I have built many, many of these houses and basements under huge houses. We always waterproofed the exterior, added a French Drain system to the exterior side. We actually set the first course of block into the wet footer, thus locking it to the foundation! Leveling? No problem. When one reaches the top of the wall and finds some high points or low points, just trim trim the blocks to the desired heights, or add additional foam from partial blocks that have been used for other small projects. Straightness of walls? NO PROBLEM! A minimum of bracing is required on the inside. As you poor, the wall will move with the flow of the concrete and the shift in weights. Not to worry. Since it will take 25-30 years for the concrete to reach maximum hardness, you come back the next day and adjust the bracing to square the walls. Then, since you’ve already hung the floor joints into the concrete, and if you’re smart, bought a prefabbed floor system, you begin to hang the floor joists. They are cut to length and true, so they provide the final absolute squareness to the walls. A 2X10 sill plate fits nicely on the top of the wall. make certain you place Simpson Tie tie down straps into the wet concrete as you reach the top. The ties will wrap around your sill and are easily nailed in place. Any holes through the exterior walls for water, sewer, A/C, electrical should be lined with PVC pipe . Simply cut the hole through the wall prior to pouring, making certain the pipe diameter is sufficient to handle the planned size utilities. Plus make certain these “chases” are big enough to replace any utilities line later if need be. After the utility lines have been installed simply foam in the extra space to prevent any invasion by rodents, bugs, water, etc. of them. This house as shown could be stacked, poured, leveled, plumbed, and waterproofed in 3 days without a problem by my crew of four! BTW, my home in ND has this block, is 3260 sq.ft., with 12 foot ceilings, 28% exterior glass for windows, and is all electric (not natural gas) the average utility bill is $72.00 per month! And, by the way also, these houses are bullet proof! They are so tight that you’ll need an air handler to circulate fresh air. There are no cold spots in these houses! All rooms are the same temp. You need one thermostat, one A/C unit, and hardly any cleaning supplies. They are practically dust free! The biggest house I built from foam was 8468 Sq. Ft. 3 stories. His average utilities for heating and cooling runs $168 per month
@@President-Elect_Cory No, but would be more than happy to come and assist you build your house, or help your contractor build said house. We could work out the details. If you’re interested, first and foremost, I work cheap (retired, and don’t require much funding), would need a minimum nice place to stay, And really enjoy helping others learn. Most of the work on a ICF house wall can construction can be done by the home owner himself. Where is Michigan do you live? I’m presently in Louisiana.
@@stephentaylor9366 I appreciate that. I live just outside Grand Rapids. Send me an email @ beard0797@msn.com and we can chat more about the details. Thanks again.
We built the first 2 storey (Basement + 2 more) ICF house in Ottawa, Ontario, Canada 30 years ago that has been trouble-free and a real pleasure to live in. All of your so-called negatives are minor to trivial compared to the very inferior nature of a stick frame house.
My uncle has a 5000 square foot icf house at 10,000 feet in Colorado. He was on vacation for 2 weeks during 20 below zero temperatures he had no heat during that time when he can home the temp was still at 45 degrees inside.
As Devon said, You should vibrate. I built my 30 in stem wall from ICF (foxblock), A benefit Matt didn't directly mention is no forming with metal or wood forms, that have to be bought or rented, erected, stripped, and stored or returned. This a lot of work and expense. Also, there is a company that has a block that is much thicker on the outside than the inside.( "the perfect block" ) the insulation is better, and they claim an effective R-50. Then there is the issue of wiring and plumbing. You cut a channel. You can apply stucco directly to some types of block. Doing your homework is crucial. Think deep.
Tom Tillman, I only know of one ICF maker that does such sizes, and I am not going to say here to give it away to others but its initials are QL if I am not wrong of who you are talking about with various thickness of panels.
That is just one of the hidden charges no one tells you. Impact fees, Traffic fees, Drainage fees, Fire Department fees, School District fees, Water fees, Sewer fees, whatever other BS fees corrupt officials implement. They are usually calculated by the square footage of a building so I don't even want to imagine what their total fees are at 7000 square feet.
@@MrJramirex it's not a hidden charge, they are deep in the country. I'm willing to bet one of the first things people look into when looking for rural property to purchase is whether or not there is power nearby. If the nearest power line is 5 miles away, the power company isn't going to just spend tens of thousands of dollars running power to your house so you can pay them a couple hundred bucks a month. I do agree with you that there are always tons of red tape and made up fees, but this isn't one of them. It could be paying for transformers, lines, labor, poles, permits, obtaining easements, etc. If the power company agrees to bring power to you, they are signing up to maintain those lines forever. You may only use the house 2 weeks of the year, but they have to keep them going year round. No one will be happy if they just abandon the poles in place after you die or move out either. The power utility is there to make money obviously. Even co-ops and municipal utilities can't just connect everyone for free. If I live 5 miles outside of a nearby town, would I expect the town to run water and sewer all the way to my house just for me? They would go bankrupt if they did that for everyone.
@@commoncentstx I'm actually getting a property a little over a mile from the grid...and APS (Scrooges that they are) want $120k to run power to my property. So instead I'm going to be putting in a $10k small solar system and take advantage of living in South Phoenix.
One more thing Matt... About cost. One thing I haven't heard you mention is the impact of design on cost. In the project you show here (which is really nice by the way) the owners have that turret or round section, they also have that safe room/cellar, then the design has 14 - 90 degree corners and 4 - T-wall connections. That is a very labor intensive project. Now, I understand that they are installing the forms themselves, but if anyone else had to pay installers for this job, the installed cost would definitely be more than $15 per square foot of wall. Additionally, the square footage of the walls is typically calculated as if the walls were solid, without doors and windows. Why ? Because it gives a more standardized way of estimating costs. Think about it, installing a solid ICF wall goes really fast compared to a wall where you have many openings for doors and windows. Installing openings in any wall type slows the process down and requires additional materials. If the installed cost was calculated from the square footage of the solid wall portions (after subtracting for doors and windows), it would mean that a wall with a lot of doors and windows would cost less than a solid wall, which is NOT the case. The savings on the concrete do not nearly offset the additional labor and other materials required to properly install the opening frame. When you have any type of opening in a concrete wall, you have to create a lintel and the entire opening has to be engineered, reinforced and properly attached. That takes time which means additional costs. Fortunately, a good ICF manufacturer will provide installers and customers with engineering tables for rebar reinforcement for most typical situations. My installation pricing assumes straight (not curved) walls and usually includes up to 6 corners. Anything beyond that has a fee: Additional corners beyond 6, curved walls, beam pockets, floor system connections for multi-story projects, etc. In short, the fancier the design, the higher the cost. Finally, I wouldn't recommend that someone new to ICF's gets into installing a fancy project like this one UNLESS they are assisted by someone that has sufficient installation experience. That is why some ICF manufacturers will only sell their product through properly trained installers. Otherwise, someone will make a mess and blame it on the brand or on the system (ICF) when the real issue is a poor installation.
I wonder if somebody makes prefab blocks with properly engineered openings as I believe, it is much easier to manufacture them at the factory, then make in the field?
The reason we tilt the wall in slightly, 1/4”-3/8”, is because the braces can easily be pushed against the block to straighten the wall but pulling it back will pull the bracing off since it is screwed into the polypropylene. To be more accurate you tilt the wall slightly towards the bracing.
The ICFs also micro settle and if the bracing is rigidly attached, the ICFs will naturally lean away from the bracing as wall is filled. Prep for this by leaning it into the bracing.
I like to toe in, then adjust after the pour is complete. Braces are designed to push, not pull. If that wall settles "out" during the pour, you could be in for a world of hurt.
I was thinking of sound proofing as a negative. I like to hear the sounds of nature. Then again with a storm raging outside it might be easier to sleep if I can’t hear it.
On the east coast of Canada, friends lost power for a week during a winter storm and their ICF house dropped 2 degrees Celsius over the week. It is very quiet and cozy year round!
In Sothern Europe this is how everything is built. This year my grandmothers house, which has no insulation but is fully concrete - we got hit with 115F for 7 days straight. No air conditioning... the house held under 80F, except for the last day where the concrete was hot by then... since even nights were at 95F or so by the 5th day, the thermal mass started working against us :D but nonetheless, remarkable result. Also, during nights when it gets to around 30F, without heat, the house never gets below 62 F
@@NoRoads2AllRoads If the concrete walls are insulated, say, with styrofoam, you'll be getting only slight temperature fluctuations over long periods of time, e.g. winter/ summer.
@@DobruchT yup I know, thermal mass is great, however during long periods of time like it happened this summer, where we had 115F FOR almost 2 weeks straight and with lows in the 90s is inevitable that the concrete heats up like crazy
R value with ICF is almost meaningless. I know a few people in Michigan with full ICF homes. 1 with a 12" wall and 1 with a 6" wall like this one and NONE OF THEM have heating/cooling issues. The 6" has heating/cooling expenses that's less than 1/2 of their old house and my friend with the 12" doesn't even have a HVAC system !!!! So R value has little meaning with ICF because the thermal mass plays a much bigger role than you realize.
mass can not act as insulation to stop heat transfer. It just acts as a battery in that it stores heat. But you still have to pay to heat that mass. So when the cold weather comes, the concrete will stay warmer for a big longer, but eventually it will be cold and will now require that much more energy to heat it up. You can't save money without stopping energy transfer, and mass does nothing to stop energy transfer. In fact, mass absorbs energy, it acts as a heat sink.
@@marks6663 The concrete sits on a footer which sits on the ground. Bury the wall with four feet of dirt, and insulate outside the footer, and you have a concrete R-1 pipe from the earth's ground temperature (50F year round) into your wall. It's not about the mass of the concrete. It's the fact that it acts as a heat pipe from underground. Then, inside the house, you're only insulating a 20F difference.
We built our ICF house in 1998, BlueMaxx forms. They were bought out be another company. We did build it ourselves. 20+ yrs in Indiana and we love this house. Put a metal roof on it and the house will last 100's of yrs. We even used Icynene spray foam insulation under the roof deck. When the worst storms happen we can't even hear them in the home.
I really wish he'd do a lot more ICF videos. Including wiring, additional insulation, siding or exterior finish, internal wiring, plumbing, installing floors, roofs, etc. Concerns about spalding, internsection of the base etc.
I agree, ICF is great but it has some cons. My wife and I have been working on a Nudura ICF house that we picked up as an unfinished "dried in" project. On Nudura the plastic studs in the wall aren't quite as strong as 2x4's but it has a vertical stud every 8''. The screws will strip out easier than a 2x if you go too hard with drill/impact. I did an experiment with ring shank nails and they will hold, but I concluded screws have superior holding power. You will have to screw everything on (no nail guns). It is slower, more labor intensive, and screws are more expensive than nails. Also you will have to sheath any load bearing interior walls with plywood for hanging anything heavy like cabinets, water heaters etc. Because of it's nontraditional construction: Expect to have difficulty finding qualified contractors to work on it. When they find out its ICF the labor cost automatically increases (they probably assume you're rich, lol). The insulation/thermal mass of the structure is very good. It is extremely quiet. Oh and it's literally bullet proof.
Nails are great only for shear strength where most all screws will fail at while you found out the screws offer great holding power or tensile strength, besides I never heard or seen anyone nail in drywall but have seen the likes of April Wilkerson who installed plywood inside her new shop using screws which allow for easy unfastening to access the interior behind the are for installing such as AC and recently also a ducted vacuum system.
So basically : - Higher upfront cost /sq. Ft of wall. ( but you save on insulation work ). + lower utility costs due to continuous insulation. + lower insurance cost. + lower maintenance cost.
Not really. A 2x4 wall with continuous R30 exterior rockwool insulation over continuous Grace water/vapor barrier is only $7/sf. Here he is quoting ICF as $10/sf without labor. So ICF is still more expensive even including insulation and waterproofing. Utility cost is the same, insurance cost is the same if the threats are fire or earthquake rather than hurricane, and maintenance cost depends on siding rather than structure -- ICF is much more expensive to modify if that counts as part of "maintenance costs". Insects love to tunnel through foam, all the way up to your wood roof structure, so it gives a false sense of security that way.
Matt, great video, you have consistently high quality content. My wife and I built an ICF home in TN two years ago and are very happy with the result. We did all the block work ourselves. 5000ft2 at $80.00 a square foot finished and this is with high end finishes and 10 ft ceilings downstairs 9 ft upstairs. Building costs in our area are around $150.00 ft2. We found the block and rebar very easy to use and install. It is actually fun to work with and because it is so easy to use and so lightweight we found it safer than working with conventional framing materials. Getting a good bracing system is critical and for novice builders I would recommend you hire someone to help with the pour. We had two guys come out the day before and then were there for the day of the pour. Our walls are very straight and plumb. We have a stucco exterior which basically makes this a fireproof home and as a result our insurance rates are lower. We have seen really good performance in terms of utility costs (significantly lower than neighbors with much smaller, conventionally built homes). One thing that ICF does not get enough credit for is that not only is the foam continuous but the concrete is as well. As a result there is little or no air exchange though the walls which helps significantly to make the house more energy efficient. We did not do a basement so our waterproofing was not an issue.
Just think Dude, you sound like a troll. Just shut up and move along! No this is not a 9000 sqft house, it’s 7200. This house has 9000 sqft of total WALL area! The vertical square footage of the WALLS!
Just think in what part of my reply gives you the impression that I don’t know what I’m talking about? you can’t even comprehend simple details from the video! Not to mention you repeated the same comment to multiple people as if they could care less. You’re just babbling at this point.
Just think , the design load for soils pressure laterally varies by clay content of soil, drainage of soil, length and height of wall and engineers training with risk factor. I have many basements installed in Icf that are 10' high x40' long or more using 5 verticals 16"oc. with 4 horizontal or tension 16"oc.in 8" walls. These are all engineered walls. Icf walls hold the bleed water in the concrete and cure the concrete to as much as 20 percent stronger, I pour 4000 psi that regularly tests at 5400-5800 psi in Icfs.
Hi Matt, Nice explanation and video of icf building; Do you have a video of pouring the second story floors, and the upper walls, roof?? I'd love to see it if you have one of each level.
Back in the day as a carpenter apprentice, I worked on big commercial projects where pouring suspended slabs was a regular occurrence. However, the slabs themselves were all engineered - the concrete mix design, the steel reinforcement, beams, columns. The false work (forms, scaffolding etc) itself was engineered to support the massive loads while the concrete cured. I don't know of any residential projects where the main floor (not on grade) was poured in place concrete but I see the ICF vendors make styrofoam forms for the application so it must be feasible now somehow. I'm really curious.
This is a lot of screwing around for a wall that has way too many penetrations. We just pour walls, spray them with a elastomeric and glue 2” ground contact blue board on the outside and then drape heavy Polly from the bolts down to the footing. Super strong, no excess penetrations, highly waterproof,with a fraction of the labor an no Blow Out Risk! You can insulate to your hearts content on the inside!
Good video Matt, I have an ICF BuildBlock home myself and I'd highly recommend it for anyone. My electric bill in one third to a half of conventional home of equal size in my area and that's per Duke Energy Electric! BuildBlock was interested in the article the local news had in the newspaper as well as my electric bill figures and posted in on their website. Thanks!
My local rep from BuildBlock here lead the way! He was instrumental in doing most of the ICF work and I helped him with others in completing the ICF structure and pour. I couldn't have done it without him!
I'm a retired firefighter. I wish I had my pictures of an ICF house that had a fire. Here's what I've seen. Concrete may be considered "non-combustible" but the contents on the room, called the fuel load, are usually not. These materials can burn long enough and hot enough to heat the room up to 800-900 degrees. Spalling occurs as low as 250 degrees F. At 550-600 degrees F concrete will begin to expand. If one side of the wall is expanding at a different rate than the other side serious structural damage can occur. Above 600 degrees concrete will begin to lose structural capacity. Having said that... I must tell you that I love ICF houses. A contractor friend built two of them. His houses are 4 times the size of my house. His year 'round heating and cooling bill is the same as mine. During construction a small tornado went over his house an tore up some trees in his neighbor's back yard. He didn't even know it went by. Love the build show Matt. Thank you for your dedication and hard work.
@@elrolo3711 It's impossible to say because "small internal fire" doesn't give us any information to go on. As you know, fire needs an ignition source, fuel and oxygen. What would happen depends on the availability of those things in the room. Every situation has to be sized up independently. My department once got called out at 2 AM for a small, unattached garage fire. The owner of the garage had large vats of fryer grease which he was converting into bio diesel. The experiment got away on him which made him very popular with the neighborhood because it smelled like a giant burnt french fry for several days. A small fire can generate lots of heat so I would say that if you can put it out with a bucket of water probably nothing. BUT - In any room and contents fire you should consult a professional.
@@slicktires2011 Yes. Drywall will slow down a fire and shield concrete to a degree. What needs to be considered is the fuel load. How much of the contents in the room is flammable? If the fire has no fuel it will move on. If it has fuel and oxygen it will stay in one spot and cook everything.
Matt, excellent video with a good balance of commentary plus and minus. I am a general contractor in New Mexico that only builds with Icf and vary the products from different manufacturers to the requirements of the building based on experience with many different systems. I use one system that has true R values up to R84 for a walk in freezer. The fly wheel effect of heat storage from the concrete in climate zone 5 amounts to about 84 hours of storage of heat versus 14.5 hours for a 2x6 stick frame wall for a 3000 sq. Ft. House so the same amount of heat loss can be measured. Several of my houses have proved this out. People get lost in the hype from different brands but true noticeable difference shows up when you change exterior foam by R10 amounts or 2 1/2" layers. I appreciate the videos you produce for fair and accurate reporting. One other thing the EPS foam gains R value below 30 degrees and other types of foam lose R value. EPS also has a faster wet to dry ability. Dave Taylor Taylord Designs
solar panels don't generate electricity 24/7, they never make sense if there is electricity nearby... only exception - some remote cabin, otherwise it's just a fad, to pat yourself on a back to feel good, pretending you are "green".
@@efreitorhabibulin238 Ummm...Solar+Battery packs are 100% a great power solution (as long as you have good sun through the year). Don't talk bad about solar if you don't know anything about them.
I own a large solar system. 9k sq foot home would cost more than 40k of solar. You are talking what would be normally be a 400 amp service. They will need 2-3 solark12ks 30 kw panels 2000ah battery bank minimum
Good video Matt, I would add that vibrating the concrete during the pour would be advised. As you would not truly know what voids are possibly left in the wall since there are no forms to remove.
On the 12" fox block schools I did electrical on. They vibrated the walls while filling them. Some of the chases especially the wider ones for ducting and windows had large voids under them. Our electrical chases were simply 6" pvc through the walls and we left them in. On the voids found once the forms were pulled the general went back in a poured the voids with quickcrete and a wheelbarrow. Didn't take too much to fix them.
It's most common to use a special icf mix or "pea" mix on the pour which is wetter and thinner with smaller stones to reach bottom plus the pours are limited to 7 feet or so at a time, no matter the height.
It's easy to google. Here' s a calculator porch.com/project-cost/cost-to-frame-a-wall Looks like about $3 to $4 per square foot. Probably more for 10' high walls than for 8' high walls but likely under $4.50.
The 2x6 wall will cost you more as time goes on. You have the thermal break to contend with forever in that wall. You can only stuff so much insulation in a stud wall. The other thing Matt didn't mention is your home insurance is much less because there is so much less to burn. Especially when you use the Quad Lock concrete roofing system.
@@mikebigelow9057 Here in Finland you typically install additional EPS board with aluminium foil outside the stud wall to make a constant thermal break. When you tape those EPS boards together with aluminium tape, you get waterproofing and wind protection at the same time
I'm going to try ghetto ICF...free pallets stuffed with foam packing waste with 1 foot of adobe in between wrapped in layered plastic wrap for the water barrier and hold in cob patches.
I used to deliver this stuff from one of the first companies to offer this system (american polysteel ) and they always had to list the R value as R22 because building inspectors would make them prove any claim over that at a cost of thousands of dollars so they just said R-22 it was probably nearer to a 38 back then and that was 1992 and they were building in Alaska back then It's great to build with but HELL to haul on the flat bed going down the highway a whole load for one house took a 48 ft trailer but only weighed 3800 lbs
Saw a motorcade of flatbeds hauling that shit a few weeks back. They definitely didn't have it tied down properly. Almost caused a massive accident on a 4 lane interstate. I saw a DOT officer just goin off on one of the drivers, then a short bit up the road I see the other trucks pulled over checking and tieing down their load properly.
Yes EPS has a fire retardant in it which slows down the spread of fire but the problem is that it melts near any heat source so if a fire starts inside the building the ESP melts quickly and producers strong fumes In Australia I have worked with ESP panel over 25 years and have seen the results of fire on ESP there's nothing left. In commercial and industrial work in Australia insurance company's are giving better premium cover if we use PIR panel which has a higher fire rating the panel only scaled not incinerate. Do you use PIR in the United States
These panels are known in the US as polyisocyanurate (or simply “polyiso”) at supply stores. I cannot imagine how the terms are actually pronounced because I read them in magazines such as the Journal of Fine Homebuilding or the Journal of Light Construction. Employees at supply stores simply call them foam boards, a term that does not distinguish them from other types of “foam boards” such as polystyrene. I think you have eliminated that probkem in Australia. Do you say “peer boards” for PIR panels? We’ll have to start spreading this one around once you clarify the pronunciation......unless you say P-I-R panels??
Did I hear you correctly that you can build a less expensive basement with a higher R value. . .please explain. . . .in detail. As always great info. thank you, Danny
Its their new radius wall blocks. I know of about every ICF manufacturer, they are the first to introduce preformed radius blocks so no need to cut as required to form a radius.
There is plenty of pre-existing ICF waterproofing videos on here they all show either spray on or stick on membranes, but with any foundation like he said, and as a former waterproofing professional I suggest also installing a outside "french" drainage system with gravel and perforated pipes wrapped in permeable cloth to keep out rocks and other debris for the most part.
It’s not right. The walls are not 9,000 sq ft. If the house is 100x100 which it is not, at 10 feet tall the wall sq footage would only be 4,000 sq feet.
Using long screws priori to pour, when attaching to the foam would result in the screws being anchored in concrete once it's poured, right? I know this is probably unnecessary but I kind of like the idea for extra secure building.
Could you educate me on the difference between ICF and UPS concrete construction? I am seeing good things from the UPS forms and they seem stronger and less expensive than ICF but it is also hard to find information on the UPS concrete homes.
I've got a huge issue!! the house is old Europe brick no insulation, nothing! I want to insulate both sides of it with exterior and interior new build walls. I want to dig out the earth packed floor and add an insulated slab. but the old brick walls will always be wicking cold straight from the earth. How do I do this right without complete tear down and new build?
Used the ICFs for 4ft frost walls here in Maine...radiant heated garage/workshop with large apartment above. Only made sense where I needed to keep the heat in the slab and the strength of the walls to support the weight of a full size cape with dormers both sides of the roof. A full ICF house looks like quite a project! The ICF frost walls worked out great for radiant heated slabs. Cons: Can be a nitemare to pour with all that rebar/stands in the way. Ants love to build homes in the foam...treat the ground and don't bury your old tree trunks on site!
A lot of thermal mass in a wall isn't that great. You want some, but not much. The thermal mass will "average" the temperature between inside and outside. It's like temperature battery in a sense, that leaks or takes energy at rate of the insulation. And more mass there is, slower it happens. So that means the house will get warm and cold slower. This isn't huge thing when weather remains the same for long time. But say you take a week trip to somewhere and turn AC off and it's blasting hot outside. Your house will get very warm inside. Once you get back, it takes forever for AC to cool it back to normal due that thermal mass. The walls will remain hot for long time. Works also other way around, if it's very cold outside and you have heating at minimal. It takes forever to warm it back. That's why you want maximal insulation and minimal thermal mass to make house warm or cool on command. Only in thing like fire place you want maximal thermal mass because you want it to store that heat when you burn something and then release it over time, more mass, longer it keeps releasing energy to the room.
It is not done more because of comfort of builders with a product they do not know. Matt mentioned some of the things you have to pay attention to. Of the four barriers, water is the most important detail. Air is second and ICFs are great air barriers. The foam and concrete are also vapor barriers so you really need to control the breathing of your home with air exchangers. And R value is just one variable in thermal comfort and energy efficiency. Concrete has a high thermal mass so it is a thermal barrier. With styrofoam thermal breaks the wall has a tendency to want to stay the same temperature. Once it is warm or cold it stays there. Same theory behind bermed houses. High thermal mass.
Great video Matt. You covered it well, especially important are the risks of failure due to lack of knowledge and experience. I would strongly recommend to work with a contractor on projects, get product manufacturer installer certification prior to attempting a project. As you say pour day is where all the preparations result in success or failure. My experience was with Blue Maxx in Ont. Now seeing numerous projects using Nudura on the sunshine coast, BC.
Maybe they entertain a lot and have tons of long term visitors. Who cares. If they want it and can afford it, have at it. Personally I would find that too big for a couple of people. 4500 would do it. Three or four bedrooms each with ensuite. An office, a fitness area, a proper sized home theatre, a games room, a large kitchen attached to a great room.
Can you do a visit to The Perfect Block Company in Arizona for a review including one of their build sites? They're listed as the "2020 Product of the Year" in the building industry using recycled Styrofoam. Thank you.
I agree about the Green Building Advisor, I've read articles there where they advocate installing 16" of XPS UNDER the basement floor and to me that is just extreme overkill and a waste of resources to insulate against 53 degree temps.
It's most likely on heated floors, where you have 53 degree temp in the ground but 80 or 90 in the concrete, so you have a constant 40 degree delta T. The heat would move towards the 53 degree ground more then the 70 degree house.
Hi Matt, i was just wonder if you can do a video that compare the cost of ICF price vs the traditional framing 4" stud vs the 6" stud (included all insulated material) and the R value different? Thank you very much for this video it is amazing!
That's neat. thinking about doing offgrid owner built in TN because of the cost of running electricity. Solar overall offgrid is a little more expensive (inverters, batteries, etc.) but with Lithium batteries it's becoming a really competitive option in the sticks. For me a 2k sq ft house with solar (12kw) batteries, etc. was about 20k in materials. Should provide about 36kw per day in summer and store about 3 days of electricity. That's using effficient appliances, and some big loads on propane.
Matt I enjoyed your video on ICF homes, in 2008 my wife and I completed our ICF home in Marathon Florida as you well know hurricane Irma struck us a year ago I have some very compelling videos during the course of this hurricane as well as video of myself in my attic in which i used closed cell foam on underside of the roof structure and I know you’ve been a strong advocate of closed cell foam as well . I am a third Generation contractor from Western New York if you’re interested in seeing the videos or discussing ICF further don’t hesitate to contact me,
cmm170526 Matt we have a two bedroom two bath guest apartment in our home if you would like to spend a couple days in the Florida Keys this winter would be fine
This is more or less how commercial high-rise construction is done overseas except they form and place all the floors and then "attach" insulated foam to the outside. With this system I can see huge problems with the forms moving around and getting out of plum or even having blow outs during the concrete placement phase which would be a total disaster. You would have to shore and brace this stuff to the maximum degree possible. However if you can get it straight and plum this type of construction would be far superior to standard 2X6 construction. Much easier and quicker to put together and 10 X stronger. I really like it.
I believe that the insurance rates for an ICF home are significantly less also. * Check with your insurance provider for info formation on your area. * Another potential positive to an ICF build .
Just think, IN WHAT UNIVERSE DO YOU NEED A 12" concrete wall? maybe you should learn how concrete walls work before you blindly mouth off constantly the same shit post, ALL of the projects we have done basement walls on hillsides have all been 10" walls. there are MANY factors that effect the thickness and reinforcement requirements of concrete walls, we often add "deadmen" (a 3-4 foot long concrete wall sticking out perpendicular to the wall) as a method of reinforcing long walls and we are in the North Georgia Mountains dealing with similar soil conditions. and the SIZE of the house has got fuck all to do with the power requirements of the house, sure thats probably a bit undersized, but thats the beauty of solar, you can expand if you find you need more, when I was living alone in the house my mom had up for sale after she moved to Florida I moved down into the basement, swapped the old light bulbs for LED's and NEVER used more then 10 Kw TOTAL each day (maybe 12-13 on Laundry day, fucking dryers), if you have Propane you can use that for Heat, you can get a Dryer that runs off Propane, Gas Ranges in your kitchen that are fully Propane, Propane tankless water heaters, you basically end up with your LIGHTS, TV's, Computers, Refrigerator and the blower fan of the central air is all you gotta power in Winter and you can get a 5.3 Kw Solar Panel Kit from Home Depot for 10k before tax credits which will give you at least 20 KwH a day worth of power, which goes a LONG LONG way when BIG SCREEN TV's use a mere 100 watts and light bulbs use like 4-6 watts, around here summer time A/C usage is one of the biggest power usages (are power bill doubles in the summer), it's also common practice to have a backup generator that runs on the propane in case of extended periods of low sun. still they are HALF the cost of just having a power line RUN to the house, never mind paying for power all the years they live there, so they got room to spend a bit more if they need to.
You can do the same with proper frame house. I live in northern climate. Use mineral wool for insulation. My walls as follows from the inside 1. Double 2x plasterdoard 2. Steel frame 3" with mineral wool insulation between 3. Vapor barrier 4. OSB 5. 8" main frame (20 cm) with mineral wool insulation between (two layers 4" each for overlaying) 6. 2" horizontal studs with mineral wool insulation between 7. 2"vertical studs mineral wool insulation between 8. 1"Wood fiber board with bitumen layer for air and water protection (0.042 W/mK) 9. 1 1/4" air vent and wooden cladding . Total U value- 0.102 (W/m2K) including wood thermal bridging. But its estimated that orientation of studs doesn't change. In my case orientation changes so thermal bridging is gone. And this is cheaper than ICF :) Maybe in country, but trust me we are 98% brick and concrete builders :). For us frame houses is innovative and smart building technology :). With this concrete non sense your are going backwards not forward. For hot climates might be different, I don't know. But for me, when in winter temperature drops bellow -20C and summers are warm but dry, I used this technology and I know that I will have passive house for the price of brick or concrete non sense with lower U-value. Also, the smell, no humidity. My overall wall thickness is almost 20". With 2x plasterboard and independent steel frame from inside I don't care about fire or moving walls.
I am actually planning on building my own cabin. Around 700sq foot to retire in. (Also here in Georgia). My first thought was to pay someone to dry it in then I can do the finish work. But I like this idea. i will have to do more research on this. I may take that leap.
Many home owners have done it themselves for new home of a size they can handle alone or with some reliable enough helping hands, some have even did add on renovations with ICF foundation DIY style. Some of the manufacturers have DIY DVD, they also may list or provide via request for Seminar information which you can attend for a small fee for a day or two of hands on how to. They also have channels on here that show some how to stuff. Then again it depends on the extent of the build and how complex it is that determines how much you can DIY without a team of installers.
Matt, Welcome to Georgia! Really enjoyed the video, the R value comments and the off grid aspect to this project are interesting. The whole time you are presenting I kept wondering how those blocks were going to be waterproofed... glad you addressed that and look forward to the next installment. Want to wish homeowners/builders best of luck in completing their home on time and within budget. I do wonder how they financed this project ...
I live in a tornado area. The thing is, even in tornado areas, the probability of a tornado destroying your house is extremely low. I've never even seen a tornado first hand.
I've seen a small tornado cut through a cinder block wall like a hot knife through butter. Here in Florida, we had a tornado during hurricane Ivan. It ran through a 30 unit motel and you could actually see the V-shape of the tornado through every single wall! It split every single room in two, as it moved down the length of the building. Maybe ICF is stronger, but I would hate to be out that money if it isn't. Imagine the cost of demolishing, if it was damaged.
There is a big difference between a poured reinforced concrete structure and a cinder block wall in terms of strength. I live in oklahoma and the local high school contracted a company out of texas called monolithic domes to build their new cafeteria as a reinforced concrete dome. The resulting building is strong enough that it serves as a community storm shelter and is rated to handle an ef5 tornado. While I wouldn't trust ICF to that extent (the roof is a major weak point) it should handle the much more common ef 2 and 3 tornado with relatively minor damage assuming you build the roof properly. Windows are still going to be an issue however you build and the cafeteria I mentioned has none for that reason. As for why not all houses are built like this here. The area damaged by a tornado is relatively small, it is nothing like a hurricane, even with a monster ef5 you end up with maybe a few dozen square miles of devastation and the vast majority of tornadoes are not that powerful. Generally it makes the most sense to just have a safe room (usually a bathroom or closet on new construction) to hide in instead of building the whole house like a bunker on the off chance you get hit by a tornado.
I've been installing icf all my life I grew up doing it I'm building my spec houses out of it and am killing the wood framers because their material has gone up drastically but mine hasn't gone up much
Hi Matt you have some great ideas and I've actually used them on my jobs. I install a lot of hardie board and have installed over icf with furring strips and 1"1/2 roofing nails and found over time the board's started to sag I've also screwed it directly to the icf with much better results . There is some great products being used in my area (ottawa canada) but with no thought on what types of material is being secured to it. I would love to see a video or hear something from you on how to address these types of issues. Cheers
Build Block has their hard points at 6 inches on center, some others have strips spaced every 12 oc, one has panels with fastening strips molded in spaced at 12" o.c and their ties also add connection points with the ties have two points just 4 inches apart. Never saw anything in a hardee board brochure or their website saying it could be fastened the way you first did as you found out why, Neighboring business has some old siding removed and replaced with hardee board fastened flat to the wall, they have yet to paint it and now have white vinyl and a pale tan like hardee section.
@@Joshua79C Every siding manufacturer would prefer if there product is installed over strapping for breathability and When doing so with HB I always get unsatisfactory results. My comment was more towards new product being used with no thought for the next guy coming along
watched April Wilkerson build her new shop and she fastened the HB directly to the wall, no strapping/strips, I never read anywhere in the instructions it has to be fastened with strips behind it, like I previously said. Never seen any siding installed this way with the necessity for strapping to give it "breathing" room when fastening.
Joshua79C C I don't understand furing strips on an ICF. The only reason would be for breathability/drainage. But it makes no sense to me for HB or most siding. Furring strips would be for providing an attachment point, and with any decent ICF, it will have the attachment points build into the form. Material cost, labor, and increased failure don't seem worth the risk of pseudo-science benefit of breathability/drainage.
This is not a DYI project. Best leave it up to people with experience. Once you start pouring concrete there is no going back. Has to be done right the first time.
Spend the money on a 3D drawing thats drawn to realistic specs and not just for looks then build ICF also the drawing should come with a stage by stage what to do / project management and then and only then you the home owner can take on a build. once everything is level, squared and plumb the finishes will be easy and look great. many homeowners take on projects and they look good from far but far from good. 12 years as a carpenter / builder and i am still learning
Doesn’t expanded styrene degrade over time and moisture go through it? Does anyone make ICFs with extruded styrene or polyiso? Wouldn’t that be better?
What are you talking about. XPS is much better but twice more expensive. EPS is not resistant to humidity and this concrete hauses are humid as hell. Concrete sucks all the water like a sponge and doesnt release it for a long time. Anyway, for a hot climate its a good choice. For cold climate wood is much more comfy.
EPS far as I know and he clearly stated correctly it does retain water ike spongy XPS and ISO as he showed how much the spray insulation absorbed and held in the water when he did that video, I would prefer EPS over anythign else its cheaper ad dries out fast and often used in highway construction jobs to help deaden noise and as a filler as it does not degrade, Where as ISO and XPS, once it is crushed or damaged it will not spring back and they cost more due to their processing using extrusion, EPS or expanded styrofoam is expanded using only steam through the mold which the pellets are first poured into and not requiring any injecting.
Hey, A couple questions from a. Novice: 1. Disaster: I don’t see the foam withstanding a flood. How hard/costly would it be to replace the foam alone? What about finishing a basic indoor drywall wall? 2. Remodelling: Is it possible to have ICF on 3 sides of the house with stick frame for the 4th side, in order to build a possible add-on or remodel in the future? Would it make the ICF sides weaker? Would the stick frame and ICF connect well? Would it be harder to waterproof at the connection points of the walls? ✌️
IF you look at the cost for a traditional formwork system for bare concrete with no easy to drill into fastening points like ICF has then you are going to run into form rental along with the time to set up and take down which adds to labor time with its heavy pieces of form sections and many fastening ties and screw clamps. Then also he did say he was basing on concrete price in TX where he is from at $5/sqft as opposed to how much cubic yard which is how it is priced per volume. the IC forms themselves are lower cost than the concrete or even perhaps the rebar. Now subtract the labor and you get a low price when you owner-builder or DIY and may want to take a course or two offered by many of the form manufacturers through one of their certified installers if not directly for a minor cost of say $150 as one commenter (Vancouver Island Waterjet) mentions they paid for a Nudura (ICF manufacturer) seminar.
Thanks Matt for doing this video. Given your years of high-quality construction, I appreciate your take on this building technique and your list of pros and cons. Looking forward to the next one. BTW, there are concrete additives that make concrete nearly water proof, like Hycrete. I don't know why basement foundations do not use Hycrete or another product like it. I'm not in construction, but my only guess is the extra cost. Also, these products help prevent the steel rebar from rusting, too. I'd love to know why. Thanks again.
I had an engineer tell me that with ICF you don't need to do a pier and beam foundation because the entire building will be a concrete box, therefore you don't need to have a really deep foundation given you have good soil. He said you just need rebar slab with a maximum 16" deep beams and give it good drainage. Can anyone attest to this ?
I think you should consider where you live as well. Here in Canada you would probably have issues building anything bigger then a garage without footings below frost level.
B Johnny , ICF forms at least from those who make wider than 12 inch cores using extender ties in a knockdown type would be very useful for forming a footing, just make sure you fill in the space between the top of the footer to where the wall terminates to insulate it and run some additional foam at least 4 foot away in a apron from the wall to create a frost barrier for at or near surface footings. Heck one ICF manufacturer provides the supplies needed to build your own footing forms bottom and sides only though and you just have to assemble it on site yourself with some industrial or stronger foam adhesive than you might use on buck foam which a few manufacturers make as well.
Water proofing is something that has to be done on any wall so saying that water proofing is a down side is false. Any time you insulate the concrete under grade is a plus in a cold or hot climate. When talking about the cost of the ICF block you must take in consideration the cost of insuation and labor also because, insulation cost and labor are done when you put the ICF walls up. The money save in a long run with ICF blocks will out way the cost of the ICF blocks many tumes over in just heating and cooling cost. Remodeling cost are more above grade but, most ICF blocks are below grade.
Yes, not so much to do remodel wise below grade..that is unless the wall failed in some way and then the house would have to be lifted if constructed out of traditional framing or steel framing even.. unless the entire home is ICF then lifting is out of the question. The only true remodeling in a basement is the interior if being used for living space.
Thanks for your help Matt, your videos are very informative. I'll be doing a 35' high ICF wall soon and the info learned from your video has boosted my confidence. Thanks again.
Matt - Thank you. Know you have a healthy skepticism of ICF construction - am sure well earned - and based at least in part on the realities of inexperience by the needed trades to execute. Ironically - its sound/airseal qualities - two areas you near and dear to you - are unmatchable. One suspects that if you were to build 3 or 4 of these - you would develop some superb hybrid of traditional stick + ICF! Much appreciated you getting out of the comfort zone a little to start talking about these - would love to see some more and some varied ones that would uncover some best practices to address trouble spots. Thanks again!!!
It is rather ironic that Matt calls himself claims he is a "building scientist", and yet ignores the science of the superior advantages of building with ICFs: time, cost, efficiency, durability, safety... etc.
So funny to see this, I've been planning my ICF house with my architect and builder for the past 2 months. It's been fun, I can't wait to live in a Yeti cooler. :)
mytreesloth I have my order in with Gigacrete right now. It should be delivered in about three weeks. I decided to go with this type of construction because it appeared to be much faster and easier. The interior and exterior plaster also eliminates drywall inside and any wrapping on the outside. 8" of eps with the plaster coatings give an R factor of 36. I hope to have my house completed by the end of January. This construction also has survived the hurricanes in the islands. I thought that Icf was great, but I thought Gigacrete was a better method. We'll see, my construction starts soon - foundation has been poured.
@@davidjenjustice5517 I'm still in the conception phase, hoping to be started by January lol.. I'm sure each system has pros and cons like anything else. I wish you the best of luck on your build! I can't wait to stop drawing on graph paper and actually start doing something.
Canadians have YEARS of data on the R value and overall energy performance. They even give a offset for costs. Plenty of data that this out performs any stick built house.
The only wood needed if not going with the builddeck ICF decking system for flooring and also interior walls, unless the metal framing is sufficient for ones needs if ICF decking for floor was used in which case no interior support wall is needed.
Building systems fascinate me, it reminds me of building wood forts when I was a kid and figuring out insulating certain areas to sleep in. Just wish the government would leave their hands out of it and let me build whatever I want lol
A great video with lots of good points! No matter what is used as a basement or wall system , you will need to waterproof your door and window openings. There would be no difference there. In a poured concrete wall system, when either forms or ICF's are used, if 4,400 psi or higher concrete is used, the concrete is considered waterproof at that point and no other waterproofing is needed. I am planning on using ICF when I build my new home and I am planning on using 5,000 psi concrete for my walls. SUPERIOR WALLS use a poured concrete wall that is poured in a factory and are set up and bolted together on site and they have a warranty for their basements. Look at concrete dams.
Ive been looking into ANTI TRADITIONAL home making methods as well. Im from San Diego. Its time to rejuvenate the worlds forests and cut our dependencies on wood based products. Im not sure ICF is the way however. My method is different but MUCH easier to build, quicker, cheaper and more builder friendly. Im glad major youtubers like this are bringing attention to non traditional methods. IMAGINE how clean the air would be without deforestation? Would it balance the climate? slow the rate of or reduce natural disasters effects?
