"anything that can get more healers and more tanks to play the game to allow just in general more groups to be able to form...that's always is a step in the right direction". I agree with u 100% tettles.
It should be added that a lot of healers did not enjoy just beeing along for the ride doing affixes and pass a few healing checks while spending most of their active time doing damage and helping with stops. People play healer because they enjoy doing actual healing.
I love how neutral and thought through Yoda is, he might come over as boring to some people but it's really refreshing to have someone with range than just "its op" and "its dead".
Squishy sitting there with a actual hand held microphone is iconic man, 2024 and he looks like he’s about to break into singing a song at growls wedding
This has almost immediately become my favourite Wow podcast, I just love the dynamic that's still got room for mucking around and being silly & going off onto (really interesting) tangents while still going deep. The energy is just so fun!!
Here's my cook for Silken Court. If it goes live like this, there is no way that Liquid/Echo kills it with the stupid strategy of keeping a red side and a blue side. It is so much running/downtime for both DPS and HPS. There's going to be a way more elegant solution that boils down to having a different groups of red and blue players responsible for their pair of orbs. As long as you have a good strategy and learn the "dance", there shouldn't really be too much of a problem with running over other people. Something similar to the original "strat" would be to have 5 red and 5 blue on the left boss and 5 blue and 5 red on the right boss. The 5 red on the left and the 5 blue on the right will start on the far side of the boss. When everyone drops orbs, you will do a smaller rotation clockwise within your group, so that whoever is passing by the middle of the room will be passing by their same color and won't run into the opposite color on the other boss. This is just an expansion of the 2 group idea to minimize movement, but there could very realistically be more mini groups of players at any given time in the final strategy done by the RWF raiders.
Yea yesterday I was carrying a friend through lower keys as Havoc DH, when ur doing 1 mil aoe dps and tank is doing 60-100k they can't keep aggro off u and it has to be the most annoying experience for the person who does high damage and the tank trying to keep threat on mobs
I fully agree. I basically can't fully dps when I'm helping guilides. Just the opener on bosses I seem to rip agro constantly. The meters tell it all, burst is 3m for an aoe pack and the tank is hitting 2-300k. It needs to he fixed.
@@Jenkyllllls y'all know you can do less, right? If the reward for pushing all your buttons while helping out a lowbie is death, then you can chill on it for a bit. XD
Threat is a legacy game mechanic and maybe the desire to remove it comes from it being nerfed to the point of not needing to think about it. There's probably ways to make it more interactive & fun.
It's not that it's been nerfed though, right? It's because it was a mechanic that was solved by addons 19 years ago by players so they wouldn't have to deal with it.
Love the idea of tackling Aug's dominance by just making more support specs. Plenty of people (myself included) have been in the healer role for most of their wow career because they really just enjoy being a support, but wow doesn't really offer that. Creating a new role in wow only works if there's distinction within the role itself and now just Augs. Great point.
The appeal of the Aug for lower keys is based off the healer and tank with u because if they under geared or bad u want Aug at a lower level to compensate
I stopped playing devastation season 2 because waiting 6-10 seconds to start dpsing so i didn't immediately get turned on and melee'd to death was miserable. Threat is fine as long as they tune around it, but they 1000% should get rid of healer threat..
Love this format! Its a great podcast, keep it up. Is it possible to normalise the audio somewhat? I often listen in quiet environments, and i find myself turning up the volume when Growl is speaking and down when Squishy and Tettles is talking. Its not that loud, but the peaks are way higher on Tettles and especially Squishy. Atleast for me. Cheers from Norway!
I mostly pugged in DF, healing and I didn't realize how bad the tanks I was healing were until the end of the expansion, like I hadn't experienced not healing the tank until I started playing with my guildies. Very rarely some pug keys I wouldn't have to heal the tank and then the very next key I would get a tank where I had to spam like it was Cata. Tanks need to be carried in the pug world based on my experience. Also, crazy take, but they should change Outlaw into a support. Make it be able to Vanish other players, throw gas bombs, grapple onto the ceiling, use Sprint on other players, grapple other players to them, grapple mobs, AOE Between the Eyes (aoe stun), screw it, let them Cloak other players too. Rogues in movies and stuff do way more than combat when they are portrayed, they bring way more skills than up front combat, that's the entire point of them.
22:14 :: M12-M15 player here, this key lvl is about the range where Aug players can become good but still hit or miss (moreso than other specs). Anything below Aug is 95% of the time the worst spec you can bring followed by fire mages. Talking about 50% Ebon Might uptime, random or no use of their utilities and one other bad or even average dps devalues Aug a lot. Even a good aug doesnt feel needed in 12-15 keys, but as a healer it does feel nice having an aug that understands when to use their utility. Aug requesting to be deleted is definitely a top 5-10% player take and even for this playerbase Aug mostly isnt required at all with capable players (in 12-15s).
Not to diminish Silken Court's difficulty, but the "Death"/"Mark of Death"/"Touch of Death" mechanism has been used before to basically force stop progression during testing; hopefully that is the case here and it returns to something like the Paranoia/Rage from earlier testing.
For people that don’t raid, the climb from 7 to 10 to go from full heroic to a once a week mythic piece can be quite large. Especially in season 1 where all key progression is slower and more difficult.
make keys limited by timer would make aug okay'ish. You diminish the value of the extra utility it brings and get their damage output in line (as seen by the logs shown). Unfortunately blizzard is going the other way, adding an affix that punishes deaths even more (aug helps with not dying i've been told), limiting tanks in what they can survive (can't increase pull sizes to make the timer) and increasing number of stops needed and unavoidable group damage (again limiting pull size). So my best guess is that the plan will be to box everything in, that every key level can only pull one pack at a time making the game identical on all levels and higher keys will be done by those that can transition the fastest between pack and press their buttons the best way possible...but I'm done with the dooming for today. Great Episode btw :D
The thing with Aug that I hate, is that it's insanely difficult, or finicky (basically gotta parse to check out after the fact) to see how good the Augmentation Evokers in your groups are. And when you then go into the logs and check, you find out that most Augs are absolutely awful. They blind press Presience so it lands on tanks and healers and then falls off on the dps, they don't use their stuns well, they don't use the healing button, they often have bad Ebon Might uptimes too. In short, they play like most random dps players you pug, way under their potential. But because it's hard to gauge their contribution they go through key ranks anyway. So I keep inviting them to higher level keys only to feel oddly weak because they end up not carrying their weight. They're a spec that is amazing in the right hands, but it rarely goes into the right hands. And that really annoys me. For a lot of us that pug M+ they are a chain tied to our legs, and you never know what you end up getting.
I actually had a very long argument with a non tank player about threat as a mechanic. He believed tanks shouldn’t care about damage and wanted them to live and manage threat. There are people out there who think threat should be a major mechanic, they just aren’t tank players.
To me giving away threat killed tanking. In a more classic way hit rating/block/evade was a good gearcheck and really rewarding for those who was aware of being a good tank.
@@lgleonardogomes That's certainly a take....having played classic it's an inferior experience. You don't have agency of your survival, you just sit there and it's a binary you either have the gear or you don't and even if you do you can still just fall over randomly because of bad RNG or your healers just suck. There isn't really much skill expression at all for there to be "good" tanks. At least in modern WoW, tanks can actually have skill expression through good use of their toolkit and through the damage output that they can bring.....
@@TheHashtagSquad2K15 i get you but now its somehow different? As a tank you just press your mitigation in the right time kick the right spell and thats it. Good job. Im really excited to see the new tank+healer outcome and to be honest dps need way less defensives. Said that much work on tuning spike dmg need to be done either.
Great episode and totally agree with adding more support specs. I know quite a few people who like the playstyle and I enjoyed aug season 2. A good suggestion I have seen before is a 4th paladin spec called "Inspiration". Many of the old buffs e.e might, kings, wisdom etc are not used anymore and could be a time to bring them back in a different form. Would go nice with Lightsmith hero tree but not sure of the 2nd hero tree to with it.
If its content meant for the .1% if something is too hard where no one can do it, it's bad. If its content that kills most of the top guilds but only a small amount of guilds can do it in the opening weeks, then its good because they can nerf it into an easier state at some point. If content is something that majority of the .1% can do in the opening weeks that's also bad. If you don't want to fight a wall that is mythic raiding and just want something where each boss is doable in like 20-40 pulls, then I don't know if people are there for the challenge or just there to get titles and mounts which I could care less about.
Growl got close to something that is important to remember: "Good game design isn't always what people want or what is the most optimal." Every conversation around things like threat, or CC, or add damage comes down to the same thing; we need something to stop us. The game just wouldn't be as engaging if we ran through dungeons or raids or whatever without consequence.
For the devour affix just remove the dispel portion and make it not a healing absorb, make it a healing threshold that has to be met but it isnt an absorb so you just have 15 sec to heal that amount on a group but they arent actively being killed by the healing absorb
My group got up to 13-14's this season so we are fairly representative for that range they are talking about concerning Aug. What we noticed was that already from 10s and upwards, an average Aug that uses utility decently enough, still made the keys go way smoother. It felt like we had the difficutly setting go from Hard to Medium, to use a Single Player Game term. In 13's and 14s when we you get coms into the mix, it was even more noticable in certain encounters, where I (as the healer) could even let my optimal gcd usage slip in some of the harder parts of the key because I simply had more juice passivly or my team was tankier. Is it mandatory from 12 and up? But we are still in a place where Aug teams can do a key or two higher than other comps, but that is kinda always the case with meta comps. As long as we dont get the 3-4 key difference we saw at the start of Aug's life, I'm fine. 1 level higher is "acceptable" in my book.
Interesting points about the state of raiding and the quantity of active guilds. I think beyond the obvious barriers to entry for mythic raiding, one factor which has probably contributed to the decrease in active mythic raiding guilds is the complete lack of support provided by Blizzard when it comes to running a team. I would argue that the majority of the dev decision making from the last 6 seasons has made it more difficult to keep a raid team alive, alongside a consistent lack of transparency and information which makes it more difficult to make decisions on behalf of a group of people and plan around the content/tuning/changes that are to come. A relatable example that comes to mind is the shift in encounter design from Shadowlands S3 to Dragonflight, whereby it wasn't unusual for a mythic raiding guild to have 5 or even 6 healers on a roster for SL, there were plenty of 5 healer progress bosses - compared to DF where 4 healers was the ceiling for progress. That kind of information should be communicated to the player base to not waste people's time, the way that most mythic raiding guilds found out that was the case (especially if they did zero raid/beta testing) is that they ended up having to bench multiple people for DF S1 progress, and presumably ended up losing those players once they realised that the philosophy of encounter design had completely changed for the entire expansion.
Aug feels awful because we are supposed to call it 'support', but it's a necessity for a lot of groups. People hate the spec because it will almost always take a raid and mythic+ spot. Shamans have been degraded for almost an entire expansion, yet these dragon boys just get a spot because of their 'support', aka BiS abilities or tanks just flat out dying without Aug.
Imo the most viable candidate for the support spec rework is disc priest. It's lacked identity since wod, and it would clear up a very white mage-esqe healer for priest, a clear dps role in shadow and then using a mixture to infuse allies, similarly to how astrologist works in ffxiv.
On the myth track item : how many item do you get per mythic raid per week? It cant be much more than 1.... the average mythic guild takes month to clear those raids and half that time is spent extending (which mean 0 gear from mythic raid those week). You also have to hope that the boss extremely small loot table have items with the desired stats for you... This might be a tank thing, but I get more myth gear from craft / vault than from raid.
threat can stay if they would rework it into some sort of curve. Like the more threat u have on the pack, the harder it would be for it to go down (think like the stagger bar from sekiro on boss fights, if anyone knows that)
I think with devour they wanted to provide just another thing that lets specific classes shine - different ones this time - by trivializing a mechanic. I think that is learning the wrong lesson. A better lesson would be to design something that cannot be trivialized. I hope that they make it so only single dispels work on it. Also the squishei take on the shield is crazy 5head.
I pugged Aug to my portals in season and I’m sure I wasted 75% of my breaths. Honestly think swapping eons back to deep breath would solve the casual problem. You could probably even buff prescience at that point. Retain the fun of buffing friends but remove the skill ceiling of trying to line up 2 min CDs with no comms.
Yes I think rank1 players sometimes forget that even in lower keys aug is good for these lower skilled players, because to them that +10 feels like the pushing key. So they welcome the extra power on tank and healer and dps loss is not a big issue. It helps them complete dungeons more reliably. If people start dying a lot that's when the aug feels horrible and you have to finish the pull with 1,5 dps etc.
22:00 Yes definetly every aug makes keys MUCH easier. I played lots of m+ season 2 and 3 of dragonflight. +20 were of course no problem without aug but you would already notice a huge difference. Then in the 24-26 range it was mostly needed to bring aug You could try the key but you would need your pug to just be randomly be insane compared to the other people you could find in that rio range Edit: 25:00 Its ABSOLUTELY NOT middle of the pack. it still was the best DPS You could bring and keep in mind. My 24-26 keys were by far NOT in title range that was maybe top 5%-10%(end of season) Idk what 24-26 keys are now after the squish but you can probably convert that yourself Im not really trying to push title, im just looking how far i can push with a few mates because its fun
Maybe threat should inverse scale with keys? It feels like turbo beans if you do your weekly key and rip threat but in higher keys I see the value? As a pug hero, there is a very specific reason I chose a class with tricks for S3 and S4.
"Groups sitting there waiting for a Tank. Tank joins, you go in, you die on the first or second and pull and that's a GG." That has been my argument from the start. Blizzard is designing around the 1%. I keep hearing a bunch of bad healers thinking somehow that healing tanks is going to be the salvation of healing. It's not. It's not interesting gameplay, you're asking for more on your plate with no reward, you will be blamed for more things, there will be less people playing Tank. It's all losses. There's no redeeming part. It doesn't hurt me. I am the sub 1% player, I'll find good Tanks and play with them. I keep trying to speak up about it though because this isn't gonna be good for the average player. Your experience is going to be worse. But people keep being gas-lit into thinking it's going to be better when they haven't even attempted a Beta key to see the sorry state that M+ is in. Knowing the pace that Blizzard moves, it's not even going to be a bad Week 1 experience. It's just going to be a bad Season 1 experience. And on Squishei's point. There are far more bad healers than bad tanks. It's not going to be a scenario where you can try tanking expecting your healer to carry you. Like 80% of healers are bad because it is the most knowledge intensive, reaction time intensive, and UI addon dependent role. On the flip side, like 80% of Tanks are passable. You're just going to attempt tanking for the first time and think you suck at it not because you're actually bad but because most healers are terrible.
who are you even talking about? it feels like its directed at max to me but if anything the issue lately has been max being unwilling to interrupt for fear of this exact complaint now...
@@ThePolarpop you said “but if anything the issue lately has been max being unwilling to interrupt for fear of this exact complaint now...”. That’s because in the beginning he would never stop talking and a lot of people would always say he loves hearing himself talk. Do you want me to hold your hand and explain more?
@@derryberry7991 ...but the implication of the fear of that is that things changed so how can you also on the same breath complain as if it's still occurring ???
As a bear main I’m just sad how many nerfs we got 😢 With the fact that I’m using my heals as defensives as well it’s gonna freaking suck to tank keys. If they could just shorten the cd of incarn/berserk and survival to a 2 min cd I would be less upset about all the nerfs
Raids need to be 10man id love mythic raiding if i didnt have to find 19 other people who want to play i could take me and my group of friends who i run keys with and find another key group we get along with to do 10mans.
Topic: Can you talk about abilities that contain hidden mechanics? By that I mean mechanics that if you do thinks a certain way you get bonus effect. For example Nether Precision on Arcane Mage. If you do it “right” and do hard cast > hard cast > instant cast you get buffed spells. But the tooltip says the next two abilities. Similar interactions on other abilities such as crits on fire mage. Is this skill expression or should mechanics be more clear and not require you watch a PreHeat guide to understand class abilities?
I know I'm in the minority but I have always found threat to be a fun mechanic as a tank. Being able to hold all the mobs over well geared dps was what got me to be a tank all the way back in Vanilla/BC. Been a tank k ever since and kinda miss the threat game.
From a tank perspective, threat was an interesting mechanic in Vanilla and BC. After that era it was mostly just annoying when it was relevant. In the era of active mitigation and very specific routing, it is probably too much to deal with for a typical tank who is already under more pressure in a five man. If they could make it more relevant in raid content that might be interesting, as raid tanking (outside of very specific bosses) tends to be the most boring thing in the game.
Casual 10s? Like have you tried to PUG keys with the recent key squish in M+? In the OCE community, you struggle to time 10s, with pugs, even with score, let alone comp. Casual player base is like 5/6, once you get to 10, pugging can be a struggle and I would be looking at an aug, who can hopefully do the little bit extra to help me complete my key with its support to tanks/heals
Does an affix like Devourer make a +12 easier than a +11? From the discussion it sounds like it could. +12 might have much higher scaling but would be a much simpler run mechanically.
im a full on doomer when it comes to this class tuning with tanks and healers, because im a casual and PUG keys is going to be a catastrophe. Less people will play tanks because they are made out of paper and players like me who are not the best at the game are going to misuse cooldowns, or forget to use them when i should have used them and just instantly die. Theres going to be less healers because healers now have to carry an even heavier weight in the group than they already did, now they also have to keep the tank alive ALONG with keeping the dps alive and themselves. Healing spells are so weak compared to a tanks health pool that the actual single target heals are not even impactful on a tank, yet their healthpools drop from 100 to 20 in a global losing 6 million health in 1 hit, and single target heal crits for 1.2 mil and without crit 600k... Prot paladin is just pure garbonzo, none of their absorb talents scale well in war within. They literally do nothing and yet theres so many of them clogging up the talent tree. Word of Glory does nothing, even when healing at low percent health it still does nothing. I dont know if its bugged or something? But its absolutely useless. Prot warrior ignore pain does nothing either, and that used to be the core mechanic when it comes to defense. Vengeance DH and Guardian Druid were the only ones i could play with relative success, at least they didnt die like paper and actually had a little bit of self sustain. Blood dk is great too, but too spiky for me.... Idk man its going to be rough out there for us casual noobies
I personally like threat, tho it was very poorly balanced for ret pallys when I played. Could be third on DMG meter and still get threat and die. As for support. I've said it before. Disc would be a cool support, as settles said. Priest don't need 2 heal specs. Druid could be cool, maybe have a feral that does some support for physical damage. Moonkin does some support for magical damage. Enhancement shaman, it's in the name.. let's enhance our friends!
@12:58 With regards to ripping threat mid pull, is there still a threat modifier on crits? IIRC you used to generate double threat when you crit (makes sense you hit for double dmg). If that modifier is still in the game, removing that might be an easy way to tone down the most egregious offenders
In mid keys aug is mandatory because everyone sucks but aug makes the tank survive and allow heal to afk, another spec would suck and not provide anything relevant even if they could (example: ret paladin NOT USING bop in Tree Boss of Waycrest Mannor)
Problem with Aug, is there is no skill expression. How good Aug practically only depends on the people he is buffing. Aug is in desperate need of a rework.
I believe squishy’s point about maybe healers can carry now is just the opposite. If a player was so bad they couldn’t handle it when the tank was stronger and the healer still couldn’t carry them, how are they gonna handle a weaker tank? They didn’t massively change dungeon damage so it’s not more forgiving to a bad tank. Weaker tank = harder for healer to carry . Strong tank = easier for healer to carry . Further simplify; if tank A takes 50% more damage naturally and Tank B takes 30% more damage naturally the healer will have an easier time carrying tank B than tank A
10 man raiding would probably save the participation of Mythic raid but maybe I am bias because I don't care to deal with more than 10 person groups at a time
Devour: Maybe make it so that damage done as well as self heals AND cleanses remove the heal absorb? That way anyone can remove the debuff without access to a cleanse. This would make it nice to have a cleanse instead of required and could also free up the healer from having to use their cleanse on the absorb when they also need to use it for a dungeon mechanic. They really need to consider that these affixes need to be done by everyone and not just one spec, because that usually means it falls on a specific class or the healer which makes it not fun for the person handling it. Make sure it's able to be handled by all specs, agnostic of any talent loadout because if you make the skill expression be "take a certain talent", then that just becomes a requirement which is no bueno. Aug/Support Specs: Yes please, either add more support specs or stop making the content require it at the high end and it will get less hate. Maybe cap the scaling damage at a certain point but, but increase the trash health percent instead? Tanks: My vote goes to giving tanks more control to be able to manage the dungeon, similar to what Veng DH has had with double sigils. Sure, maybe make it less faceroll easy, but let the healer worry about healing, dps worry about DPSing, and let the tanks control the pack. Reducing damage taken is kind of boring and reaches a ceiling to a point because you only have so many buttons you can press to defend yourself before you have to kite, and while pumping damage while tanking is fun, it isn't top priority for a tank, so letting the tank take control of controlling the pack's casts and getting them grouped up is more fun and skill expressive to me personally and all tanks should be able to do this equally. Give every tank a way to AOE chains and silence packs similar to how all tanks have the ability to taunt.
22:40 in +10 keys right now on retail is better to bring any dps than an aug, not needed for survival, and their damage self-made or contributed is way too low
