@@timoheinrich8763Floating point formats (i.e. 32 bit audio) can actually go above 0 LUFS as far as I know. But I don't know how that would work with lower bit depth integer formats, which they were probably referring to, either.
Ah, the Loudness Wars. I still remember the victims, their torn speakers burning there on the streets, my dad barricading himself in his studio, blocking the entrance with a 30 channel Mackie mixer before the Germans bombarded him with a 160 dB aggro dub drum n bass remix of Centipede by Knife Party. We never found his remains.
"Ah, you think loudness is your ally? You merely adopted the LUFS. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't hear the dynamic range until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but deafening!" -Dan Worrall
Maybe for people who don't fully grasp the cleverness of this track.... Normally you can't go above 0db in a digital recording. 0db is the max. The only way to go over 0db real loudness is when your samples are in such a way that the extrapolation (the rendering / the restoration) from digital to analogue takes the peaks higher. In that sense this track is not just very funny but actually quiet an achievement. You will have to do some really weird things with harmonics and maybe even aliasing to achieve this. So I don't just take my hat off to @Dan Worrall for this incredible funny video but even more so for the technological achievement to create a track with a real loudness that peaks over the top like this... wow man... just wow....
Well I don't understand how it's hard, all you gotta do is render to a 32 bit wave file instead of 16 and increase the volume of things without distortion and it can pass well beyond 0 db, for RU-vid though I don't know what they do to compress and process the audio so however he got it onto RU-vid is probably the genius part
@@ProdDJD As I understand it when rendering 32 bit float wav files the loudest output is still 0db. The extra headroom is just for recording purposes. This means: if you have a recorder with a AD converter that records in 32 bit floating point you don't have to worry about the input level as it can represent signals up to +770 dBFS. That means that "physical clipping" is a thing of the past in your recording. You can record "way to hot" and still the signal is captured flawlessly (without clipping/distortion) in a 32-bit wav file. When rendered for output it will still not exceed 0dBFS. So if your "play" your 32 bit float samples it will clip at 0dBFS... The 32 bit float representation allows you to scale it down to prevent the clipping from manifesting itself. @Dan Worrall maybe you can shed some light on this?
My legal advice is: Send it! Get media coverage in the real world: "Old fart wins loudness war and fries thousand of speakers worldwide." Yep, you totally got me, I leaped for my volume knob.
This is the only time a "millennial snowflake" jab has actually landed, I can't stop laughing at this masterpiece of pettiness. We don't deserve you, Dan. xD
@@Revoltyx a graphic designer is paid to do the design cuz they’re the expert on design. The person paying for the ad wants it to be more noticeable, but having no clue about how design works they complain that the text isn’t big enough. “It should be more noticeable!”. It’s not always about how loud or big something is. But hey, since they’re paying for it, they designs often get compromised and that’s why most ads you see are illegible trash. If my explanation still doesn’t do it for ya, just Look up ‘can’t you just make the text bigger’ graphic design memes on google, that might do a better job explaining it than me lol
@@ambrosiajam8008 I think that’s why logos are getting more & more simplified, like “forget that realistic logo with shadows and gradients, we want our logo to stand out“ might as well just crank up the contrast until the only colours left are pure white and black.
@@ambrosiajam8008 I remember in the 2000s i did a thing (maintained some of their tech) for a publishing company which commissioned and received web designs from another agency. The website was supposed to host... written articles, like normal print publication, lots of text that should be clear and legible and easy to read, little imagery, typical text length 500 words. But the design had the text mocked up as lorem ipsum in 6px (not even pt) font in light grey on white background. So uhhhhh yeah some professionals, and yeah WE NEED THE TEXT BIGGER wouldn't you think.
the loudness war was the great war. now you’ve begun the cold war. everyone is going to stock up on mixes that can destroy sound systems. but no one is going to release them unless someone else does first. but they’re all aimed at each other, ready for release with the push of a button.
This just shows you don’t have a clue about sound systems. You will most likely destroy a sound if you try to volume match the quiet dynamic master with modern loudness and your system doesn’t have loads of extra power
As a live dub reggae sound engineer in the '90's I remember a house engineer at a major venue being really confused as to how I was getting his rig to perform the way I was. Tons of headroom with loads of volume in the venue. I showed him my tricks. When I returned a couple of years later he had tuned the approach so well for that venue that he was probably the most sought after engineer in the region. This is not hard for anyone who actually understands how waveforms interact. My daughter sent me this video. She's learning these tricks for herself through your videos. Thank you from us both. "Beat that you little millenials" indeed... I promise my daughter will (though she's younger than a millenial, so we may need to skip a generation)
I get similar responses when I dj, how I get such legibility in the mix and definition on the drop. Its primarily headroom, you can't gain match effectively if your redlining and pushing into the limiter, dynamics suffers the most particularly in the low end. Its always an issue when getting on after someone has been abusing the signal path, I have to accommodate the time for peoples ears to adjust.
I'm lying in bed here, losing a battle with my ongoing clinical depression, but I laughed out loud and probably for the first time in years when the video hit 3min. It hasn't cured my depression but it was fun.
Hey, As a person with depression I hope you are able to enjoy life again someday in the future - wishing you all the best truly from the bottom of my heart.
Glad you were capable of laughing and having fun! I think those are the kinds of things that keep us all going in our own unique ways. May I ask what you think it was that made you enjoy the bit?
As someone who makes dubstep, one of the most infamous genres for its loudness war dick-measuring competitions, I appreciate you calling these people out for being full of it, because they are. A depressing amount of people, even some of the most prominent ones, share the idea that mixing/mastering is a stylistic choice and there's no objectivity to it, it's all subjective. And while I can agree that someone may subjectively like the sound of music pushed as close to 0 LUFS as possible, I can objectively say that using absurd amounts of distortion to achieve that (as really it's the only way to) will just fold up all your elements to clash in the high end, which I can objectively say human ears have a tendency to be very sensitive to, and will probably induce some form of hearing loss or tinnitus eventually.
Sometimes some mild distortion on various parts of the mix, and sometimes even a bit of clipping can make transients sound crunchier and fuller and make things work nicely in a mix, but many people especially in EDM take that 'sometimes' to mean 'distortion = better' and ruin good ideas with a shitty boosted mixdown. Rant aside, thanks for making consistently top-tier production 'deep-dives' that thoroughly explain DSP in a way that's easy to digest, even if it might only be helpful for the people who are open to listening.
Distortion will result in multitude of harmonic frequencies and because of how our hearing is organized, we don't necessarily hear those high frequencies appear any louder but instead, overall clarity of the mix is sacrificed. Then someone cranks the volume higher because they want to hear all the nuances of the song.
Actual dubstep from around 2005 to when dubstep died (2010), wasn’t about loudness at all. Digital Mystikz would master their sound for the DMZ dance in Brixton and yes 40hz would be mixed loudly and deeply but the overall mix was average in volume.
being an "old fart" myself, I thought this was pretty damn humorous up to the point I realized you didn't win the war with the "youngsters", you set them a goal.......
Yea that's the point, ain't no teen getting past that with a clear master like that. :) Hopefully this means they just give up and master to were its not distorting.
It's okay. Some of us yougsters are pretty tired of excessive loudness. I always say that if everything is loud then nothing is loud. Loudness perception is relative. If a track is uniformly loud, you can just turn the volume down and now it's not loud. But a dynamic track will still retain the relative loudness within the track at any volume. I often get blank looks from people when I try and explain this basic concept.
Not gunna lie, that sounds great. In the "middle fingers up" way. EDM producers saying there's an art to making things sound good when you throw your headroom out of the window is the most backwards thing I have heard.
I'm extremely new to production and it just confuses me. Though D&B and other genres where as far as I can tell it's all or primarily about being up close, hard, and punchy aren't what I'm interested in right now. What got me interested in production was deep, swirling soundscapes in a mix. Especially when it's balanced so that whatever else is going on won't try to put metaphorical daggers through my eardrums when I raise the volume to get a clearer listen to the wonderful work someone has clearly put in with designing synth pad patches and/or adding effects that fill the soundstage and make it feel more a like living landscape than just a room (be it big and echo-ey or a sterile recording booth) of some sort where someone's arranged all the instruments.
nothing else I have ever listened to has ever been this loud. I normally have my volume at a set level that is tolerable to watch everything, and I mean everything, but this is different. this is uncomfortably loud even at that volume. I don't know how you did it wait, it gets louder..?? - ok, you got me, but I was genuinely curious as to how loud you could really go. my ears actually have a slight ache after that
Hey sinc. The loudness here reminds me of the beautifully mixed and mastered minecraft video of yours I recently discovered. I understand you're here to perfect your skills.
Good to see you here Paul, I enjoy your videos. That said, your comment is all over the place: surely you're Godwin, as you're proposing the law, and Hendrix is Hitler. Is that what you meant to say?
I had a dream about Jimi last night, thinking about how he got such expressive sound design coming out of a guitar with just 3 pedals (live often it was simply Fuzz, Wah and Univibe into a cranked amp). He was an extremely dynamic player FWIW, I think his pushed amps had more to do with sonics and range than just pure loudness :)
I indeed grabbed for my headphones, Sir. This was one of the most exciting and scariest moments I've had of late. And please do release the song, I believe it opens up the discussion with a nice example.
Ha you got me! Why? Because I checked the "Stats for nerds" early in the video out of curiosity, saw it was -0.1dB (so -14.1dB-LUFS-I) and that made what you said about about being able to play the end part really loud and not fall foul of YT's loudness spec, _completely_ plausible. So I admit, I reached for the volume, just in case! 😅
Stats for nerds shows how much the audio has been lowered in order for it to reach the youtube standard, which IS -14db LUFS. In this case it says -0.1db so it's actually boosted by 0.1db. I knew it probably wasn't gonna get that loud in the end because his voice was pretty loud throughout the video. Sometimes people make the audio in their videos pretty quiet just so they can insert their loud intro/outro in case they wanna promote something. So he technically could have shown us the full loudness of the song for a couple of seconds, if he lowered the volume on the rest of the audio :)
@@asd2640 I don't think that's correct mate, sorry. The -0.1dB in stats for nerds means it's -0.1dB _below_ the -14dB-LUFS Integrated spec; if it was above the spec it wouldn't have the minus and simply read 0.1dB. Volume attenuation is shown as the percentage next to it. So for example: *Volume / Normalized: 100% / 54% (content loudness 5.3 dB)* ...would mean the loudness is 5.3dB LUFS-I _over_ the -14 spec, and 54% is the automatic volume attenuation, it is turned down to 54% volume so it plays back at a similar volume to other videos. (100% is where you have the volume slider in the youtube player.) I have tested this in my own videos, and here is a source explaining it, where I took the above example from: productionadvice.co.uk/stats-for-nerds/ 👍
@@RoganGunn But you're basically telling me what I already know except... It seems that RU-vid doesn't normalize quiet videos?? Why would they do that? This video is -0.1db quieter than the standard so if it's untouched it's not a problem it's barely noticable. But if another video is at -7.0db it won't get boosted? Why does the -14LUFS standard even exist if there are such big changes in volume between videos. What basically happens is if it's too loud it get's reduced to -14LUFS, if it's too quiet it just stays quiet I guess? Woooww
@@RoganGunn I know how the loudness control is SUPPOSED to work. But I thought certain songs/videos had reduced or increased loudness compared to other videos because of a glitch. I still find songs that are very loud and haven't been turned down at all, it says 100% / 100% . Most of the songs from 2007 till around 2012 haven't been normalized. But also some videos from 2015 and 2017 are really loud, it just doesn't make sense lol.
@@asd2640 Yeah, that's correct, whilst we audio guys think of normalising as boosting peak audio _up_ to a certain dB level (say 0 or -1 dB TP or whatever), the streaming services only apply normalisation in the downward direction, to prevent some videos or songs from being crazy loud. You notice this on RU-vid when something has been produced to TV broadcast standards, (-23dB LUFS-I, which would show in the Stats for Nerds as -9dB) and comes out very quiet. Same goes for Spotify; their latest loudness spec is the same as YT iirc, -14, but only tracks that are louder get attenuated. Anything quieter does not get boosted. Heaven knows why not! 🤷♂️ As for the glitch you mention, that could well be happening. I have noticed that when something is over the spec, and is attenuated, it can sound almost distorted, or brickwall limited. I can't tell if this is YT's player causing this, or perhaps the original audio was peaking? This is YT and I wouldn't be surprised if their implementation is a bit hit and miss! As such I always do YT videos to a couple dB below their standard, usually around -3dB, so about -17dB LUFS integrated. It may be slightly quiet but not by too much. Audio only work (i.e. music) I aim for -14dB LUFS-I on the dot, so it's always in spec if I need to upload to Spotify or similar. I keep the absolute True Peak to -2dB, never more than -1dB to prevent aliasing when converting to lossy codecs. The effect is it has a pretty good dynamic range as a result.
I seriously wouldn't even be mad if someone was to blast this beast at a club. It sounds awfully horrible and equally amazing at the same time! What a time to be alive.
I've never seen Dan pull an "Oh yeah, really?" moment. It's like this makes up for the thousand times he didn't feed into the nonsense. So worth it. And kinda invented a new genre simultaneously. Love it! Thanks, Dan. I'll buy the FabFilter Compressor now. I get it. You win. 😆
You are an amazing teacher, thank you so much for all that you've given to the people, mixing quiet is the way 100%. I used to listen to a lot of loud music when I first got into production and I didn't even know it was mixed loud until I listened to the raw file, and after learning so much from you, all of my current inspirations all mix/master at quiet levels (no higher than -8 peak / -15 LUFS avg) and all the music I listen to now are some of the most beautiful pieces of art I've ever heard, JUST because it's not insanely loud. I even started mixing quiet and my stuff has sounded 10x better than when it was loud (you can actually push stuff louder when the mix is not already slammed, not like I would need to do such a thing anymore but it's nice to know). I can't thank you enough for your content being pushed in the algorithm you deserve a larger following and you actually know what you're talking about and its incredible. Thanks again, I hope I, you, and everyone can continue making amazing music. Cheers!
Well, tbh that's only because most people have no explicit understanding of the fact that they prefer louder music. Or a good notion of what "loudness" means versus the ubiquitous "volume". It's just not something you have to engineer to the extreme, he said it all: good preliminary mix, a nice composition - and then some rudimentary mastering, that's what gets you there 95 % of the way and nobody is really going to notice a huge difference unless you really go ham on your music.
Music isn't about music anymore, it's about getting attention. It's been for a long time, now. You can't even get anywhere without a Music Video and huge social media following anymore.
I loved everything about this video. Thank you for all your fabfilter tutorials and sticking to fight the good fight against the loudness wars (by winning it)
dan, you‘re a master in you league, which is great, but even greater is your sense of humor (: this is fighting talk :) you are so funny and a +lufs track is ridiculously funny as well :) thanks and take care
I know this was a bit of a throwaway video but it really demonstrated how Dan's technical understanding of audio engineering, coupled with his ability to put it into practice, coupled with his understanding of the relation between the technical and the artistic side of music, is totally and utterly on a different level to pretty much anybody else I can think of. When I see people arguing with him, or insulting him, I just shake my head at the futility of it. You may as well be screaming at the wind to stop blowing. And no, I'm not his mum. But, Dan, if you're reading this, time to come in for your tea!
Dear Dan, since I've descovered you on RU-vid, I became your fun, fun of your knowledge, ability to easy explain, musical feeling and unbeatable humor!!! please keep doing your great work!!
It's not everyday that a RU-vid video brings me to tears (of joy). You sir are one of a kind. Thank you for your educational approach and magnificent sense of humor.
I‘m completely with everyone fighting for the return of dynamics in mastered music. Dan, don’t get mad, that much too loud synth sound tickled my ears in just the right way. I kind of like it. Your example should have had terrible artefacts, preferably in the high mids. But you made it too un-annoying…
I loved the video Dan! Honestly I never thought that this loudness is ideal, and I'd never master my song to -2 or even -3 LUFS, it's just too much of a sacrifice. My followers keep asking me "how to be louder, louder... why isn't my song loud enough? Why does it goes full mud when I want to make it louder etc..." So I had to make that video telling them where loudness comes from and how they can keep relative clarity.
Producers argue who's dynamic range is smaller like it's some weird metric of manliness or something... It doesn't matter. Everyone's earholes are only yay big, you know?
@@JohnSmith-pn2vl 'Proper' electronic dance music existed long before the tools & even the digital format itself existed. There's a real lack of appreciation that what works on a sound system is very different to what works at home and as a result, a lot of heavily compressed tracks don't work as well in the former. If you have a DJ that likes to redline the mixer, an already distorted & compressed track has nowhere to go, it's just how much mud is added. DJ's will often attempt to match levels and if any are sensible, they' normalise to a LUFS rating as it is very easy to do these days, this makes the quieter tracks punch more than the louder ones. This is why so much old dance music holds up so well in clubs today, they were created for clubs, not for home listening like a lot of dance music is today. It's a pointless arms race amongst people who aren't 'proper' fans of the genre who's prefer even deeper subs over filtering to increase headroom for extra loudness. Loud EDM is for the 'fans' who can't get into a club, it's for kids.
I really love and benefit from every Dan Worrall video. I always learn something even if it's not what Dan is claiming or even intending to teach. Thanks Dan! The best part of this video is the legacy video-game sound in the "music" that is used to demonstrate the over 0dB master. Love, love, love it!
Brace yourselves for all the "How to get your mix as loud as Dan Worrall's" videos, lol. Though just from a technical perspective I'd be interested as well, because despite the loudness it was still rather clean.
Good LORD I've just listened to the Spotify version with audio normalization off, and you definitely weren't bluffing lmao. No other song on Spotify has even come close to being as loud as yours, bravo. I also definitely agree with your statement on mixing for loudness at the cost of fidelity. If people like a song, they'll turn it up themselves; DJs have a knob to do that for a reason. Great vid, Dan!
As one of the people you’re referencing from the comments of the last video, thank you for this one. You’re a legend and have proved your point However, I think this over the top loud mix sounds amazing so I’m still not convinced
You like it, despite the fact that you're hearing it attenuated by ~18dB to match RU-vid's loudness target. Ergo, its the production that matters, not the loudness.
Hi @@DanWorrall, these two comments made me thinking: maybe you disproved yourself a bit with this track. With that positive feedback you showed, that it is possible to create a great sounding track, without any dynamics at all. Maybe the lack of dynamics can actually be some sort of design feature? So maybe it does make sense to achive high LUFS, because of the lack of dynamics? But I'm also wondering, how the track would sound without ducking and voice over? Because of the voice over our ears get some sort of relief, you build up some tension and you introduce real dynamics. How would our ears like this without the breaks they get while you're talking? Would they get tired quickly? Would be nice to have an A/B comparison. Sincerly, Zadagu
Thing is, as someone into glitch, noise and punk, this sounds pretty awesome - because at a certain point the distortion turns into a really satisfying texture, almost ASMR-like. Rhythms and pitches are still audibly separate, if very condensed. It’s basically noise music at this point, but that can be a fun sound at times. Arca, qebrus, Squarepusher and Death Grips are all artists who fit well with this aesthetic. However as a club mix? Yeh this would be overkill - even the noisiest, craziest, and most mental distorted music needs some contrast and dynamic range. But I must admit, it was a bloody fun track to hear on headphones - having adjusted the volume accordingly ;)
You're a genius . I wasn't triggered by your videos instead I took what you were saying and applied it to my music and it has improved so thanks and thanks for this bit of Sonic humour :)
I've been watching your videos now for quite a few years Dan and have enjoyed every one of them. This one though, would have to be a favourite so far!! Seriously cracked me up!! 😁😁 As a sound engineer with a particular passion for mastering and a great love of dynamics, I truly appreciate this video and the way you use your unique humour to make your points. ....and, erm.. I must admit that as REAPER was approaching that marker, I did have my fingers on the volume knob!! 😄 I thought the ensuing silence may have been REAPERs master mute being triggered for a moment!
Absolutely loving this, too much to be exact. And even more the whining of these commenters who (even after this masterfully precise, easy to validate and measure, and quite hilariously definite come back) can't still understand the point. It just so beatifully examplifies and magnifies dunning-kruger in flesh and blood. But, I guess this is the day and times, when everyone with internet and a keyboard can be an expert. Oh well. Keep up the exceptionally good work, Dan! Loving it
I find most tasteful, good contemporary music isn’t insanely mixed/mastered insanely loudly. it only tends to be commercial pop/edm stuff that’s smashed to pieces
How about taking a well mixed dynamic classic track (say, from the 70s) and destroying it this way, to demonstrate what we would have missed out on if this had been the norm back in the day?
It needs a certain type of specific sound that can survive that sample modulation without sounding obviously bad if I'm not mistaken. Thats why he had to kind of invent a new genre to do the demonstration. One of his points was that the production and sound design plays a big role in both real and perceived loudness.
To be fair over half the DJ's I've seen working Security are tone deaf halfwits, spinning knobs to a fake set. One idiot had two samples of Industrial and would trigger one sample then the next then... let them run a few bars...then as this happened he was doing all these fake volume slides and HPF sweeps while nothing was actually happening. I've seen hundreds this bad.
This was my confrontational introduction to Dan Worrall (yt algo loves drama posts). Now that I've watched dozens of their videos (and spent hundreds of dollars at FabFilter, sigh), circling back round, I can appreciate the dynamic range peak that this video constitutes, all the more.
Holy F$%k!!!! You didn't just "win" the Loudness War, you took the beaten, and battered, and broken corpses of your enemies and mounted them on your wall as trophies for all to see. Wow.
