Jonathan Pageau Q&A with Royal Northern College of Music 

0:42 Religion as symbolic patterns 4:58 Does it matter that the events in the Bible really happened? 10:12 Is music a metaphor for "living in harmony" with each other? 12:47 Symbolic patterns are like fractals 18:38 Contemporary Art 25:04 Advice for composing liturgical music 27:27 Relativism disregards human nature 37:03 Samuel Andreyev: There has been no innovation in the last 50 years of contemporary music 42:01 Beauty is hard-wired into our biology 44:40 Is Modernism inevitable? 53:19 Was music created or discovered? 1:00:09 Is Christian art heretical? 1:05:15 Is there something transcendent underneath symbolism? 1:07:55 What are your thoughts on psychedelics? 1:11:48 Making art that is compatible with symbolic patterns 1:16:25 Dangers of New Age religious thinking & the necessity of dogma 1:27:12 Does orthopraxy (right action) require orthodoxy (right belief)? 1:28:46 Thoughts on "spirituality without religion"? 1:33:18 The dangers of dogma 1:49:24 Love is the Opposite of Addiction; Humility is the Opposite of Pride

This was one of Jonathan's best Q&As. I hope he engages in talks and dialogue with college students more often. Thanks for sharing it with the world!

“Mirror of the good in the other person”. That’s some strong humility. It is actually how we create our selves.

Jonathan in on 🔥 lately. He’s reached new heights.

Brilliant guest. Hope he's back soon.

That waa a really great point about using well worn methods in a higher use.

Fr. Silouan Justiniano would be an amazing guest/interviewee. This was lovely, thank you!

Lovely talk. I think it articulated a vision for what art truly is, a baptism of matter, spiritualizing dead things so they can be alive. It's in everything we do, we always have the chance to sing to the glory of the Most High. And for musicians, it means something like making and keeping your promises that lead to the resurrection (I'm thinking of Mahler's Symphony N2). You can play, you can fight, but ultimately it is about attending to love, building it up, giving it all, holding your life out as a true prayer. You make the dead bones sing and come alive when you do it in true love. Don't get distracted! Don't fall! Love! Show the world what love is!

Good talk! Nice to see so many people are engaging in these subjects. Jonathan has such a clear and poetic way of speaking, it’s like magic. Great questions too! About the humility part: the trick is to know you’re basically worthless and be happy to have a challenge ahead to improve yourself. The closer you get to God, the more the stains on your soul will be visible to yourself anyway so better get used to it and struggle to purify yourself. Saint Silouan said to keep one foot in hell and never despair. It takes some getting used to but it’s very helpful tempering ones ego and the passions. There’s no way around it, before long you’ll become old and sick and life smacks you in the face. You’ll be humbled anyway...

I like how more and more people appear in the chairs as the talk goes on. Haha, was expected you all to be packed in like sardines by the end.

Thanks for the upload!

Yeah, Dante! Longing and desire draw one to the stars, creating the perceptual organization to the good, beautiful and true.

modernism is the salt of the stewy primal froth of ideological formation in space. amazing conversation! so glad open discussion is so vibrant in these chaotic times

I have been waiting so long for THIS interview. Thank you guys for making it happen, and huge props to Jonathan for offering his time and energy

Wow. It is so interesting. Those young people have such intelligent questions! Thank you for sharing it with us ❤‍🔥

This is INCREDIBLE

The Lion King 👑 101 There's a time for everyone, If they only learn That the Twisting kaleidoscope, Moves us all in turn. There's a rhyme and reason To The wild outdoors When the heart of this Star-crossed Voyager Beats in time with yours.

Bach was a liturgical composer almost exclusively. Opera was not born in the modern clinical fashion Even Wagner was designed to be total art, Total entering into.

1:53:54 here was a moment for Clapping Music by Steve Reich

Great interview. I only disagree with the shyness being due to pride. While I think it is an over attentiveness to the self, it is a consequence of fear due to a sense of inferiority to others.

Religious divisions 2500 years before Chirst, the GILGARMESH EPIC. CULTURES TRAVELING. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Sineca, etc. I am not against religions or no faith. Joseph Campbell, his books also his seried with PBS with Bill Moyers, "The Power of Myths". HE was a Professor at Standford University in the 80's. Music, all the great composers in Classical, jazz, blues, gospel, rock n roll, now Rapp. Overlays of sounds. Nature (fractal) mathematics, physics, science. Krishnamurti & Alan Watts great sources of consciousness. Human nature 101. Art, great painters, sculptures, mathematics also came into play. Writers also, languages. KINGS, QUEENS and art. Pollack was one of my favorites of modern art, learn his history. Caruso, Maria Calles, Pavarotti. Bach, Beethoven', Mozart, Rachmanioff, Debussy. TCHAIKOVSKY, VIVALDI etc. Many less known ones. Jazz so many great ones . Composers of films, Ennio Morricone, my favorite, John Barry the Beethoven of our time, Mancini, John Williams , Andre Previn loved Mozart, he could play jazz. All music connections throughout the years. Architecture in modern times Frank Loyd Wright with Modern architecture, Ray Cape, 1965, scientific makes modern houses stand. Human race lived in nature, why not a modern home? DION Neutra, O'Hara House Life, evolutionary biology. Flavin House, Trailor House this is California now. Rudolf Schindler, sacs apartment space, KINGS Road house. Pacific N.W. Portland, Oregon Watzek - House 1934 chicken shake. Its like a chicken shake. It's like a nothing House, modern space & old space. Although I love old architecture also. These high rises buildings like in NYC, Dubai, Qatar, not for me. Thank you for this discussion with all of you today. As patterns unfold, the subconscious unfolds. I love all writers, most definitely Tolstoy, Fedor Dostoevskey, James Joyce, Proust, and keep going. Does one like "1984"by Orwell or Aldoux Huxley's, " Brave New World" Although I loved both, I go with Huxley. Who does one like better, Shakespeare or or Paradise Lost by Milton ? All the great writers of literature, poetry. READ 📚. Yates, Lord Byron, Shelly, Mary Shelly. Move on up to the Bronte Sisters, who would one choose the Bronte Sisters or "Love Story" lol. Jane Austin. Dickens, Samuel Clemens, Robert Frost, Emily Dickens, E.E. Cummings, Hemingway, Scott Fitzgerald, . THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, RUMI, Omar Khyam so many. PLEASE READ McCarthy's "Blood Meridian " all of his books. There are too many even today and I haven't even got to films or movie scripts. ART IS GOD. THANK YOU. WHAT IS INTELLIGENCE? BOOK LEARNING IS IMPORTANT. Intelligence is the UNKOWN. BACH, IT ALWAYS COMES TO BACH.

You guys should try to get in contact with Samuel Andreyev. He's a contemporary composer that often talks about the meaning aspect of music. I highly suggest his talk at the Royal Academy of Music! Also, Jonathan, I listen to Webern and lots of jazz and I don't study art. :( Frank Zappa got me into him.

The heart of Christianity is not discipline or self-awareness or self-flagellation, but the Cross. It’s what He’s done, not how far we fall short. And the main way we interface with the Cross is reliance, not understanding or awareness. Those are auxiliary to the main will to rely. Communing with God-after the Cross handles the “me me me” stuff-fills us with love, an outwardness that is less mindful of self. Despite these patterns, we don’t get anything perfect. That’s not the point. The point is to accept the pattern of reliance.

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26:38 that guy blew his nose really hard

... Maybe Beethoven? 🤨 Okay Jonathon.

4:58 Does it matter that the events in the Bible really happened? What a confusing response. Of course it matters whether the events really happened. That is its claim about itself. The Bible is not meant to be read ONLY as literature. Yes, it is literature. (And of different genres, since it's not just one book, but a collection of 66 books.) Yes, there's a lot to be found on that level. But the primary purpose of the Bible is as a record of events that happened in the real world and the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's a chronicle of the workings of God in history to provide atonement for sin so that people may avoid the wrath of God and eternal punishment/justice for their sins that awaits them if they do not repent.

18:04 "Modern art" is a product of the artisan's submission to inclusivity as the highest value. It becomes tyrannical and self destructive. Tyrannical in the sense that you are considered uneducated/low class/ignorant/intolerant/Tasteless if you don't agree that a banana taped to the wall should be valued, in the tens of thousands of dollars. Self destructive in the sense that a bunch of scribble is valued in the tens of thousands; or even like the banksy piece that was shredded. Inclusivity, diversity, as the highest value can destroy your basketball team and the game because you have to include someone who was to swim and be part of the game. If you exclude, you're considered intolerant and we all know where intolerance leads (Nazi). Think about it.

This guys know it all attitude is sad. Protecting religion is no longer ok