Oof, that's a tough one. I personally do consider Catherine a MT spin-off, mainly due to the choice and balance part of the whole experiance being similar to the Law and Chaos alignment system of SMT, just rather than deciding the fate of all of humanity, you're picking which girl gets Vincent's Mara.
@@okagetheshadowking Yeah he was in Persona 3 Portable as an easter egg, but it's hard to say if Portable is the canon version of the game and it never explicitly said it was Vincent. It could have been just someone who looks like him and has trouble with women as a reference to Vincent
Just a little nitpick, but the "Shin" in Shin Megami Tensei uses the kanji for true, not the kanji for new. So Shin Megami Tensei is more like "True Goddess Reincarnation."
Yes, you are correct but during the 90s, the "真" (True) was widely used in entertainment mediums and became a trend. Some creators used "真" as replacement to "新" (New) to meet the trend and to attract more new customers and new fanbase. Besides SMT, there are manga series, games and even Kamen Rider that use "真" just to ride on the trend wagon during that time. So in this case, both literal translation of "True" and the other intended meaning "New" are correct.
The Persona/Devil Summoner timeline splits from the SMT timeline because Gotou (SMT1 character who also exists in the Persona timeline) was arrested before SMT1 even had a chance to take place.
@@gitgud3245 SMT If...Is a alternate reality to SMT 1 where the apocolypse didn't happen and Devil Summoner and Persona are cannon to if... therefore the Persona series is set in an alternate reality to mainline SMT
@@hannahcullen196 And adding to this the Kuzonoha Detective agency is present in Persona 2 along with the SMT if....Protagonist Tamaki, theirs even mention of the protagonist of Digital Devil Story/Megami Tensei in a soidequest in the game/
@@hannahcullen196 Come to think of it, doesn't that mean all of the Persona characters exist in the mainline SMT universe except there they're just regular people?
It uses the same demons, they have the same background (Persona compendium is basically a demon compendium like in every game of the franchise, Igors Velvet Room is like the church(?, sry don't know the english name) in the main series). Also in SMT3: Nocturne it's implied that every game plays in its own universe and there is the Great Will connecting all of them. Persona is one of the many universes, I'd say. (sry for my bad english). I didn't know the third game is called "Nocturne", because here in Germany it was released under the name "SMT3: Lucifer's call".
Persona is, and always will be MT. It doesn't matter if Persona has outgrown MT, I don't see why it "has to leave". Also I have to agree with you on the western naming convention of the spin offs, it's just nice to have all the games under the same umbrella, I find it aesthetically pleasing.
Eh, I don't. I think the Shin Megami Tensei moniker being slapped onto everything just makes things more confusing, considering the difference between Megaten vs SMT.
I wanna say Persona 1-2 are true Megami Tensei spinoffs because they were intended to be that way. Persona 3 however was intended as soft reboot to the series that eventually gave it it's own identity. You see Bethesda did the same thing for the Fallout series with Fallout 3. And the reason they labeled it as a numbered entry in the series is because they wanted to market the game to both old and newcomers to the series. Honestly it's really hard for determine what Persona 3-5 are. They're like a reboot/sequel series to Persona 1-2 which were spinoff/successors to SMT If which itself is a spinoff/sequel to SMT 1-2.... Those roots are just too deep. It's probably why Atlus USA removed the SMT title from P4G onwards, They didn't want newcomers to be confused anymore. They also intended to aim Persona to a different audience, while other games like Soul Hackers and Devil Survivor are more aimed at veterans to SMT then newcomers which is probably why they kept the SMT title for them specifically. I think it's accurate to call Persona 3-5 a very loose spinoffs of MegaTen but not as much as Persona 1-2 or Devil Summoner series or Digital Devil Saga since those are much closer to MegaTen then Persona 3-5.
@@Spieleder1992 That depends on what you're looking at. Tonally and thematically, DDS is closer to an SMT game than Persona 3-5. The only part of Mainline SMT that Persona really keeps is fusing and negotiating with demons, though that's tweaked to be similar DDS in that the player is the demon instead of having them as an ally (Since Persona stats transfer to their user they aren't considered entirely separate entities). Of course their mechanics are similar because they're the same franchise, but DDS is extremely similar to Nocturne, so I'd definitely consider it closer to mainline than Persona.
@@mindmaster323 Thematically Persona 4 New/Seperate world similiar to Nocturne. Persona 5 changing the enviroment/comunity similar to Nocturne. Creating a new world/timeline in Person 2 DDS feels more like an FF game fused with demons
So what I'm getting is that ATLUS has no idea how to keep up a consistent naming convention. I don't think that Persona completely replacing Mainline is a real risk, ATLUS probably wouldn't want to deal with the backlash of that. I think Persona is not only a part of the Megami Tensei series, but is a spinoff of Mainline SMT. The reason I think this is because of Persona's roots in If..., which is a Shin Megami Tensei game.
Knowing how much the Persona fan is defending the company, I wouldn't put the thoughts of Atlus reducing SMT to just gacha game and arcade machines out of the possibility
Persona for all reason is a freaking SMT game. Ideas and themes from other games have shown up in the Persona series. The SMT demons show up in Persona and not to mention it can be debated that Persona shares a timeline with a Shin Megami Tensei game. Shin Megami Tensei if.... since Tamaki Uchida the protagonist from SMT: if... shows up in both Persona 2 games. Doesn't matter if Persona has taken a different direction then mainline SMT. It still has SMT in it's blood and nothing will ever change that.
@@opadrip I mean. Are the start of Persona 5 we are handed some heavy topics like suicide, sexual harassment, and hinted rape. Maybe not hail satan type of heavy, but at the end you're basically killing God... so...
So Persona 3 and 4 have SMT in american title, but P5 don't... even though it's most SMT-ish game of the persona franchise, with demon negotiations and all that?
As long as Persona continues to use Kaneko's Demon designs, the same magic and skill naming, and the whole theme of fighting some god being, it's part of the Megaten series no matter how much Atlus tries to alienate it.
@@mariopkmnzelda thanks for puting into words why this argument bugs me. Bravely default and Octopath travelers are made produced by squarenix. They were also both inspired by and made as a spiritual successor to different final fantasy games. But no one calls them spin-offs because they're so different from final fantasy that no one sees them as a spin-off.
How's that doesn't make sense? Do these people even know about the series and the concept of multiverse, multi-timeline that the series introduced? Apparently not.
SMT If...Is a alternate reality to SMT 1 where the apocolypse didn't happen and Devil Summoner and Persona are cannon to if... therefore the Persona series is set in an alternate reality to mainline SMT
I see too many people here misunderstanding the point of this video! This video isn't about if Persona is Shin Megami Tensei, but more so about if Persona is a Megami Tensei game at all. I say it is Shin Megami Tensei ether way because Persona is a side story from Shin Megami Tensei if.
I don't think you can ever disassociate SMT, Persona, or Devil Survivor from each other as they all stem from the initial world built. Each game caters to a different group and each has its strengths and weaknesses. I for one started with Digital Devil Saga, learned about SMT and went from there. As long as new fans are drawn in by curiosity and a welcoming fanbase (because we all know some fans are actively hostile to newcomers), the entry point is irrelevant. For me it is easier to get someone into a series like Persona and move slowly into more mainline SMT games when they have the maturity to deal with the subject matter. Some of the initial purchases of SMT games were not for me at the time as I was looking for something more casual as I started playing in my 20s. Fifteen years later, I'm rediscovering them for better and worse. Oftentimes it takes a bit of personal growth to appreciate something in your past.
I fully admit I'm fairly new to fandom of persona and megami tensei. I started with persona 4 and I have to say ultimately i think the mainline megami tensei games have a problem with accessibility in the western market. Even with the persona 2 split it's possible to have all of the main persona games with relative ease. Megami tensei is a web of games that don't always make it easy to figure out what games are connected and which ones aren't. I know I experienced that when I started the branch out. I also think that it's very possible for persona to exist as an independent franchise since in west to casual game players it already is.
Totally is. I always envisioned it as a Marvel Universe type thing. SMT, Devil Survivor, Devil Summoner, Persona, they're all the same series, just spinoffs.
I think it is unnecessary for them to have SMT on the title of Persona games. Neither donkey kong, yoshi nor wario games have mario in the title, and Persona is more established as a series than the other spin-offs.
Yeah,but series like Yoshi,Wario and Donkey Kong use defrent enemies and mechanics and now all of this series have spin-offs,persona has them too,but main line still uses SMT demons.
@@gigawarman12 The official reason is because pretty much all the people who worked on those games aren't with Atlus anymore, so they don't feel comfortable using them anymore outside of the PSP remakes.
It's been argued that the events of P2:IS causes a duplication of the universe, so the very first Persona Timeline game is P2:EP and the reason the series shifts to the Personas instead of demons and the war between YHVH and Lucifer is that this split-off world created by the events of Innocent Sin separated it entirely from them.
Very interesting, I found Persona 5 and fell in love with it. Just completed strikers and needed another fix and that brought me to SMT so I think it might be the other way around that maybe Persona may actually revive SMT. Anyway looking at starting SMT nocturn today as my first SMT game wish me luck. Many thanks for the content 🙏.
So yeah best reply frm reddit bout same question "are your parents still you parent even if youre more succesful than them?" But yeah if we dont consider persona as a spin off of smt then we shouldnt consider devil summoner as a spinoff too but yeah smt is very notorius for having lots of spin off to the point you can make a family tree now
I think the reason a lot of the spin-off games drop the SMT name for their sequels is because they assume that people are aware of the first game in the spin-off series and would by extension know that the game is connected to SMT, so labelling it as such isn't necessary. Also keeps the game titles from getting too long. Imagine if we had a game called "Shin Megami Tensei: Persona 4 Arena: The Ultimate 2".
I mainly just wonder in persona, is it a prequel? An alternate universe? Regardless of that whenever the world is about to end what are the other pantheons doing? What are the gods and demons doing? And if it is a prequel then what happened to the Velvet room? I think of the Velvet room as humanity's representatives in supernatural affairs. Unlike Lucifer or YHVH, Philemon and Igor and the velvet room attendants are fully on team humanity, so if they still exist it would be nice to hear their thoughts. The way I see it, Yaweh and those who serve him has apathy for humanity, he literally says as much, it's his way or complete destruction. Lucifer seems to have sympathy for humankind, he sees humans as being in a similar position to demonkind and in SMT 2 he says that he wanted to stop what the Messians were doing, but he knew that Satan would stop it since the Messians were following a false God, so instead he secured the Abyss. However Igor and the Velvet room attendants have empathy for humanity. Humanity's struggle is their struggle, they will always aid the wild card as much as they can. Apathy from angels, Sympathy from demons, Empathy from the velvet room attendants.
Persona follows the alternate timeline of SMT if, in this timeline SMT 1 first arc happens but the great cataclism doesn't. So in the hidden part of society demon summoners exist. Outside of that they are disconected, outside of the trivia that in the devil summoner games Victor does the fusion, and it is imply he made Igor before Philemon took care of him. Outside of that SMT 1 characters are just living their lives normally, unless you want to head canon that some of the confidant characters might be the SMT 1 cast as adults or something.
Persona 1&2 play after SMT If, an alternative timeline of SMT1. P3,4 and 5 play after the true neutral ending of SMT5 which on its own plays after SMT3s true demon Ending.
All of Megami Tensei is a multiverse, the Amala multiverse. Each universe is created when something that could have happened differently actually happens, even through your superficial dialogue choices. Persona arises from a variation of the original Shin Megami Tensei that gives rise to Shin Megami Tensei If, and from there the different good and bad endings of each Persona installment branch out.
Persona is not a single universe, but a variety that is detached from SMT If (and by extension SMT 1) to each option that is given to the player (kill Rioji, burn Adachi's evidence, expose the Phantom Thieves)
I started in MegaTen franchise thanks to Shin Megami Tensei, I was into the first game, Nocturne and IV... After that I started to investigate and then I knew Digital Devil Story Megami Tensei and Persona. Persona is just like Devil Survivor or Devil Summoner for me since SMT was my entry point and I can`t help but consider it the main and more important series. I`m glad you don´t put Persona over SMT. So I subscribe immediately.
I kinda wish atlus would do a 2D/3D fighter with all their smt series(so basically a game with all the series from the video). Like imagine the Demi Fiend fighting the demi kids(smh)...or Joker fighting lucifer....just a random thought.
@@rewoperomdeeni5340 It would be, but it’d also be awesome lol. Maybe limit it to a character or two from each series, and more popular ones get a few more representatives?
It seems like this debate would be easier to address by just making a distinction between being part of a franchise vs being part of a series. I think of it as Smt Persona Devil summoner Devil survivor Digital devil saga Etc... Are distinct series within the Shin Megami Tensei franchise.
The takeaway I got from this video is that in North America both Shin Megami Tensei and Persona are part of the lucrative and popular Jack Bros. series, named for it's flagship first title.
It's a part of the megami tensei franchise and a spin off of the SMT games. It's not an SMT game in of itself. It's like what DDS and Devil Survivor are, just spin-off series
It's actually criminal how alot of people are actually familiar with the persona line of games and see it as it's own series while megaten is left in obscurity
@@danmcmurphy2823 SMT V was first non Persona game well advertised in West (mainly thanks for Nintendo advertising and publishing this game in Europe).
They way I see it another good comparison would be to Final Fantasy. Final Fantasy games differ heavily on gameplay and story to the point where some titles are nothing like the others, yet they still all have certain elements that make it Final Fantasy, like recurring monsters, music, character abilities, mascot creatures, character races, themes etc. And with these you can soon tell it's Final Fantasy even if the game in many ways feels completely different to the others. In the same way we can see that Persona is Megami Tensei even if playing a bit different.
@@calebgoodman2076 Care to Link it here? Of course Its for Research Purposes No Perverted Intention whatsoever and If you Do Something Like Rickrolling me or Someone else did it. i'll have you know that i will haunt you in your Worse nightmares :)
I always thought the SMT games tended to take place at the end of a world and start of a new one. Persona I felt was more what happens in the middle of those time lines. The powers are faded weaker. Shadows of their true selves if you will. Only able to exist in set times like the dark hour or particular places.
I think the title of Megami tensei was only taken from persona 5 for commercial purposes, in the idea that, shortening the number of games in a franchise can make it more attractive. An example is the Fate stay night franchise. due to the huge number of material in the franchise, many people just turn a blind eye to anything new that is released, many use the excuse that the franchise is confused by this, and that they do not know the correct order of where to start. And perhaps with that in mind, shortening Persona / MegaTen to two "different" franchises, would be more attractive, even because even taking the name of megami tensei from the title, the game still has characters and monsters on both sides, it is almost impossible not to discover that, since the two franchises are part of the same universe
i consider to run along side smt because of the demons it uses yea its a spin off and has done amazing with out the help of smt (p4 brought me into the serries) and i find nocturn p1 and p2 to be my favourights alth i need to finish them i think people that split the fan base like that are weird we both like turn based demon rpgs lol great vide love hearing your sexy voice
My thing is they're putting all their eggs in a basket with Persona Id like a revolution of Raidou games as well, thematically speaking that's my favorite it spin-offs and I can only imagine how well it'd do with persona makeup.
Short answer: yes "Long" Answer: The SMT If protagonist appears in the first persona games, you literally can go to the SMT If school in Persona 2 and the Kuzunoha family is mentioned in P4(there are more references but I don't remember all of them)
Each Xeno subseries works well on its own and can be enjoyed independently. You can enjoy Xenoblade without knowing that Xenosaga or Xenogears even exist. However, if you enjoy one, chances are that you'll enjoy the others, as they're enjoyable for similar reasons. It therefore makes sense to group them together. Similarly, Persona has a lot in common with SMT, at least gameplay-wise. The presentation is different, and there are a lot of elements unique to Persona, but at its core, both are centered around long-term planning and party building.
Imagine if Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles became more popular than Final Fantasy. And then later just call it Crystal Chronicles, but the same elements still tie them together and using the less popular mainline name is more a disadvantage now. Personally I think that’s fine. People will eventually know where the games DNA comes from if they dig in enough. It really comes down to marketing the familiar name which at the time SMT was more established and familiar.
before i even watch the video i can answer. it used to be called Shin Megami Tensei Persona and SMTP 2 etc. No it is not part of the main iteration but it is part of the same universe. a spinoff if you will. edit: I still have the playstation disc named Shin Megami Tensei Persona and SMT is also written in the booklet of persona 3 which I own. Also SMT Nocturne. didnt have dante in it though. edit 2: I think persona can survive on its own. it's more of a social interaction visual novel with action/rpg element than an actual straight up rpg like most of SMT. Not saying Persona should replace SMT but rather they can coexist just like up until now. The essence is the same, the interpretation is different. Persona is more about confronting what's inside us type of experience while SMT is more about confronting outside elements. Same goes with Pokemon. Some game tells the tale of a future champion travels while other are more focused on the pokemon themselve and their live in nature. Also using them as balls in a pinball machine but hey... They exist in the same universe, not in the same place at the same time. SMT basically means Reincarnation of the absolute Godess. In other word: it's friggin higurashi type of resets for every story. Same stuff, different telling. Same characters, different events. Same day, different cataclysm. Same place, different people. the only common factor even between SMT themselve is... you said it, the demons. And just like pokemon with Dragon not being dragon and fairy type suddenly added to a well known pokemon... SMT also saw a lot of changes to the demons and balance. Just like Megido spell got super nerfed in Person 3 Portable while skill gain got easier and faster. All in all, I think it's fine as it is. Maybe a better guideline in order to better discernate every title and a stop to mobile gaming...? wishful thinking here.
The way I see it: P1 and 2 are basically just another SMT (and we know they're in the If timeline). I haven't played eternal punishment, but from what I read, the universe seems to have restarted or something? I don't know. But after that the Persona series is their own thing, and the only one of those games that feels more like a SMT game in terms of themes and story is the third one. After that it becomes its thing, being so far away from the original timeline.
I find it amusing how Persona 4 is the last one to use the SMT title when that's the one where Izanami, the titular Megami, shows up and then leaves the planet
Awesome video. Smt needs to be slapped on persona games. Same demons, they need to be apart of the series. I'm playing soul hackers 2 rn, and well... same demons. Anything involving the demons needs to express consideration of the franchise. Just mo.
I'm convinced that Devil Survivor is just Persona 2 from an alternate universe >red color scheme >tone somewhere between newer Persona games and mainline SMT >DeSu 2 is blue and has totally-not-social-links >tile-based combat could be said to be an expansion on Persona 1's combat >Megami Ibunroku
oh i meant to put smt x fe trailer, i never got the game however, i have heard that the game's actually pretty good, but that it's different from smt and fe and is more like its own game with nods to smt and fe in it
@@jinkisaragi874 it is decent game. too bad it was using SMT and FE as its name which in turn made the expectation of the fan base very high. if only it does not use FE nor SMT on its name the fanbase might be more lenient
now if only we could get Devil Summoner PSP fanslation as well. x-x a shame that one had YEARS to get translated and localized, but never got a glance from Atlus back then. (it is very fun, even beside its successor Soul Hackers)
I’m just gonna go ahead and say that it’s mostly the same franchise, and that Persona 1-2 are spinoffs to SMT. However, 3-5 are basically their own thing. You could make as many theories and ideas as you want about how it’s all connected, but...for simplicity’s sake, they’re different things. The only thing connecting them after P2EP are the monsters. Idk. I first discovered the series when Persona 5 blew up, but I wanted to see if there was a way for me to play the games in order before getting in on the 5th one. Then I noticed the SMT title and looked up what that was about, and then I found out the series was supposed to be a spinoff, and then I found out about all of the other spinoffs that were related to the whole series, and then...I just kind of gave up. I got P5 and loved it, and was extremely pleased to find that you needed no prior knowledge of Shin Megami Tensei or even Persona to understand the game. In short, if you want to play a game connected to the SMT name, just play it. You’ll be fine. Don’t worry about it, and definitely don’t get turned off from it all.
I played and love Persona 5 but how I got into the entire Megami tensei games was Devil Survivor 2. Now I am trying to get my hands on the other Megami Tensei games because they look so good and I dont want to Ignore these games. But knowing that we are hearing nothing about Shin Megami Tensei 5 is worrying to me. I am happy P5 is getting alot of attention but I really want to see the new Shin Megami Tensei game. Its entire universe fascinate me and looks really fun and it looks so good to play and have a blast. Plus the Idea that there nothing but P5 spinoff are going to happen is rather annoying Though I am looking forward to Royal edition.
The irony that the only 2 Persona games that have the SMT name on them are the only ones where you don't actually fight the SMT demons. (Not counting rereleases with the name added)
I really don't wanna nitpick but Shin Megami Tensei is actually written with the character for true or intense (which has the same reading as the character for new) so the title would be more correctly translated as "The true reincarnation of the goddess" or "The reincarnation of the true goddess" (I'd say the first one since 真 is separated from the rest of the title). I'm not sure if that's a wordplay or something, I got into the series pretty recently so I'm definitely not an expert. Hope you can forgive me if I'm wrong about anything I said ^^
Replying to a two month old comment but Persona takes place in a branched off timeline where SMT1 didn't happen but SMT if... did. The main character from if... appears in Persona 1 and 2.
With respect to both the _Persona_ and _SMT_ series, it is good to note that they are separated (as the _Persona_ series is the spin-off of _SMT_). Nevertheless, the _Persona_ series is canonically another timeline of _SMT_ due to the fact it is a sequel series to _SMT If_ (another timeline where the ). We know this because Tamaki (the female option protagonist of _SMT If_) is a character in _Persona_ 1 and 2(IS & EP). I do respect your argument for both _SMT_ and _Persona_ being in the same franchise (like _Pokémon_ with the same creatures in the games' canon or not). The argumentation left me a little too unsatisfied with the conclusion. The argument only applied to franchises and not the question, "Is _Persona_ part of the same series as _SMT_?" Regarding this, the dialogue could have been better by understanding both sides on _SMT If_ and if it makes _Persona_ part of the series, being a side series. As I presented above, the logic seems to be that they are in the same series. Hopefully, any debate can be resolved on this matter. And may truth be revealed.
Personally i don't know why they don't drop the demons in persona for other designs. I especially though this since the enemies ended up being shadows. The Demons as persona's in my opinion barely have a roll to the point where you don't even see them through out a lot of the game. Since you don't actually even fight demons.
Ever since I played my first SMT (5) I decided that they are the same world. At the end of persona 5 Joker gets sataniel to break order, now in another time line joker took it even further and had to destroy the world. Meanwhile SMT seems to be about becoming a demon/god. In my head cannon persona and smt are in a perpetual loop with each other
I do believe Persona series is still set in Megami Tensei universe, so it doesn’t kill off SMT series completely. More likely, they want to keep toe to toe on the mainline series on their own and keep their franchise alive, unlike many other spin-off before (I.e. Digital Devil saga, Devil summoner, Devil children, and Devil Survivors); and still want to capitalize the same treatment as Pokémon spin-off, as well.
"As we all know, the Megami tensei series started in Japan as..." Bro, no, we don't all know. I don't know anything. I'm trying to make sense of all this and see where I can jump in.
