Coming from ST, what I find uninteresting about modern stun is that there is basically no possibility of shaking out of stun. In ST, and even 3s to an extent, if you mashed properly and fast enough, you could actually get out of stun. Now if you see a stun, you can basically let go of the stick
The interest comes from different routes being available in different situations. If the stun combo was available off of any hit it would just change the standard BnB. Adding scenarios where different combos can be used requires knowledge of those situations and reactions to them appearing, which is much more interesting then doing them constantly.
Flexibility paradoxically reduce choices into an homogenized optimal one. You need players forced to pick different choices so that each starter ends differently.
For most games stun doesn't really make you play differently. You either are or you aren't and are a status granted independent of resources. Almost never does stun factor into moment to moment decision making, and it's usually tertiary consideration after damage, oki, corner carry, and resource.
Its why i like sf6's take on stun, instead of getting your ass beat as a punishment for... getting your ass beat, you get your ass beat as a punishment for overusing your resources and getting pinned down in the corner/not stopping the DI
Even so stuns could still happen in the MK games too during a fight. If Scorpion and Smoke caught you in their spear/harpoon and reel you in you will be stun for a few seconds. Even in MKII if Jax hammer you with his close High Punch knock you will be stun for a while too. In MK3, if Kabal manage to spin you in his web you will be stun the same way. If Shao Kahn hits you with his hammer close range, you will be stun for 5 seconds too. Shao Kahn will use that few second to either taunt you, mock you, or attack you even more. So yeah stuns does happen in MK only rarely and by certain characters only.
And in turn made finishers really boring tbh. Even ignoring the fact they're all the same thing (gorey shock factor), I don't think giving you a dedicated execution time makes them all that special. Everyone just goes for them and that's that. There is nothing else to do, so you simply fatality. I much prefer it when they are instead a form of styling on your opponent, as something you have to actively go out of your way to do rather than following the safe and optimal play.
I have NEVER understood stuns. Ever since SF2 decided to have different sprites for the stuns (reapers, angels, stars), I've been confused about it. It is 100% a win-more mechanic.
Idk about part 2 but in 3rd strike those different animations mean different levels of mashing to escape. There's a Nica KO video I watched ages ago where he explains the difference and how to optimally mash out. It's a game changer never getting "win-more'd" when you get the black stun animation...unless he just juggles you before the restand ofc. lol.
Imo, stuns felt reaaaaaaaaaaaaallly good to pull off. Like it's not supposed to feel good to get stunned, it's literally a "win more" mechanic because it's supposed to be one. Not saying stuns and win more conditions are good or bad, but that's literally the point of stuns lol
Honestly, the concept of _you_ being in control of what hurt animation (stance) you're in while being combo'd in Karnov's Revenge is honestly more interesting to me than the overall conversation on stun mechanics itself. It's like ... like Smash DI before Smash was a thing. _Incredibly_ interesting. Thanks for showing this, I learned something new today
Dead or alive has a similar system, if u start trying to play like tekken the strings will seem crazy over powered, but u can read predictable strings snd counter even while getting hit, they added moves that cause stun state that crumples and allowed for unbreakable combos . It developed its whole psn meta.
@@Roman_the_black_catIf you're asking for what it's short for, DI means "directional input". Basically you can slightly drift through the air even while in hitstun by holding different directions
Smash only has stun if you get your shield broken, which is an interesting method of handling it. Punishing you for trying to turtle. Other platform fighters put you in temporary stun if you get your move parried, allowing for an easier/stronger followup.
I really like Xrd's take on Stun. Getting stunned by being repeatedly counter hit, the bigger the counter hit the more stun damage you take, really feeds into the games "big risks, big rewards" style of gameplay.
I do see the point of stun in SF2. With it being both a bait and an incentive for both parties to either play more risky or more defensively. In this game you don't get stun only after eating 2 jump-in combos but you can get stun even after eating 2 fireballs so it really makes you consider backing off if you just ate 2 pokes in a row. Also the combos are very fast and short (and you also die in a second) compared to modern games, so it isn't like SF4 or 5 in where a stun combo just leads to the other player gathering dust for 10 seconds as their character gets destroyed. Great example for an interesting stun combo also, I can see Karnov's take being pretty damn good for a more polished fighting game. Something with mechs maybe like Cyberbots in which some parts might be breakable or hitting them many times in a row causes the mech to malfunction.
I knew about the weakpoint system in Karnov but this is my first time ever hearing about stance shift. Kind of a shame Karnov is mostly only recognized as a broken game because the more I learn about it, the more creative and nuanced I see it is. While it's not as interesting as Karnov's take on stun, I do like when games give you the option to prioritize stun at the cost of damage. Like the Ryu Denjin example you gave but I also liked the way Potemkin's Giganter worked in old GG games. Stun stops being a win-more in those situations and becomes the player making a choice to forgo upfront damage for more stun to create unique set-ups and combos.
@@esthersmith3056yeah, its because the easiest way to balance a game is to make 24 characters that have the same weaknesses and strenghts so all you need to change is numbers, it makes it stale but safe...something modern aaa/aa games really enjoy being
Excellent video! There is so much hidden depth to Karnov's Revenge that so many people overlook, and I think it's great to have a video like this that shows just how interesting and complex the game can actually be. On a side note, a romhack is being developed (Karnov's Revenge Revolution) that rebalances the game, adds new moves and supers, and also changes the stun system a bit by making them match based as opposed to round based. I highly recommend anyone interested in Karnov's to check out .
Soul caliber air control is another “getting hit mini game”. It’s not always well used, but there are some really interesting situations it can create. Especially with walls and ring out. Knowing your opponent won’t air control like they normally would because of a ring out and going for a much more damaging but normally avoided combo route is very hype
Providing more engagement when getting hit/put in a combo is an approach that more games could benefit from, not just for stun. Nothing turns a new player off faster than getting hit with combos and having no input until the end. And depending on the game, that combo could be for a significant length of time.
And then there's the added fact that new players are basically free to reset, so even shorter combo games can feel like infinite city to them if the game defines blockstun as "that time where you don't get to play"
Personally if prefer shorter combos cuz i like consistent outcomes when landing a hit but i doubt that aproach would be taken anymore, tho i do like smash DI
I like Ryo's version of Stun in KOF 2002. Unlike other KOFs, 2002 has no Stun at all, but Ryo's SDM called Tenchi Haohken actually stuns the enemy when it hits, which is used as an excellent combo extender given how strong combos are in any version of KOF 2002
What a nice suprise I saw you in the Karnovs lobby the other day but didn't expect a new video about it! thank you for shining a light again on my favorite fighter.
I'm not big into smash but I can always appreciate having some kind of decision making while being comboed. For me, I tend to prefer the more dramatic feeling mid-combo decisions like KI's Combo Breakers or GG's Burst system, even if they're more limited in how often you can use them
DOA, Killer Instinct and specifically MBAACC might be good games for you to try then, the first two have counter/combo breaker mechanics and MBAACC has a system where if you time button presses to enemy attacks while being comboed, you take half damage All of them can be played for free too
Seeing this video made me realize that Karnov's Revenge was the arcade game I played at a tiny diner in Texas in the late 90s/early 00s! If I could piece together a few more details, I could even narrow down the specific date I played it. I remember being surprised that a few hits knocked my character's breastplate off. Also, the game was really freaking loud, so I whiffed on purpose (not that I was very good at fighting games anyway...) so people would stop glaring at me. Now I know I was playing Feilin, and whoever bought that arcade game either had unique tastes or cheap ones.
Now that's an incredible video. I hope this gives the game a little boost. I've been stunned by the way new players have risen up the ranks in the past few years. Cheers!
Smash has a unique approach to stun: it's to prevent playing too defensively. If the shield fully depletes, you are at the mercy of your opponent. The thing is, fully depleting a shield is not very common, and usually requires either a checkmate setup or a player being stupid and doing nothing. Small shields are even hard to hit with some attacks due to it not fully covering characters, meaning they might just be hit anyway. Your opponent didn't necesaarily earn the reward, but you definitely earned the punishment. There are also a select few moves that apply stun instantly. These moves tend to be situational, meaning getting hit by them is either a genius play or a massive lapse in judgement.
There are also a few moves that are speficifally designed to delete your Shield that makes the neutral Interactions with them very unique as moves like Martha/lucinas neutral b, dks Side b, byleths dair/dsmash, Sephiroths/Kazuyas dsmash and pretty much Ken/ryus shield pressure gives blocking a different viable counterplay to just grabbing the opponent. I am fairly confident that with slight alterations, this could be implemented into traditionel 2d and 3d fighting games
I've watched Karnov's Revenge before, and noticed that you stun someone by knocking a particular piece of clothing off, but I didn't know it only took three hits. That game is wild, people can just go IN and don't stop.
I liked how the traditional stun was like especially in 3 and 5 with the meter displayed. During high stun moments it becomes interesting seeing how the high stun players react with some becoming either more defensive or even taking high risk high reward options once they sniff out their opponent will overextend thwir offence to stun them
Oh man I need more fighting games with mechanics like stance shift. My absolute favorite thing about SSBM is the amount of defensive options there are and the ways players have to play around those defensive options. Same with Killer Instinct.
I disagree with the idea that stun is a simple "win more" mechanic. Maybe it is to some extent in SFV, but in older Street fighter titles, and even GG or KOF I feel like it works fine. The key factor is that conversions and pressure are way less stable in most older games. Getting a good combo into a knockdown takes a degree of risk, and actually running your pressure afterwards is riskier since older games tend to have stronger meterless defense. So in practice Stun acts as a soft comeback mechanic. When you're already losing taking the risk is more appealing, but doubling down with a risky mix-up while you're winning can also give the defender a chance to comeback. The fact that characters have different stun values directly plays into this. It's easy to cherry pick rounds where Slayer two-touches Dizzy or where Zangief stuns Seth with a single headbuttt while ignoring all the other rounds these characters spent getting the run-around in neutral. Sometimes in the exact same set. Stun doesn't necessarily make favored characters win-more, in some matchups it gives the underdog a chance to win at all (See Bonchan V.S B.J Unchained).
i like the idea of weak points, that sounds interesting with maybe having one at the characters back would be interesting making them extra vulnerable to cross-ups
I absolutely hate stuns. You’re already kicking the other players ass to get the stun, so you don’t need to give them a free combo. SF6 stun is way better imo. It doesn’t stun you for losing, it stuns you for putting yourself in a terrible situation.
I’d love to see a game that implements a weak spot AND strong spot, shift yourself so your strong spot gets hit enough times and get a free push block for example. Having defense expand from “okay do I block high or low” to the next logical step of “shoot I got mixed, but if I can get HIT high or low” gives you something to avoid AND work towards.
8 месяцев назад
Honestly I think DI is close to the idea of having a "strong point" mechanic.
I feel like Ougon Muse Kyoku has one of the most interesting applications of stun in a fighting game. If the opponent gets stunned in the air, you can still juggle them for one hit, so it's usually beneficial to plan out a combo so you'll stun them with a hit that can be followed up with a meta super (which does unscaled damage). That way your super will connect, and when the animation is finished the character will touch the ground and still be stunned, allowing you to follow up. But the real kicker is that the game doesn't have a stun bar, so this has to be done by feeling. It's insanely hype when it happens, and when it doesn't players usually have to figure out on the fly what they're going to do post-stun.
:::⚠::: IGNORE this guy and DO NOT GET INTO Karnov's revenge... you will ONLY See the Clown or Karnov and will have ZERO Fun in your beginners experience....
I've loved this game since I first emulated it in the late 90's. I mostly just play against the CPU and I had no idea you could stand/crouch while you were being hit in this game. This just elevates this game even more. It's definitely not perfect but damn is it fun.
I recommend looking into SD HIryu No Ken on the Super Famicom. - Players also have specific weak points you can trigger. - There's even a character that gets triggered into cutting off their own leg only for it to grow back. - You can find a video I made showcasing all characters and their animations. - Please refer to the video description to see footage of my notes to have a better understanding of the game at a glance. - Time stamps are also shown for each character notes / demonstration.
I think the RISC mechanic from GG is a very interesting take on stun while softening its impact. It also holds great design potential to be paired with actual stun. Like with Ryus SF3 Super, there could be interesting choices on how to react to enemy blockstrings, especially if they get to choose between low damage high stun or high damage low stun options, or have various moves that are less safe on block but deal a lot of stun risc. It might even be favorable to stop blocking and let yourself get hit by a weaker blockstring to relieve risc and avoid getting stunned.
I feel like there's a potentially interesting take on stun that could work: Have a super gauge that can be filled from either end: one side fills from getting hit and the other fills from attacks, like normal, but both sides drain quickly. If the bars meet in the middle, you get stunned, however there's an advantage to risking it because increasing the gauge to hit a certain threshold will permanently upgrade your moves, unless you get hit enough that the gauge gets pushed back down to a lower level. Going for a top level super (or having your character in the state necessary to do one - one hit and you're basically toast) would have to be devastating to justify the risk of getting stunned, but I feel like it could create an interesting risk/reward back and forth at the midrange of the scale - both encouraging the aggressor to be cautious of overcommitting and discouraging overly defensive play because players who aren't attacking enough will be unable to match up with their opponents.
The most interesting stun system is in Garou: Mark of the Wolves, where it is nonexistent, except for the strongest character in the game, that can stun from a super move.
Stuns origins are tainted for sure, but modern day stun has been close to perfected in SFV for more traditional, and 6 for the more modern spin. It rewards repeated skillful play in a single round and is almost entirely avoidable outside of true setups into a guess.
Great Video! Stun is my least favorite mechanic in Fighting games (next to "Mashing") so is interesting to hear about games with "better" applications of the stun mechanic.
Would be more interesting if 1. a parry or 2. a punish (after opponent misses a super) causes a stun. An opponent would be hesitant to spam super moves ...getting hit at a weak spot is also interesting especially if creates a change of play style where you try to avoid exposing weak spots to the opponent
KOF XI is actually heavily designed around stun, it even has a visible stun meter Since tagging in characters mid combo increases damage scaling its true reward isn't damage, it is stun, characters have different values of stun dealt and stun resistance Unlike modern FGs where every hit after the stun counts as part of the combo, which means damage scaling continues, the combo is over once the opponent has been stunned, meaning the damage scaling resets and whatever combo you do after will kill them
1- The psx Shaman King game has a weird stun system. Each character has 2 health bars one small(SP) and other bigger(HP) all the damage goes to the SP after it is depleted it subtracts it's initial value from the HP. The stun comes if your last attack brings the SP to exact 0. Which allows a combo to be a dizzy into redizzy into KO but if the SP is any lower the exact same combo won't stun. 2- Vampire Savior health bar regen sort of works like a dizzy bar but it has more nuances as more things interact with health than dizzy and it being so visible and tied to the main objective helps a lot.
I appreciate anyone willing to shout out the Smash games while talking about 2D fighters. DI is one of my favorite defensive mechanics ever, forcing players to overshoot and undershoot to land combos. It makes defensive play part of a conversation between players, and not something where you drop your controller while getting hit.
Makoto in SF3 seems to be built around threatening a stun at any point. But she has to work hard to get there. It's probably the biggest reason why she doesn't work in SF4. (Also the stun meter is no longer visible. Hidden vs Shown information is quite important.)
My favourite example is Ultimate Muscle LvNG, it has this kind of SF3 stun, but let me explain: - Every character has the same Stun Bar, being "10 hit of stun value", strong attacks usually do 1 point of stun, normal throws 2 points; - Your stun bar is invisible and it stays active from the first hit you receive, but as soon as you hit your opponent, stun gets reset and the opponent's one start, like a tug-of-war system; - Usually you can tech mid-air by jumping, but if you get stunned while mid-air or landing, the juggle cannot be escaped, like in SF3; - There are no explicit natural combos, unless you use a support or hit from behind; - You can parry every attack while in hitstun and break every normal throw from the front, but also can cancel your attack strings into throws or jump, to mixup the opponent; - Another interesting fact is that tagging out characters in 2v2 will not reset the invisible stun bar; So it's not very common to stun someone in that game, unless you are very good at throwing and okizeme(or playing Sunshine lol) not comboing like a traditional FG
I hate that DOA doesn't get talked about in these discussions. That "not a real fighting game" that nobody wants to take seriously has a pretty damn gopd solution to stuns that's right on par with KI.
I think a good balance to the stun mechanic is that after the stun damage is dealt, somehow/someway the neutral is reset. So essentially after you do your stun combo, it pushes you back 10-15 feet or so, giving the other individual a chance to reset their mind and position some.
Counter holds from Dead or Alive come to mind. You can't auto-pilot your combos because your opponent can counter as long as their feet are on the ground. It's such an interesting mechanic.
In 3s there is crouch recovery. for shoto tatsus, chuns sbk, certain dps, uriens tackle etc. even when you are i recovery you can still decide if you are standing or crouching. Ofc as crouching you take more damage but certain combos work only on standig chars. Also hitbox becomes wider crouching, this becomes important for punishing tackle for example, can be a good idea to recover standing for urien.
the original idea behind mortal kombat's "FINISH HIM" end-match state was _taking the stuns from street fighter 2, & puttin them at the end of the match._ youre not supposed to do a fatality, youre supposed to do a sick combo!
I like 3rd strike's stun system. Alex has enough stun generation that it's a viable pressure tool in his kit in which you can get a stun on almost everyone in the cast before they're dead anyway. Pair that with stungun headbutt and you get to have a fun double stun setup.
I miss the Reduce system from old Melty. Time button taps with the combo you're getting hit by to reduce damage. Another way to give someone something to do while being hit in a long combo besides just watch. And it can give the attacker an option to reset the combo by deliberately dropping hoping to catch them mashing.
If you want to explore another intresting Stun system and a game that have good options to the defender, I really recommend you try DOA specially 5, the game is all about stunning your oppenent and him beeing able to use counters even on block or hitstun.
Oh when you were asking for how stun combos worked in 3s on twitter I thought it was just because you were learning the game. Glad recommending the Bafael guide helped with the video, and great stuff as always!
It would be interesting if a game included an expanded version of "stance shift," in which you can actively respond to every hit of a combo, and if you do, then while you still take damage, you would take less, and perhaps start to open up an ability to break longer combos. It's like, think of the moment 37 situation, that was all parrying each hit, but what if instead, the first hit lands (assuming enough HP left to potentially survive it), and if you just go along for the ride then it will do a lot of damage, but if you can hit punches with each punch, kicks with each kick, some sort of both rhythm and guessing game that is really hard to do perfectly, then each hit you successfully counter might only deal half damage, and/or you might build up some gauge you could use to activate combo breakers, or it could cause you to push back further and further from the enemy, causing combos to start whiffing. There are all sorts of ways to make this an interesting high-end mechanic that would be flashy in tournaments, and also something fun for casuals, where you could get a few of these to work sometimes through button mashing, and that'd be fun, without completely shifting the balance.
Riding on an example by Big Yellow, but Klimt Undersn from Guilty Gear has a dodge ability that gives him stun in exchange for a strong defensive tool! It can then be followed up with a couple buttons, which have use in combos or counters, but has a chance to fail when his stun is high enough. I think this is a cool precursor to the drive gauge in SF6, using Stun as a resource rather than a mechanic based around purely taking damage. Maybe more games can utilize stun as a double-edged sword, like a character that gains options as they come closer to being stunned, or eating through their own stun to use certain moves, rewarding them for risky offense!
Guilty Gear XX ACPR has a stun sytem that while it isn't interactive moreso than any street fighter game it has in my opinion fun and interesting gameplay implications. For many characters it is a "occasionally win more" mechanic, however instant kills can turn a stun into winning the game on the spot. This requires you to be able to hit them with your IK, which may have a terrible hitbox making the stun situation matchup specific. Characters like May can turn stun into a serious wincon in certain matchups, seeing a round end in 10 seconds off of a counterhit 6P will make you reconsider your approach to neutral against may pretty quickly. The reason she can do this is that she outputs way too much stun damage compared to most of the rest of the cast and has a very good IK.
Depending on the game, and depending on how the fight is going, I'll likely just heavy hit a person or throw them. Some games allow combos to be broken or parried, so a free one hit or a throw is safer. I'll admit that if I'm enjoying the fight and it's going in my favor, I'll let them recover, because I want to defeat the person showing them I can win without the free damage. This puts mental disparity in the person to fight you again.
I would disagree with your take while it seems interesting the ''each character has unique weak point'' mechanic is way too complex and tricky to balance for a already complex genre that is fighting games. %90 of times its gonna push to players counter pick to win matchups or not matter at all. I would rather have to traditional stun tech any day implementing and balancing such system on a modern game would be a nightmare. But I do think ryus special on 3rd strike is interesting and should be on more games.
SF6 removed stun entirely from what it was, you don't get stunned by getting hit a lot. It's now linked to the drive meter, so going ham too hard yourself is the most common reason for getting stunned. And it doesn't just happen by getting hit by anything ether, you need to get hit by a specific attack while also having lost stage position. This specific attack can't be comboed into and give the stun, and it also doesn't work if it's a true blockstring into it ether. It gives a great sense of watching for that specific attack if you have your back to the wall and be buffering a super to get out of it when you see it go off. While opponents are trying to fake it to bait the super, or use setups where the opponent can't jump out of it.
The worst stun mechanic in fighting game history is the Guilty Gear version, cause you can be put into stun with one combo, then hit with an Instant Kill
Win more mechanics like stun are EXTRA egergious in games with comeback mechanics. Like stun in SFV was so poloarizing because V-trigger made it so easy to stun people while you were mounting a comeback.
