@@ChapterMasterValrak and @Hearesy , you both missed the in my opinion strongest unit in cost/effectiveness way (and im playing theese chaps since 20 years): Heavy support squads in a rhino with illastus stormcannons.....10 of theese plus a castellan got 45 shots...thy can drive in the rhino, jump out 2 inches and shot 24 inches than...every unit will die in a hail of bullets filling up the air with the potencial to kill like EVERY unit in the game due to Rending 5+. also if you use the rhino wisely its a movable cover. ;) your welcome...
Among the many things I like about this channel is the sound quality and volume; very easy on the ears, no straining to hear a low volume presenter. I also like how the breakdowns include pointers on not sucking the fun out of the game for opponents.
The Hammerfall Strike Force is a very cool allied detachment, especially when combined with a Recon Company (or Imperial Army in future) for a very thematic force. Templar Assault also works nicely as a small allied detachment for another force, especially with Sigismund as their HQ. Another cool thing with Sigismund is that he gives +2 to Charges, which seems to include The Best Defence, making that advanced reaction way more likely to go off.
Love Dorn. Straightforward, no tricks, he's just meant to wade into enemy units and shrug off the beating. Toughest boy on the battlefield. He got lucky with WS. I only think it's so high because Sigismund is WS 7 and they can't be evenly matched.
but read the siege books...he got some tricks....he beat alpharius(not by being faster but by a defensive trick), and also beat deamon fulgrim...I MEAN DEAMON FULGRIM!!!!! he just regenerate himselft tho but that got nothing to do with rogel just break fulgrims defence and chop him in pieces. he just not such an super cocky prick like the lion for example. so almost nobody know about his skills. also, its totally ok that a primarch fighting not so well than an astartes, look at lorgar for example
@@Keevanus alpharius is a joke in straight-up combat. He's never supposed to be in a normal 1v1 fight. The fight only lasted that long in Praetorians of Dorn to make the book's final scene interesting. He didn't beat fulgrim so much as fulgrim got bored. The Lion is indeed an arrogant bastard with a personality disorder. Sigismund could smack the shit out of Lorgar, but it's ingrained in the lore that Sigismund is not on the same level as Dorn. If the two of them had the same WS it'd be bullshit. No one talks about Dorn's skills because he doesn't even talk about them "Deeds are my words." But, even though Dorn is the best primarch, Jaghatai is the coolest. He should have the highest WS in the game. More than the Lion, even. It should be Sangy and the Khan tied for highest WS then Fulgrim.
@@archaoneful I'm talking about comparing Primarch WS stats in the Horus Heresy game. Dorn is also the genesire for the Soul Drinkers. Successor chapters 10,000 years later are irrelevant.
@@NapGod idk about “Fulgrim got bored,” Fulgrim never seemed bored in the fight and actually seemed really angry, and Dorn still slapped the shit outta him
Might be worth mentioning that fafnir raan is quite possibly broken. When he’s attached to a unit of phalanx warders and the stone gauntlet he gains a 3+ re-rollable invulv save.
I need to tell you how impressed I am by your videos. Even when you talk about why something isn't the best, you explain how it could be used in a decent way. I never feel like you are being negative even when critiquing something. I also appreciate placing fun for both players ahead of everything else. It is great and all to play a cheese army and have fun, but eventually people stop wanting to play you and then the fun is over. I like competent armies that are both fun for both players, but have a good chance of winning if you play it right. Please do this type of video for the Sons of Horus (and eventually every legion!). I watch all of your videos from start to finish and some of them I watch multiple times. I can't say that about every Heresy channel out there...
The foot slogging force is now more viable than the Choggorian Brotherhood. I played WS all last edition, they have not done well with the new edition changes to their special rules and bikes in general.
@@Dwilson1282 ah that's a shame! I prefer armies with lots of infantry and love White Scars lore, but it'd be cool to switch it up and use more bikes now and then!
Small spoiler, you're gonna love Javelins. As the other person already said, Scimitar jetbikes and Spatha Outriders are pretty underpowered. The fact they don't have either T5 or a jink save is quite frankly baffling. Javelins as mentioned earlier, the Kyzagan speeder and the sole good Jetbike unit in the game atm, Golden Keshig.
Loving these. It’s great to see the capabilities of the legion and what’s strong and what’s not to know what I’ll be getting into when playing against them. Looking forward to seeing this deep dive on other legions
Forgot to mention the Huscarls, or was that because they were in the PDF and not the book. Also putting a Techmarine in a Warder squad you can get a 3+/3++ (ReRollable)/plus a feel no pain if you have a Apoth
Keep in mind that a unit of retinue cataphactii termies with the shield and solarite power fist has a 3++ and WS5 On top of that you can put the praetor with the +1WS Vs Traitors in their unit making them WS6 xD And if you really want to have fun Tartaros termies get the same but can still run and sweep xD
Fists can also use huscarls, which can be taken in units up to 10 dudes, get stubborn, and only get instant deathed by str 10 if they get charged, plus they get deepstrike base, for only 50 points more than legion cataphractii base.
Imperial fists is just playing heresy on easy mode tbh. Strong primarch, ridiculously strong named duelist, strong wlt, ridiculous wargear, ridiculous row, their legion trait is braindead easy
Love your videos and Overall I really liked your views but Having used Dorn in quite a lot games now I do somewhat disagree with your assessment of Dorn and his abilities in Primarch fights. I've found that he has become quite the Primarch killer because of how he plays (especially against the heavy hitting Primarachs. Dorn does have Reaping Blow not rampage so can get 7 attacks against a Primarch if in base contact with another model. What he does is reliably grind his opponents down rather then rely on the Butal rule or huge amount of attacks. A lot of Primarchs need 5's to hit and 4's to wound (the 4+ to wound is also good because it can force other Primarchs to use weapons against Dorn that they normally wouldn't use in a Primarch fight.) which seriously reduces the amount of incoming wounds, especially from opponents that rely on the 'Brutal Rule. Whilst Dorn hits back on 3's (sometimes 4's) and wounds on 2's against most of his brothers. Although he doesn't have 'Brutal' on 'Storm's Teeth' he does have 'Shed' and I've found on average in my games that he is wounding with more attacks then is opponent is in return and Dorn's larger wound pool means he can take more of a beating. It's actually quite funny, in one game I Watched Ferrus (who can potentially one shot most Primarchs) literally bounce of Dorn. He couldn't consistently get through Dorn's defences even with Forgebreaker, while Dorn's attacks we reliably getting through. The Same thing happened with Vulkan, Horus, Fulgrim. Potatorabo!(?) and Russ. The Lion was the only Primarch (I've only played against him once and I've not played against Angron yet) who was able to narrowly take the win but it took 4 turns and he in return was down to one wound (we kept the game going as both Primarchs were still alive at the end). What I've found is that Dorn uses option number 3 when in Primarch duels. While most fall into 1 of 2 categories, IE relying on the Brutal rule or having huge amount of attacks Dorn on the other hand tanks the hits and reliably grinds his opponents down.... He's even scarier when backed up by a squad with Solarite gauntlets!
Good summary; basically Imperial Fists didn’t change much at all between the two editions except maybe get a little better because of new mechanics and some new rules.
So hear me out... -Imperial Fists mirror match. -Sigismund fights a unit of Stone Gauntlet Warders. =Warders roll their Invulnerable saves once just for fun, and then rerolls all successes and failures. 😂
nice overview! Could have been nice to talk a little but more about the wargear , could have been worth a section on its own. I feel it's one of those legion where it's almost a new unit when you can add stom shields to termis, or have a supped up power fist. Specialy the shield it make those termi play quite differently almost like other legion special elite termi units. with the deep strike as well as you said.
Fists feel so rigidly compartmentalized. Like warders are too expensive outside SG, outside Templar Assault templar bretheren are expensive kamikaze missiles (why shouldn't I take some veterans instead?), hammerfall strikeforce will likely be my default fun army build, but even then half the fun of playing firsts is the immersion I get from my troops riding out with my armor turn 1 while Flight of the Valkyries plays in the background. It feels like the book wants you to go completely all-in whichever direction you choose to the point where the legion specific units are terrible (in my imo) if you aren't using the RoW that gambles everything on them.
Jup, i agree. IF lack good unique units if you dont go with a certain rite. Its also very limiting strategically. I think veterans with nemesis bolters backed with terminators w vigilshields, dreads and basic predetors will be great.
looking forward to a SoH one of these. B/c as it stands, they feel kinda not really unique enough. OR there is a good possibility I just have no clue what I'm doing.
I started Inperial fists cause Sisigmund and Fafnir Rann are my favoritcharacters. But I'm scared to play with them because I worry I'll get hate for running a fluffy army
You wont get hate for running a fluffy army, because any army can be fluffy. Fafnir Rann doesn't have to lead units in Stone Gauntlet. And if he does, they don't need an apothecary, or to be huge units. Or you dont need multiple units. You get your fluff without being over the top. Same for Sigismund. He doesnt need to lead a Death Star for you to use him. You can run these things no problem without getting hate. Just dont fall into the trap (or kid yourself) that your army is "just fluffy" when the fluff has become an excuse for running something serious :)
I dont think the rules really cover it, but by precedent of majority toughness rules I think its an easy ruling to say it does nothing. Still, very good in a challenge!
There are quite a few things throughout the legions where one legion just gets a better version of another thing. Those reactions are a great example, ultramarine axes, cenobium greatswords. A competitive game this is not, but no gw game really is so *shrug*, this is why I’m not playing competitive anymore!
The phalanx warders plus the stone gauntlet is really good, and you’re right it’s not a great play experience🤣. I’ve taken them a few times and unless my opponent has built a list to deal with them they sit on an objective the whole game and never move regardless of what’s chucked at them. For me allowing the characters to get the buffs combined with the Reroll invun is too much. It’s easier to shift dreadnoughts and some primarchs off the board.
Doesn’t sound like you’ve had the best experience and I’m sorry to hear that but I’m already seeing players come up with plenty of viable ways to tackle this. MWG have an Al vs IF bat rep where the AL comfortably handle this simply with lots of bolters and a couple of deep striking units. For sure it’s both a pretty strong RoW and extremely fluffy - so you’re going to see a lot of it - but it’s def not the end of the world.
IF are OP as it stands now yes. Dreadnaughts and Phalanx warders in Stone Fist are rude. Sure, the Warders are countered by volkite effectively, but the combination with Contemptors/Leviathans is the real kicker
@@Keevanus no they don't, but they cover the weaknesses of the warders very well. Decently cheap and durable heavy weapons platform, good for taking out heavier units and planes because of it's acces to that targeting array.
I dont think thats particularly synergistic for fists, any more than dreads are good for anybody. I actually think fists dont *want* dreads as much as they do assault cannon, autocannon, and lascannonon heavy weapon squads, preferably with character backup, to stand behind all thise warders!
I think that when you put all of the stuff IF get together you get easily the best legion in the game. Which shouldn't come as a surprise given that they're the poster child for some reason.
the reason is that they are THE most successfull legion besides the Luna Wolves (HH Book 1) till the Ullanor crusade (after that they get called back to terra and other take thier place). there is a reason daddy called them, there where the ultramarines of the crusade era
Can you precision strike into and out of challenges? If not, sigismund can be pretty easily avoided by the warlord since he has to challenge and accept challenges.
@@Hearesy also, so in your experience movement reactions are weak? I’ve heard others claim it’s the best one (and the biggest HQ’s have eg sigismund, abaddon) - mobility is king.
All reactions are good. But movement phase reactions are very situational. Great for avoiding some things, like rapid fire weapons that only just made it to range, templates, making charges harder, etc, but the ranges have to be right ir you have to be able to get the whole unit out of los, etc. Its just much harder to do almost all of the time.
Not looking forward to facing the IF guy at my lgs, running Dorn, Sigismund and 10 TH/SS Tartaros Terminators in a Spartan at 2000 points is genuinely terrifying 🥲 EDIT: Pretty sure its Stone Gauntlet too? There were two 10 man squads of shielded power armour marines in the game i saw him playing last week, so yeah, seems like it'll be a lot of fun for one of my first games 🥲🥲
@@Hearesy I was thinking just spamming graviton templates so nothing can move, but all that volkite would probably work too lol. Add some nemesis bolters too and I'll make him pretty sad I hope. tbh I'm more worried about the terminators then Dorn, all those tough wounds to chew through, blegh. At least no primus medicae! And yeah, certainly not *fun* but at least it looks nice on the table, he's a pretty good painter 😅 plus, silver lining is that I'll learn how to play relatively competitively and ruthlessly pretty fast to beat stuff like that, lol.
I think that, if your opponent doesn't care about you having fun in a game, you can always just ignore the mission and create one of your own; like, "I'm going to get this Tactical Squad to the other side of the table", or "I'm going to try to take out that enemy squad with this squad of mine".
@@euansmith3699 yeah not a bad idea! I just wanna kill Dorn lol, would feel more like a win at that point. But then with only the two scoring units I might be able to squeeze out a win if it isn't a killing mission! Just gotta get that beginners luck.
I've been struggling for aesthetic direction in kitbashing my IF chaplain, but I can't wait to stick on in a big block of warders with his Ld10 and giving everyone Stubborn and Hatred(everything). I'm of the mind that warders should be maxed out to 20 models per unit in SG considering how difficult they are to shift better to take the discount on more in one unit than multiple units of 10. If they've blown through your 20 man block squatting the objective then theyd've likely blown through two 10 man squads as well but thats just reckoning I haven't done the math.
All good points, but id still be wary of a 500-600+ point unit that can be pinned by a librarian or just an unlucky roll, tied up in combat by any dread, blocked by a rhino etc! Maybe a more manageable number like 13-15 to be safe?
I feel kinda bad because the army I’m building it using 60 phalanx warder and vet sniper teams with his arks and autocannon heavies with leviathan talon support and other vehicles lo
@@Hearesy I honestly built for the love of guys with shields I again I thought it was good but like you snipers and volkite are very effective against and pinning is key so I’m always dropping points for vexillas to make them stick around just abit longer
If its built for the love of guys with shields are you running it outside of stone gauntlet? That would be a good way to make 60 not overwhelming and use the models you love.
@@Hearesy I love thought about it but it’s kinda hard to run them with out the stone gauntlet but out side of it I usually would run them as vets with pride of the legion
