RWBY fans... come and get me. Re-uploaded due to copyright. Twiins iinks Ironwood video: • RWBY Discussion: The F... Join this channel to get access to perks: / @itsofficiai
My favourite part of S8 was when Ironwood and Winter fought and Winter told the guy who ripped off half of his arm to capture Watts two days ago that he never sacrificed anything, he just sacrificed everyone else. Trully perfect writing and character work.
konstellashon1364. Yeah, it is only wrong when it comes from Ironwood. Like the kiddies being quite critical of Ironwood when he used some supplies meant for Mantle to build out Amity as a communications tower to bring the world together again. But after they trashed Ironwood, they took his plan for Amity and made it their plan. Suddenly it is something that has to get done, no matter what. In the end they didn't even execute the plan properly.
When you think about it, Ironwood's death by the end of all this is beyond tragic. The man sacrificed so much and fought so hard to do the right thing and protect people, and what did he get for it? He was essentially lied to and betrayed by just about every single person he placed his trust in and was drowned, buried, and crushed underneath his home. Never even getting to know the full story behind the enemies he was fighting and marked as a madman. James deserved so much more than what he got.
And none of the characters react or care about how things turn out (save for James himself), and not even death will stop him from being hated as they bring him after exclusively to shit on him. He dies unloved and hated by everyone while the street rat with a mommy fetish and the sadistic ice cream midget get redemptive moments.
Ironwood was incredibly patient and reasonable given how much shit he had to put up with. It's a shame they decided to take him from a resolute hero to insane dictator. He could have been so much more.
They could’ve at least had him and the Ace Ops go out in one final stand or failing that have Qrow go through with killing him but have it be painted as a legitimate tragedy.
CRWBY could not have Ironwood be "more". That would wreck the narrative they were trying to force and result in taking some of spotlight and righteous shine off of team R/w/BY.
I was kind of looking forward to Ironwoods logical reasoning vs RWBYs idealism. Yet they couldn't chance Team RWBY being wrong so they made Ironwood a tyrannical sociopath in the span of like what? Ten minutes?
@@Vigriff Lol, well it's beginning to look like the show might be done already. Problem solved. Now if only the show could be picked up again by a new production house with new writers.
@@Vigriff Agreed. Pretty much just wipe the slate clean. Start off with and maintain an engaging story. Cut out the pandering, virtue signalling and cutting corners for low hanging fruit. Just stick to telling a good story.
Ironwood was right, shame RT did some nasty character assassination on him and went the easy route with the whole "save everyone with the power of friendship n shit" thing
I’d honestly argue that, no, there weren’t *really* any hints towards Ironwood turning villainous. We all simply half-expected it because it’s such a typical cliché.
With how he was written in the first couple volumes he seemed to break the “military man bad” archetype, yes his selling out Ozpin to the council was a prick move but he seemed legitimately remorseful about it. I thought they were onto something but nope.
@@thomasraines1396right? The episode after the dance, I thought he would chew out & insult Ruby's failed attempt to capture Cinder in the CCT. Sorta a Snape attitude. Instead, he compliments her?
@@thomasraines1396 That was also right after the Grimm invaded Vale so Ironwood wasn't exactly wrong for wanting to take control of security there. He still listened to them in V3 though so its not like he cut ties.
"I can't help but wonder who thought it was a good idea to put an anti-military message in a universe where they're under constant threat of monsters and a giant demon queen. Who is this for? I just don't understand it." This, so much. And as the narrative bashes the military, the Huntsman/Huntress system is praised. Despite the fact that it's shown to be a glorified mercenary market. So what if Team RNJR hiked past dead villages that were too poor to pay? Who cares if Dee and Dudley try to shake down their passengers? Muh fReeDUmBS!
I talked to a guy recently that flat out stated “The military would be your best friend in a world like that” and he’s right. The anti military message doesn’t work at all. Ren and Nora’s village got wiped off the map because they “couldn’t afford a huntsmen”.
Yeah seriously. Why wouldn't people want a military aka a large body of men and women who are sworn to protect the nation they serve? Why wouldn't they want a fleet of advanced warships to combat the swarms of literal monsters that just want to kill them?
@@konstellashon1364 that’s stupid. Hell Menagerie should look like Old Yharnam from Bloodborne because they have no huntsmen, the only form of “protection” they have is Ghira’s guards which amounts to only a couple random guys.
@@thomasraines1396 and what did Ghira and Blake eventually form. A Menagerie _Militia_ group. They didn't show up to Haven Academy, decked out in unique outfits, rocking mis-matched weapons. They had standardized shields and held formation. Because that's what was needed to get the job done.
still pisses me off how rwby spent volume 6 getting mad over ozpin withholding information, and then the next damn volume they decided to withhold information from Ironwood and get surprised that he ends up upset about, also its kind of messed up how he did so much stuff for them, like got Yangs arm, defended Weiss at the party, my man Ironwood gave the protagonists so much and they spat in his face.
He also congratulated Ruby on her (attempting) to stop Cinder during the dance, was able to emphasize with Yang after she “broke” Mercury’s leg, told the students that no one would fault them if they left during the Fall of Beacon and defended Weiss (again) when Jacque tried to start shit in Volume 7.
It's also messed up that as a character who turned all kinds of evil because the good guys didn't trust him, He died without ever being told the whole story, never being given the chance to react/respond to the situation properly. How do you create a new and convincing villain out of a former good guy without showing that he was given all the info needed to make a choice.
thomastaines1396. - Ironwood sided with team R/w/BY as soon as they got to Atlas. (As soon as he learned who it was that blatantly violated Atlas airspace in a stolen gunship.) - Never questioned their intentions (till much later of course when they betrayed him). - Brought them into his inner circle of most trusted almost on the spot. - Shared secret plans with them --- which they very much approved once they learned his goals! - Gave them training with the elite. - Upgraded their weapons and combat gear. (And their drip.) - Gave them their huntsman licenses - even though they never graduated, and certainly didn't deserve. - Defended Penny when Jacques and the cousil tried to vilify her. Likely have her decommissioned. - Even listen to their grievances and counsel and acted on some of their suggestions. The list goes on.... Ironwood was screwed royally just to prop up R/w/BY.
@@AdeptKing Indeed, no sacrifice.... heh. He also gave up his reputation as a good leader as it wad sabotaged by Watts and Tyrian. And perputated others as well. All while he could get Amity done in secrete before the bad guys and Salem found out about it. A plan that team R/w/BY had approved of (and even took over). But made no attempt to mitigate Ironwood being vilified in the public eye.
Remnant deserves to burn. They treated the last man who tried to help like shit for deranged teenagers, so as far as I'm concerned, let the Grimm eat them all.
@@thomasraines1396 Just imagine if the Grimm were even close to that kind of a threat instead of being a swarm of the boars you kill for your first XP in WoW.
I've been arguing against the idea that Ironwood has always being villainous and tyrannical as well. He makes mistakes but he always tries his best to protect the people he's leading and the ones he's sworn to protect. He's also not a coward, I don't care how many people say he is. The man essentially ripped his own arm off to stop Watts in S7, he's not afraid to get into it like the heroes. Also now that you brought it up yeah it is a bit strange that Qrow, RWBY and others are so against the idea of a military when they literally have to fight hordes of monsters for a living.
The anti military message they try and push throughout the show is stupid. He’s called a coward because he was going to leave Mantle to (supposedly) die instead of trying to save everyone.
@@thomasraines1396 I see. Would be nice if they took into account he was only doing it because trying to save everyone was likely doomed to fail and endanger who actually was safe at the time. That's the thing though, I would have loved to see Ironwood's logical strategy clash with RWBY's idealism since they are both kind of right though I guess my mind was leaning against Ironwood's plan more at the time.
@@thomasraines1396 Lol, that anti-gun messaging from V7 on was very evident. Only Ironwood, the military, and of course the bad guys got to engage in gun play and shoot. Not just at monsters but at other characters as well. While Team R/W/BY now rarely use the gun function of their weapons (if at all) on screen. Even at monsters. (I miss those creative recoil jumps.) Only Weiss is allowed to 'fire' projectiles in full display. But they are basically fantasy ordinance, like Ice. (lol, since she does not really engage in sword play anymore.)
@@DocMicrowave Well, that is kind of the cliche with every series that involves powers. Guns are used by bad people and are useless. (DC, Marvel, My Hero Academia, etc.)
He was also willing to leave Mantle to die because context gives the impression that they are most likely dead already given that Salem would arrive at any moment due to early warning system being taken out.
Their treatment of Ironwood made me drop the show entirely. First off our "heroes" (expect me to say this word a lot) are a bunch of hypocrites and the writers wants us the audience to turn off our brains and think they are in the right. The writers butchered his character to make him a villain right after a fight where his theme song appeared. Everything from the song Hero (which is my favourite song of the entire series) says everything why Ironwood was a hero. The lengths he would go to protect someone.
Ironwood is more suited for a world like Remnant: where life isn’t “like a fairytale” (or the show constantly claims), he knows that tough calls have to be made, he knows that you can’t save everyone, he knows he’s going to be hated for how he does things, he does all of that without caring about what happens to him. Ruby and her gaggle of hanger ons want to have their cake and eat it (the show frequently lets them), they want to be able to save everyone and do things without anyone dying.
I kind of stopping seeing RWBY as heroes after what they did to Ozpin. They got pissed at him for hiding things but he didn't really do anything bad to them so it felt a little just petulant for no reason. The stuff with Ironwood just sealed the deal.
Everyone on team rwby is playing checkers while Ironwood playing a game of warhammer 40k. He knows his enemy, he knows he can’t win, and the best he can do is fight a bloody war of attrition in the hope Salem flinches first. Ironwood wasn’t a perfect man by any stretch of the imagination but he was the only person in RWBY willing to make the hard calls to keep the relic out of Salem’s hands and as many people alive as he could.
Ironwood fits more in line with the “life isn’t like a fairytale” narrative it constantly spouts off but never actually does anything with. A world like Remnant would have a more pragmatic approach to everything they do out of basic necessity for survival, none of this stupid “death before dishonor” or Anti military nonsense they try and shove into the narrative, nor “THEY’RE JUST KIDS!” line of thinking.
@@thomasraines1396 RT just can't write any nuanced storylines to save their lives. Even if they manage to set up plot points that could become interesting and multi-layered, they always throw what little was there into the trash in favor of writing team RWBY as being right all the time despite them fucking everything up
@@thomasraines1396 Ironically they created a setting where an an anti military/war sentiment makes the least sense. In a world like ours moral ambiguity between two opposing sides fighting for personal interests makes an anti war message cogent in a lot of situations. In RWBY the enemy is a mindless army of monsters controlled by a demigod set on causing the literal end of the world. In RWBy militarism is not only necessary but inevitable.
@@collingreen9517exactly if anything it would be like “The Walking Dead” where even the kids are taught how to fight and survive as their - main - opponent are thinking, unfeeling monsters who’s only purpose is to kill.
I can't believe that Qrow blamed Ironwood for Clover's death, when it was really Robyn who started the whole fight that resulted in Tyrion stabbing Clover literally in the back with Qrow's sword. If I were Qrow, I would have punched Robyn and called her out for her stupid and selfish bulls**t in starting that fight that resulted in Clover's death. Worst of all, this is the same Robyn that both Blake and Yang decided to leak information about the Amity project behind Ironwood's back when they were ordered to arrest Robyn for stealing after she lost an election. And I can't believe that RWBY fans are excusing Team RWBY's actions for all of the bulls**t they've pulled in both Volumes 7 and 8, lying to Ironwood, leading the Refugees of Atlas and Mantle into Vacou which is a terrible idea and letting Cinder take the Staff and Lantern. Their actions resulted in not only Atlas' destruction, but Mantle's destruction as well. It's like they're on Copium or something. There's no way anyone could excuse writing this terrible.
Qrow not only started the fight on the ground he had enough time to stop, switch Harbinger to its sword from, look at Tyrian for a second then he charged Clover, he also had enough time to stop and look at it after it was knocked from his hands, then he stupidly decks Clover after Tyrian had already been subdued, they bitch at each other for a bit, then *and only* then does Tyrian get the chance to sneak up behind him and kill him.
Personally if they had to make Ironwood an antagonist I would have preferred something like this Don’t have him and his group turn on Ruby’s and have them work together when fighting Salem’s forces in the ending of Volume 7 and throughout Volume 8 Ironwood creates the alliance between the kingdoms against Salem but his old habits resurface as he is not only ruthless when dealing with Salems followers but also when dealing with the societal issues each of the kingdoms have, and uses force to eliminate them such as the corruption of the Atlas elites, the criminal underworld of Mistral, the chaos in Vacuo, and humanities prejudice towards Faunus. He eventually becomes the dictatorial ruler of Remnant making him a General Zod type character. Overtime his methods alienate Ruby’s group who grow concerned and worried about the path he is taking. When confronted he reveals that he didn’t get over Ruby’s group lying to him about Jinn. Eventually the two sides end up fighting each other like Avengers civil war where you can see why both sides have a point while also seeing their flaws where you don’t know who to root for and make the circumstances more emotional and conflicting when they fight each other rather than just Ironwood is bad.
The writers did Ironwood dirty in this volume. I get trying to keep things together and being pushed to the limit, but shooting people that disagree with him makes no sense.
A deliberate scene inserted to put a hard stop on Ironwood sympathy that was building in the fandom over the summer after V7 ended. But CRWBY kept to their narrative of keeping the female body count near zero. Ironwood only shot Counsilman Sleet. Not Counsilwoman Camilla who was standing right next to him and was just as vocal.
James was one of the heroes Remnant needed to always work ALONG with team RWBY... whatever their eventual outcome would entail... just always be there and never against them. You can thank the writers for the bullshit that happened at the end of Volume 7 and all of Volume 8 for that!
i dont think rwby fans know what foreshadowing is just because the characters talk trash about him doesnt mean it's a great set up because none of his actions had sinister intend. thats not how you foreshadow a character being evil
On the other side of that same coin, the stans who praised Robyn from the beginning didn't realize we never actually saw her fight for Mantle. Just heard the one-time character Forrest talk about her. 🙄
Really, Ironwood is the same sort of character as Commander Shepard, specifically Renegade Shepard. He's someone who fully understands the stakes and their implications of the conflict when nobody else around him does; he understands that losing the war means annihilation, and that in the face of such a threat, all the rules go out the window, save one: "whatever it takes".
After coming back onto this topic, I think there was 1 change the writers should've done to make Ironwood's decent into villainy make sense: Have Team RWBY tell the truth from the get-go. Tell him everything they learned during their journey from Mistral to Atlas. From Salem being immortal to the Relic of Knowledge still having one question left. This revelation this early on would give Ironwood all the context his character would need to jump the gun with his plans. It would make him more hell-bent to getting the Tower ready, and more hell-bent in keeping the Relics out of Salem's and Cinder's hands. Especially if he ends up using the last question to find an alternative solution. One that COULD generate genuine conflict with Team RWBY and co if the last question's answer gives them a morally questionable solution to dealing with Salem for good. One that would be big enough to make RWBY begin second guessing themselves in whether telling Ironwood was the right choice as things continue to escalate, as well as being something that someone like Ironwood could come to justify in the name of the greater good. And it would and could make sense for Ironwood to follow through with whatever new plans the Relic's answer would give him. As unlike Leo who betrayed everyone out of fear of his own life, Ironwood is a military general. And sometimes when you're preparing for a war that could dictate the fate of not just your home's future, but the future of the world, you don't always get the luxury of choosing the options you agree with the most. And dealing with a threat that can't die like Salem is a situation where sometimes the most ugliest and morally repugnant choice given to you is the only viable choice in the long run.
"Especially if he ends up using the last question to find an alternative solution. One that COULD generate genuine conflict with Team RWBY and co if the last question's answer gives them a morally questionable solution to dealing with Salem for good. One that would be big enough to make RWBY begin second guessing themselves in whether telling Ironwood was the right choice as things continue to escalate, as well as being something that someone like Ironwood could come to justify in the name of the greater good. " They should also make it clear that Team RWBY has some alternative plan because no matter how much you disagree with the plan it has to be absolutely terrible for no plan at all and just hope for the best being better when dealing with an existential threat at their doorstep. Don't get me wrong Team RWBY plan can be flawed and be overly optimistic just has to be clear that they have some alternative plan to argue in favor of that isn't just blind optimism and unwillingness to make any sacrifice at all.
I also would have done this: Divide their forces. It would try to satisfy both goals but in the end many losses could happen, even some characters will die, but at least they would be able to succeed evacuating most people and getting the relics to safety. They would finally understand the benefits of working together but also acknowledge the heavy cost that is inevitable.
Having Ironwood shoot an innocent civilian, Councilman Sleet in the middle of the very first episode of V8 was CRWBY's attempt to put a hard stop on Ironwood sympathy that had been building in the fandom (by the more rationally minded fans) up to and after V7 ended. Where the narrative was meant to leave off with "Ironwood bad". Especially after shooting Ozcar. CRWBY picked up on this and basically crafted that scene to remind the fandom and hammer home the narrative going into V8, "IRONWOOD BAD!" Interesting to note. In keeping with the very SJW/Far left leaning themes introduced in V7, CRWBY kept the depiction of the shooting very PC. Ironwood shot Sleet without hesitation. But interestingly did not shoot Councilwoman Camilla, a female POC character who was standing right next to sleet and just as vocal. In fact, from the ending arc of V6 till the present, about a dozen (named) male characters have been killed off. While only one (named) female character was killed. And she was ultimately killed by a male character. This show has become biased in so many ways.
I can't fault Ironwood for shooting Sleet. An immortal witch just showed up at their doorstep with the largest army of Grimm ever seen in one place, and he's demanding to know what Ironwood is thinking declaring Martial Law. What situations did Sleet think Martial Law was for if not this one?
I beg to differ. While ignoring the fact that it was ludicrous to shoot Sleet, Ironwood could have just had him locked up to get him out the way if he was irritating or a distraction. Could have had both locked up. At that point the council was pretty much powerless. Why then shoot Sleet, and only Sleet? If the narrative being pushed is Ironwood is really evil and out of his mind at this point, why not just shoot both Sleet and Camilla? She came in with Sleet. Was standing next to him. She was just as loud in protesting Ironwood's actions. Why leave her alive? A potential civilian witness to a murder by the Kingdom's highest military official who if left alive could stir even more decent in the populous once she tells everyone that Ironwood is not the shining knight he appeared to be in that public video announcement he did with Robyn. (Of course the show wouldn't go there. ) The shooting of Sleet was illogical and counter productive in a real sense. But of course this is a very fictional show that has become more real world politicized in recent volumes. In keeping with the current sjw themes in hollywood, minority characters are generally not shown being outright killed or suffering any kind of extreme physical torture. (Unless they are really trying to be edgy). Generally non-minority characters are depicted as ones doing the oppression and bad things. If not, they depicted as idiots, obstacles. Also, any minority characters who are depicted as evil, generally are presented with a sad back story, making them more eligible to be flipped to the good side later and redeemed. (Illia, Emerald, Even Neo.) Regardless of past crimes. But I degress. The scene was unnecessary and only proved to me how petty CRWBY can be by responding to real world critique from fans with out-left-field scenes like the shooting. Of course it only gets exponentially worse from there as Ironwood is turned into a mustache twirling villain. There are quite a few scenes like that in V7 and V8 meant to force home a narrative, or respond to fandom critics when CRWBY feels the (entire) fandom is not getting the point. Just my opinion of course. The show had become very biased in its story telling and depictions in recent years.
@@DocMicrowave I don't fault him for shooting Sleet. I definitely fault him for not shooting more of the idiots he was surrounded by. Though it is incredibly obvious that the scene of him shooting Sleet was tacked on late in production, almost certainly in response to the fans siding with Ironwood. No one reacts to it, and it's much further down the slide into villainy than other actions that show up later that the Ace Ops do start questioning him about despite having been in the room when he shot Sleet. Like, when Ironwood goes for his gun when Marrow is trying to rally the Ace Ops in protest, but Marrow watched Ironwood shoot someone for less than he was doing right there. Yet only Winter seems to realize the danger.
@@YouthRightsRadical I fault the writers for feeling the need to tact on such a blatantly unnecessary scene. You are likely correct. That 5 second scene was probably tacked on after the fact in respose to the building "Ironwood sympathy" in the fandom at that point. As they would have been well into primary animation of V8 by then. It would require just a few days work to add in a scene like that I am guessing. They treat the audience like kids. Having to spell things out when they get critique, or feel not everyone is getting the point they are pushing. Subtlety is out the window. And fine, if the plot called for Ironwood to randomly shoot a civilian to show how "evil" he was, why not shoot both Sleet and Camilla? Or Why not just lock up both? Why treat them differently when they are doing the same thing, have the same political positions? Are in the same place calling him out! The only reason I can think of for the biased shooting is CRWBY trying to feign DEI themes, while still being biased and PC. Trying to stay within the lines, as demonstrated by Hollywood in recent years. Kinda like how RT/CRWBY are behind the scenes as revealed last year. Act one way for the public, but are quite different behind the scenes. Most of the stuff they do to show how progressive they are in public and in-show is basically 'just business'.
I did feel like it would have been an interesting dynamic for Ironwood's rationality and RWBY's idealism to clash. Of course they couldn't go with that though. They had to have RWBY be right and Ironwood had to be an evil jerk with no redeeming qualities even though we've been shown he's a very caring individual who wants to protect his people no matter the personal cost to himself. His song literally says that he would die to protect the innocent and the helpless.
Re-commenting since you had to re-upload. I still agree with this video and wonder why they even had Ironwood become a villain when our main villain’s goals after 9 VOLUMES IS STILL UNKNOWN! Seriously, why does Salem want the relics? Does she want another shot at the brothers? If that’s the case then what’s changed how can she beat them now when she couldn’t then? Wants the brothers to wipe the world away? But she could do that herself! RWBY refuses to let their protagonists (not heroes) make mistakes and refuse to focus on the villains they already have! Also copyright stuff sucks but thanks for the re-upload!
The most common reason given is that Salem wants to summons the gods as a way to finally die, the problem with her (supposed) logic is that fact she’s already done this before: all of humanity was wiped out, and the gods just left her alone and then humanity miraculously repopulated.
Unless CRWBY decides to bend (or break with) the original lore, something they have done quite often in recent volumes, the narrative is/was Salem wants the relics to summon back the brothers so they will see the state of the world and decide to destroy it, along with Salem. She wants to get back at them for cursing her by corrupting the world. And she also wants to finally die. Whether or not CRWBY sticks with that original narrative is anyone's guess at this point.
His character, design, weapon, theme (even semblance, maybe, if it was even used somehow) are all just so perfect. It's a shame that they destroyed him like that. Him and Watts are one of the most interesting characters, even their battle was one of the best.
I never had problems with Ironwood, I saw him for who he was, a man who just wanted to protect his people through what he thinks is the best course of action.
Something some people should keep in mind in trying to find faults in Ironwood's actions. Ozpin, as well as Team R/W/BY never allowed Ironwood to know the Entire story behind Salem, Oz and the real history of the world. They always kept him in the dark, only giving him scraps of info. Enough for the toxic, anti-ironwood part of the fandom to feel that the 'heroes' treated him well enough. Ironwood died NEVER knowing the entire story of who and what he has been fighting against.
Wow, that's... fucked up. Especially how he was desperately trying to find out what he was fighting and actually appealed to RWBY, a group of kids he had to approve as Huntsmen, to tell him what's going on.
averymicrowave1713. It is really messed up. That the writers were so bent on getting Ironwood to full on Sith Lord mode as quickly as possible, that they deliberately wrote him into a box. Keeping him from any vital information that would have logically allowed him to make decisions accordingly. He already proved that he could take such information without going off the rails when Ozcar (Not Ruby!) gave him that single piece of info about Salem's die hard status. They full well knew that doing that, as well as delving into his mind set and reactions to the information would have humanized him. Couldn't have that. It would take too much of a righteous shine off team R/W/BY. Ironwood had to be a stone cold robot. And btw, ironwood did NOT have to approve the kids as huntsmen. Just like he did not have to send Yang a new Arm. He did so out of respect and appreciation for all that they did fighting the good fight and having their school destroyed before they could graduate. That is the kind of man he was. There was no obligation to give them their licenses. Yet with all that and more, he is still thrown under a bus so that kiddies could shine.
@@DocMicrowave Honestly hearing how dirty they've done him makes me glad that I stopped watching the show after Season 3-4. Ironwood was literally one of the only likeable characters IMO (I'd say the only other characters were Ren, Jaune and Pyrrah). I always got the sense that they were gonna make him a temporary bad guy but what they had him do in Volume 8 was excessive as all hell, especially with how justified he was in the previous volume. Like, with their whole reactionary writing of catering to the fanbase you'd think they'd actually make a whole interesting plot element of having Ironwood compromise with Team RWBY - maybe kill him off if they really didn't like that people were liking him more than the protagonists but make it heroic. Like they could have had him get the protagonists escape with the relic with the civilians while him and some of his men sacrifice themselves to slow down Salem. But I guess the idea that a character that actively disagreed with Team RWBY - and a military man at that - shouldn't just be killed off and humiliated is too much for the writing team to bear.
@@averymicrowave1713 Indeed, they did do Ironwood Dirty. Sacrificed to make team R/w/BY look right and righteous. Thanks! That was the term I was looking for. 'Reactionary Writing'. The last few volumes have been full of that. Not only reacting to the shippers, but reacting to the critics as well, In-show. CRWBY is nothing if not responsive. And they can be quite spiteful as well when the fandom does not fall in line with the narrative they set forth. Out of show and in show. In the last few volumes, they not only did Ironwood dirty (his situation was the worse.), they also did Qrow dirty. Also Hazel and Watts. In fact they did pretty much EVERY male character who was not actively simping after R/w/BY, dirty. They where all depicted as Overly Emo, obsessive, obstacles, untrustworthy, idiots, useless, deceitful, or just plain evil. Sometimes all of the above And were generally killed off at some point. Around a dozen or more named male characters I think since late V6. While only one (named) female character was killed since then. Go figure. The over arcing narrative is fairly clear. The guys are generally no good, untrustworthy, or just plain evil.
@@averymicrowave1713I would be fine if they had him and all of the Ace Ops go out like Sandman and his team from Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3. That way the cast is cut down and gets rid of the stupid melodramatic in fighting.
When it comes to me I really don’t have a problem with Ironwood going insane (after everything that happened it would be more unbelievable if he didn’t), my problem is that none of the characters react or care that he does (after spending an entire volume of doing nothing but dumping on him): no guilt or shame he’s just written off evil bad guy 100. The only one to react to how things went down is James (his crying before he fights Winter), Qrow spends all of Volume 8 being angsty about a guy he knew for (at the very most) a few weeks and wants to gut James like a fish. Even after he went insane they still could’ve had him come to his senses long enough to go out like a badass: have him go out like any of Noble Team from Halo Reach (either Noble Six, Emile, Jorge or Carter), have him go out like Grifter from “Justice League: The Flashpoint Paradox” where he dies but dies fighting. Hell have him and all of the Ace Ops go out like Sandman and his team from “Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 3”. Or if they wanted to work the tragedy angle have Qrow go through with his killing of him but it’s painted as a legitimately sad moment: have Qrow approach the situation like Optimus Prime after Megatron dies in the first “Transformers” where he claims “You left me no choice Brother” or when Daryl mercy kills Dale on “The Walking Dead” while claiming “Sorry Brother”. But no, none of that happens, he dies alone and hated by everyone while the most annoying character in the show (Cinder) gets one last word in. Not even death stops him from being dumped on either as they bring him up in Volume 9 just to shit on him some more. What makes the situation even more confusing is that even worse scumbags (with even flimsier justifications) get redemptive moments (Illia, Cordo, Hazel, Emerald, Neo) and one of those characters (Neo) is canonically a sadist. I’m honestly leaning more towards the Sandman idea as not only does it cut down the already bloated cast, it gets rid of the pointless melodramatic in fighting.
I was kind of hoping Ironwood would have gotten a heroic last stand too. Like Carter driving a ship into the Scarab in Reach. I got a lot of hate for that idea.
Heh, Emerald will never be a 'plant', double agent, or turn the "heroes". She has far too many favorable character attributes. She will continue on in the show, enjoying 99.99% plot armor. Nothing bad will happen to her. Not even a scratch. However, that said, you will be seeing a whole lot less of her in V10. And certainly not in any fights. The writers have made her insane levels of OP with out any newly established limits. They won't know how to put her into any kind of fight with stakes. She will be sidelined, or moved to a separate mission out of sight. They only opportunity I see for her being brought back into play is during an interaction with Cinder and/or Mercury. And that is assuming they can hire back her VA. Otherwise she will be forgotten. Left out of the story.
@@AdeptKing Yeah, siding with, showing understanding for, or wishing there was a more heroic end for Ironwood does not go over well with the more PC/Progressive parts of the fandom. Ironwood has to, had to be the ultimate in irredeemable evil. Sorry you got hate for that sentiment. Been there too.
I love how we all hate this show, for what is happening to it. And how i'm way more invested, with a Major side character. Rather than the main cast. Ironwood was meamt to represent the Tin man in oz. But instead of gaining a heart, he'd have lost it. (Like Leo Lionheart, who was a coward. Where the Lion, gained courage.) But Ironwood's fall, was just handled badly.
Oh he was brought back, in visions. Just to continue the bad guy routine. I wouldn't be surprised if he made other appearances in future episodes, in flashbacks. Guaranteed to be depicted maintaining his status as an evil overlord. CRWBY seems to like to change up roles for certain characters as needed to drive a narrative. Pyrrah, once shown to be a paragon of virtue, has now appeared twice as an evil or deceitful character. While Illia, Emerald and even Neo, characters who have truly committed evil acts like terrorism, conspiracy, deception, assault, and Murder, get to flip to the 'good' side. With all previous transgressions forgiven and forgotten. No penalties incurred for thier actions. They even got to assist team R/w/BY directly in some way. No other characters (particularly male) was or ever will be afforded that privilege.
0:36 And just like that, you are already better than Ruby at the start of Volume 7, who compromised her own beliefs in truths over lies just because she was afraid Ironwood.
James Ironwood was an awesome character when I first watched RWBY. A metal man with a golden heart. It disgusts me that RoosterTeeth made him so unrecognizable and turned him into a "villain" for the sake of the plot or rather the sake of Team RWBY is right all the time. You made a great video, Itsoffical. Keep up the good work.
I love Ironwood but I wish they hadn’t turned him into a villain because as you pointed out they seemed to not want the fans to agree with ironwood and so assassinated his character giving him a stupid semblance that they could fall back on as an excuse
The show always had problems but it went to shit with this atlas storyline in seasons 7 and 8. There were so many missed oppertunitis and even more ruined ones.
Ironwood is the embodiment of the phrase "by any means necessary". He doesn't do it because he wants to or he likes to it's that he feels like he has to in order to win. That's what honestly makes him an interesting character. The reasons for what he's doing are right but the methods are not.
Thank u you and eruption fang are the only people who get ironwood the writers don't even get him just like they don't get Adam can u do a video on him next
Rwby lost the plot a long time ago its too bad. I was hoping it would get acquired by a company that can write good stories. I still hope for this and for alot of the shit writing to get reconned.
I hated what they did to Ironwood. As far as I'm concerned Team Rwby is at fault for the Fall of Atlas. These kids whom grew up in a time of peace, had no business telling a general how to fight a war he had been fully aware of far longer than them. Protagonists or not, even the "good guys" can and have been wrong, and we, the fandom, need to learn to accept it, and live with it.
I personally dont understand the point of view that any of this ruined his character. You called it out in this video in a way but its a perspective i think is misunderstood to an extent. Yes, it was foreshadowed. Was it to fast? Thats admitably debatable and honestly a bit up to opinion. The reality though is that *what* was being forshadowed is that Ironwood was a man fighting for the right reasons in the way he thought was right. The thing that is indefenisble is the extent of sacrafice he was willing to make. Its about showcasing that there is a point where you are giving to much up to "save people". Team RWBY is supposed to represent the idealest point of view where hope and trust can perservere through hardship. Ironwood tried this path and chose to believe it had failed out of fear of the unknowns. Thats what Oscar's song (a song relating to his confrontation with Ironwood) is all about. "Fear that we might fail. Fear that we migut succeed. Fear that we may not provide the things our loved ones need." In the end Ironwood gave up his morals out of fear. That story *was* told well. The thing that crossed the line, for me at least, was not "he was giving up to many people by giving up mantle." Its indisputable that from his side of the arguement saving some is better than saving none. The *reason* I think he is in the wrong (not a villain, just a man who tried his best) in the end is because he gave up his own code. He always said he fought for the people at the start (ex. Volume 2/3). That became fighting for Atlas (the kingdom). Then that became fighting for Atlas (the flying city). The reason he can change without seeing this shift in himself is because of the perception that Salem is unstopable. The very thing he was scared of at the start (though he had to much confidence to admit it verbally early on you can read it in his characterization). *THIS* is why i agreed with Ruby hiding the truth initially. Because they don't know for sure. And just so were clear. Team RWBY was supposed to look like hypotcrites. The lesson of volume 6 is two sided. Yes, Oz should trust them more... But also team RWBY needed to learn why he was hiding it. That you arent entitled to knowing everything. That "classified information" exists for a reason. So when they got to Ironwood... And recalled his harsh and direct methods/fears. They were *rightfully* concerned. Also, Ruby made the choice to hide it. The team was very divided on the choice and this was shown inmediately. Ruby made the choice. Which btw, she was also the one person who didnt immediately berate Oz. She seemed to reflect on what she saw more than act rashly. Yang and Qrow are the ones who got physically angry. Blakes reaction was more like lost and distressed. Weiss was basically just distressed and hopeless. Ruby seemed to have more of a stoicism but uncertainty in the wake of the (forced) Oz truth bomb. So when *she* is the one to singlehandedly make the choice to hide the truth from Ironwood it does align with the idea that seemed to *understand* why Oz did not want to tell them. Because she is the charcater who most firmly believes in *hope*, the exact thing everyone lost when they found out. Anyway, sorry for the rant. Tldr: in the end both parties were wrong all I'm throughout volume 7/8 for different reasons. In reality the lesson is that if they had cooperated more and trusted each other more (see: Trust Love) it *may* have gone better in various ways all throughout the arc.
I really like Ironwoods character, I think the choice to send him into a down spiral was questionable but provided some very entertaining episodes. Also no matter what he's just a total badass, the way he fights and acts, he's a force of pure determination.
For some of the comments from other commenters in this video I'm really starting to get very very very conflict right now for some of you say that it was rwby's fault it was Robyn's fault but it wasn't their fault for my opinion on who is to blame I think it was the writers who made this series and who made the downfall of this character and made the character turn against didn't understand what he was trying to do just like they did to ozpin in volume 6 and worst of all they thought when James lost his arm and got another robotic arm that it was a good idea to make him a villainous tyrant well it's not a good idea at all and it never wore.
I do see the points everyone is making and yes i do agree it was weird writing to make him seem good and then throw it in the trash. On the other hand i feel like what he went through was realistic, he tried to do it there way by helping Mantel, and the moment he does it all falls apart. He had to do things his way, what i seen from him was a man who was betrayed by his closest friend, others he trusted started to turn on him even when he was right, and than he was a broken man, willing to do whatever he could to save what was left of Atlas, and he failed betrayed by Winter, and his troops he had nothing left. I love him for it honestly, he could have been a hero yes but this isnt a world where heros just stop the evil forces is filled with people doing the best they can and sometimes it isnt enough. I believe this was learned in volume 9.
It wasn’t, RWBY’s moronic plan of sending of thousands of people - that were either impoverished and frail from lack of resources or snooty aristocracy who have never had to suffer a day in their life - to an overcrowded, poorly kept together, barley inhabitable, desert shit hole is played off as the right call. The people Atlas would keel over from heat stroke in hours, any chance of them finding proper food, shelter or defense from the harsh environments/monsters (not even just Grimm, Vacuo has its own creatures) would be overwritten by the simple fact there are literally *thousands* of them. People of Vacuo canonically despise people from Atlas as Atlas fucked them over during the Great War - that resentment would bring Grimm -. Ironwood’s fall into complete madness isn’t the problem, it’s the fact that none of the characters react or care (they bring him up in Volume 9 exclusively to shit on him some more). The *only* character who seems sad about how things turn out is James himself (his crying before he fights Winter). RWBY constantly talks about how “life isn’t like a fairytale” but does absolutely *nothing* with the concept and instead romanticizes the fairytale narrative. James could’ve still died in a way that redeemed him in some fashion or showed that he was still a good man despite everything that happened. Instead he dies, unloved and despised by everyone all the while a street rat terrorist with mommy issues and a sadistic psychopath get redeemed and we as the audience are meant to buy it full stop.
Ironwood is a cool character and i like how his descent into madness is done off screen mostly after the attack on beacon, he definitely loses his marbles because his plans start getting less and less practical
His stubble in Volume 4 was a nice bit of visual storytelling that he was definitely running himself into the floor, it being a full on beard by Volume 7 was showing he wasn’t getting much - if any - sleep and clearly wasn’t taking care of himself.
I knew he had good intentions, but that means nothing. Evil can come from good intentions, in Volume 7 I was supportive, I knew there’d be some consequences from their lies, but he proved unworthy of their trust. He talked a good game about protecting remnant, but Ironwood was an ultranationalist elitist, he’d prefer to keep the world safe, as long as Atlas was safer than the rest of the world. He was past the point of redemption, so far gone that he threw away every moral he ever had and killed people for questioning him, he was a dictator, and I was very happy when he died after losing to Winter. Ironwood was self-righteous, hypocritical, and was truly no better than the evil he wished to stop. Him demanding absolute loyalty made him a monster, he manipulated Winter, who already had a rough upbringing, and he used her until she became his most treasured pawn. Forcing a destiny on someone is wrong, and I hated that Winter supported him for so long, I think that she saw Ironwood as a father figure in a way, but Ironwood was a coward.
“ He talked a good game about protecting remnant, but Ironwood was an ultranationalist elitist, he’d prefer to keep the world safe, as long as Atlas was safer than the rest of the world.” My recollection of his actions/statements in V8 aren’t the best, but nothing before that supports this at all. He was concerned with the long term victory to keep Remnant as a whole safe, with the initial Amnity Project aimed not just at informing/uniting the world against Salem, but using that Atlas Military to support all the nations from the Grimm attacks that would follow from potential panic. And even in the instance where he planned on raising Atlas out of Salem’s reach, it wasn’t out of any sense of Ultranationalism, it was his best plan for keeping two of the relics and one maiden out of Salem’s reach indefinitely.
