Joseph Smith and the FAILURE of the Kirtland Safety Society! Ep. 81

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The Kirtland Safety Society was a financial institution meant to help solve some of the financial problems the Saints faced in Kirtland, Ohio. It was a great idea. The only problem was that it totally flopped. People lost a lot of money, and many lost confidence in Joseph’s prophetic calling. In this episode, Dave talks about why things went south with the Safety Society, and what it means about Joseph Smith’s claims to be a prophet of God.
Transcript of this episode and possibly additional notes on our website: [COIMNG SOON!]
Most in-depth research I’ve seen on this subject: bit.ly/2JbsUKG
Timeline of KSS events: bit.ly/3biLQmK
Another good summary of this topic (BYU): bit.ly/2UBmARV
Latter-day Saint Q & A video on this subject: bit.ly/2JdV4oh
Was the Kirtland Safety Society Antibanking Company legal?: bit.ly/2UgCwtL
Dispelling myths about the Safety Society & Joseph Smith: bit.ly/2UMnRWz
The Church’s “gospel topics” essay on this subject: bit.ly/33Kpw2P
The Kirtland Safety Society and the Fraud of Grandison Newell: A Legal Examination: bit.ly/3akkr3Q
An awesome 28-minute video from the Church on this subject: bit.ly/2vRh8SI
Warren Parrish embezzlement suspicion sources: bit.ly/39nbUvn
Addressing additional questions about the KSS: bit.ly/39m4rwG
Notes:
-After the KSS was unable to obtain a charter, the Saints bought controlling stock in a Michigan bank that was chartered, and hoped to make KSS somewhat of a branch of that other bank. Unfortunately, the Panic of 1837 temporarily shut down that other bank. More info: bit.ly/2JbsUKG
-While never convicted, it is highly likely that a man named Warren Parrish was embezzling funds from the KSS. “He had the handling of large sums of money, and it was soon discovered, that after the money was counted and laid away, and come to be used and counted again, that there was always a part of it missing; this being the case, repeatedly, and those who owned it, knowing that there was no other person but Parrish who had access to it, suspicion of necessity fixed itself on him” (Comprehensive History of the Church, 1:408) More sources/info here: bit.ly/39nbUvn
-A year after apostatizing, Warren Parrish (hostile to Joseph) claimed that Joseph, “declared that the audible voice of God instructed him to establish a Banking-Anti-Banking Institution…”
Wilford Woodruff recorded a slightly different story in his journal on the day in 1837 it actually happened. He said that Joseph “had received that morning the Word of the Lord upon the Subject of the Kirtland Safety Society. He was alone in a room by himself & he had not ownly the voice of the Spirit upon the Subject but even an audable voice. He did not tell us at that time what the LORD said upon the subject but remarked that if we would give heed to the Commandments the Lord had given this morning all would be well.”
In other words, according to Woodruff, God had apparently given Joseph some instructions, and the success of the bank would depend on whether or not those instructions were followed. There’s pretty good evidence to suggest that those instructions were not followed very well.
-Joseph Smith invested more money in the KSS than 85% of other investors. As the prospects of the bank looked bleak, he responded by investing more of his own money, hoping to help keep it afloat. The KSS was not a scheme to help Joseph “get rich quick.”
-In February 1837, members tried to depose Joseph Smith as their leader. According to Wilford Woodruff, “He stood in the midst of the congregation of the Saints, where I beheld President Joseph Smith Junior, arise in the stand and for several hours address the Saints, in the power of God. He had been absent from Kirtland on business, though not half as long as Moses was on the Mount, and many were against him, as the Israelites were against Moses. But when he arose in the power of God in their midst, as Moses did anciently, they were put to silence, for the complainers saw he stood in the power of the Prophet.”
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Опубликовано:

22 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 68

@Michael-jo9jz 4 года назад

From Ohio, can confirm our laws are trash.

@terrygampper5789 3 года назад

During the Kirtland period, the Church was not only coping with an economic crisis, the prophet Joseph had to contend with apostates. There were two significant splinter groups that formed, the first, named, the Church of Christ (Parrishites) and the second, Church of Christ (Brewsterites). The first group was very powerful but didn't last long. The second group involved a young man named James Colin Brewster. Brewster was first noticed by the Church when he was just 10-years old. He was disfellowshipped then for being in communication with the Angel Moroni and wrote a book about it. Later, at age twelve, he wrote a commentary on the Book of Second Esdras (from the Apocrypha). A few years later, he formed a church based on his writings.

@PapaKryptoss 4 года назад

Those notes can be purchased on collector websites for a very huge amount of money. 12k for one note in some sites.

@cassiehunt2686 4 года назад

I’m from Painesville. Too bad this is one of the only historically important events Painesville has been involved with.

@trentc7329 4 года назад

The image at 1:05 was stolen from the Morman Informant channel who commissioned and paid for it.

@grandpaje4734 4 года назад

Regardless, I was converted in Indonesia, and all other nations who are blessed to become members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we are thankful greatly for the faithfulness and sacrifices of Mormon pioneers. They were the living witnesses of the restoration.

@Kman. 4 года назад

I'm just reading thru the comments...I know nothing of the failed bank, but I *DO* know there was no "restoration" of the Lord's church that LDS speak of.

@chrissessions6108 4 года назад

@@Kman. oh okay then. Thanks for that.

@Kman. 4 года назад

@@chrissessions6108 Clearly you would take issue with that, right? Do share just when the church "apostatized" (which means to renounce)? Was it a specific time...days before JS had his vision...over an extended period, say weeks, months or even years? If it happened, @ least explain either of these two verses/points... · *MATTHEW **13:30* "Let both (tares & wheat) grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest"" · How in *JUDE 3* it speaks of the faith that was "ONCE" delivered, yet it had to be "re-delivered" to JS. This "ONCE" delivery is not "once" as in "once in the line of many", but rather "ONCE" conclusively…"ONE" time numerically. Like the old adage goes, _"If it ain't broke, don't fix it"_ but JS took it upon himself to meddle with what God established…the unmovable, never ending church that He founded.

@heatherluna5075 4 года назад

@@Kman. You only see in others what you see in yourself.⭐⭐⭐⭐

@Kman. 4 года назад

@@heatherluna5075 Forgive me, but do share how that even comes close to fitting what I said...please? I mean, I put up two *BIBLE* verses, and you reply with that?

@ShilohBoca 4 года назад

I know we don't do this at church but the Spirit some times it speaks to us to let us know why certain trials happened to our pioneer members. Would love if there was a way to talk and share ideas on how certain challenges strengthen the church, testimonies and the Gospel.

@BlueJayBirdSaint 4 года назад

I think that the Church, like any body, must fail from time to time while growing. Remember that it is preferable to suffer afflictions from time to time, for the sake of wisdom. Us, the Body of Christ, which is the Church, follow the same rules and principles. Knowing this is not just about revelation, but also about wisdom.

@becca4858 4 года назад

Hello, I'm an investigator for your church and I have a question (about religion) that I'd like to ask you if you don't mind... is there somewhere that I can pm you for this? I would ask the missionaries in my area (or my bf, who is a member), but some things are just a little bit easier to ask anonymously haha - thank you in advance!!! :)

@davidsnell2605 4 года назад

We'd love to chat with you. Feel free to send us a message via the Saints Unscripted Instagram account or on our Facebook page/FB community page.

@markserrano5887 4 года назад

The Lord, through President Nelson, has counseled us to refrain from reffering the church as LDS or Mormon. I am wondering why Saints unscripted fail to do this for their video titles.

@chaseallen7499 4 года назад

People know us better as mormons. It was origionally called 3 mormons but was changed to saints unscripted.

@jeremims9044 Месяц назад

Grandison Newell did a lot more than just this particular lawsuit. There is an excellent article about this in BYU studies by Jeffrey N Walker JD from 2015 that details the legalities involved in this whole debacle as well as Grandison Newell's fraud involved more than 15 years after Joseph Smith's murder. To summarize, Newell used a straw man (Rounds vs Smith) to bring his own grievances to J. Smith. After J. Smith and Rigdon "lost" (as you have pointed out, the legalities on this were dubious at best), Rounds collected but then handed the money over to Newell. According to applicable law, Newell was supposed to hand over half the proceeds to the state of Ohio, but he did not, thus defrauding the state of Ohio. In the 1860's Newell decided to revive this lawsuit, acting as if he had not been paid for his losses in Kirtland. Through a friend in the legislature, he pushed through a motion that allowed him to pursue this and he then used his grandson in law to act as in the role of being the representative of the J Smith estate (no evidence exits that shows Emma or any of J. Smith's children were informed). After a legal process of reviving this suit, and using the lawyer that had previously defended J. Smith (conflict of interest?), his lawyer purchased the Temple Lot in Kirtland at a low cost and then sold it for pennies. Essentially Newell was fraudulent a second time and was able to double dip....coincidentally, Newell also funded D. Philastus Hurlburt to go to Palmyra and collect affidavits on Smith and family that were later used in the anti mormon book Mormonism Unvailed as well as "evidence" for the Spaulding Manuscript, which affidavits have proven problematic for critics as far as the Spaulding theory goes. As I know some critic may try to point out and I will pre-empt them there was also a charge brought against J Smith by Newell of attempted murder by Smith, which ended up being dismissed. Newell had a major personal vendetta against J. Smith, and it goes much deeper than this YT video shows. I mean, you've already been dubiously paid for your "losses" and even 15-20 years later you go after a dead man and his family again. There's a special place for this guy.

@Valeriamtzp 2 года назад

Posing this as just a matter of was it or not illegal Is a major distraction. Is no one else bothered that a church wanted power in the economy of the country? What if they succeeded?

@tpbarron 4 года назад

Good job David

@georgemataele9271 2 года назад

Love this content! I appreciate this!!!

@seans5289 4 года назад

I can’t help but notice the sleight of hand going on during the “was it illegal” bit, but I’m glad you tackled this topic. It’s a sticky one.

@chrissessions6108 4 года назад

Sleight of hand? He said that the court ruled that it was illegal. He's not attempting to hide anything. On the other hand, people trying to make the church look bad would definitely be trying to hide the context for why there was reasonable precedent for them to have an unofficial bank.

@seans5289 4 года назад

chrisberockin: So, the church broke the law?

@christopherrandallnicholson 4 года назад

Why are you asking such a stupid question if you already watched the video?

@chrissessions6108 4 года назад

Yep. Are you happy now, Zeezrom?

@seans5289 4 года назад

chrisberockin: You seem upset. That was a pretty simple answer, though. Why does it need to be couched in apologetics? I would think we could admit our mistakes and learn from them.

@tortletrainwrek9335 Год назад

Nice video. Love learning about church history!

@christian1604 6 месяцев назад

God is omniscient, God does not need to demand conditions from people for something to happen. God knows what will happen regardless of men's failures. That's why God knows how to predict the future. If the prophet demands conditions from people for something to happen, this man is not a prophet but a manipulator.

@RyanMercer 6 месяцев назад

People have free agency though.

@BlueJayBirdSaint 4 года назад

Good video. Men always fails, and prophets are not different. But the Lord's work never fails! Let us be faithful then.

@rainwalker95 4 года назад

But how do we distinguish the words of a man, who hold the priesthood keys of a prophet, from prophetic council?

@narleymarley666 4 года назад

foreign holiday especially when the prophet can’t even tell the difference

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

@@rainwalker95 Well a good start is to study the scriptures and General Conference talks.

@rainwalker95 3 года назад

I'm curious because the moment a Mormon prophet does, the argument of "they were speaking as men" kinda takes effect. Because I do think the emphasis of calling the Mormon church... (Deep breath)... The church of jesus christ of latter-day saints is a opinion from russell.

@brettmajeske3525 3 года назад

@@rainwalker95 Oh it is absolutely Pres Russel's opinion. Which does not detract from it being important. One of his first General Conference talks as a new Apostle was about the importance of using the full name of the Church. In the eighties he did not have the unanimity of the Presiding Quorums to change actual policy. Forty years later, he does. Just because it is his personal opinion, does not mean that it is not also the Lord's will. It took 40 years for Israel to become ready to inherit the promise land. The Lord knows the nature and personality of those He has called as Prophets. It seems in retrospect, that many have different missions. Gordon B Hinkley expanded the presence of the Church on the world stage. Russel is refocusing gospel study in the home. Continuing revelation allows for different emphasis at different times. Remember that each of the Presiding Quorums must come to unanimous decisions. That is how we distinguish Revelation from personal opinion. Every Apostle receives confirmation and supports the Prophet for any important change.

@heatherluna5075 4 года назад

💟💟💟💟💟

@perpetualchangeband 3 года назад

More proof that Old Joe was full of...

@sunsolstar 2 года назад

bias

@michiganabigail 4 года назад

Second! I actually prefer being second!

@Bellg 4 года назад

Could it be? first?

@MrArtist7777 2 года назад

Great overview. In hindsight, Joseph Smith should have stayed COMPLETELY away from the safety society and let others, non-leaders of the church, start and operate the company so if and when it failed, it would have nothing to do with the church. Of course, if we could change hindsight, plural marriage should have been extremely limited with sealings and marriages defined better as Joseph was merely sealed to many women but only temple married and sealed to a few. Should have been the same with Brigham Young and the others. And Brigham and the church should have stuck with welcoming ALL worthy men the priesthood. Imagine how many controversies and problems we could have avoided had we just done these things?