Is Separation in College Football Inevitable? | College Underdogs | Ep. 86 

Shout out to USF as well for dominating Syracuse 45-0!

@@pikeusf23 absolutely

Yes I was expecting a big shout out for Memphis and USF for dominating their games. Sounds like Trey has been busy though the last couple of weeks.

The fcs has a playoff. How would the G5 be killed?

@@bwallecu08 You ever try to watch an FCS game during the regular season? It’s nearly impossible. People don’t care at all about FCS teams unless there are literally no other options for miles around (NDSU in North Dakota for example). Same goes for a G5 school. Auburn was AWFUL this year, but there wasn’t a single game in which UAB outdrew Auburn in attendance or on TV. People don’t want to watch an inferior product, they want to watch their teams compete against the best of the best. To let them do that for 100 years and then say “Sorry, your TV Market isn’t big enough, so piss off” would do nothing but encourage those fans to abandon the sport entirely. Look at NBA ratings for Seattle, or NFL ratings in San Diego.

You're not telling me something I don't know. I'm and East Carolina graduate. I'm also a pragmatist. Separation is coming. It sucks but that doesn't mean we'll all just shut down our athletic departments.

@@bwallecu08 Many will. I’d bet even ECU will, simply due to the costs of running a program. Separation may very well be coming, but it would also spell the end of CFB as a popular sport. You think fans of smaller programs are just gonna shrug and pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to watch their rivals or schools they have no attachment to? Ask the NFL and NBA how ratings have done in markets they’ve left like Seattle and St Louis. People will RESENT and HATE CFB. People will ACTIVELY refuse to watch or attend games. And as more and more teams are forced into irrelevance or bankruptcy, more and more fans will abandon the sport entirely. Think it can’t happen? Look at NASCAR and Boxing.

No way in hell was SMU the best G5. They got curb stomped by a depleted squad in BC. They had a golden opportunity to prove themselves and failed miserably. Also of key note, all G5 conference champions lost their bowl games and no G5 conference finished above .500 in bowl games this season. The argument against Liberty and putting in SMU is stupid and ignorant. SMU played 2 FCS schools and 2 P5 schools. All the P5 schools and top G5 schools for non conference play against Liberty backed out as soon as it was announced that they were joining a conference in CuSA. Theses G5 and P5 schools didn’t want to hurt their chances nor their conference chances if lose to Liberty and even if Liberty was good and they were, CuSA was in total flux and no doubt the majority of the conference would be bad and they were. Liberty played no FCS in non conference games. But they made their schedule to get adjusted to FBS conference play against a slate of schools somewhat unfamiliar with and no intention to get NY6. The brass at Liberty along with the football staff and players and fans were realistic enough to be grateful if got NY6 but were not expecting it when the schedule changed and was made as they joined CuSA this past Summer of 2023. On the other hand, schools in AAC and MWC and SBC and MAC were and especially top tier schools with what they had coming into the season and schedule. They all attempted and failed mightily. The only G5 schools that had a legitimate argument against Liberty were Troy of the SBC and Ohio-Miami of the MAC. Unpopular opinion here, but if any conference has over 10 schools, create and setup division or divisions play please. It would solve all the issues with the three-way or four-way or five-way ties and kookiness that took place these past 3 years.

@@michaelwall3393 SMU played Prairie View A&M a last minute replacement, and the only FCS school we played. OUR OOC was Oklahoma, TCU, and La Tech. And then we had the AAC schedule. By every worthwhile and objective measure, FPI, SOS, Sagarin, Massey (Not composite - its a joke with so many outliers), Talent Roster rank, etc - SMU was the highest ranked G5 team. I don't judge SMU by the BC performance, nor do I judge Liberty by their OR "performance". And if SMU was "curb stomped" I am almost afraid to know what happened to Liberty. And further, did LU BEAT any team ranked higher than Tulane or Memphis? According to FPI (before bowls), SMU had wins over the #51. #53, #83, #91 teams - best 4 wins. LU - #82, #87, #91, #107 - best 4 for the Flames. How it happened really does not matter. But LU put together one of the most pathetic schedules in modern college football. CUSA ranked as the 13th best conference per Sagarin. Only Mac East and MAC West were behind. Independents were 12. 11 of LUs opponents came from these 4 categories with only ODU from SBC as the odd man out. But it gets worse. Some schools were literally wearing FBS diapers - brand new to this level. AND, LU only played 5 away games and even the CC was home. SMU played 6 away games including its two best OOC opponents. And the CC against Tulane was away. Its much easier to win at home. LUs roster ranked #123. They won all their games playing teams that were roughly equal or worse in talent. Liberty never stood a chance against OR, who was ranked 10th. SMU was ranked #34. Would SMU have won. Doubtful. But the game likely would have been more competitive - at least when SMU was on defense, and definitely more entertaining. But what the committee SHOULD have done is put the G5 rep against FSU. And let OR and GA duke it out. At least one of those games might have been more interesting. I predicted a final score of 42-6 based on the rosters - if OR came out "angry" and 31-10 if they didn't care. I called the SMU game as well, because without Stone, Kerley, and a few players injured early, BC had a talent edge. Along with home field advantage, and miserable conditions that negated our team speed and preferred their style of offense. I'm not sure why LU fans want to keep this delusion alive that somehow the Flames were just as good as OR, or even belonged in the playoff. Its just not true. They were Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl 2008 all over again. Beating up a bunch of no name schools will not make you better. You MUST play up, which makes it much harder to go undefeated. But its a good measuring stick. Beating a Power school every once in a blue moon means nothing. SMU plays TCU every year and has won 2 of the last 5. But TCU is a Power team, and even at 5-7, they had a better roster than we did this year - which helps explain their win. They would easily beat LU and every one of your regular season opponents by double digits. Its just the reality of CFB. Talent wins the day. Watch CFB long enough and you realize certain truths - GENERALLY, Power teams will always have better talent and more depth than a G team - which explains why G wins over P teams are rather rare. There are always exceptions - injuries, coaching changes, distractions, turnovers, penalties, missing their charter flight - whatever that might allow a G5 team to steal a win. It took time for me to finally accept this truth. There is a recruiting ceiling for G teams - especially in competitive areas like DFW/Texas - where Power schools recruit like crazy and its far too common to use G status as a negative recruiting tool because it works. That is one of the many reasons why SMU has been investing and working so hard to get into a Power conference. If we want to play with the Big Boys, we MUST recruit on a level playing field. NIL and Portal certainly help, but Power schools DOMINATE high school recruiting. I really enjoy the passion Flames fans have. I've interacted with many on social media. It would behoove everyone to take a beat, step back, and look at your team objectively like so many other cfb fans from the G5 community have. When you win some games, listen to coach-speak, and your paid journalists tell you how great you are, this will often drown out reality. LU was VERY GOOD, relative to their competition. And that should have been readily apparent about 2 quarters into the game with Oregon - definitely by the 3rd quarter. SMU had a great season played OU and TCU very close even with the disparity in talent. But there was a reason we lost both games - TALENT. Same reason OR was able to dominate LU at literally every position on the field, even going 2 deep on their roster. Your life as a college football fan will be much better with a more realistic and objective approach to the game. THEN, you can do the things necessary to build a program that CAN compete at the highest level. That is what SMU has been doing for several years, and we will continue next year in the ACC - likely having to build the roster some more to be competitive with ACC teams.

No. SMU got exposed and beaten legitimately and if anything, BC had the opt outs and sitting players for next year and transfer portal players leave more than SMU. SMU had been fraudulent most of the season as was many AAC and MWC colleges on how good of team or how bad of a team they were. But SMU was not worthy of a NY6 nor should they been ranked behind Liberty and should not have been ranked at all. Troy and Miami of Ohio were better. Fun fact, all G5 conference champions lost. 😅😢😂😢 boom.

@@michaelwall3393 the mountain west had the bid in their hands, then they showed they were not as good as people thought with their multiple collapses in the late season. This was their year to get the bid, and they choked. Their conference champion lost to the 3rd place team from the AAC. I don't think Troy or any MAC team was better than SMU, and neither did the voters. Troy and any MAC team were never in consideration for the G5 spot. Not many teams at this level can lose their starting QB and be as good as they were with him. Liberty got in bc they played an easy schedule. Had SMU not played Oklahoma, and scheduled an easy team instead, they get the NY6 Bowl.

⁠​⁠​⁠@@GR-bn3xj SMU had 2 FCS schools on their schedule to go with getting clobbered by both Oklahoma and TCU. So no dice. You can merry-go-round all you want, but Troy and Miami-Ohio were better and better than SMU. The committee did their thing to stroke their ego and that’s truth. I agree with you that the MWC had it in their hands to take but messed up. I said that at the beginning of the season. Liberty did not schedule to make sure they go undefeated and get NY6. Multiple P5 schools and top G5 schools got off the schedule once Liberty University went from being independent to members of CUSA for obvious reasons. I think for the first time no G5 conference had a winning bowl record. During the regular season the CUSA had a decent record against G5 competition but deplorable against P5. But AAC did as well. Also SMU is joining the ACC, so the committee and networks don’t want to look like fools so rankings are highly controversial and biased. I am talking about the actual competition and performance on the field and the schedule as a whole and not just non conference games, and that is why I am saying Miami-Ohio and Troy were the only ones who had legitimate gripes. By the way you argue that SMU lost their starting quarterback but didn’t hurt their offensive production against Tulane who was fully loaded. They were favored to beat Boston College and failed. Had Memphis not stubbed their toes against SMU and Tulane as they got screwed over in their game against Missouri; they win AAC with 1-loss and leap over undefeated Liberty easily and give Oregon all they can handle and more and possibly win. Oh another reason not to take SMU, they lost starting quarterback just like FSU but have 2 bad losses already to 2 P5 schools with their starting quarterback in play. So fear of extreme blowout like what Georgia did to FSU (but to be fair FSU had tons of players declining to play or transfer or even the school itself decided to sit down players who will be on the team next year but not risking injuries).

@@michaelwall3393 you may not like SMU, but by the end of the season their metrics were the best of any G5 teams. I'm actually not an SMU fan, I just really don't think there was a chance of Troy or Miami getting the G5 bid. You are the first and only person I have heard saying it could have been someone other than SMU or Liberty. Troy lost a near home bowl game against a Duke team that had lost their starting QB and coach, although Troy lost their coach as well to be fair. The team that impressed me the most from the bowl season was Memphis with their win over Iowa State. I wish they hadn't given that game to SMU. Tulane seemed to have lost their fight when they realized the coach was leaving before the game or during the game. I can't help but think that affected them, and I think Memphis would have put up a much better fight than Liberty did. I didn't like the message the committee sent though is my problem. SMU scheduled 2 P5 schools, and while they looked ok against Oklahoma, they didn't against TCU. Had they scheduled 2 more cup cakes, whether it would have been fraudulent or not, they would have gotten the spot. The committee picking Liberty could be viewed by G5 that a winning record means more than challenging your team. The reason I would have preferred SMU is 1) I thought they were better and would put up a better fight 2) I didn't want them to get punished for trying to play better competition. They laid an egg in their bowl game though, so hard to fight for them, but Liberty didn't look great either lol

@@michaelwall3393 Yet AGAIN you are posting incorrect information. SMU played Prairie View A&M an FCS team as a last minute replacement. And played La Tech, OU, and TCU for their other OOC games. SMU lost its starting QB against Navy - the best player by ranking on the team. They also were without a staring WR. BC, although only 6-6 is a Power team. With SMUs injuries, and BCs opt outs/injuries, BC actually had a slight talent edge. BC had homefield advantage, and their offense favors sloppy conditions, which largely negated SMUs team speed. The game was still close - within 9 - hardly "exposed" in any sense of the word. Getting EXPOSED, is playing a tinkerbell schedule (the worst in FBS) with the 123rd ranked roster and expecting to be competitive with the 10th best roster in CFB! Had Oregon desired, they could have kept scoring. They took pity on LU and kept the game within 6 TDs. The fact that all G5 teams lost proves my point. One of the few G5 victories was Memphis against Iowa State. One of the good teams along with Tulane that SMU beat.

The question I have is how long are they willing to pay these huge TV contracts. I guess as long as they have a ton of viewers, but with the direction college football is going, I don't see the numbers going up. I could be wrong, but I believe the numbers will start to go down with all the changes made, not up. Then the networks will have to decide if these huge deals are worth it. What if they say no it isn't next round? The big time conferences, and all these moves will not look as good, and then I believe the two big conferences will start to jettison their lower teams so the big boys get a bigger share. It's all speculation, but all of these moves are being driven by TV, so I really wonder what would happen if those numbers go down. They are eroding the core of what made college football so special, so it isn't too much of a stretch to me.

@@GR-bn3xj You are correct for all the Conferences other than the B1G and SEC. They will not axe 1 school. The B1G it’s AAU and the SEC it’s cultural. The ACC and B12 are holding value because they have pieces yet to go B1G or SEC. Once those are gone, then you will have the core B12 and ACC. There could be AAC or MWC pieces that could backfill the ACC and B12, but will it be enough to grow, no. It might not stop a regression also. However, is $30-$40 million per year bad? If ESPN plays the AAC, SBC, and MAC right, these 3 could all be in a $10-$15 million range.

To be fair I think all of the G5 teams would have lost to Oregon.

@@Andoverx maybe, maybe not. I think SMU, Tulane, Air Force, Fresno, and USF could have beat them if they had their starters in. Definitely wouldn’t have lost to them as bad as Liberty

It is not Liberty first year at FBS level. Shows how much you know or pay attention. This is Liberty first year as a member of a Conference at FBS. But they have been FBS independent for 6 years with bowl eligibility in 5 years plus this year as members of CUSA which is 6th year qualifying for a bowl. Also key note to all the idiots of AAC and SBC who will say their champ should have been in the NY6 bowl, both champs took it on the chin from vastly inferior P5/4 schools that were underdogs to the G5/6 teams and won by double digits. Furthermore, the other G5/6 conference with its champion team that could have made an argument to be chosen over Liberty lost to a mediocre fellow G5/6 school in their bowl and made me question just how impressive were those two non conference wins over P5/4 back in September after all. Keep in mind BC beat the hell out of SMU. A game that SMU did lead and control before letting it slip away and get out of hand. People need to understand this is like the year of the BCS era where Hawaii was undefeated and kind of had no choice but to take them. Also no G5/6 conference finished with a winning record in bowls and only two finished with .500 record or even in CUSA and AAC. I don’t think WazzU or OzzU will be able to make CFP12 or even NY12 or whatever they call it as independents. The reverse merger only happens and works if they take all the MWC schools and their sports and including Hawaii for all sports, add some Big West and WCC schools to further bolster their position and status in Olympic sports and hope in two years time they will be allowed to retain Autonomy and Power status and get a decent but not world class deal for revenue. If that unfortunate situation happens, the other Non-Autonomous schools and conferences should have concern about the future of the playoffs with the 5-7 model and demand system of a 6-6 model return because everyone knows the five conferences that their champion will be in if go from P4 back to P5 in a couple of years. But if not, there are no guarantees that AAC or MWC will be selected as the G5/6 representative or representatives in the future 12-team playoffs selection process. None. The SBC was stronger than both conferences these past two seasons. It is not debatable at all. What will have to happen is the best to middle best schools in both G5/6 and P4 conferences have to play each other in non conference games regularly and frequently and seasonally every season. What is going to happen or need to happen are both P4 and G5/6 teams eliminating games against FCS unless in transition to FBS.

Segregation of schools into different sports leagues isn’t the same as segregation of actual people by a protected class. Schools aren’t a protected class. Lol

That already exists with Division 3, Division 2 and Division 1 (FBS/FCS). Not sure how relegation and promotion further segregates. If nothing else, it adds more accessibility if you focus on the promotion portion of promotion/relegation.