In Defense of Infinite Combos 

I think one more modern aspect of this conversation is spectator engagement. Melee ice climbers have a banned infinite grab and I support that because its so damn slow especially compared to the pace of the game normally. It's not like they were oppressively good (at a high level) even, I just value fostering spectatorship to continue the growth and health of the scene as a whole. It's also kind of boring as a player to have to wait like 40 seconds to die and move on, so much so that people would sometimes pause (a violation of the competitive rules) so they could just take the penalty and resume playing instead of waiting it out.

This less of a defense of infinites, and instead more a defense on nonsense. Yes, players are willing to put up with any nonsense so long as it's infrequent enough. In fact, it's precisely the infrequency that generates hype. Moment 37 wouldn't be as hype as it was if it was just tech everyone has already seen before regardless of it's execution difficulty. Infinites generally don't fall in that category. If you wanted to defend infinites, you should discuss the merits of such a system in the game. What does it provide to both players in terms of their enjoyment of the game, and ultimately whether or not it's worth committing their time in mastering? You'd have to explain the appeal some players have to ToD games like Hakuto no Ken which is a widely accepted kusoge. The way I know infinites are bad game design in general is by taking it to the extremes. What if instead of infinites, you died in one hit if you got hit with a particular launcher. On the other end what if an infinite did 0 damage, but just wasted time? Would either of those situations be good game design? Is there anything in the middle of those two extremes that would make infinites more engaging and good for the game? I think not.

thought it was math infinites! but then you changed the title and now i'm bored!

I love HNK because it's so much bullshit

It's definitely the duration of infinites that makes them so egregious. Losing a character sucks, but being forced to sit there for 30+ seconds watching your character being killed, with literally nothing you can do about it, has been enough to make people in my old groups quit entirely. It completely eliminates interaction between players and makes one wonder why they shouldn't just play another game. I remember when Skullgirls was still getting its IPS sorted out and had a big spot in EVO. Top 8 was literally just the developer apologizing while everyone hit 30+ second infinite combos off of any touch. And then the game lost a significant amount of interest afterwards; almost dying out completely before the New Character voting kicked in and Squiggly was released. So, it's not great for spectators either.

Context is also important. The faster characters die the less egregious infinites become: If everyone dies in two touches anyway, who cares if one of those touches was an infinite combo? There are a lot of fighting games out there that are basically just gunfights, whoever gets the first good hit wins, and infinites are just one way to further reinforce that.

I think the problem is the number of interactions in a match. Losing because you made 2 or 3 mistakes is incredibly frustrating because you spend more time watching stuff happen than playing.

I forgot the name of the game but easily the best IPS i've seen is where the scaling went into the negatives so you end up healing your opponent eventually

the only way to stop a bad guy with infinites is a good guy with infinites

I would've liked to see some mention of length being an issue with some infinites. What's much worse than a touch of death infinite is a timer stall infinite that the opponent has to sit through before getting to the next round (and doesn't even kill). Even if they don't stall out the entire timer, the longer length of some infinites is definitely part of the distaste players have about MvCI's Spider-Man reality stone infinite or wobbling in Smash Melee. Granted, longer combos in general tend to be unpopular; some infinites just highlight this by looking more monotonous.

I don't think the issue is with infinites specifically, but overwhelmingly optimal strategies that results in reductive strategies based around just fishing for that specific thing until you get it, which just makes the game feels one-note and uninteractive. Infinites just tend to be the main culprit in a lot of those cases.

And then Hokuto no Ken shows up as both a great example and the complete antithesis of this theory at the same time

i dont really agree with this one so much, i dont like infinites. but tbh i dont really like long combos in general? i prefer games with short combos like samurai shodown and fantasy strike and street fighter v

"It's not the infinite that kills, it's the super at the end." And the super by itself wouldn't have killed by itself, so obviously it was the infinite in reality.

Ive always been really interested about why Infinites are so popular in MvC but will set other fighting game communities on fire.

Timeout infinites that scale down to no damage and lead to "who will win when the clock finally expires? let's wait 80 seconds and see" situations are universally bad in my opinion. I cannot say I love all infinites when infinites like that exist, but I do like the others :) Generally, I think if an infinite would lead to timeout, competitive rules usually have some sort of rep limit in place, but that's really ugly and clunky, and external to the game itself.

I'd rather have a chance to make more mistakes than lose 1 50/50 and have to deal with Melvonius Bartholomew the third pressing a special set of moves ad nauseum until I eventually die from the one billion percent damage scaled infinite.

I think my favorite infinite in all of fighting games is Dudley’s infinite from New Generation. It only works in the mirror match, so as far as I know, it’s the only infinite that has no impact on game balance whatsoever.

Frankly for me it’s just a matter of patience. Balanced or not, having a tight action packed game of reads and pressure get interrupted by 10+ seconds of just not playing the game will never be fun.

Here’s a set of definitions for anyone who might be confused in the comments. Loop: A combo which revolves around utilizing the same specific move(s) multiple times. While loops can be longer than an average combo, they are not infinites outright. Ex: Sol’s Dustloop and Sidewinder loops. ToD (Touch of Death): A combo that can and will kill if successfully landed or unbroken by a combo breaker. ToDs can be a loop. Ex: Every character in DBFZ (to an extent) Infinite: A loop which does not end, and cannot be escaped from. Ex: Iron Man’s infinite, Ice Climbers’ Wobbling, Sako’s (nearly impossible) B.B. Hood combo, Tesse’s kicks from Waku Waku 7. While there are a lot of situations in which you can use these terms interchangeably, it is important to remember that they do have separate definitions. Don’t get caught lacking.

This reminds me when people found a new tech for Mai in BBCF that allowed her to cancel her stance and hepeat normal, giving her new combos with a huge damage without costing meter, my friends made so much drama saying that could be the end of the game and all, 2 days after that we forgot this because to this day we couldn't found single soul able to do those combos even on tournaments

An example of a touch of death I'm surprised that you didn't mention is luigi's in super smash bros. ultimate. Off of a simple throw he can kill you, but it only works at 0% (equivalent to full health) because then the knockback will be low enough for the hits to combo. To play around it people camp on platforms until the luigi player hits them so that they are out of % range of the combo. Contributes to luigi being one of the most annoying characters in super smash bros. ultimate.

"It's an issue with how we take normal language used to describe ideas ..., turn it into a negative buzzword, and in the process remove all the necessary context actually needed to give us an accurate understanding ... " This covers SO much more than games. This is the entirety of social existence in the current era. And I hate it.

"The Iron Man Infinite does not kill, the super after does." Y-yes.. but it's part of the combo? Effectively killing you regardless. The rest of the video's fine, but that's dumb take for someone so technical lol.

I am sorry but I can not see the appeal of needing to wait half a minute durning a match to be able to play again. Ps. ToD are also in the same category

The thing I feel like infinites take away is the competition of the game itself. The aspect of two people going back and forth trying to out play/smart/adapt each other. Infinites takes those aspects away from it. Which to me, is the best part of fighting games.

4:24 i instinctively chanted out "OH! OH! OH!" the second he snapped back

I love double snap infinites for a few reasons - as you said it's a huge factor around the risk and reward of calling assists, but I also like them because they tend to be short (bonus damage to assist characters and no damage scaling since it's not a true combo) and because they can't technically end a match. Multiple characters makes such a misplay possible, but also helps contain some of the punishment of that mistake. My biggest personal issue with infinites is I find them incredibly boring to spectate. Some are technically demanding which can be impressive, but my interest plummets quickly because they tend to take so long to execute. Shorter combo length is a preference of mine since losing my agency for extended periods of time is personally frustrating. We have different opinions here, but that's what a variety of games is for.

There's also timer scam infinites such as those in old Melty Blood versions

While I'm a fan of MVC games, I can only tolerate infinites so much. I don't think it would be good if a character could do an infinite from round start that didn't even kill and just stalled the clock, for example.

Another thing to consider is time. Alpha 3's infinites are so frequent and take so long it really kills the enjoyment of watching a lot of times. Or if someone is able to do the Chun or Abel infinites in SF4. The time it takes really takes you out of the game. Marvel 2 Infinites have undizzy and don't usually take that long so I'm fine with them

I don't care how situational a combo can be, I don't think infinites/touch-of-death have any place in fighting games outside the Training Mode. At worst it degenerates the meta/balance, but at best it still ruins the experience for newcomers getting stomped by experienced players while also giving off the wrong perception of the game to others less familiar with it.

"I like having a situation where I can repeatedly press a series of buttons and I just win in a multiplayer game." Any situation that doesn't have a response for one player is just a bad time. I get saying, don't completely overlook a game just because it has this mechanic though.

"If you don't agree you must be new here" The first game I ever played was street fighter 2 I HARD Disagree infinites are poor balancing outright watching a looped animation slowly eat your lifebar away sucks

"You might not even get the chance to get annoyed by it" the most passive agressive threat lmao

Infinites and ToDs also can be a lot more understandable in team games where you don't even lose to them, you're just down a character.

"Heavily patched games that are generally very flat in terms of character strength and weakness" is a pretty weird way to say "Games with good balance."

A recent example of an infinite that sounds way scarier than it actually is got added to Guilty Gear Strive in the december 2022 patch. Ky has an infinite that is very easy to execute!! But it's exclusive to Dragon Install And it can only be setup with specific, not very common hits And Strive's wall mechanics make sure this combo is technically not an infinite And Dragon Install Ky had more damaging combos than the infinite before the patch and still has them And after a while the infinite gives a lot of tension and burst to the opponent Really the one reason to use it is to set up wallslump oki I still saw people act like it broke the game and that it should be removed ASAP

one of the craziest "infinites" that is extremely wack but also mad entertaining to watch is Iron Tager's in Blazblue. See, BB has IPS that makes every combo drop after enough hits. But what happens if you don't hit them? Tager can magnetize his opponents and make them fly towards him, so if he loops his movement in a very precise way, he can just juggle the enemy around him, stalling the timer. It almost never comes up, but is such an interesting exploit of one of this game's myriad unique mechanics it remains a blast to watch

Infinites are acceptable only in single player context, not in multiplayer

I fully agree with the point of the video and love games with enough volatility for a discussion like this to matter (one of the few DNF Duel fans here) but I honestly am not a fan of style of the mechanical choices in Skullgirls. The Infinite Prevention burst lead to a meta of nearly unseeable resets and even as a big Marvel fan I don't like the double snap glitch being taken wholesale (but I generally think that SG's reverence for Marvel 2 is generally something that holds it back).

Lol I think the "you're not going to see this every 50 games" is a huge understatement. With that Sol combo in particular you're very unlikely to ever see that combo in a real game because you're never going to have 2 bars of meter, have your opponent in the corner, hit a counter hit AND have the opponent have full HP, much less all of these and they don't have burst. If you have 2 bars there is a good chance your opponent is at 50% health or less and it's much easier to swallow that someone killed you from 50. If all of these stars do somehow align and you die to it then you have no one to blame but yourself because there were so many options for counter play. It's the touch of deaths that are off of mundane hits that are the ones that get people up in arms.

I can only speak for myself, but while I would be okay with the GGST TOD you mentioned it definitely isn't because it's infrequent, but because, as you said, it's conditional. The victim needs to have already made at least three major mistakes to begin with to be vulnerable to it, and the person doing it needs to have ensured they have full meter. That does mean it's going to be infrequent, obviously, but it's not *because* it's infrequent that I'm okay with it, it's because it doesn't kill the player for making just one mistake, but several, and further it requires the killer to have full resources. Furthermore, it's short. All of *that* is the reason I'm okay with it. The infinites and TODs I would object to are those that are obnoxiously long and those that kill the victim for making just one or two missteps that would not be round-ending in most scenarios. Since this combo doesn't fit either of those criteria, I don't see a problem with it.

Infinite combos are the main reason why I personally mostly stick with Tekken. I find 2D fighters have these more common. And I don't find it fun as many fights come down to whoever gets an opening and knows how to pull off seemingly endless combos better. I get why others like it as it's extremely rewarding to pull it off but I don't like the gameplay less move tradeoffs vs long combo strings.

And then you have Hokuto No Ken, a game that has an infinite prevention system so busted that LeBron James could dribble his opponents to death.

I play fighting games because I like the mental aspect. If I do this, what will you respond with? Did I read this scenario right? Was this the best way that I could punish what you did? It's the feeling of making good decisions and being rewarded for them that draws me in. ToDs/Infinites remove those decision points from the game. Instead of having 10+ points that decide a round, you have 1. They make the entire game until that point irrelevant. What does it matter that I got you to two health and starved you all game? You memorized a sequence of buttons that make you win and hit the one thing that starts it. No, there is no "form of infinites" that I like. They're a lazy form of gameplay and they're boring to watch, perform, and be victim to. I don't play the lottery. I play the stock market.

I'm not fond of infinite combos in Marvel vs. Capcom: Clash of Super Heroes because unblockable resets make them too strong. Although, I don't have a problem with Sako's Bulleta combo in Vampire Savior because it's tough to execute, and the individual hits don't deal much damage.

To quote an old discord message of mine on my thoughts on infinites: • If it's melee where funny random character gets easiest W since unplugging P2's controller then fuck nah • if it's mothafucking mahvel 2 where most of the high tier cast has one then no • if it's mahvel 3 where everyone has one but they're optional and circumventable then righty-o • if it's like most games where they appear once in a blue moon if you play bottom 1 character against Mr Hurtbox on the fall off a building stage with stage 3 terminal cancer buff when the timer hits exactly 69 and you character is in the 73rd frame of his idle animation with your back to both corners and you have a Glock in your back pocket then does it really matter?

All infinites are touch of deaths, but not all touch of deaths are infinites. Otherwise instant kills from guilty Gear are technically infinites by the videos logic.

Can we get your thoughts on Kung Lao's UMK3 infinites?

0:40 LIGHT PUNCH

I hate TOD style shit in general, but interesting take either way

I still think DBFZ’s handling of Happy Birthday scenario’s is better than the Skullgirls infinites. Infinites having a use doesn’t make them an engaging mechanic. I like some infinites, sure, but I wouldn’t argue for them in many scenarios when there are better ways to implement these big damage situations.

This is cope. I do love landing good infinite tho lol

It kind of reminds me of how in chess when you see that you have lost the match you don't have to go through the motions of playing out the game to its inevitable conclusion you can just concede the match. Maybe competitive matches could incorporate a similar system.

infinites are just lame. combos should be 2-5 hits max, then have a read or two for extension then repeat

Infinites can either make someone rage or make someone go to sleep, usually i just look at twitter while they kill me.

I love it when I get bored of my RU-vid content, just keep refreshing the page in about to close the whole thing down, then I see a new theory fighter video. I always go "OOHHHH" before I click on it. I purposefully am not subbed to you so I can go and check every once in awhile and try to be surprised. That same kind of feeling you get when a cool package is supposed to arrive and you go check that mailbox everyday 😂

Great explanation on infinite and how they work in other games keep up the great work Love the videos keep pushing them out as much as you can

So long as it's not something that is annoying to behold like Web Ball -> Reality Stone, I don't really mind

Idc if you wanna be encouraging people to join the fgc, my man. It's great because it's small and exclusive.

Normally i have something slightly more nuanced to say But nah, i just dislike infinites, especially ToD kinds, i already dont like very long combos (Now the skullgirls infinite on assists is pretty funny)

I think a few other interesting discussions to be had that have a similar function are vortex characters, 50/50s, and the dreaded 2 combo mix of death. Vortex characters creating such an oppressive situation because of their ability to put you into the same situation over and over with 3+ open ended mixups isn't fun to spectate nor is it fun to be on the receiving end. 50/50s similarly aren't "fun" because you're basically guessing, but these mixups are sooo sooo prevalent in current games. Same with the 2 combo mix of death where a character has the ability to touch you once and if you guess wrong on the next incoming combo, die. However, I often see these scenarios given a pass, because there's some sliver of hope that you don't just die, but they still don't inherently create interactive play.

first time I saw an infinite on kof 02 i think in the wild i was so flabbergasted cause the dude who pulled it did it perfectly and was super happy and the dude who got it got so angry, he punched the other dude in the face. I was 12 years old, one of the best days of my life.

Hard disagree. They are objectively degenerate and INFINITELY rewarding. If you do not know them, you WILL lose.

MvC2 doesn't even have infinites, shouldn't be lumped in with games that do. The length of infinites are what makes them unhype. As much as I love Sengoku Basara X, it really needs a damage increase.

having to sit there for half a minute at times just watching your character get combod is not very fun. This doesn't just apply to infinites but extremely long combos as well. Oro's tengu stone combos in street fighter V feel more like you're watching a cinematic happen to you than an actual interaction between two players.

Honestly, I have kind found this video making me wanting to here more and kind of disappointed. I dont like infinites but I still hold out the philosphy that in the right game and the right people, any thing can work out well. This video made me feel wanting more for different infinites and talking about the pros and cons and I still believe there alot more that could have been said (you didnt even tough on the Danfinite in sfv and how they handle that). I am not saying the video is bad. But personally, I really feel like it glossed over the issue in a way that made me feel i only got a surface level understanding of it.

Why does Iron Man from Marvel get a pass but not Ice Climbers from Melee?

Infinite combos sometimes depend on the player's skill/speed/eye-hand coordination to execute them. If the combo drops, say goodbye to your balls.

yeah that's cool and all, but I'll stick with no infinites. They're a net negative for the game as a player, cool for spectators probably.

i like how much mental gymnastics this dude has to do in every video. I quit strive specifically because it felt like touch of death situations can happen. touch of death are just as stupid as infinite combos.

Love how you pulled up DBFZ when talking about TOD's. They are super common in high level DBFZ

It's definitely a bias af take. Hey, you like having no agency and getting T'OD. Have an infinite

One of the best parts of high level UMK3 and Trilogy are the crazy infs people have come up with. Definitely two of my fav fighting games to sit back and just watch. Shits hype.

😬 Do we count Iron Tager's Air Driver loops as an infinite because if so I'm all for it

An infinite isn't an infinite unless it's actually infinite to kill the character. Anything short of that is a loop. If it's broken by an IPS, burst, or escape, it's a loop.

I don't see how Sol combo is infinite when it requires spending more meter than gaining

I thought there was a difference between an infinite and a touch of deaths combo? Infinite being the combo could go on forever as long as it's executed properly and touch of death killing in one combo

Good luck finding friends who want to "explore how to land infinites" in a game they never play to see if they might be rarer than they think.

Oh yes, because it is so funny to not play the game.

My favorite infinite was diddy's banana trip on a platform in smash ultimate, it was highly technical to do, required a platform and the first hit of the banana to land, on top of extra things, and it got patched out instantly after some japanese guy won a match with it :/ meanwhile kazuya and steve can 0 to death you with a single opening (or backthrow you and block your recovery with a stupid block) with really easy execution and no real requirements others than pressing the buttons

Spectators watch an infinite and think that the players are just mashing whatever and killing in one touch. It takes homework (researching what the buttons are) and then lots of training mode time practicing timing windows. Only when you've gotten good can you attempt it in a match and even then it's probably going to take lots of matches to be able to pull off Dr. Doom's TAC infinite in all directions.

I'm actually surprised you didn't mention the point of them often taking 60 thousand years to kill because of combo scaling. I don't mind long combos and I don't mind ToDs, but if your game has combos that last so long that just "do one until timeout" becomes a viable strategy, I'm not going to be a fan. (I think it would actually be interesting to see a game that embraces infinites and implements some sort of reverse combo scaling once it's pretty clear you're doing one, so you're not just sitting there for 2 minutes.)

Speaking of Martial Masters, IGS's Alien Challenge is practically defined by its infinites and how non-functional it is, but yet theres this weird meta that's evolved around the game's issues and basically makes almost the entire cast viable when they otherwise wouldn't have. You should check it out :)

Considering I can't even combo in Arc System games I doubt I could ever infinite.

I grew up with karate champ and way of the exploding fist. Every attack was touch of death

Missing Link Mentioned 😃

I just fucking hate long ass combos

What does the real life infinite combo look like?

Stuff I expected to see in this video: - SFV Dan's infinite and its balance workaround - Ky and Gio infinites in Strive - UMK3 Reptile infinite

Tuff E Nuff has a ton of block infinites, throw loops, and some infinites. But the conditions make them all interesting. The block infinites must be done in the corner and do no chip damage, so if you’re doing one, you’re already winning. The throw loops are started off of big punishes or jump ins, and are interactive, since you can get hit or jump out to change how your opponent need to tick throw you. And infinites need to be done on crouching characters, and most only work in the corner. All of these change the way you play the game, but its really just to encourage specific play styles and interactions rather than making every interaction end the round.

When it comes to infinites I have a few issues, how easy it can be, how long it can be, and if it can't kill. If you have the skill to win in one combo more power to ya, but don't make me wait to lose. Like if you are hitting me and I'm not losing more life, sure you'd win at a time out, but imagine the infinite starting at 98 seconds, and the damage stopped at 78 and you're just waiting. Lastly if it's so easy that anyone can do it. Imagine in a world that your punch infinite is just 1 button and it has a room for error that is beaten by missing the 4 frame punch loop. If you're skilled, and display your mastery, cool...but you better not drop the combo.

Man I was scared, here I thought he was about to defend Marvel VS Capcom Infinite

Strive also has an infinite if the enemy doesn't have burst. But it requires Dragon Install KY and can't even go on truly forever without meter to sideswap because of the wall break system

How would this apply to a game like Hokuto no Ken? Some infinites are absurdly long, to the point where it is a viable strategy with the characters that have them to start an infinite not to kill an opposing player, but to time them out. However, the players and spectators alike agree that a majority of the game's identity comes from these infinites and ToD combos. I'm not disagreeing with your video by any means, I'm just curious how it would apply to something like the ArcSys HnK. Or would you say that it doesn't apply as well, since HnK is an unbalanced game (which it DEFINITELY IS), and what the fans adore about the game is inherently tied to its kusoge identity?

Even without infinites, I'll still complain about Akuma's throw range in COTA

Honey wake up, TheoryFighter made a new video

Im not gonna say that all infinites are bad but im not gonna ask for Wobbling to be unbanned

I personally think that there should be a random timer for any infinite. Like in MvC2 it counts down from 80, but they can switch it up to like 20 or 30. There should be a burst system like Skullgirls where the opponent gets hit back and takes damage when the counter goes to 0. It discourages the abuse of infinites. This way people don't have to sit through a lengthy infinite and keeps both players on their toes because they won't know when the infinite will be broken.