Jin'talks - Why Do Autocannons Suck? 

You forgot one thing. Firing animation goes pewpew (pause) pewpew isntead of pewpewpewpewpewpewpew.

increase cycle speed(x1.5-2), reduce reload by 2-3 seconds, maybe increase magazine size, boom, most of auto cannons problems solved. this gives them higher DPS, allows for better combat reload/switch-load, lets blasters maintain their place as the super high alpha king and is thematically realistic (after all these are *AUTO* cannons) and means that for ranges between blaster and pulse, autocannons would be better due to better application. A blaster ship at "0" would still tear them apart because higher alpha and and DPS while Pulse would be able to sit outside their falloff and pick them off.

Having no cap is a really big bonus, particularly is smaller gang or solo PvP. They still need a bit of a dps boost though as other weapon systems are superior at the moment.

I think giving t2 ammo 50% tracking bonus would be a bad idea. We already have several types of t1 ammo with 25% tracking bonus, and unique hulls that fix that problem (stabber fleet issue vs stabber, hurricane fleet issue vs hurricane, dramiel vs republic fleet, etc). This would cause the factional ships to be instantly worse than their normal versions. Autocannons are jack-of-all-trades. Average in everything. They are great at that. You can still hit a kiter at longer falloff or track better than lasers upclose. You don't do it better than other weapons but if you can dictate range (and usually you can, minmtar ships are fast), then you can exploit other weapon's weaknesses. What I really don't like is that while autocannons eat no cap the ships you put them on have their cap reduced by a lot, and that nullifies the bonus. For example, the stabber is supposed to be a kiter. It is sometimes fit for passive tank (eats no cap), autocannons (eat no cap), and mwd + long point. So, with mwd on and long point you have 1.5min cap and this is where autocannons no-cap bonus sucks. To take advantage of the bonus, I think cruiser size ships and up should have a lot more base capacitor for other uses such as tank and speed.

Suggestion: Rework the falloff formula to fall off slower at the start (giving a bonus for the initial DPS), but then fall off slightly higher towards the end. Boost barrage back to 50% falloff, rework hail to the following: double the tracking, but lower damage output by 50% compared to base ammo, giving ACs an option to also apply to faster moving stuff (and be fast themselves). Finally: make it so that ACs feed directly from a gun belt, meaning you have all your bullets from your cargo available. This means if you stay with the same ammo: you have no reload time, and you keep blasting until your cargo hold runs out of ammo. Changing ammo would cause a 3 second reload time.

Projectiles should work more like flak and less like conventional impact weapons. Meaning that as long as the ammo gets close it applies some damage because it pops around the target and not hitting the target directly with laser accuracy. speed and target sig would play a much larger role in damage mitigation vs projectiles. My thought process, Bullets don't lose velocity in space and would apply the same damage point blank and at 5km. Just the amount of impacts would lesson. As it stands now, most cannons on ships suppress fighters or missiles use flak. Just change them to mimic rockets. Doing away with tracking speed and optimal or falloff. In my opinion. E.g. flak auto cannons using brawler ammo types would have a base range of 7.5km total. Applying the same damage to anything in range but having no falloff because of fuse timers or some other space treaty gimmick. The damage would stay the same as projectile ammo is on the lower end of output anyways. T2 ammo can work the same as rockets. Even the arty cannons can mimic missiles, having a higher hit chance but being more susceptible to target speed and sig but still useful at close range. Lasers and hybrid weapons are reliant on application for damage. The howitzers of old were more of a concussion weapon doing damage just landing close to a target. All projectile weapon platforms on aircraft incorporate an explosive element, and rely almost entirely on area of affect and less on direct impact. Just my thoughts

Loving your videos, ty. What editing suite do you use? Also, can you interview Insidious Sainthood? He’s a CSM candidate also.

So having: A) No Cap use B) 100% Selectable Damage type C) Good Tracking D) Still Good damage well outside blaster range Makes them bad?

I've experienced this a lot myself as a primarily Minnie pilot - the rifter, for example, is my favourite hull but it's just so much harder to win a 1v1 with it compared to other ships.

load hail never fail or something

Well, blasters have very short range, and pulse have bad tracking and are meant as medium range weapons. Pulse also use a lot of cap, especially scorch. This makes autos worse than blasters at very close range but better at range, and better than pulse at very close range while brawling because of tracking.

One problem with the calculation for the Atron is that you predict he won't repair his armor - if he repairs his armor you are shooting the weakest resistance which increases your damage throughput.

Cappless guns is helpful more for solo small gang fights and when using smaller ships . Midfight ammochanges are typically not worth it on smaller ships as long as your still hitting.

Autocannons should have the ammo range bonus apply to falloff instead optimal, otherwise ammo selection outside of damage type is rendered near useless by the fact that medium autocannons will never have an optimal beyond half of scram range regardless of long range ammo.

So for PvP I do think the jack of all trades is a good thing but requires a hard read on your target to take advantage of. Checking local and reading up on kill boards to see what they might tank. This makes the use of Intel very valuable i feel, as if you can treat the auto cannons as tools for hunters that stalk their prey. But I do agree that reloads are kinda long, even more so if your swapping ammo when you haven't fired yet. Personally I would make the base reload start at 5 seconds and scale as you empty the box up to 10 to 12 sec reloads. This would make the versatility part of an active play style to exploit your foes weakness. For T2 Ammo i wonder if the concept of mixed belts could be implemented. In theory you could mix either damage type or range/tracking. With a mixed belt you would flip between ammos each burst. I'm a novice to EVE so i don't know how this would work in the long run but it would make for an interesting concept/gimmick. Lastly from my limited experience i find projectile ammo to excel in PvE where you tend to know what your fighting resist wise due to faction resists. Granted like I said im a novice and didnt get far in my missioning so another platform might be better.

Very well put, Ive said multiple times that t2 autocannon ammo is absolutely trash compared to the other platform's t2 ammunition choices. Even most of the standard ammo types just give up too much damage/tracking in order to be worth using. I also understand that when AC ships are strong they are VERY strong though, so CCP may be a bit scared to touch them too much.

[Tracking Computer] and [Tracking Enhancer] gain twice as much falloff then optimal. At the same time [Locus] rigs give the same optimal as [Ambit Extension] rigs get falloff. Maybe give Ambit rigs a buff would make the falloff Trait of autos better for application and kiting at mid ranges and maybe make falloff rigs useful. Almost every pulse laser scorch platform rig for max [Locus] But you never see a Vagabond, Stabber or Hurricane rig for Ambits since its better to just get a [Burst Areator] and then go for [Tracking Enhancer] if there are even low slots over for that after Gyros, Nanos and DC. There might be some other platfroms that would benefit from a [Ambit Extension] buff. Artys and rails still benefit more from [Locus] in most cases and I would be fine with the likes of "Kiting Deimos shooting Null with [Ambit Extension] just like they did back when [Tracking Enhancer] still was good. The [Tracking Enhancer] nerf back in the day probebly is something that hit autos the hardest and tweaking that back with [Ambit Extension] would be a very welcome change. :)

Would be great if it were possible to initiate a reload and introduce the reload cooldown without having to stop firing. For example : you engage with Fusion and decide Titanium Sabot is more appropriate for the engagement profile you queue a 10s reload to Titanium Sabot, and fire with Fusion until the 10s elapses at this point you swap on the fly to Titanium Sabot rounds perhaps with a short pause as the Ammo feed swaps over This would encourage selection of the ammo appropriate to the situation, while still incurring a penalty during the reload cycle where you are firing the sub-optimal ammo type. It also preserves the flavor of autocannons long reload, so that it maintains a distinctive flavor apart from other reload mechanics. No idea how or if they could support this, but given the reload times of other wpn systems in comparison (hybrids are very quick, and crystals are as fast as you can click through the UI) I makes very little sense to have such a dramatic reload time when one of the strengths of the weapon system is supposed to be adjustable damage type.

I stopped playing a bit after Incursions and mostly follow your channel to keep up with the news. In rebalancing did they change the speed of Matar vessels? Because the doctrine used to be that since you were faster than other ships in your class you could dictate traversal and range. This more than the stat dps was why people complained Matar were OP back then.

Beware of anything with the word 'auto' in it..

Loki vs proteus is always an even fight

I think an issue with short range weapon balance in general is that tackle has fixed ranges between different sizes of ships, while weapon ranges change dramatically. That just doesn't play out well for certain weapons or weapon + ship combinations. Personally, I don't think medium autocannons are particularly weak (220s are the sweet spot though, not 425s). They can scram kite blaster boats and can get under the guns of pulses. However, some other weapons really suffer. Small and large autocannons and pulses are kind of tough. Small autocannons and pulses have a range advantage over blasters, but ranges are already so short, and frigate fights are so fast, it's hardly meaningful. Half the time, even a scram-kiter, with something like an 8km advantage over a blaster boat, isn't enough, much less the advantages you'd get from a pulse or autocannon frigate. Large autocannons and pulses suffer from the fact that unless you go to a max tracking fit, you mostly just can't hit small stuff. Outside of tackle range, they're too fast to hit, and inside, they're close enough to get enough transversal without an MWD.

5 second reload buff. That and a dual damage load type. EM/ kinetic hail, thermal/explosive barrage, with say midrange buff for both. Minmatar should be able to use the weapons most relevant to their profile, anyway. They're the Mad Max faction of the stars. give them the bonuses to feel that way!

AC's rock if you're dogfighting. I mean sure they're never gonna be great at range, but blasters aren't either. A good set of AC's (I have 425's on my min's burst) and a proper shield tank and you can get right up behind your target and tear em apart WELL under their effective tracking for hybrids, though rockets / missiles will likely still give you trouble.

I dont play anymore and i haven played alot. but i liked this game an minmatar. maybe the abilit to dual feed and switch fast and keeping the reload time as it is for lore reasons. Aka changing belts. So you could decide on two types. two long range with diffrent dmg types or one short range one long.

so, hail high dmg low tracking; barrage low dmg high tracking; for like a pp/em/fus opt+falloff profile?

just double the RoF. I mean, they are called Auto cannons. Spit all the ammo all of the places.

Im so sorry, i wrote far too much in response. grab a coffee if u intend on reading this. I do believe you underestimate the ammo choice strength. ESPECIALLY SOLO. you can pick the right ammo before the fight. and unlike RLML which could also do this, you can do it reasonably quickly. so you now have a wide spectrum of ammo to pick range and damage type, its a damn good strength, and i feel you've underestimated this by comparing it MID-fight. the versatility makes them stronk, with a large engagement profile. Also the cap usage while firing is a great thing, you can keep firing at that ashimmu thats neuting you in a hurricane, is it always useful or amazing? no. but like everything else about auto's. its the Versatility that makes them good. One fit ive used to make use of this is my dual web plated hurricane. with a nos. nearly totally immune to being neuted. it'll shoot you effectively until it explodes. Changing the t2 ammo to a "mid range tracking ammo" Im assuming this'd be something like depleted uranium/titanium but with more damage? cause we do have that as an option. The heat bonus is an interesting idea, as it wont fuck the hull. it doesnt buff arty. which obviously doesnt need any buffing reload buff wont do too much, it may allow some mid-fight ammo changes, but a good pilot knows what ammo he'll need from what he see's on dscan/scouts. With that mention about minmatarr hulls giving good bonus's making arties stronk. im sorry i disagree there. arties are the stupid strong part. not the hull we've put arties on. ABBADONS, that should of been a large enough observation to see its not just the minmatar hulls making them good, its the weapon system that fits the meta perfectly. total alpha. Minmatar hulls do match auto's pretty well themselves however. good speed, utility highs to neut out the target. *or a nos if ur scared of neuts* Auto's can outrange blasters. can fire the rainbow at pulses, can pick its ammo faster than RLML cancer, has better "application" than HAM's and heavies (this one would be a page comment on its own) or. explained another way. (you can ignore this part, im just belabouring a point) It's the jack of all trades, master of none, it about the same dps as pulse but without the reload speed, it doesnt have the dps of blasters but has over 2x more range at times, it doesnt have the raw damage that rlml has but can reload it faster to changing situations, it doesnt have the range of arty/rail/beam, but can sit in the midway between the long and short range weapons, and can get under their guns. They are a versatile system, i can easily agree t2 ammo is mostly total garbage in 99% of situations, but the rest of the weapon system *especially the mediums that everyone has called shit* is far stronger than people give it credit for, and yes, match that to the hulls to fly it, *cynabal, hurricane, stabber and stabber fleet, scythe fleet, and so on* and it becomes a perfectly viable weapon system with strengths and weaknesses, like the rest of the weapons in game.

My only gripe with your assessment is lasers chug cap, even rails take a good chunk. I think this plays a bigger role then you lead on in this video. Lasers are my favorite due to their range and dps protection but trying to use a hull without a bonus to their cap use is beyond hard. Like a harb is great but trying to fit tachs to a battleship kills any pg or cap you have. The abbadon for instance. Now I understand most subs have this bonus but the need for it is clear from my perspective.

or give them the option on what to load at the next reload

Autocanons would seem better if a lot of people were using neuts. But they aren't. Also triglavians can strap on half a mining laser and get better dps than the rest of the guns.

The graph that shows overall damage done by weapon system is misleading. Top dog is 720mm Artillery, that'd be Munnins. Rails likewise are up there from Feroxes/Eagles. The stuff that's near the bottom, pulse lasers, blasters and ACs are all solo/small gang and thus are going to show as underused simply due to the type and scale of engagements they'd be involved in. Rapid Light missiles of course feature highly in all scenarios because they are idiotproof. Push the button and fly, whatever happens the rapid lights will shred small to medium targets.

Small Brain: CCPls make autocannons stronger. Big Brain: CCPls allow autocannons to reload faster somehow. 🧠Cosmic brain🧠: Have all ammo types loaded at the same time spread across your guns so you lose less DPS swapping.

AC should be inherently weaker in terms of dps due to the lack of need for cap. Granted, I haven't played in any major way since 2012, so my knowledge on the current balance is lacking.

This is why I don't have any single minmatar account lmao Did CCP buff autocannons somehow? Idk anything about current situations

I decided I'd give the video a shot despite disagreeing with the title. I'd say I still disagree that autocannons themselves are bad. But agree that T2 ammo is very underwhelming in comparison to other weapon types. I've used Minmatar ships for 8 years and can say in application, the turrets fair well. The T2 ammo is very situational vs other turret T2 ammo. Hail has garbage range and a painful tracking penalty. Good only for extreme close range brawling with heavy webbing. Barrage is utterly useless on a ship without a falloff bonus but with that bonus you can kite pretty effectively. At all other instances, faction ammo will perform similarly or better.

Or you could go with the way CCP already chose for autocannons but make it an actually meaningful amount instead of the obsolete 7.5% buff they gave to autocannons' falloff. I'd say, 25% increase to falloff, at the very least. Suddenly Autocannons are fixed and the Stabber and its variants are much more effective at kiting.

wow what fitting program is that?

to answer the question the title poses is pretty simple, you can shoot with 0 cap, should there not be a trade off??

Small autos are good large autos are good but medium autos are trash tier weapons unless used on a ship with severely well bonused ships.

If you would be correct, autocannons wont be used on ships from another factions than minmatar as they are. And since they don´t use capacitor and are easy to fit + they could choice damage type, they are best choice for versatility. Yes they are kinda weaker when comparing with another gun system, but you are comparing what other gun systems are good at. You can´t simply have one best weapon system with no drawbacks... ( BTW not sure what you ware complaining about at 10:40 graph of pulse lasers vs 425mm autocannons, since minmatar ships are faster, so they are usually dictating range, misleading at best )

Amarrin' bruh?

label your graphs

Conclusion: Autocannon is shit. Get either blaster or pulse laser

appreciate your stuff, graph porn needs animations, long talk with nothing but a blank background ...my attention span is short sorry

I don't know how long have you been playing EvE, but if you say Autocannons are crapy... I recon you don't know too much EvE, do you?

autocannons are shit because their base damage is too low because of the buffs to long range small and medium guns (and drones and rapids) over the years: compare their base damage to long range weapons and you will find that it is often lower. you cannot have beam lasers doing more damage than autocannons, there is no way it makes sense. this has to be addressed before anything else - no falloff or ammo tweaks or heat bonuses can reconcile this problem. this is also a problem for pulse lasers, which at the moment with multifrequency get outdamaged by beam lasers at twice their range. large weapons were spared this nonsense, so if you go check the numbers you'll find that a heavy beam laser currently outdamages a dual heavy beam laser. #justccpthings

Auto cannons are so overpowered it's not even funny too many times I have been destroyed by a stabber or vagabond that will orbit you at 15 to 20 and then use barrage ammo to destroy your ship the only ones that have a chance to destroy them or caldari or amarr if they have enough range and even then Amar could have a difficult time cuz the stabber or Vagabond will have a tracking disruptor killing your tracking I've lost track of the number of thoraxes I've lost to this strategy and it's ridiculous the ship is moving too fast cuz they typically go 2 kilometers and 3 km if it's a vagabond so they're outside your Fallout with blasters Amar has a chance but even then that he can still get screwed missiles can do some damage but there's Speed will neglect most of the damage I hate auto cannons

pls nerf loki

You have a good argument with the ammo type but one thing you forgot is that if you doing solo pvp and go into a fight where you a rifter vs a breacher 1v1 with emp loaded, you are in fact a moron. A breacher is ether 2 things. Kite fit or scram kite. Both of those are outside emp ammo range. A pilot flying Minmitar is constantly changing ammo dependant on the target. Caldari load for their EM hole, Armour load in for the Explosive hole. Is it a kiter or a brawler? Change Amo accordingly. I think Minmitar is in a way EVE Hard mode and if flown well can be deadly. You just have to be good at target selection and ammo type selection for the situation.

heat idea is horrible

Another kid who wants lasers nerfed again. and MORE for autocannons. isnt it enough that the damage of ac's went down to basically 1 damage type instead of 3? isnt enough that scorch has been nerfed 3 times because cryhards are bad. isnt enough that minmatar have some of the gayest shit in the game right now? it feels like minmatar online again. No my friend no. Every weapon system has had a buff in the last 9 years its time for lasers to finally get one. and not no stupid laser cap bonus.