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Average PRO players reaction time is 200 ms. The 128 had a 7ms delay, So it was 30 times faster than your reaction time and you prolly missed 1 kill out of hundreds cause of 128 tick, Now subtick will make sure you kill 1 more guy in 100 duels but with the cost of unsatisfying gunplay and horrible spray, L or W ?
@@Mafiota10 Yes if they make animation tickless like Shooting, Without it Its a meh game. Nothing can change my opinion, it's a fundamental flaw which can't be played for years.
@@ChrisBrown-ir6sf Definitely an L, inconsistency and visual delay is one of the first things you should avoid when creating a competitive esports title. the most important parts of a shooter like CS is the split second decision making and mechanics you have to do in a gunfight. If there is visual delay, clutter, input lag, and inconsistency it jeopardizes the integrity of the competitive aspect of the game.
Watched. This would explain why people say sprays feel off. Your spot in the spray would be slightly ahead of where you see yourself in the animation/when you think you started shooting. Sub-tick seems pretty awesome so far and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a new gaming norm. CS has one of the most nit-picky communities around. It's good that sub-tick is starting here because we'll probably find most every bug and quirk of it before years end.
I think it's all placebo effect. The spray has slightly more spread, but overall, the shooting doesn't feel weird. It maybe felt weird if you had 4k hours but for everyone else, it felt less weird than csgo. Idk why people pretend that csgo was some golden standard. I started playing a year ago so I don't have a strong bias towards it. And csgo felt like dogs hit for the first 500hours. I think what is happening is cs player are exposed to a real engine for the first time and are thrown off by how much better it is. I have a friend that is godlike at generic fps like cod or battlefield. He kinda sucked at cs because of all the weird mechanics. Played cs2 and got ranked 12k because all his shot would connect. Csgo mechanics were actually crap
@@MrFlejon Both shooters you mentioned have aim assist and have completely different mechanics to csgo. It's like saying that a f1 driver is going to be good at driving a truck. He's hitting shoots in cs2 becasue they made weapons a lot more acurate while running,. Which IMO is just a stupid change that's probably going away in a couple months after release when they start loosing more veteran players from it than noobies are coming
The absolute dedication of CS players to examine stuff like this that we all notice and break it down to make it explainable for us and fixable for Valve will never cease to amaze me. It really makes me super hopeful for the final product of CS2. Watched. Edit: Can you guys please stop arguing about Valorant in the replies? We get it, it took a lot from CS. But it has nothing to do with this comment or video. If you've nothing nice or constructive to say about it, let it be. We don't need to bring it up all the time to prove that we are "better'. Because if anything, it achieves the opposite for us.
i think a good fix for this issue would be to change the firing animations from being server sided to being client sided instead, it would make more sense and wouldnt cause the issue of it being out of sync because since firing would be client sided it doesnt rely on a tick, it just relies on input from your mouse
The potential issue with this is then you get worse hit reg feeling when you die first as for you it will still shoot. Its the same non-zero ping issue as other games and quite normal. would be an improvement. No reg is better than an out of sync clientside
@@tylermartin6516 i get your point, but the thing is since subtick remembers if you actually hit somebody, if you click and you’re on somebody, it shouldn’t be an issue with desync and etc, there might be a few scenarios where that issue happens but i think very few
In fighting games theyre starting to standardize rollback netcode where people are willing to experience the occasional millisecond fakeout if it means their buttons are registering
Just wanna make this clear again - Take this information with a grain of salt. There's always room for more clarity and maybe even some corrections down the line. None of this is confirmed by Valve. However, CS2's sub tick mechanics are proven to work already so that's good news in itself.
Watched! Alla dina videos såklart ;) Detta är så J*VLA bra förklaring och om dem löser problemet är det ju nice! Om dem fixar så att skottet avfyras tidigare så blir det jobbigt, och vad händer om 2 spelare skjuter på EXAKT samma tic, och registreras på nästa, vem dör? :O
Watched. Subtick really made the game far more precise from a technical standpoint, but it's gonna be hard for all of these visual discrepancies resulting from some things being subtick and some things being tickrate-tied to be resolved.
they just should make animation a local thing not server dependent so there is no problem with delay. There is no point to make visuals on ur pc and not on server.
This would explain many oddities about shooting like the sprays not connecting even they are the same as in go or not getting kills because you stopped shooting after the right amount of shots but actually shot one bullet short of a kill. I suspect this is not only tied to visuals but audio cues too. You often don't hear defuse or plant sounds in cs2 but other players do. Could also may be be a sync problem between tick and subtick.
Saw some videos on this Delay topic but wasn't really satisfied with some of the explanations, so I'm glad you stepped in the clear things up. This actually makes sense, ty
@@thing4826 Not to mention neither subtick will be instant cause you forgetting your ping. So if you get 20 ping in subtick you will get exact 20 ping but 20+extra 7ms ping in 128tick + crisp gunplay. Take one. Do extra 7 makes any difference?
@@Wavpro he made it for slow motion ? You play in slow motion ? Show me 1 clip where your bullet missed cause of 128 tick ? even for PROS standard its 9.9/10
i don't think that's something they can fix, its just that it explains to people why it does feel weird, cause i felt something off, but it wasn't affecting the gameplay - maybe i'll play it more now
Im confused as to why the shooting animation would be tied to the tick rate in the 1st place. Only thing I can imagine is that as the server still only updates the game state every tick that they want to make sure that a firing animation is only played if you actually had a chance to shoot (aka make sure you weren't dead on another players screen)
@@rogerelzenga4465 yea ngl I hadn't thought it through properly. The longer I think about it the harder it seems to integrate, without a tick system. In my defense I just woke up😅.
Valve could very well make CS2 a 64 tick like CSGO and it would still make less noise compared to their subtick is making now. The game feels off, The spray is off. For the cost of what ? I never seen any pros even asked for that fancy tickless shooting. They prolly did it to make it sound amazing and revolutionary to get all the praise but surely its now backfiring.
Watched, great vid! Seems to me like solving this "problem" without reverting back to what we have in csgo would be difficult, but I'm hopeful they can fix it anyway!
For some reason this serverside presicion only seems to apply to onetaps, pistols/deagle that seem really op in cs2. At the same time u can spray at someone almost point blank and get 2 hits out of 10 bullets, Sometimes server decides to be precise other times exactly the opposite. Hope they figure it out before the official release.
Watched and loved it! Great research by everyone involved, and thank you for compiling, distilling, furthering the research, and spreading the word! :) I have some thoughts on this and would like to share them to see if any sound applicable / realistic. So, to clarify my understanding of subtick and its relation to this situation, as MrMaxim explains in the video, the subtick is tracking the exact sub-second moment that the shot is registered on the client side, and waiting for the next server-tick to register that information. This delay, from my understanding (could be wrong, of course), applies to both the registration of the shot (ie, server registers and displays player dead if you shot while they were in your crosshair), as well as the shot animation. I believe this is exemplified in the way the enemy character continues to walk, even on client side, while it waits to receive confirmation that there are no conflicting actions that happened before that millisecond that could negate it. POSSIBLE SOLUTION: I suggest merely switching the animations / sounds of gunfire to a client side action, similar to the way the sounds of switching your weapons is neither broadcasted to or from the server. I believe this option is likely something valve has already or is currently still considering, and maybe they were just waiting for the cs2 server infrastructure and interp settings to be at a more reliable place before doing this. It's hard to speculate on that side of things, however, I do believe that switching it to client side is a good long term solution. No matter how you slice it, with the subtick system being the route, there will be delay or backtraces on some end, to account for conflicting outcomes etc, but their are similar drawbacks to the old system as well, so im fine with them working to iron this one out. Having the sound on the client side would remove the audio / visual delay that feels so disjarring for the shots. Everyone on the server will still get aggregated events for all subtick events that happen on other clients, since, to our current knowledge of the system, it's still registering and transmitting the subtick information back and forth to the clients via 64 ticks. Hopefully there are no obstacles that make this solution unfeasible. Please let me know if you have any thoughts on this :) I appreciate that valve is taking the time to work on the server related settings / defaults for in game (interp updates recently), as well as work out kinks in the finer details of the game / server to get it to be polished
Very well said. One thing to keep in mind is that backtrack or rollback synchronization is very hard to get right in netcode, especially in some like CSGO, where so much can actually happen in one tick, on the server and in every client. That being said, they did get subtick implemented, so who knows
Watched. Does this mean the firing animation is rendered server-side? If so; is it a possible solution to make the animation client-side? You would see the animation on "click" which would fix the weird feeling when shooting. They just have to sync the weapon handling on tick-basis to make it competitively viable and prevent issues with guns showing to enemies while it doesnt look that way on you own screen.
no, its client side already. and @pudgebooster there already is a delay between shooting and enemies dying, its just so small on low ping you dont notice it
Nope the animation is for sure only client sided. The server would just waste precious resources. It's not so much that animation is rendered server-side, but the game state is calculated (and verified) by the server. I assume that they only give you the ok to shoot once the server has decided that you shot while you were still alive. But even that I'm not of as hardly anyone has a < 15ms ping. So it might just be that the entire animation rendering process is tied to the tick rate
@@wazzaaaa05 you realise clients run on ticks too right? stop spreading misinformation when you dont know what you're talking about. go play on a 350 ping server right now and try shooting. there's no delay (apart from whats shown in this video)
Nice research man. It seems about right. Now I am able to understand the sub-tick concept much clearer than before (depending upon the accuracy of this research). Let's hope Valve has some solution to this. It will be amazing if Valve figures out a way to tackle this. 🤞
yea. this is pissing me off, and the dude in the video said it was good. its more "accurate" but at the same time NOT accurate at all. hitboxes and subtick is fucked in CS2 just copy everything, Movement. Aiming. flicking. jumping. and so on from CSGO imo
Watched. I guess thats why spraying is difficult in cs2. We control the recoil based on the animations of the bullets being fired. If animation doesnt line up it could mean the actual spray might even be whole bullet ahead of the animation based on which we compensate.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if the shooting animation was instantaneous and done locally, wouldn't there be a delay before the enemy is killed (since this would be calculated server side, and on the next tick)? Maybe it would be small enough to not really notice.
@@mitchg93 what? shooting animations are already done locally, the only delay is the subtick issue shown in this video. and because it's already local, there is already a delay before enemies are killed. i'm not saying don't fix the issue in this video, i think it would be a great fix to have shooting animations start as soon as you click. i'm just saying that there's already a delay before enemies are killed, just with ~30 ping you can't notice it so it looks like there isn't any.
watched. This makes a lot of sense. I always felt like the hit reg is so much better and the sprays are the same but thought that the odd feeling comes from the viewmodel values. Turns out it's not the the viewmodels but the animations but they are displayed via the viewmodels, so I was kind of in the right direction. I suppose it's not as easy a fix as to trigger the animation client sided immediately, otherwise Valve would have done it already months ago before the limited test. Let's just hope someone really smart comes up with a good solution.
The more I think about it, the more it seem impossible to solve without adding worst problems... What people fail to understand is that the tick is not only for the server, it's how a game update each frame. The client still use tick for each frame... The only difference is that servers generally have fixed tick-rate, when clients or local games have variable tick-rate based on the FPS. In short, if you move the animation entierely client-side the offset will be dependent on your FPS, creating a very large advantage for thoses that have better machines. In addition you will have roll-back problems (you shoot but you were already dead, you shoot but in fact you are already recharging, etc).
watched pog thanks for the very informative video mr maxim, been watching you ever since 2015 and its really cool to see you still in this CS space. much love
Watched. This is why from day 1 I knew that this would be the CS we were all waiting for Subtick on it’s own makes so much sense. Base 64 tick sounds awful, but if moving and especially shooting is registered in an instant, then there’s essentially no major downside. It’s only an issue if Valve can’t sync the shooting animations and shot registration somehow
Thanks for the video, Max! Now can you do a video on why CS2 spray feels weird as well? Because it felt inconsistent and needs to pull mouse down more compare to CSGO
@@ZajebisteJakPojebane 1) I dont know what the point of that argument is? Here I am providing a data point from the POV of a MP7 user so OP can help figure out if its a weapon based issue or game based issue. And you are trying to make it out as if the opinion of a silver player does not matter? 2) I usually hover between MGE-LE. Once in a blue moon, I touch LEM, but my reactions are simply not what they were and I'm probably never gonna get a higher rank because I just don't have the drive to push myself. This is just a game where I hang out with my mates and have fun. In the past, I used to be SMFC. And yes, that was me using XM and MP7 back in the day.
That is also the reason why we see more responsiveness in 128 ticks as compared to 64 tick in the sub tick system. If valve optimises it then 64 tick vs 128 tick may not be an argument in the near future.
watched, i think your explanation is on point . I am more worried about cheater situation , can you make video about that (what has been promised and what to expect from valve in this matter) ? thanks for good content , keep up the good work !!!
thanks for making vids man. youre super on point and direct in these and i love that. youre a super easy video to send to a confused friend abt how stuff works thanks maxim
watched, this actually makes a lot of sense as to why pistols feel inconsistent and smgs feel more consistent - slower firerate guns will make this effect more noticable, whereas higher firerate guns can almost mask the fact there's a slight disconnect
Emmm... Like opposite. In terms of pistols - you will not see any difference in animation behavior between cs2 and csgo. The only difference is that in cs2 the shots will be calculated more precise, and "if you aim at the enemy on your screen" - it will count as a hit. But with high rate firearms, when you spray - what you see on the screen is not what actually have been shot, because animation and calculation are desynched is cs2 (which wasn't the case in csgo)
I don't think people will ever stop complaining unless they get 128-tick servers coz it has been wired in our minds that it is the only solution. More apparent from Valorant and faceit's servers.
watched, idk how to say this, but ffs i love your videos! vice man with real sources of how things work! i live for this game and you just give me real pristine content about it! thank you !
good explanation glad to see sub tick works ,but on another note i saw an in depth vid the other day saying cs2 also has a wildly variable input lag issue also constantly goiing from 5ms up to 30 and constantly changing making it harder to be consistent than csgo which had a much lower variance and was much more steady
There's 0 input lag in cs2 if you have watched the video, there's visual response lag because the server runs on 64 tick and processes the input information on the next tick hence the 15.625 ms average delay
@@FloIstMoep im going to guess due to sound effects? As thats a huge thing in counter strike. Gives away positions and if thats delayed it could be the difference between getting the kill or being killed
They probably synced the animations to the server tickrate because in csgo, the bullets would also be synced to the server tickrate and it would produce a more accurate experience and guns would feel way better and more responsive this way. Then, in cs2, they forgot to remove the animation delay and now everyone can't spray for shit. In simpler terms, csgo had the exact opposite issue where the animation would play before the bullet fired. They fixed this by syncing them to the tickrate. When moving to cs2, they forgot to stop syncing them to the tickrate. Thus, we are having the exact same problem years later. This time, it's due to the fix to the last problem.
@@DR-54 Even sincing the animation to the tickrate in CS:GO sounds crazy to me. You want a game to be reactive. The time between the click and the action on screen has to be the lowest possible. The hits registering on the server are a different matter, and that's were we have those 64 checks per second (are you hitting that guy, or not?). If I had to guess, people sometimes miss on CS2 because everything is slightly different, and those difference added up make them miss the first bullet, or their spray timing.
Watched Yeah i feel like the visual factor is just that final brick in the wall that needs to be added/fixed in order for the foundation of CS2 to be perfect. That, and better performance on CPUs post 2013. Its also interesting to see how many players, including myself, can somehow feel even the slightest delay/offset in the timings of everything too.
How could they fix the visual factor ? Shooting isn't tied to tickrate and the visual factor is tied to tick rate. There is an unavoidable 15.625 ms delay on 64 ticks that is not possible to remove. They wanted to make 64 tick subtick better than 128 tick and made 128 tick even more necessary
@@dodu-zi8bd Dont ask me, im not a software expert or game dev. But we know that if the disappearance of tracers can alter the feeling of the game by a lot, a very VERY small factor like the animations not being in sync with the tickrate could still heavily change the handling of weapons in game. Lets just see how valve does it though. Their fix streak is getting good.
Watched! Another quality video. This makes a lot of sense, maybe a reason spraying feels off as the animation is probably off from when actually firing by the difference between the moment you click and the next tick.
There's a guy on youtube that did a circle flick test on csgo and cs2 with all guns and he found that if you are moving your mouse when shooting, the shot goes first before the mouse crosshair. So if you do a 360 and shoot and stop immediately, for that he used a bind and script in cs2, but if you do that, then the shot bullet hole will appear first and the crosshair will exceed it moving forward. This video explains why that happens.
Yeah, the shot gets registered at a subtick level and shoots instantly (as it should), but your crosshair movement is way too frequent to reasonably be sent to the server at a subtick level so it will still be moving during the remaining milliseconds after the subtick was processed, and end up at a separate place from where you shot once the next tick arrives. It's basically like subtick removed the tick-rate based input delay that we're all used to experiencing which makes things far more precise but causes weird situations like this to happen due to how shooting and movement are separate from the tickrate system while crosshair position is still tied to the tickrate.
In csgo when flicking the left click is pressed when the crosshair is exactly on the head, not before. Definitely in my opinion CS2 is not really accurate.
the keybind stops the spinning and clicks at the same time, so therefore the shot is where you stopped, so the bullet shouldnt be behind the corsshair@@Ashen75
@@AlbertWesker_GOAT Cursor movement is still being fully processed at a client-side level so if you really clicked on the head from your perspective, as long as latency interpolation issues don't occur you will hit your shot. The server won't show that you were aiming at the head and the VOD probably also won't show it since VODs record things from the server's perspective, but as long as it happened from your client-side perspective, your game will use the sub-tick system to tell the server that the shot happened at the exact point it was from your perspective, and it will register it as a hit.
totally agree, what i also really dont like is shooting after being hit with a nade. idk why but it just feels wrong to shoot without any type of noise to go with the shot (even if you where to only hear your own shots dampened)
I think you explained completely correct but it’s weird since if you would play the CSGO example 10 times there is a chance that you would hit several shots because the tick is happening like 0.5 ms after your shot thus making it more inconsistent than CS2 where you always hit the shot only the animation is delayed. I’m curious to see what solution Valve comes up with but otherwise I think we just have to get used to it.
@@MrBa143 the same happens in CSGO. If you click there is also a delay between 1 and 15 ms when your shot registers and then its not compensated for the moment you clicked (the sub-tick) so the new system is objectively better.
I honestly think the trade-off is worth it, you can get used to the animations eventually, while you can't do anything about the hit reg being imperfect on any tick rate.
It just feels horrible. I don't even think that fixing the firing animation would resolve the issue as the enemy's player model would still move until the next tick and I think that's the thing that throws me off the most personally
Movement is also processed at a subtick level though, so you will still be hitting shots that you were supposed to hit. Any issues regarding enemy movement are mostly a result of latency-based interpolation, which is another issue of its own.
@@Ashen75 yea that's not what I meant, but its just super confusing if the subtick already knows you got the kill, yet the player keeps moving until the next tick
Why are they so stubborn with their 64 ticks ? They are working on a new source engine making the game unavailable for potatoe pc. If you have a decent pc (literally a pc that can run cs2 with 60+ fps) there is a great chance that 128 tick doesn’t impact your computer. 64 tick was arguable when you could play with a toaster but now ?
It's not only a good pc, but also a good internet connection that is stable. Someone with like say 16k or 25k has a worse experience on 128tick than a person who has 50k or 100k etc.
cause its more expensive to run, and now that they have subtick it makes even less sense to switch over since the only thing wrong now is the firing animation, which people will get used to until they tie it to subtick, if even possible
Thanks for explaining the whole process behind the sub tick. I did notice on dm while playing that i was landing more headshots than usual, it felt a lot better on my very first dm ive played.
You could theoreticly dissconect the animation trigger from running on tick updates and instead only run it localy on keystroke trigger. Don't know anything at all about the source/source2 engine but if the UI isn't locked to ticks they should be able to to something similar to that.
Watched. Really interesting info Maxim! Hopefully they can fix this by syncronizing the animation somehow. Hitreg def feels better so once this is fixed it will feel much more solid.
can also feel the action and animation registering with nades. pull out a nade and try toss it and switch back to your gun, we always do to save those preciouses milliseconds, often you wont even get passed tossing the nade part of this. always feel i got to wait 120ms or so just to be safe that the nade gets thrown with out being put back in your pocket.
I think sub tick is better but sometimes there is a noticeable delay before i shoot my gun. The place you notice the most is shooting inferno's bells in a certain pattern repeating it. This is how you feel the most of the delay.
watched, nice video. Ive played 100+ hours of cs2 and could never put my finger on why it felt weird at times but this made so much sense.. i wonder if theres a way to implement subtick firing animations?
Watched. This truly feels like an accurate description as to why shooting doesn’t quite feel the same. It may look the same, but many of us with the muscle memory of CSGO can just feel that something is off. Off-topic, but I wonder if this is the same case with movement? My friends and I describe it as sometimes it feels like our characters are “sliding on ice.”
Watched! Alla dina videos såklart ;) Detta är så J*VLA bra förklaring och om dem löser problemet är det ju nice! Om dem fixar så att skottet avfyras tidigare så blir det jobbigt, och vad händer om 2 spelare skjuter på EXAKT samma tic, och registreras på nästa, vem dör? :O
