Java 21 Is Good?! | Prime Reacts 

Kotlin can give you those features even on Java 8 😉

@@jayshartzer844 Good luck convincing Java developers using it, though. They're drawn to boiler plate and terrible type systems like moths to a flame.

Working in banking?

​@@Fiercesoulkingwhat's wrong with openJDK?

same LMAO

I audibly laughed at this comment

Java being the oddball trying to fit in with the cool kids, except now that 30 years have passed it just gives off Steve Buscemi "how do you do fellow kids" vibes

ThePrimeTime is exposed.

Prime is actually 37.

Java is chris chan

Java really has gone full circle. 🤣🤣🤣

they're basically sealed classes in kotlin, but they're interfaces so more applicable. but at the same time, kotlin can autocast stuff for you, and its when expression doesn't need a subject, so it has no need for its sealed keyword to be applicable to interfaces, where it barely even makes sense. also java already has enum classes, which are a tagged union, which are a more concise version of this, as far as i can tell.

Yup. Sealed class hierarchy instead of a tagged union type. The use cases are the same as rust enums when you need a limited, limited set of shapes with some compiler help around completeness at usage sites. They just made it awkward as by having the interface have to forward declare its children. Probably so they can put it into the byte-code and enforce it at runtime. AFAIK each class compiled to a seperate loadable unit. Each is essentially an island in the JVM.

​@@Bliss467Kotlin has sealed interfaces, and they're a lot lot nicer. Remember that you can only inherit from one class, but from multiple interfaces, and that carries over to multiple sealed interfaces

Five months later I am watching this again now. Discriminated unions are currently a really high requested feature by many people in C# too. I guess chances are pretty large that a similar approach to this will be done for C# as well. Simply limit your inheritance options, so that you can do exhaustive pattern matting. Voila. This also matches with F# quite well which is compiled into a set of classes in a similar fashion. And this matters if people want both dotnet languages be able to work together very well. This approach has probably also the least interference with existing design patterns in OOP style languages. But silently I like actual Rust style enums more, which are more concise. Sometimes conciseness is not the only consideration however, so you have to fall back to existing language elements and improve those instead.

Java being Java... Focused on Enterprise.

Yep, he missed the whole point.

What does color mean here?

@@lhxperimental google function coloring

It's great they didn't give into the async await garbage

It just means they locked certain libs for specific versions since java does all it can to be backwards compatible Syntactic sugar it usually ment to reduce the amount of code you write to make it more readable and faster to write while doing the same thing under the hood when the code is compiled

I feel you. I just quit a job, because they still used java.util.Calendar all over the place. And they were so proud they just recently switched to Java 8. It’s just embarrassing when you know what modern Java actually looks and feels like.

Java is proof that enterprises are completely unable to identify opportunity costs.

That's what i don't get it, the very things the people use like RU-vid are written mostly in java but everyone says that is old, bad and no one is using it.

@@AlejandroAndraca RU-vid servers are written (mostly) in python.

They do love their zero day vulnerabilities for sure

Its right most of the companies stay with what they have and Java is a nice enterprise language. Javas problem besides the license stuff from Oracle. Is the whole framework madness for lack of better words. They built frameworks on top of frameworks on top of frameworks. Mostly all of things settled on Spring Boots which is also just a meta framework. There a 3 reasons why this is so bad . 1 You have the broken virtual class problem finding the bug is super hard and can be caused by anyone in the chain who updated his product which also result in a very slow update process. 2. Java is the programming language with the most dependency injection vectors including this . other are Maven or now worse Gradle 3. Back then those people who could handel this were called JEE devs and made 30% to 50% more then the other devs which is a negativ for a company.

​@@Fiercesoulking Can we please agree to stop using the word "meta-framework"? It's completely meaningless. Also, "Dependency injection vectors"? "Maven or now worse Gradle"?

@@JohnyS113 This is about Java, not JavaScript, so != is correct.

​@@Fiercesoulkingyou talking tottally bullshit about spring boot ecosystem. I Working java developer several years and i never met with problem in you comments. Even i use java 17+ versions every day. Java frameworks are awesome and there is no programming languages which has even close to spring boot (mb c#, but it also java).

You might be even be able to use it at your organization ... in like 20 years when they catch up with this version 😁😁

Why? It's not like you're gonna write anything newer than 11 for the next 20 years

@daycred I dont mean to brag but we just upgraded to 17

@@petrzurek5713 well, there is an interesting development Oracle sells support plans. If the company don't upgrade then they have to pay Oracle for support. If they don't pay Oracle for support and they operate in EU then when they are hacked and during the hack there is leak personal information, EU can impose penalties up to 4% of last year profits If ain't broke don't fix it doesn't work any more

@@KoboldAdvocatelmaoo

100% agree, the dullness when using it 10x makes up the ease of development when you're in a team. Also Spring Boot.

It's like Angular, except angular isn't behind on features

It's got a stable amount of zero day vulnerabilities

That's why I stopped with Java. Trying with Go. I already like it .

@@LiveErrors java pretty much has everything you need and want as of today honestly. Also, most of the stuff in the video is in the langiage since 3 years, also, metaprogramming is best out there pretty much.

not sure why they mentioned multiline strings and enhanced switch, but pattern matching and virtual threads are 21

Good thing since companies using Java still haven't even adopted 11

Yeah, the improved instanceof implementation is from Java 17 iirc

No, it's a list of features between Java 18 and 20. Java 17 was the last LTS release.

@@gontsaru Well, the only current LTS versions is 11. Extended support for 17 and 21 ends before that for 11 ends ... One should NOT buy the LTS moniker as Oracle uses it. Support for 17 even ends before 8! There would be more enterprises adopting a newer version than 8 or 11 if Oracle would actually commit to it ...

Or phases of a state machine

Yeah, it's basically the same as ADTs, but it's perhaps the clunkiest way they could have gone about it. Why not borrow from Rust or Swift and just have enums with associated values? It's a much cleaner, clearer way of writing an ADT.

In general I agree, but still they could (and should) improve the syntax. Having some kind of async await that automatically uses virtual threads could make it a serious nobrainer. Don’t get me wrong: I really love the feature with all its possibilities. I just wish there was some really simple stupid syntactic sugar (I call it the SSSS principle) for the most common use cases.

Better than Elixir processes, which are also lightweight, self-contained and *supervisable*?

@@benm1295 the whole point of virtual threads is to get the performance of async await with regular, blocking like APIs.

Really? How is it better than coroutines in dozens of other languages? My prediction: it's a good feature for teams already using the JVM, but it won't move the needle on performance benchmarks enough to convince anyone using Go or Rust to switch.

@@mikeswierczek Who said about convincing anyone using Go or Rust to switch? I never said that, I said "the whole point of virtual threads is to get the performance of async await with regular, blocking like APIs". Do you agree that the async/await syntax vs lack of constitutes an important semantic difference or not?

yeah... but the having to invert specify ... that is wild

That's why I compare it to rust enums, which do the same.

@@ThePrimeTimeagen Yeah its surprising but I see it as a tool for the software architect and his UML tools. Records are on a similar line with this.

I for example use it for my kafka consumers: A sealed interface KafkaMessage with a "type()" getter and other common message property getters, bunch of records implementing it inside, with different properties (the permits is implicit in this case since the records are declared inside), and smart deserialization based on type's value (with Jackson's @JsonSubTypes). Then I can have my handler receive KafkaMessages directly and switch on it with pattern matching (was already available in java 17 behind a flag) or not, and even switch on it later for other operations. It could have just been OOP instead (basically a KafkaMessage::handle method to override, instead of sealed+switch), it's just nice to have the option to have basically an enumeration of implementations that i can easily switch on safely, and it's sometimes a better approach, like if you have multiple operations depending on the implementation with common behaviour for some types depending on the operations and don't want to end up in an overkill OOP pattern to DRY that a junior dev (or you in two months) will take 2 days to understand: just switch on it instead when you need to, directly in your "main" logic code, imperative or functional. It's part of the effort to have less OOP and more functional code since java 8 and I like it. Well it's basically Java catching up to Kotlin, which is still the best jvm language IMO.

Scala does it in a very, very similar way and has done so forever. I really don’t see how it’s any weirder than using enums for it

those features smell like antipattern to me as they are agains the lisp substitution principle i was taught a long time ago... it is smelly.

okay but like, you can just make the interface private. if the user shouldn't implement a interface they prolly don't have a reason to query after it

the way they tried to improve current java enums it was still about those constant fields with methods, rather than sum types

Enums in Java are already good. Good is not defined as "whatever rust does this week"

LMAO you tried and failed, not Java.

rust misusing the term enums because they didn't dare use sum types is honestly really annoying. There is an almost complete disconnect between what everyone else means with enum and what rust means, and honestly, everyone else is correct.

They're handcuffed by backwards compartibility. So it's either come up with a new synax for data types or double down on records (I hate permits idea btw).

thank the lord someone commented this, I was going mad...

Hi. Please can you post something. I would like to read. No issues if you cant though. Have a great day

Did you get offended by this or am I reading this wrong?

Isn't that what the "default" case is for?

There was actually a method to it, there were 8 spaces for a line continuation and 4 spaces for a new scope. Their paren spacing sucks though, all-around ew.

Absolutely this. + you can spawn millions of VTs without performance loss of in context switching / pauses, or even ram usage

@@lufenmartofilia5804 Right! It is much better than async/await because code execution is a straight line; no promises no "then" methods. To be fair, though, per-virtual-thread ram usage is not zero, but neither is node.js async/await.

@@freeideas right but when a platform thread cost 1mb, a vt cost only 1kb. Which is totally marginal on 99% of scenarios haha 😁

Their problems lol, the language offers backwards compatibilty. (The only problem is passing from 8 to 10, then it's all going downhill)

We don’t want to clinge to Java8… but all the stupid dependencies on 20 years old dependencies that no one has a clue about forces is to

@@boredbytrash Like I said in the other comments this comes from framework stacking which is one thing which killed Javas momentum.

@@boredbytrash I guess it would be a great spring cleaning

​@alessioantinoro5713 My team is stuck on Java 8 forever. We don't want to be here

Records as well, which the product types. Minor nitpic, sorry. But my impression is that many people explain it incorrectly. The term ADT is the general term for both product types and sum types. These sealed interfaces are the sum types. Most functional programming languages call them tagged unions or discriminated unions. Some languages, such as Rust, call them enums.

jvm is overrated, you can get multiplatform with go easily.

@@Lemmy4555 The JVM is far more than for just supporting multiple platforms. You get a runtime that supports multiple languages, excellent JIT compiler, excellent GCs (far better than golang's), second to none introspection and observability capability, etc.

Tip: JVM languages like Scala, Kotlin, Groovy etc are experiments. The best parts from these languages are absorbed into Java after being battle tested and found useful for years. This curation process is why Java seems to move slow but it really helps keep the core clean. Scala was hot a decade ago now it's Kotlin. Google is pushing Kotlin for Android as it does not want Oracle to sue it in future. Don't get swayed so easily, there is value in a stable language.

@@zhamed9587 that's true, they don't have to reinvent the wheel everytime, but some of these takes are mitigated or fully handled by using LLVM like Rust and Julia does.

@@lhxperimental Yep, Java remains the platform language, and they're really utilizing the last mover advantage which I really like.

Or in other words, I would like to write *less* good code, please.

"Just write good code, don't blame the language." That what I told my students after they failed to write binary search in brainfuck.

Most of the problems with Java are the over complications Enterprisey devs create. We have a huge big data processing app in Java and I don't think we have s single Factory, let alone a Factory Factory, or a Java doc that contains nothing but 500 class definitions and no comments.

I can relate to your experience. Java was the first language I learned in depth at College. I enjoyed it a lot which I didn’t expect considering all of the hatred for the language. But now that I’ve learned a bit of C#, I see that what I enjoyed with Java was the OOP paradigm and not really the language itself. C#, to me, is essentially all the things I liked about Java without all the things I didn’t like

wait till you use c# for the second time. the first time is weird, coming from java, but the second time, you won't believe what is possible nowadays.

Java is a very thin layer of abstraction over its OOP. It's hard to have any opinion at all on Java without it actually being an opinion on its approach to OOP. You like the OOP.

@@FlaggedStar This is a very good way of putting it

@@Ellefsen97 kind of agree, my problem with C# was Microsoft , then Oracle acquired Java and I stop caring , after I discovered CoreNet, I still program in Java or Python, or JS depending the project

20 years older too.

@@banatibor83The joke and you rubbed shoulders and you just kept walking

AkShUallY its 1.21 so its 52 versions behind Rust

@@metaltyphoon They dropped the 1.x numbering starting with Java 9. Which broke programs that looked at only at the minor version. Then Java 10 broke programs that compared versions as strings. Also, more confusingly, "Java 2" refers to any Java between 1.2 and 1.5.

Spoke like a true corporate towing shill

Even though it started as a ripoff of Java, C# is today way ahead of it in nearly every aspect and its iteration cycles are significantly faster. So yeah I don't buy into your Java and Go exceptionalism. There are plenty other languages.

@@Y-JA Fair, but microsoft really shit the bed with C# and .NET. Making it tightly coupled to the windows and microsoft ecosystem was a mistake. Many corps can't make such a big commitment, nor do they want to spend the exorbitant amount of money. Because its all one big package... you're not just purchasing .NET, you're purchasing dozens of things. Things are changing now - but too little too late. .NET was never an option for those who use Linux backends, and due to the historical momentum it'll stay that way.

​@@Y-JAlmfao C# is way slower than Java since the CLR is significantly less optimized than the JVM

​​@@theshermantanker7043and people keep saying that java "catchs up" but it's more that they add things when they make sense. Java 22+ plans to integrate LINQ while C# tries now to copy java virtual threads. Which make as of today, java way more scalable then C# for concurrent app. I find it really impressive to be able to spawn 10M virtual threads that has solved the issue of context switching.

Those have been added 3 years ago

I feel that in java it's not so useful.

@@007arekuseful when you're templating without having to use library like mustache and with new string interpolation in java life gets slightly easier

@@iceinvein This was my point, not too many ppl do that. I have to add, that new java has string template that is better than simple string interpolation.

What extra tools?

It’s real similar to how Scala does it

It will be better, mate. It's almost a decade since java 8 release, there are lots of improvements in the jvm internals, new garbage collectors, higher pace of introducing quality of life changes

You Will enjoy it, writing code in java 8 and Java 21 (using the new features) it's almost as writing in 2 totally different languages. Writing in java 21 feels almost like coding in JS but without the totally idiotic and detach from reality implicit casting Javascript does with types in order to call itself "dynamic" and without the spaghetti code they get with the super nested functions and callbacks.

Do you know why Intellij does that by default?

Last I checked was... I can't even say the exact version - It was J2ME 😂

They went full Ubuntu and release a version every six months.

J# may be? 😂

@@ricmorris9758 Java ++

Is the unicode letter x available? That'd be a good new name...

Java topics don't generate drama at social networks, so probably no chance hooking up with modern kids even after rebranding

Java needs no rebranding as its the only mature language anyway (besides Fortran and C). Kids will find out soon enough ;)

exactly how we do it in C#

It’s weird that they used “instanceof” when they stressed the “is a” inheritance relationship so much in my Java classes

It’s also a really simple language. There isn’t much special syntax. 99% of the code you read does exactly what it looks like. I don’t have to think when looking at other peoples Java code. That’s what I really love about it (and of course the huge ecosystem). It’s really hard to f*ck up Java code. I consider this a feature.

@@benm1295yeah just create a factory to create a class that creates another class that has dependency injection so that we can get the other factory and then sum up two values :) does everything expected 🤦🏻‍♂️

@@benm1295 I agree but I have seen a fair chunk of unreadable Java code. If people really try .... But agreed, ideomatic Java is a pleasure to read.

That gradle and a lack of an LSP but it's a great language and think it could change Primes view of DSLs

What do you mean by Exceptions/Errors as values? Exceptions have their types so they can be used as values as everything else

@@shykial_ they are types yes but not really used as values. A functions signature in Kotlin doesn't tell you that it could go wrong, neither what could go wrong. In that sense, even Java is better then Kotlin. Another alternative are result types like you see in Rust which is referred to as "errors as values" afaik.

@@jamesgibson1893Yeah Kotlins DSL can be really strong if used in the right places. What's the Problem with Gradle though? (I originally came from maven, npm and pip (absolute nightmare) so my standards might be too low)

@@copypaste4097 you can always use @Throws annotation to indicate function may throw some exception, but if exception is one common outcome of a function which you would like to enforce handling straight away than why not use Result type or something else like Arrow's Either type? I personally am not a fan of Java's checked Exceptions and to me using Result/Either makes much more sense when you would like the caller to handle exception case directly

There already is REPL for Java which supports top-level statements.

Always keep your prejudices.

Modern Java is a gateway drug to Kotlin JetBrains created kotlin because they wanted a better fate for the android developers, Scala did not have such a mission

​@@MglunafhJava is already better than Kotlin in several features including pattern matching, virtual threads (no need for suspend functions), and string templates. More features in the work as well.

@@zhamed9587 Yeah, but Google is pushing desperately Java OUT of the Android ecosystem, at least when it comes to App development. All new features and libraries like Jetpack Compose, all exclusive for Kotlin. So, Android with Java is not any more a good option!

​@@Mglunafhthe opposite, with modern Java all the advantages that kotlin used to have are no more. Also with virtual threads and the Executor API Java has far better concurrence implementation than any other language but maybe Go

Scala sucks for 1 reason: Compare scala 2 vs scala 3 Whole new syntax. Iamge what happens if scala 4 comes out

I checked the docs, and yes, LInkedHashSet will rearrange the elements if you add them explicitly to the start/end. This is what the SequencedCollection interface requires (if you addFirst something, you will getFirst the same thing). It has its pros and cons, as it slightly changes the ordering in the middle of the set.

SequencedCollection ist just a new abstraction to treat collections with a defined order in a common list-like manner.

Hey, leave Java alone. They are trying. They have to start somewhere. Ironic that people call C# a Java ripoff considering its probably more the opposite since C# 3 ... what are we on now? 11?

C# doesn't have cheap threads, they just cancelled the .NET green thread project yesterday.

@@vytah They cancelled them for a good reason.

C# bros are like a sect nowadays. Jehovah's witnesses of developer community.

@@IvanRandomDude Microsoft fun boys

😂

"Java is prob gonna kill most other languages in about 3-5 years." now that is a take i wouldn't belive in a hundred years, Java is my main programming language but I would never belive that it would "kill all other programming languages". Companies are lazy/stingy, programmers are lazy, I am willing to bet that some big companies are still using windows server older than 10 years and won't update it until the end of time. The same will happen with all the systems no matter the language. They will create a layer with a modern system that protects it from the "new stuff", the amazing part is going to be that the programmers are going to only program in the new layer and with enough time that new layer will become legacy and a new new layer with new updated technology its going to be created repeating the cycle until we reach the spaghetti/lasagna of interconnected systems.

And exists only because Kotlin humilliated them. Otherwise these fat companies would have kept using Java 7 forever.

Java is stealing Kotlin's clothes, and then leaving Kotlin to die freezing in the cold. Seriously, looking a decade into the future, will there be any new projects using Kotlin then? Doubt it.

Use case are types which are known to be a finite set (think state diagram, expression types in a parser etc.) and you must be able to reason about them all.

But PHP has PHPs typing system.

String template is the new Java feature, not multi line that's been there for ages.

@@benderbg They're in preview, so no one will actually use it except for some experiments.

For now yes but its here to stay. Its a big improvement and way overdue @@vytah

Java has Apache Velocity. Much better than PHP to templating...

destructuring for switch is planned next. Guards are already in Java 21 (when clause), just omitted in the article discussed here.

What's better in C# compared to Kotlin? I would definitely choose Kotlin instead of C# when choosing between those two, interested in your opinion

@@shykial_ honestly, they’re both equally viable. I’m just a .NET guy, so I prefer C#.

>benefit of JVM LOL

@@Tvde1I mean, it does have some benefits in that it's runnable pretty much everywhere and there is a massive library ecosystem for it. Would I personally use it? Not really, but I can't deny it its good points

@@Tvde1 What is so funny about it?

That's normally done by a package private super class (in Java). Sealed interfaces are meant to represent state diagrams where one must be able to reason about existing states.

Yes. Virtual Threads but better.

Java is newer than Python

@@HrHaakon yes! '95 vs '91 for python.

Hope not in a code execution speed.

Kotlis is better.

@@erickmoya1401 kolon

@@erickmoya1401 way better haha

😭

No. Maybe if I wouldn’t have to work with it every day, I would agree, but till then… Just no, it’s not good.