense to me that it would help. It did, and I was immediately more comfortable. In the town line sprint there seemed to be a little detriment. But the comfort was way worth it.

Man I wish Neil worked in Canada.. Love his expertise

Obviously, the main reason that on track bikes the cranks are shorter, is because you don't want to hit the track on the banking when driving slow. And it allows to reach more comfortably higher cadences (which is an advantage on a fixed-gear (i.e. track) bike, to increase the range of speeds you feel comfortable with at the rpm needed for that speed). Honestly, I don't feel such a big difference between my track bike (165cm cranks) and my regular race bike (172.5cm cranks). Surely, on the track bike I can hold a slightly higher cadence for the same power output a little longer, but I don't feel a particular advantage or disadvantage in my power output from that. On my race bike, I'ld rather just choose a bigger gear for that reason instead.

Two years ago I switched from 175mm to 170mm, and the expereince was so good that I immediately ordered 165mm cranksets for both my bikes, figuring that even shorter would be better yet. Yes, greater comfort, many more saddles work for me than before, and the change cured most of my asymetrical hip issues, ditto knee pain. Perhaps placing an international ban on cranks greater than 165mm would bring world peace? Oh, and I'm a 'tad' over 70 years old.

Been on 165s for about 6 years, gets kind of expensive having 6 bikes, one of my bug bears when buying a new bike is dealing with 172.5mm cranks every time, it's the reason that when I bought my TCR I bought the model that came without the power meter. I never noticed any change in cadence but I naturally spin faster than most that I used to ride with anyway, but one of my bikes is a single speed so quite comfortable pushing big gears or spinning.

Any chance you could have a video on setting up your Bonts? Great content on your channel.

I have been so curious about making this type of switch. But, where I ride there's flat with a little bit of rolling hills, but what we have mostly are long climbs that are steep.10-25% gradients with often 300-700 meters (1000-2000 + feet) of climbing often with no flats. Just straight up. I'm currently running a 36 in the front with a 28 in the back for maximum low range. I can try to put a 34 in the front, so I'd have a 34-50, which I've read many people do. But, going to a 30 in the rear would make for such a funky spacing for the rear cassette. Point being, I've held off because I'm concerned about the leverage losses with the shorter cranks. When you run out of gears it's just you and the lever. Unless I were to go to a 12 speed system which I don't really want to do right now, I'm not sure it would be as simple as throw on some shorter cranks and get on down the road. Anyone else have any experience with this type of situation?

I am 5ft 7, was riding172.5s and had a lot of hip pain in my right hip. Went to 160s and it is night and day. I am no longer crowded at the top of the stroke, and the pain is gone.

Changed to 165mm 2 years ago. Increased my cadence. Didn’t experience any big loss of torque either. (172.5mm VS 165mm is only about 5% difference in length anyway)

Great to see the improvement! What size and model of BMC is that orange one?

Awesome video Cam. I really felt this episode because I also have a similar hip problem as yours (btw I'm turning 32 soon). I've been using the 172.5mm crank for a very long time but now I've switched to 170mm on my new bike. I'm planning to do a proper bike fit before getting it on the road to see if there'll be any improvement. What's your opinion on the 170mm cranks? Could you also explain more about how you're dealing with the skin fat or fold (don't know exactly how to call it), I'd like to get rid of mine. Thanks

A really interesting topic... I am running 175mmm cranks since ... ever... but I am really thinking of switching them out for 170 or even 165. Never thought about these drastic possible changed on the bike with it.

I have been riding 175mm for many years. I was shopping for 170 or 172.5 for my new build. I found an amazing deal on some NOS Ultegra that came with 175mm cranks. Oh well!

Cheers, great video. I wonder, however, if some of these benefits can be achieved with only raising seat height.

Im 187cm tall and i went from a 175 to a 170 and it made a difference in the slight hip pain i had..now i spin in the drops without a problem

Hi i'm 171cm 61kg 45y old rider ( i ride 5/6 times a week). A few weeks ago i recieved my canyon grail xs. This bike came with 165mm cranks, it was from the beginning clear i was less tired in my legs afther my long Z2 rides on this bike vs my canyon ultimate (170mm cranks). (almost same setback and sadlehight to pedalaxe). First i thought it was the more shorter stack but when i looked at my powermeter data (did a test both powermeters between my suito trainer) ( i saw that i had for the same heartrate, 5watt more avg power with the shorter cranks vs my 170mm bike. Also i was able to put more power from my quads into the cranks. Now i have also 165mm rotor Aldhu24 on my roadbike and even on lower rpms i put more power than on my longer cranks at he same bike and powermeter (power2max) vs hrf, can train more and longer from the first week i switched to the shorter cranks. Even i can spin at lower rpms with more power and my legs feel more fresh. can ride longer and easyer with my body and arms flat on the hoods (remco evenepoel style).It's a total gamechanger for me

165 for the win! Would've tried shorter ones but unfortunately Campy doesn't make them any smaller!

I tried the 165mm crankarm fad, turned out to be a waste of $200. I'm not exactly tall at 5 feet 7 inches and around a 30 inch pant inseam, but after a few weeks, went back to 170's. Even had a re-fit on the bike for the 165's (waste of $300 in total) - pedaling dynamics were weird, my right front foot wanted to point toes down at the top of the pedal stroke (like my foot/leg wanted to stretch out a bit more forward but it obviously couldn't), and the overall position didn't feel right. It also hurt my lower back more with the tighter pedaling radius (my body is suuuuuuuuuuuper picky with bike fit). The only positive was that it was more comfortable in the drops due to the lessened hip angle. Cadence stayed around the same as my 170's. On the flip side, I tried 172.5mm cranks about 12 years ago on one of my bikes, and those didn't really work either.....cadence dropped off and hip angle was way too closed (but climbing felt better). 170's it is for me.

Great video. Just to let you know that Chris Hoy maximum watts were closer to 2500w 🙌🏻

Hi Cam, wonderful video, thanks for that! Did you notice a downgrade in acceleration and peak power with the 165's? Thanks in advance! Cheerios!

How about a detailed video on saddle and fit solutions for men who have prostate issues, you may include advice on way type of bib pad is best too

Still happy with both 160 and 165 on my road and gravel bikes (both down from 172.5).

I finally decided to take the leap. With an 80cm inseam on a 172.5mm crank arm and never managing to feel comfortable I took the leap to 165mm crank arms. Just completed a 90km ride on zwift and never felt so fresh. Also noticed I was able to hold higher w/kg far longer without any strain. Thanks so much for this great content. I would go as far as to say this has revolutionised my cycling.

One day , Cameron , you will learn about osteoarthritis and cycling and how it can limit you more . I have to learn to cycle with it and it taints my enjoyment of the discipline . I am 52 and ride with an over 50's social group now . I don't ride as often as my mind wants to . I ride with friends in my sleep figuratively speaking . I started to develop osteoarthritis mid 2018 . I have spurs in a few distal finger joints ( four of them ) . Light action trigger shifters are a bit hard to find in any brand . I have to use older versions to address this . I have a good quantity of Sram twist shifters of all grades , MRX , SRT 300 , 400 , 600 and up to Attack and Rocket versions . I can''t ride my Pinarello road bicycle now as road buzz causes pain after half an hour or so . The mountain bike in road configuration ( gearing and tyre selections ) is less painful but I need to have a break at least once an hour . I haven't been for a decent ride for over 3 months now . I am waiting to have pereneal surgery .

I can relate to being 41 :) A couple years back I moved from 172.5 to 170 cranks and the change is much bigger than the 2.5mm would've antecipated.165 could be worth trying now, as back then there were no powermeter options ...

yes... on the track. I use 175mm. Every time I go to 170mm, performance suffers. However, I tried using pedal extenders and this removed any hip issues.

When transitioning to shorter cranks, it might be beneficial to offset your gearing and cadence, spinning faster on cogs that are 1-2T larger than before.

Just wanted to say ,i also switched to 165 from 172 and 170 this year and can say..wow so much more comfortable getting into lower position with a bump up in cadence and at the end of ride i don't feel all warner out/sore .Feel like i could another round. But leave it for the next day ride.

I'd like to give this a go as well. Unfortunately it is a bit expensive. As someone who is primarily a runner and am able to gold well over 400watts while running I feel like the 300 ish watts I do on the bike could be improved by mimicking the higher cadence I'm used to while running.

Dam, i just got a new ultegra groupset with 172.5mm cranks.. love to try the 165's. I'm also middle age with some niggles here and there. great video thank you. I didn't see any discussion there about a person's height and crank length though, i'm assuming with this video that it doesn't matter. I'm 6 foot tall...

I'm also a convert from 172.5's (for 6 years) to 170's (for 18 months) and then ultimately 165's (for about 6 months now). Never going back! I'm 178cm tall, 84cm inseam.

I’m glad you came back to this topic. I’ve been thinking about going to 165’s for a long time. Curious your bike size is the same as mine. How tall are you ? Thanks Cam. As always, good stuff.

At 183cm height I dropped to 165's first time you explored the topic, they've been great. A more stable pedalling platform, 50/50 balance and some improved PRs on strava that have stood for several years. Have felt climbing to be a little more demanding from a leverage viewpoint but I've adjusted the gear ratios to encourage a higher cadence 👍

One thing you can see most was the amount your upper body rocked on the longer cranks. Seems hard to believe that with a higher seat and it being pushed forwards your overall height is still lower. You learn something every day

my old bike had 172.5. cranks. I was getting a sore right hip after longer rides. Went to 165mm after watching the shorter cranks vid,when I built my new bike, No more sore hip.

Hi cam. Great video been using 165mm. So far so good. What stem length are you using? Im 5"10 riding cervelo r3 sz 54 with 120mm -10 stem

Hi Cam, this is quite interesting and I am considering trying 164mm crank. What size bike do you ride

You will never beat my friend's daughters . They are 21 and very quick as they are very young and have been at it for 10 years .

I use fit kit as Steve Hogg and Paul Hillbrick have done for most fitting tasks .

Spd platform pedals, cleats as far back as possible, mtb shoes, lower saddle 👌 Shorter cranks 👌

Thank you for the great video (as always). I would like to go for a Fit to Neill so badly but its quite a trip from Europe :( Do you think 165 will be a good length for me? I am 189 cm in height but my flexibility is very low, I can't touch my toes and always fighting with tight hamstrings. Also, my handlebars are as high as can be with the stem flipped upwards. My bike is size 58 it comes with 172,5 cranks which worked ok for now but I will change them now for others with a power meter. Thank you.

I wish this fitter was in NYC, I would visit him in a heartbeart! I need his input

Hi Cam, I’m sure you’ve given it somewhere but I can’t find it. What is your height and inseam measurements? Thank you for the great informative videos.

Having same hip pains etc. so will try 165’s and have new bike fit to see if this helps, I am a little older, well lots at 65 so may not give me the same results

Yeeepp. Went from 172.5 to 165 back in 2016. Took a week or so to get used to it because you have less leverage applying force through pedals. It's essentially like making your easiest gear a little harder. Once I got used to it and got a little stronger so I didn't need as easy gears as before, I never looked back. It did wonders to my comfort on the bike.

ty!

That’s quite a big jump in crank length. Have you tried lengths in between those 2 sizes? Have the shorter cranks been a problem on long climbs? I’m 69 and don’t race any more. I have only a gravel bike with two sets of wheels. I currently ride 172.5 and have ridden 170’s in the past. I’ve been thinking about going back to 170’s. I don’t have any problems with hip or knee pain.

Neil is the rain man of bike fitters So fluid with the assessment analysis and adjustments.