You ever seen the video of Randy Johnson smoking a bird with a fastball during a game? It’s like that but with derailleur’s and a much faster fast ball 😂
Sram's not pushing anything. It's basically 'free' marketing to them. Give content creator's your new product, tell them the features and let them have at it. Creators have had the groupsets available to them to make videos. Embargo lifts and content is available.
@Logan Patrick Nelson Could you make another video and go into deatil? Im curious if the new 8bolt mount chanrings will fit with old SRAM 12 speed chains? On web site they say these chainrings are only for new type of chain, but visually the teeth on chainring look identical to old SRAM chainrings... Thanks.
SRAM and other companies usually have media embargoes so it makes sense that everybody who had this already would release this on the same day to be "first"
Honestly SRAM owes you guys some commission. This is way better than anything that came out of SRAMs marketing department and should silence a lot of people complaining about the durability of Transmission.
As an applied physics undergraduate (who is learning Lagrangian atm), it was sooooo exciting to hear that the silly methods used in this vid count as a professional application of a degree im pursuing. epic. cant wait to do something equally dumb/informative in the future
They clearly don't have even the slightest understanding of physics, inertia, momentum, etc. The last test that destroyed the derailleur is actually the only realistic result of what would happen if the bike is flying and hits a rock. The others just pushed the gears and absorbed the inertia.
This experiment only tests the durability of the parallelogram. I would actually like to see how carbon dropouts would fare after an impact to the lug piece that the UDH bolt holds in place, you know the piece just above the parallelogram. Most people are worried about damage to their carbon dropouts if the impact is on that wide silver section right by the setup button since that's the part that will transfer the impact force directly into the dropout.
That side impact that broke the parallelogram actually impacted the b-knuckle (the piece you refer to) first, before then hitting the parallelogram. See here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-i3QzPxdN1e4.html - Dan P.
@@FanatikBikeCo you should do a analysis of the rear triangle material after all these whacks. Surely, that would be a more comprehensive look at where the shock is going, no?
The entire bike was absorbing the shock because the bike was suspended. Have someone sit on the bike with the tire on the floor and do it. Saw the brace at the end but it was still moving alot.
It is true. Not a perfect test. We actually broke the door on the bench it hit it so hard. Things to learn from! Cheers, Dan P. P.S. I don't think we could have volunteered anyone to sit on that thing with that whacker loaded up like it was!! 😲😅
but i'd venture to guess if you did the same test on a different bike with a conventional style setup, it would have given up the ghost a long time ago.
Making an immensely stiff and strong derailleur mount is fine but what shock loads is it putting into the carbon rear triangle and linkage?! Energy in, is energy out. A very risky design. Scan the carbon for delamination...
It's actually all going into the axle, which is supported by both sides of the rear triangle. So you're not wrong, but it's an extremely solid design. Like, your rear triangle's dropouts are dealing with massively larger forces than this from hits on the trail and drops and jumps, etc. If you don't trust this, you may as well not trust your bike to ride it. - Dan P.
16:49 my set of shimano rims actually have a hole in the sidewall to allow water to drain out of the double wall. The water comes in from the spoke nipple holes, learnt that the hard way when doing creek crossings
Loved the video and the approach to thinking about failure modes. I would have liked to see the same test on a Shimano cable shifted derailleur as well for comparison.
That would have been sweet, but at 26 minutes long we felt like we were pushing it already. Figured keep the test to a parallel product category. Glad you enjoyed it! - Dan P.
Halfway through the video and I'm honestly impressed how well the original AXS derailleur held up. It almost makes me wonder why SRAM went through the hassle of making a proprietary version with Transmission, and potentially leaving the dropouts as a point of failure instead of a hanger. But I guess time will tell as they get ridden in real-world conditions.
They won't. Most of the core stuff that makes this awesome is only available due to it being 'smart'. Introducing mechanical indexing and variables such as cable tension mean that you cannot apply the vast majority of the advantages that you have with Transmission. Think of Gen 1 AXS as an electronic emulation of a mechanical drive train, where as this Gen 2 AXS is if you forget about mechanical ever existing.
The part that's missing here is rate of work...aka power. The power of that impact is much much much greater than the power of Dan impacting at 2.5 mph.
Hahaha, there was a lot missing here from this experiment, but yes. I originally wanted to calculate the force of the impacts, but it was going to be harder than what we had time for, so we settled on momentum as a frame of reference. Cheers! Dan P.
Would love to hear how much speed loss due to impact the hits would equate to if you (Dan) were riding say 15mph so it becomes more relatable. Knowing for example that the derailler could take a hit hard enough to take out 1/3 of your speed at 15mph would be very reassuring
The huge assumption is that the spindle and rear triangle hasn't received a shock beyond its elastic limit, which isn't visible. Single seat race cars carbon suspension wishbones are strong in one direction, weak in all others.
so what this test showed me, that the normal derailleur hanger is just perfectly fine and easy replaceable, where on the new derailleur you would need to press out a bent pin to replace a part of the parallelogram and then still hope that it might fix the problem. all that for the very cheap price of 1500 dollars.
the second that dude started talking about the math i knew he would make an excellent programmer and sure enough a couple mins later hes like "yeah i wrote a script to do the math for me"
I was concerned that a more frontal impact was going to damage the frame since they are not build to handle torque in that area but I didn't know that it could rotate back like that. I really hope they also bring this to cabled shifters
So it's actually a feature of the UDH!! So that can happen on normal derailleurs on bikes with UDH. Re-watch this part for an example: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-i3QzPxdN1e4.html - Dan P
I think 2020 bikes and up mostly have UDH which do the same thing. I'm still interested in seeing how this affects carbon though ... SRAM ran all the tests so I'm not overly concerned. Just think about the backlash they'd get if a bunch of carbon frames started breaking.
This is such a great progress from the cranks breaking video. However, I think the impact would come from the direction of the travel (like when you hit a stump or rock), but your angled dangle pendulum was quite close. The impact from the side is way less likely. To smash a derailleur and provide with some number is way betther then do a silly "stepping test". Looking forwared to the next video
would be interesting to see if anything changes when the bike isnt suspended in the air, i think possibly some force was dissipated into rotating the bike, so maybe dropping a guided weight when bike is lying down would generate different results
I know they’re pushing this “fully rebuildable” line, but SRAM’s track record on actually making spare parts available for purchase is dismal to the point of considering it non-factor. I have two sets of expensive 11-speed road shifters that can’t be used because the poorly designed hydro piston seals swoll up and SRAM have not made the replacements available for a couple of years now. So yeah, good luck rebuilding these, but I’m sure the complete (and crazy expensive) replacement derailleurs will be available everywhere, all the time though. You will of course buy it because you’re now locked into a highly proprietary system and have no other choice without replacing the entire drivetrain.
I destroyed my SLX derailleur. I'm 230lbs. I was going around 6-8mph. A rock shaped like 2 slices of bread got sucked into my rear wheel and literally destroyed my derailleur. I probably would never be able to duplicate the way it went into my wheel. There's always a chance something unforseen will happen.
Almost the same thing happened to me on my deore derailleur. Was riding slowly over a bridge to a rocky drop and snapped the pulley cage straight off on a rock when riding off the bridge. Thankfully a new deore derailleur is only $60. Also - would be interesting to see if they introduced the load on the pulley cage either from the side like in this test or from below. I feel like those are the two most likely hits you'll get from rocks when actually riding on the trail that could break a derailleur.
So it looks like the point of failure has been moved to the parallelogram. Which is fine, that means there's something that will break before the frame does. But I'll believe it's rebuild-able when parts actually show up.
Keep an eye out on our social media accounts. We have the replacement parts en route now and once we get them we'll slap them on and get it back on the bike to make sure everything is running smooth again!
This is well done. I think most of us riders have more problems with sticks getting caught in our derailleur where the chain goes in at the bottom more than objects hitting the derailleur. I have destroyed 3 derailleurs by a stick getting caught in the bottom.
This is a very good experiment. It looks like the xx1 axs is almost as strong a the new xx/xo rd. it would have been nice if you could x ray the rear triangle of the frame to see if it has caused any microcracks on the carbon fiber frame.
Yup. I think most of us are thinking the same thing, so I'm sure SRAM did all the testing and probably consulted with different frame manufacturers. I don't see how this doesn't have a negative impact (pun intended) on the carbon though. I'm not an engineer and don't know much about physics, but I do know carbon absorbs force, so I'll have to wait and see some long term testing. Not that I'd buy AXS anyway, but it'll trickle down if it's as good as advertised.
@@topspot4834 only time will tell. always a good thing if it trickles down like what happened to gx. Same thing with a price affordable to the common people.
@@topspot4834 First comment: if you've ever tried to turn a wrench with a very short handle, you'll know that it's nearly impossible to loosen a tightly torqued down nut or bolt. In this case, because the derailleur is mounted immediately next to the dropouts, it really just can't exert all that much force/torque on the frame along the axle. If the derailleur was like 5 feet long though, then a more sizeable force could be exerted on the frame that could possibly cause damage. Second comment: also from what I've seen (and i may be wrong), it appears the new derailleur isn't actually even mounted to the frame, it's mounted only on the axle on both the inside and outside of the frame dropout. What this means is that any torque exerted on the derailleur from impact on a rock or object will actually be exerted on the axle and not the frame. So per the argument from comment 1 above, it would require a very significant force to bend the axle, and i find it highly unlikely that would occur before something on the derailleur fails.
That was my initial take, but after learning more about it and spending some time on it, I've changed my mind. We've actually got a second video coming out later today that focuses more on the actual changes, I'll link it here when it's released! Dan P.
@@TurboWolf5000 Totally fair. Definitely not intended to be a budget system-GX is there for a high quality, less expensive option. One of SRAM's reps described bikes equipped with Transmission as "Ferraris," if that gives you an idea of who they're targeting it. Cheers - Dan P.
Hope you are paying your python coding, diff equation calculating servicemen appropriately! Bringing in people that actually know about engineering and a little physics is what sets this test apart from the others, well done!
The best drivetrain comparison vid of all time. Freakin great! Might as well use your pendulum tester now for all rear mech so we can see results. Thanks!
James was an incredible help in this project! I tried to use my 12 year old memory of physics 101 to figure this stuff out and, unsurprisingly, failed. I'm super glad he was able to entertain the project despite being in the middle of his midterms!! - Dan P.
I think the wrong conclusion was reached. To get straight to the point: except for accidents involving baseball-like objects hitting the derailleur at speeds exceeding 1350mph, the regular hanger-based rear derailleur is superior to the Transmission derailleur due to the hanger deflecting forces to itself instead of the derailleur, leading to the spare derailleur hanger being the solution for most catastrophic rear derailleur impacts. The new Transmission RD, on the other hand, would be harder to service on the road or trail. An accidental impact would lead to the derailleur itself being destroyed, any part of which could break, which would necessitate carrying all spare parts if one hopes to repair it on the spot. The elephant in the room, of course, is that without the RD hanger, forces directed at the RD are, pun intended, **transmitted** directly to the frame rather than to an inexpensive, easily carried, easily serviceable part, with the worst case scenario being irreparable damage to the frame, which costs much more than a new RD and considerably more than a derailleur hanger. I loved the video... because it reinforces in my mind the utility of the RD hanger to sacrifice itself by deflecting RD impacts, and the toughness of the AXS non-Transmission RD.
You guys should replace the broken piece and then see if it works. I have some doubts sadly. Tons of 12 speed derailleurs don’t look bent to the eye, but are bent enough to cause shifting problems.
Great content definitely most entertaining SRAM transmission content on the tube, and highlights the great features this new tech gives to mountain biking 👍
What about a thick branch in the wheel? A hanger could snap. But I guess they went for strong enough materials for it to not be an issue, and cage will likely bend, but would be interesting to see this.
Great video but my only reservation about the new derailleur would be that most people I know would carry a spare derailleur hanger. This could be replaced quite quickly and you would be on your way again. Very unlikely that you would have the replacement parts for the new derailleur to hand ahead of time. If you were on a trip somewhere for the weekend say it would be game over unless you could get the parts from a local shop. I accept the new derailleur looks a lot more robust so less likely to break in the first instance but still an issue which we will only know about in the fullness of time. SRAM relying on user testing in the field.
The parts are $22 for the kit, and are actually smaller than a hanger. You could very easily carry them! We replaced them in this video, the derailleur returned to normal functioning: ru-vid.comP9-LFW_PtIU
That was fun to watch, but you definitely need to have someone seated on the bike for that test. There is a whole lot of energy being dissipated through the clamp and bike stand. The bracing on the opposing side obviously moves too much. Having someone seated on it would stabilize the whole bike from top and bottom to be more real world. As long as there right leg is on the pedal and they have something to brace against, I wouldn't be worried about the impact much. Especially if you start with less weight to make an impact. I would think less weight would be needed to damage the derailleur using that setup. Great video. It addresses my worries about the new drivetrain.
This test is damn good and entertaining. Remember that while riding, a 60-130kg rider is on the bike; When the bike is in the bike stand, it is allowed to move a lot, so if someone were to sit on it during the test, I would expect the derailleur to fail sooner. Edit: Saw the sophisticated bracing method, which surely makes the hits harder. Amazing how much the rear mech actually can stomach! I'm just going to buy the older gen axs, its 3k usd in norway for the new one...
In 8+ years, my first full suspension bike with XT 2x10 speed never had the derailleur hanger bent. Never despite falling on the drive side numerous times. Then I got a new bike with sram gx eagle and bent the udh 3 times in one year. Funny thing, I never hit the derailleur in the parallelogram. I always hit it above it, I guess because I was using bigger cogs... Anyway, sneaky move from sram since now they also broke compatibility with shimano...
To me durability is not a problem. The main issue of the product is frame tolerances eg 148 boost dropout can be 150mm and it changes once it's tightened.
Our pleasure! It is pretty sweet. You can find it here: www.fanatikbike.com/pages/search-results-page?q=transmission&page=1&rb_product_type=Groupsets - Dan P.
We need a ranking table for all rear mechs. I killed a Shimano XT on it's first ride by cutting a corner with a rock on the inside, money straight in the bin
You must have gotten a good one. My new bike came with XO transmission and it will not shift correctly. It skips a few gears, no matter where micro adjust is set. The shop couldn't fix it and I haven't been able to fix it.
We considered aiming the "whacker" at the cage, but after polling a few coworkers we concluded that a large number of impacts happen on the b-knuckle and parallelogram, since they jut out to the side more. It also is (obviously) a stronger part of the derailleur, and we wanted to allow for some more impressive whacks. Anyhow, that's what we landed on for this particular test. Anyhow, hope you found it informative. Cheers, Dan P.
I'm interested to see what happens if you get an impact when you're in the top gear position... That position seems to carry the most risk for an impact. But the good news is that you'd be going very slowly in that gear.
Probably the most convincing video I've seen regarding the new SRAM 'transmission'. But wow- we just thought 2023 model bikes were expensive....when this becomes available on bikes as OEM, the price of this group set is like buying Specialized S-Works level stuff!!
What's gonna be funny is if Sram never releases the supposed "replaceable" parts so that means a new Der anyways, compared to simply rebending/replacing hangers. And currently that also means you have to buy the whole groupset if you happened to break one thing. ... Nice
Overall great video and informative, very helpful! Only question I have is why didn’t you start low and ramp up the tests on the new transmission? You took the first transmission from low to high to find the failure point. However with the new setup you went strait to a high level force and broke it instantly. This just says the same force breaks both, not which one is stronger.
In retrospect, we should have. James had a final exam the next day he needed to got study for, so we were short on time. With that in mind, we figured the new derailleur ought to be at least as strong as the old, so we could start at the weight the old one broke and see how it held up. It did just fine on that first angled hit, and then of course you saw the part of the parallelogram break on the second hit. We then replaced those parts after the fact, and the derailleur is back to shifting like new. You can see that update here: ru-vid.comP9-LFW_PtIU - Dan P.
