Is the CARNIVORE DIET Safe? Dr. Layne Norton & Shawn Baker MD DEBATE! 

Dr Bakers thinking - this is a real nice desk, wow my hand is so big!

Right off the bat I trust the guy without two cans of monster in front of him...

tipical bodybuilding diet never worked for me, it lead me to bloating and binging ....I switch to carnivore, no cravings, no bloating, no binge eating....3 weeks in

Layne agrees and disagrees with everyone....

Well done gentlemen! This is how all of these conversations/debates should take place. Informative, patient, courteous etc. Really, really helpful, thanks guys.

At the very least, Layne's performance here is a testament to laying off of the energy drinks.

I wish we could get a debate where the moderator forces them to stay on each topic long enough to really hash it out with enough input from both sides.

When layne said hunter gatherers only lived to 30 years old I completely checked out.

The first time I heard Dr Baker, I thought he was crazy. The more I listened to him out of pure curiosity, the more he won me over with his arguments. I am still not carnivore, but the guy is a strong advocate for the movement.

Layne: Interrupts, bases entire argument on association, requires notebook, gives details that are not applicable. Baker: listens patiently, replies concisely yet completely, does not require notebook.

Layne provides really lousy arguments. Does not counter any arguments convincingly.

When will this stupid "cavemen lived until 30" error ever die? And, we don't habe to wildly speculate about what prehistoric man ate. If they lived in northern climates, they would have eaten what was available. Ask a Sami or an Innuit. Broccoli?

Dr. Baker is honestly starting to expose the people arguing against him

layne norton you lost the debate

Does Dr. Baker get to talk on the Layne Norton show? Just wondering.

Jesus, Layne drones on, on and on.

When I personally eliminate fiber from my diet I have way better appetite control. I didn't just try it for a day or two either. I actually followed Layne Nortons dietary advice and lost weigh and got lean but I was hungry constantly. I did it for around 9 months. Eating a keto diet I maintained my weigh and have barely any hunger cravings. Plus I honestly feel better. Again, anecdotal but that's all that matters for me personally. To each their own.

Layne is new to me. He rubs me the wrong way.

16 months carnivore, still no scurvy. Carnivore is not causing metabolic disease that is for sure.

Mark you failed as a moderator.

Shawn dominated that. Constantly interrupting made Layne appear to be defensive all the time and therefore weak in his convictions and lacking confidence in his statements. Shawn was patient and confident, like a teacher talking, without being condescending, to a student.

Not gonna take advice from a guy drinking two cans of monster back to back. Shawn baker seemed to have alot more mental/cognitive clarity by his concise speech versus Layne who would stumble over his words often.

All I can say on this is I started out Keto with 20 grams or less of veg and when I went basically Carnivore that's when I stopped having the inflammation & bloating and stopped having the IBS symptoms, have also been able to come off several medications that I was taking and feel so much better, no more IBS, gout, osteoarthritis, cholesterol med's that I took on a daily basis, and I don't feel I have to eat 6 times a day to have energy. Meat Heals in my book...

Dr. Shawn Baker is very knowledgeable and just a pleasure to hear his interviews.

Thought this was a debate, not the Layne Norton show.

I cant have a big person conversation with some one drinking a Monster drink, much less take diet advice. Anyway, I have eaten clean for 15+ years. the BEST thing I have ever done to date is the carnivore. in days I could feel a difference. Strength shot up fast and just feel awesome!

Great discussion. I like the clips of them working out between...the barbell and exercise is like a peace pipe. Also, really glad that so many people are having success with the carnivore diet, but I'm relieved that I can still have variety in my diet... And NO. I will not cut off the charred parts of grilled meat...that's sacrilege.

Layne put forth the most nonsensical arguments I've ever heard. He just talks in circles. First thing he should learn is that epidemiology is a very low-level science that should not be used to base opinions on - especially diet epidemiology which depends on people's honesty and memory. Nothing could be more inaccurate.

My grandpa has been eating grilled meats several times a week for years in Mexico. Hes 96 and strong as a horse, he aslo eats eggs and beans fried in lard. The difference is most of his food has always been organic non processed. He also walks a lot and has never been overweight. I think that has more to do with it than anything.

Very educational! I think debates like this is a great way to learn, and not be forced into one side.

Wow Layne sure talks alot..............

A guy drinking monster and talking about grilled meat causing cancer; Layne clearly skipped the chapter on “relative risk”.

Really hard to take this guy seriously when he has 2 cans of Monster next to him

Watching Shawn in the last 5 minutes of this was fascinating. Great self restraint Shawn! Props!

So Layne first disses antropology, to then use it in his next argument. Does the same with anecdotal evidence. He literally does everything he complains about himself

Hey, bro! Shut up! Lay off the energy drinks (artificial), and go eat a steak.........

Summary: Layne: Need fiber because it protects when looking at rates of cancer. Shawn: Only essential thing is meat and the fat in meat. Mark: Rules change when you don’t eat carbs or fiber, not enough data on these individuals yet. So requirement could be different.

Arguing against Layne is as easy as saying a few things then letting him contradict himself.

Norton has a castle built out of associations.

Layne always sets up a straw man...if there is one exception, it can’t be generally true...no one is saying EVERYONE should be a carnivore. I like Layne and he has lots of good things to say and even subscribe to his channel but he gets on his horse about certain topics...the high meat diet studies often have to many confounding factors that aren’t controlled, eg vegans are much less likely to smoke than people who eat meat...the confounding factors are much more likely to be the cause.

HEY LANE! GET OFF THR ADDERALL AND STOP INTERUPTING BAKER SO GOD DAMN MUCH! This ain't the lane Norton show, it's meant to be a conversation or "debate"

Layne made the poorest scientific argument possible on this topic, I would guess his PhD is in sales rather than in the research field.

Large spent a lot of time talking about nothing. Baker made few points that were concise and deliberate. Seemed like Layne wasn't ready for this

Debate? 10 min in Dr. Baker literally has uttered two sentences.

Dude, dude, .....oxalates, lectin, sugar, indigestible cellulose, unavailable nutrients = veg and fruits... how do you not know this.

This podcast episode should’ve been called “Dr. Layne Norton talks the entire time.”

Layne Norton is proof you can become a doctor with below-average intelligence. Dude gives me a headache

Northern European hunter gatherer's of the past didn't have a lot of fruit or vegetables, they're main food source was animals. So it would stand to reason that descendants of Northern Europeans would do much better on a mostly meat diet. Disease, plagues, wars, weather etc were much more of an issue with regards to death.

Norton is so worried about fiber and how it protects our bodies all while sipping on his monster energy drink.

I’m experimenting with carnivore and it definitely makes me feel better, but I do worry about creating food intolerances as a result. Shawn says himself when he tried a food reintroduction period, he didn’t do very well with it. Thoughts?

Never heard this Dr. Layne before, but I do believe he likes to hear himself speak. Secondly, if 2 Doctors are trying to give health advice, the one without a Monster drink is who I'm assuming cares about health more.

stopped watching when the other guy said that "We can't say sugar causes obesity." Ok...

Baker is so strong at his age and not even a single carb. Insane

Layne should debate Dr Paul Saladino, but he doesn't accept! He hasn't the guts for it!

Shawn Baker wins the debate.

I'm only a month in on carnivore. Down ten lbs. Inflammation WAAAAAY down! My chronically inflamed rt toe, which was usually red and swollen from minimal activity, ( no not gout I have some cysts there) was completely back to normal after 4-5 days on Carnivore. And it has help up with strenous exercise including sled pushing and pulling. No inflammation at all. I'm urinating stronger, (less prostate inflammation,) and my eyesight seems to be improving. Tried many diets before this, which never worked. That's anecdotal, but for me, it's the real deal so far.

I have a friend who's in constant GI distress and keeps trying more and more fiber to make it stop. Classic insanity

Layne just loves arguing which is why I never watch him. I love your stuff Mark but skipping this one. Sorry mate but that guy is a turnoff

Lane reminds me off a Jacked Charlie from "it's always sunny in Philadelphia"

25:50 Shawn just completely tunes out Layne and starts playing with his hand on the table, lmao

Carnivore Diet has significantly improved my Health Status over the heavily plant-based Omnivorous Diet I was on. My Anecdote is my own personal proof. +1 Shawn Baker

Can’t finish a sentence to save his own life

Use to follow Layne.... No chance I'll listen to him anymore! Shawn was on point throughout the discussion. Ive made so much more progress on Carnivore than on high carb

Next time, it would be great to see a real debate instead of “The Layne Show.“

Needs caffeine because brain fog

Drinking a monster doesn’t discredit your knowledge on a subject matter so I don’t know why so many are clinging to that. Most people watching this follow Mark and are more likely to be fans of the carnivore diet so the bias against Layne is extreme in this comment section. I’m not a huge fan of Layne but tend to agree here. Carnivore is another extreme just like being vegan but on the opposite end. Humans have molars and canines for a reason. We produce the enzymes to digest carbohydrates, proteins, and fats for a reason. We are biologically designed to eat plant matter and meat. Not just one or the other.

Honestly, Dr Baker is way more informed.

Baker crushed this debate. Never knew who Layne Norton was but after seeing this disgraceful display and his inability to argue points I certainly do not want to hear more from him.

I won't be taking nutritional advice from a guy drinking from 2 cans of Monster ! WTF

One looks a helluva lot healthier than the other. Also one is suffering from confusion . For shites sake norton why not try it before you PhD diss it. Bleh

There’s only on way to find out. Do it and see for yourself. This is day three for me and are amazed at the results!

13:46 layne is chatting on his phone lol 😂

Really hard to respect Layne with 2 Monster drinks in front of him. Obviously his Adrenals are depleted. Thank you Shawn Baker for talking true science but more importantly suggesting that you should be your on true test of how you feel!

Strongly disagree, the point of a elimination diet is to eliminate harmful and toxic foods. Tolerance of a toxic or harmful food doesnt mean its beneficial to our bodies.

As I watched the video I found Layne somewhat incoherent.

Norton goes talks from 16:07 to 26:58 and says absolutely nothing. I will never get those 10 minutes back.

Nearly all fruit and vegetables are genetically modified!

I love it at about 26:09 Dr.Baker is so bored of this guys rambling on and on.......he starts zoning out on his hand on the table.

I give this one to shawn

I think it’s cool they had a workout together before hand. Also, I loved that it wasn’t a debate but a discussion. I hate the “meathead” vs. “soyboy” sanctimonious vegan debates. This was great!

There is no long term study on either diets!! It's purely anecdotal Do what works for you. Personally, I thrive off of beef and veggies. Never let the bias, confirm what your body agrees with.

Paul Saladino ate Layne for breakfast the other week.

So near the end Shawn Baker is in a way saying... well science is off so we can't be sure you're right and we can't be sure I'm wrong. It was kind of fun to see Layne get triggered though lol

"Not going to die from meat, but not getting the protective effects of fiber." Layne 9:30. The protective effects of fiber are only needed if you are consuming a high carb, plant toxin filled diet. As are many recommendations for certain vitamins. The protection is needed only for the carb/plant diet. So if you aren't eating the toxins you don't need the protection from those toxins, protection which often doesn't adequately protect fully against the inflammation and toxicity in the first place.

“Debate” ... meh

Layne talks to much because he knows he's wrong so is trying to make a point but ends up contradicting himself! Baker is the man 💪💪🥩🥩🥩

im carnivore for life thanks to Dr. Shawn Baker. I feel great!!!

This is not a debate, it's one guy yapping and another one checking out a nice desk.

Man talking about what's healthy and theres a chemical drink (monster) sitting right in front of him

I went mostly carnivore, and have strength like never before, as well as no joint pains

are those monster juices protective, lol

Cancer is created biologically when the mitochondria ferments glucose as a means of breaking it down for ATP. I'd like to hear him explain biologically how the carnivore diet increases the risk of cancer.

"When you wait for the peer review published literature your 10 years behind." - Charles Poliquin (only one of the greatest contributors to Strength and conditioning/ bodybuilding etc.) Apply it yourself. Carnivore works.

Reading some of these comments makes carnivore diet come off as a cult

Layne was pretty well behaved here, pretty impressive. He must have some degree of respect for Dr Baker.

I think the most convincing way to have these conversations is have a screen and put up all the studies people want to use as proof of their point. Every time someone mentions a study, I want to know what it said and how it overlooked facts and took guesses and thus came up with conclusions. Or else what you usually get is a constant back and forth without the ability to prove. What has been the most convincing to me is just seeing what plant toxins do on a molecular level to the body. Thats undeniable, but if you just talk about well its good bc it makes you poop more, you are ignoring a TON of facts. Or if someone mentions antioxidants in plants but ignores all the toxins in that same plant, then who cares about the antioxidant? When you see meat has antioxidants and helps make them and also has no toxins then the faulty studies are shown to be even more faulty, The science doesnt lie. People refer to these bad studies as science. The real science is what it does, what do the toxins do? This type of convo would be great as a series of arguments, where each guy pulls up the study in real time, and we can see it and it can be picked apart by the other, because when I read studies, its really easy to pick them apart, The reasons vegans for example are so convinced what they do is healthy is because they have a ton of missing information and parrot inconclusive studies and studies that ignore 90 percent of what the plant does and focuses only on small benefits that are outweighed by the accumulation of negative benefits. As soon as people can see these studies for how crappy they are, they will quickly start to think off themselves and be open to the truth, until then, everyone was come out of it thinking's , "well.. they both had good points " even though there is clearly one right side. Once you know the science, then all the "well this is so confusing bc im told something is bad then its good another day" talk goes away and you see we are misinformed not because the science is changing, but because the propaganda is based off of ridiculous studies and cherry picked. BTW, thats a ridiculous amount of caffeine that guy is drinking, maybe he needs it to balance out the insulin crash of his diet.

Unwatchable.

This is an interesting question that I posted to other pro carnivore proponents. Neither of them answered my question. My question is, how does fiber, for example psyllium husk, affect the low carb carnivore diet?. I always was told that fiber was a zero sum carb, because while beneficial to gut bacteria (according to modern science) it is not a sorved by the body and therefore is no impact to your nutritional profile, but great for your gut bacteria health. If that is true one would assume it should not impact the diet in the same manner that a fruit would for example, because the fruit has additional components of carbohydrates that are unavoidable. I recently started a carnivore high fat very low carb diet. I've lost 28 pounds in the first week and then have maintained a 220 weight +-2 pounds in the second week, while eating about 1700 calories on average. The weight loss period I was eating much less calories, but I have not gained any weight when I increased my intake from 500 or less calories to 1700ncalories. Body composition has changed dramatically. I am hungry only once per day, generally after 20 -22 hours, which means I naturally fast for those intermittent hours, without any effort such as when I ate normalized American diet where intermittent fasting seemed like a constant battle. My skin has become much nicer, my noticable inflammation has completely visually disappeared, I have great energy, and my body temperature is always comfortable. My arthritis has seemingly gone and my face no longer suffers from histamine responses due to certain foods or combinations of foods. I believe that the carnivore or extreme keto diet is beneficial. I have allowed up to 10% carbs by eating some strawberries and raspberries usually in a bowl with pure whipping cream liquid. I eat lots of avocado and I'll eat herb salad and reintroduced some tomato and red bell pepper , (both nightshades) for a couple days to test my response. So far I seem to be clear. Two weeks ago, I lived in fear of food. My face would break out with redness, deep bloody cracks, peeling flaky skin, hair loss of eyebrows and redness oiliness itchiness and my scalp would itch constantly as well as my beard areas. My eyelids would swell and crack as well and get sores in the cold which were very painful. All of that happened almost constantly in a cycle and was affected by some foods or all good of just my insane imagination it seemed. I though t I was allergic to all foods and was exasperated trying to "elimination diet" my way to discovery. My kids would laugh every time I would say "I think I am allergic to ... X food". They would roll their eyes and say, dad, you always say this food or that food...!. Suddenly, when I stopped eating all carbs, it disappeared. Not only that, I can now eat cheese again and milk products again, which I have not been able to enjoy for the last 10 to 12 years. It's crazy. I believe for some humans, carbs are dangerous. I have struggled with weight for the last 15 years and in fact tried using NOOM to lose weight which is a psychological method of teaching food science (based on calorie in calorie out). Using their logic I logged all foods and ate low calorie food to keep my sense of fullness (popcorn, artichoke hearts, grapes). I lost 4 pounds in 8 months and then gained 12 pounds when I gave up since it was so hard to do while starving constantly. On the flip side, eating high fat, I eat once per day, fill myself to satiety and never overeat, and never throughout the day feel that I must eat something or I'll collapse. It's truly amazing. Trailer life changing.

Layne seems to go any way the wind goes and seems to be learning on the job, constantly searching his phone in the interview shows someone whos just desperate to be right rather than anything else. I wouldn't trust anything he says really regarding nutrition, constantly referring to old studies that are known to be obsolete. I think Shawn is being very generous here. The fibre discussion is really annoying. Its clear we don't need it. The study on fibre that followed 26 people with constipation shows that eating more fibre increased the problem. Eating no fibre took away all symptoms completetly. And also the idea that cooking steak in a frying pan will give you cancer is as old as the dinosaurs. No data from anyone on a carnivore diet that cancer is more likely from over cooking meat. So how can you possibly even bring that up. Nonsense.

People who advocate for high fibre diets because of the little markers of less cancer refuse or fail regularly to admit to the fact that the old underlying causes of cancer are high carbohydrate, and that cancer is a metabolic disease. Cancer cells have a faster metabolic rate and rate of mitosis tma'am mitosis then all the healthy cells in your body. When you have lower blood sugar on a regular basis, there is simply not enough fuel for those cancer cells to proliferate and grow and reproduce as quickly. The simple fact of the matter is that the only reason that we are aware of for why mechanistically fibre reduces risks of cancer, Is simply because it reduces the guy's seamaking decks of the food. That's it. That's the only mechanism that we are scientifically aware of period there is no metabolic process in the human body that utilises fibre. That's why it's called fibre. Fibre is Indigestible. The only distinction between kinds of fibre is soluble in water or insoluble in water. But all fibre whether it's water soluble or not, is indigestible by the human body. It's cellulose. It is the cell wall lining of all plant matter. Your body the human body is not capable of digesting cellulose. For your body to Digest cellulose, it requires that proliferation of gut bacteria that Digest cellulose which are the same bacteria that break down cellulose in the stomachs of cows, and is what causes cow farts and cow burps to have a high level of Is methane gas. We are not cows or cattle. We are not dear and we are not chimpanzees or gorillas. But we are not ruined in animals and we are not capable of digesting and breaking down plant matter. We are only able to utilise that which we break free of the cellulose by way of mastication or chewing. Other than chewing, your body has no way of getting the nutrient mint out of plants .