A dialogue sponsored by Christ Presbyterian Church of Magna, UT (www.gospelutah.org), featuring current LDS Institute instructor, Alma Allred, former LDS Institute instructor, Grant Palmer, and Pastor Jason Wallace.
Reading Grant Palmer's book "An Insider's View of Mormon Origins" is giving me an overwhelming amount of information about the LDS church history. To me, he has credibility and more importantly, his intend is not to diminish the reader's faith in Christ. I am sure that Alma Allred knows that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not true. Sad to know that we, the members, put our faith in untruthful history. That hurts a lot! R.I.P Mr. Palmer! Your valuable contribution and hard-work in bringing the truth to many of us will always be greatly appreciated. Thank you!
The Mormon church has been teaching translation directly from the plates for as long as they have been in existence. To say that rank and file members "should have known" that Joseph Smith used a stone is cruel, to say the least. Until the advent of the internet, most members had no access to any information other than what was doled out by the church. Keep in mind, asking questions was categorically forbidden. I have a strong sense that "lying for the Lord" continues.
I think I know what hell is going to be like, being forced to listen to Alma Allred parse words and nit pick the meaningless while ignoring outright deception, lies and blasphemy. Talk about twisting words and meanings to force a goal, Alma is your man. The man still proclaims his innocence but couldn't explain why he had a severed head in bag. Talk about trying to nail jello to a sand storm, man oh man. This was painful. Poor Grant had to deal with this salamander. Depends on what the meaning of "is" is right Alma?
Haha, he seems like a nice guy, you have to admit! There's something about his absurd determination that is admirable. He would make a great christian!
The problem is as Latter Day Saints we were told a completely false story, then told to "Give brother Joseph a break", but then told our Latter Day Prophets speak for God. So someone who speaks for God and we sing "Follow the Prophet" but then that they are only human, then we are giving all of our trust, hope and "lives if necessary' to follow a falable man. Ruins lives..
I read the book, "No Man Knows My History" by Faun Brodie. It is worth reading for any Mormon, or for anyone thinking of following that religion! Faun was a niece of the President of The Salt Lake Temple at the time of the writing! It has lots of pictures, and is a documentary. She got her information from the archives of the Mormon temple. I loaned the book to a Mormon, and he brought it back and said his bishop said he should not read it
the comparison from paul and the road to Damascus and joseph smiths shenanigans are moot paul is forever changed and is christs instead of a murderer of Christians. joseph smith grew deeper and wider in sin while claiming it came from God a very large gap from my perspective.
+Teresa Hansen your observations are excellent. May I add that Joseph Smith entered his lifetime endeavor as a charlatan and left it in the same fashion from the windowsill of the Carthage county jail. Saul began his life as an earnest zealot for God (he prepared himself in excellence), he continued as 'Paul' an apostle of Jesus Christ. Never was he clever or deceptive in his dedicated service.
Not even 7 minutes in and Alma Allred has already lied and said the apologetic answer, "Well, if they don't know it's their fault". Every picture, every statement was about the Urim and Thummin. I was in the church and had never, ever heard or been taught or even mentioned anything about the seer stone. So now anything Alma says, I can't trust or believe.
When Mormon missionaries came to see my spouse and me some decades back, they stated Joseph Smith had translated the golden plates using the urim and thummin, with the plates in front of him. They said nothing about a seer stone. The church changes things and makes it up as it goes along. I have a copy of the original 1830 Book of Mormon, in which it teaches the traditional Trinity of three persons in one God: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, but today the LDS church denies the Trinity, teaches that God was once a man, has a wife and spirit children !! Honestly !!!?
@@legacy756 well, I was a seminary graduate and lifelong member. I participated actively in the church my entire youth. I graduated the top of my HS class and earned full ride scholarships to several Universities. Then, I entered the MTC and studied all of the available church materials. I served in every leadership role available as a missionary. I returned home from my mission and was married in the temple. I taught Sunday School and served in an EQ Presidency. I went to the temple regularly. It wasn't until I saw that infamous South Park episode that I learned of the rock in the hat; or that the plates were never physically seen by anyone; or that Joseph was into polygamy/polyandry; or that the plates themselves were rarely in the room while Joseph dictated the translation; or that the book of Mormon took many months to print, and they (Joseph or Oliver) would hand deliver 1 page at anytime to EB Grandin to print. There is a reason that as a faithful, diligent and intelligent church member I did not know these details: the CES didn't want me to know. This commentator Alma's dismissiveness of well-meaning faithful members is unforgivable. Especially considering that the foindational truth claims of the church are so patently absurd.
It’s been so long but if I remember right, there was a large mural of the picture of Joseph Smith translating the plates as they were pictured on the table in front of him - in the Visitor’s Center in SLC temple square. Also, isn’t that the same painting they always showed us in Sunday School as kids and youth? No hat was anywhere to be seen and I never knew about the “stone in the hat” until I began investigating the foundations of what I believed. “Ye shall know them by their fruits.” - Jesus
I've never seen a "debate" where the freaking "moderator" is on the side of one of the participants and actively takes part in debating as well! I think it was still a worthwhile conversation but who thought that this was a good idea for a format?
+ancientpathstv I don't mean to come off angry...as someone who is seeking to understand this all better I really appreciate that this event was held and that it was shared online for others to watch. I just think it would've come across better if there were a true moderator who didn't actively take one side of the issue. Thanks though for holding and sharing this. As an LDS person I wish there were more LDS who would be willing to have a formal debates!
What do you mean 'LDS don't want to do formal debates anymore'? They have 80000 missionaries that come to your door on Sunday and any other day of the week to challenge you to debate religion. Ask any two of those or the folks who send 'em.
Paul the Apostle was blinded by the light when he saw Jesus, and fell to the ground, and couldn't' see anything when he got up. He was blind until Ananias prayed for him and the scales fell off from His eyes. He was a new man after seeing Jesus and was filled with the Holy Spirit and called of God to be an apostle. Of course Paul saw Jesus, and the men around him even saw the light and heard the voice.
So, anyone's testimony who was 'against' Joseph is blithely dismissed as "lies" and only those for him are accepted. Even then their words have to be carefully railroaded to the only conclusion acceptable for the tbm. These slippery tactics wont work anymore. This guy is such a snake. I felt bad for Grant Palmer having to endure this insulting spinster.
Agreed! The way I see it conveyed by Allred, and by any of the church hierarchy throughout time is, "if you agree to perpetuate our lie, we will defend you, and you will find favor in our sight".
I feel bad for Grant Palmer. I heard a saying a number of years ago that goes something like this "never have an argument with a crazy person. People who do not know the facts can't distinguish between the sane person and a lunatic. The mental gymnastics, Alma Allred has to do, to defend the nebulous and anything but holy origins of the Mormon church, it's heartbreaking to witness. In my opinion, it comes from being too proud, and to invested, to admit that they have made a mistake, and are probably wrong. If this is the real history of the Mormon church, then this should be taught in seminary, Institute, and by the missionaries.
This debate is almost painful to watch. Mr. Alfred is matched 2:1 against, employing a nitpick strategy. Mr. Palmer is too tired to rally much of an effort, and Mr. Wallace plays good cop/bad cop. The only item decided upon is "we agree to disagree" with me being left undecided and this discussion accomplishing nothing useful.
You can be found guilty in a preliminary hearing. The point of the preliminary hearing is so that each side of the case can come together and work it out without a trial. If a trial is needed then the process continues to a trial. If the defendant pleads guilty in the preliminary hearing then there is no need for a trial. If Joseph Smith plead guilty then he was found guilty without the need for a trial.
isthechurchtrue ... It was sort of a quirk of courts at the time. The judge said he found the defendant "guilty", and therefore he was bound over for trial. Nowadays judges don't go that far; the word guilty would be avoided until after the trial. Yes, a Judge found Smith guilty, no he wasn't tried and found guilty. He skipped town on "leg bail" and the court didn't follow up. Pretty common back then.
"I find your comments not as credible." lol "...I was walking with a GA and asked him if he knew about the rock in the hat...." Okay mister credible sources. :) Lets try and have a good discussion without obfuscation, Alma Allred. All sources aren't of equal validity. You are included in that.
If a picture is worth a thousand words, then oh so many thousands of words have been printed in the Ensign of Joseph studying the plates as he translated, and no hat or rock to be seen. No one can be expected to read every bit of literature the church puts out. But everyone saw the pictures. They were deceptive.
34:50 -- regarding a statement from an affidavit: "It takes a lot of credibility [sic for "credulity," most likely] to believe that." Mr. Allred -- you belong to a church founded on stories involving angelic delivery of disappearing golden plates that, as it turns out, weren't "necessary" for a "translation" rendered via a stone in a hat. Plus, "Zelph."
JosephsMyth pulled a rabbit out of his hat and called it The Book of Mormon. And Lo, he did it again and conjured up The Abraham Papyrus. But he didn't have his pet rock at Carthage jail as he took his swan song and dirt nap while chanting Freemason magic words.
What bothers me about this is that it seems like Alma Allred is lacking empathy for the people's lives who have been negatively impacted by the church because of their lack of transparency. The lady who talked about teaching hundreds of children that Joseph Smith translated the book of Mormon by studying it was right. They tell you to teach from the manual, it was NOT her fault she didn't know. To tell you the truth I think he knows it isn't anyone's fault they didn't know, it's just an excuse (an inconsiderate bad one) to not address the issue and end the conversation. Also, it upset me that he took Grant Palmers probation so lightly, basically saying he didn't believe him (only believing when it suits him) and then having the guts to say they laughed when someone put a stone in a hat for a church replica. Really!? Really!? These are real events affecting real people. Just goes to show the inconsistency of the church, one guy gets probation for telling the truth, the other guy laughs when the truth is demonstrated. Maybe Allred would be in the same position as Palmer today if he would have got probation for teaching what he claims to have always taught (the seer stone and hat). Have some compassion for others lives, even when you may not agree.
Truth is true knowledge of thing in the past present and future. A baby can grow up and become an adult.we can grow up and become more like our heavenly Father and his beloved son Jesus Christ. . .
I have been a mormon for 45 years, never heard of the peep stone. looks like damage control for the mormon church. will they still sing the song about the golden plates, or change it to the egg stone rock?
Be sure to check out An Earnest Plea to Latter-day Saints: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PxqV5uJBsm8.html It and our other LDS videos can be seen at www.lds.video.
ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-78qbWE_hXpA.html Mormon beliefs, teachings and doctrine PROVE that Mormonism is NOT a Christian religion. The LDS church is vastly at odds with Christianity: it is ANTI-Christian in fact! Do the research. Here are some of the erroneous and dangerous MORMON teachings, which are in deep and obvious conflict with Christianity: "GOD used to be a man on another planet." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321, Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons, vol. 5, p. 613-614, Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 345, Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 333). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s . . . ," (D&C 130:22). "God is in the form of a man." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 3). "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!!! . . . We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea and take away the veil, so that you may see." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345). "God the Father had a Father." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 476, Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 19, Milton Hunter, First Council of the Seventy, Gospel through the Ages, p. 104-105). "God resides near a star called Kolob." (Pearl of Great Price, p. 34-35, Mormon Doctrine, p. 428). "God had sexual relations with Mary to make the body of Jesus." (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 4, 1857, p. 218, vol. 8, p. 115). NOTE: This is disputed among many Mormons and not always 'officially' taught and believed. Nevertheless, Young, the 2nd prophet of the Mormon church taught it. "Therefore we know that both the Father and the Son are in form and stature perfect men; each of them possesses a tangible body . . . of flesh and bones." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 38). "After you become a good Mormon, you have the potential of becoming a god. "(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 345-347, 354.) "Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132:20). "There are many gods." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 163). "And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light: and there was light." (Book of Abraham 4:3). "There is a mother god." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 443). "God is married to his goddess wife and has spirit children." (Mormon Doctrine, p. 516). "The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man." (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35). NOTE: This is truly astounding to read, for the Book of Mormon itself states: "And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen." (Refer original 1830 printing of the Book of Mormon, in 2 Nephi, at the end of Chapter 13, on page 120, also refer the current LDS website where the same wording is quoted. This wording agrees with the doctrine of the Trinity as taught by mainstream Christianity.) Please view: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qcQthyiTA7c.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-TB5-0sThaX0.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-y2hN9pgpyao.html Blessings! ~~~~~~~
I thought this was a good conversation for the most part although went on tangents at times. The moderator did a good job and I think he was as fair as possible. Was this a Grant Palmer book signing event in conjunction with the conversation? Sure seemed like he spent a lot of time promoting his book.
It wasn't a book signing event. It was a dialogue we sponsored at the University of Utah. You might enjoy some of our more recent LDS videos. They're free at www.lds.video.
I´m a latter day saint and I really like this discussion because it makes me understand both parts and encourage me to study even more the church history, documents and the scriptures.
Thank you for the kind note. Please check out some other free videos we've made at www.lds.video. We're happy to help with any questions you might have.
@@legacy756 We're planning a dialogue for October 3 between James White and Alma Allred at the University of Utah. For more information, drop me an email in a few weeks at jasonopc@aol.com.
Appears evidence is showing how similar Joseph Smith Jr. is to Warren Jeffs (and vice versa). Crazy. Good debate... minus the moderator being obviously on one side. I hoped this would be more like a Richard Dawkins debate Archbishop of the Anglican Church. I think Grant Palmer is very similar to Dr. Dawkins in that he researches out evidence to prove his points (not faith).
Right after Joseph saw God and Jesus in vision, he borrowed a seer stone to search for his own seer stone. He saw one, deeply buried, and it shone through the ground as a beacon. He went and dug it up, and started his life as a seer.
@@ancientpathstv Satan opposes all that is good and holy. But it is just propaganda. Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, and those that followed him escaped the US Civil War. Those people who drove out the Mormons from Missouri, were themselves driven out, and their houses burned to the ground during the Civil war. It's enough to make one believe in Karma.
@@robertrosskopf4641 You clearly did not watch the video to which I pointed you. God bears you His testimony in the Bible that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, who is leading you and your children to Outer Darkness forever. www.lds.video
@@ancientpathstv fair enough. I am currently 25 minutes into said video. Your claim that it had something to do with the Bible seems entirely untrue. They have hardly mentioned the Bible so far. They say it is a lie that the LDS church is true but they don't define ever what makes a church true or false. So they never really discussed the topic at all. Then they accuse the church of another supposed lie, that polygamy wasn't practiced in the church. there is some truth to that. People at the time were very wicked and were persecuting the members of the church. They were not ready for that truth. It would only have led to more deaths. Telling the truth in this case was tantimont to committing murder, like shouting fire in a crowded theator. Thankfully Joseph Smith and others had the good sense to keep it a secret. The church was being subjected to major persecution. There was a war going on. Would you not tell a lie to save your family? And yes it was illegal but at the same time a case could be made that the law was unconstitutional. Marriage is a religious ordinance. As a religious ordinance the state has no jurisdiction over religious marriage. Now we have two different types of religious marriage practiced here and people get confused between them calling them both marriage as if they somehow refer to the marriage of the state. But these are not marriages of the state, these are marriages as viewed by God. So once again this video fails to Define what is a marriage and seems to just assume that any marriage that the state gives is allowed and accepted by God. They never mention the Bible or any verse thereof. The third lie supposedly is the ban on the priesthood. Everyone in the world knows pretty much That there was a priesthood ban for many years. It was necessary. Brigham Young was his own man. Joseph Smith was his own man. They each had their own thoughts and they each had their own beliefs and although they were united on many subjects they were also divided on other subjects. Just because a man is called to be a prophet doesn't automatically make him omniscient. Prophets are allowed to have their own opinions and it is not impossible for a prophet to make a mistake. It has never been a Doctrine in the LDS Church that prophets cannot make mistakes. The Bible gives us a great example of a prophet that made mistakes. His name was Jonah. And so far the Presbyterian Church has not said one word about whether the first statement that the Creed's were false isn't in any way a misrepresentation. So far nothing in this video is new or different or hasn't been talked about before. I have to suppose at this point that the Presbyterian Church believes that it is somehow better to keep the same lies and be consistent, since their main beef so far seems to be that the LDS church is sometimes inconsistent. Should I go through the Bible and show where prophets of the Old and New Testament were also inconsistent? But here again the makers of this video have not brought up the Bible to make any kind of a case. I'll keep watching and hope for something better.
@@robertrosskopf4641 so I am not Presbyterian but you said prophets in the Bible were inconsistent. One at a time let's chat about that. What are the inconsistencies you are referring to?
As far as him comparing second sight to visions in the Bible, Joseph Smith was seeing these things for personal gain which is not the case with those he refers to in the Bible.
The people who run the Mormon church, the rich and successful types like the ones who were on Palmer's disciplinary council, aren't the type who really care enough about the doctrines and history to actually study it thoroughly. The church is more of a business network for them. I suspect it's always been this way.
A poem was recently discovered in the Chicago Public Library Archives from 1840: Old Joe Smith had myriad wives, all but one broke out in hives, the doctor said it's a terrible clap, as old joe smith shook his syphilis-stained flaps, "it was not me," he said with a snicker, as he hefted the crock of sweet corn liquor. "I prefer my girls quite young," as he coughed and he spat the smoke from his lungs, "For I am the prophet of the Mormonist restoration, teen girls for me, many call it molestation." "It is revelation wents my trousers get stiff-olous, it is then I'm required to give young girls syphilis!" "I bed girls married, I bed girls single, as they feel the next day a stinging- itchy tingle." "Their pantaloons green with a holy stain, and their twiddle doth ache with a swollen pain." "It is god's will I cometh and leave my seed," "For it fill my lust, my ego, and my greed."
There are now so many trails professed for the origins of the BoM that it leaves the casual observer in total confusion.Within LDS resources is the appetite to pragmatically select the path du jour that best serves the GA+ purposes. Alma did his best but at this juncture LDS Inc. should publish their official report of when and how BoM was derived. If I were a temple recommend LDS I would demand it, there is no excuse for weaseling around. Of course if an official explanation were nailed to the ground, their critics would be able to challenge them point by point, the end result predictably disastrous. Still, millions of Mormons are investing their lives and their fortunes on something vague and transitory, they deserve from their own leaders objective, candid truth. If the GA+ doubt my prescription I advise them to acquire the JS peep stone from their own vaults, stick it in their hats and read what it tells them.
Article 132 on polygamy has never been reversed by the LDS church. In fact, it CANNOT be reversed, for Joseph Smith introduced it as an "eternal covenant". How about THAT???
They made the original Section 101 disappear, along with the Lectures on Faith (the Doctrine section of Doctrine and Covenants). They can change anything they like at any time. They always have. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fNtWd8bA8ec.html
I give this a thumbs up because this is a presentation of a preannounced discussion of current LDS/Christian concerns.Out of host courtesy many punches were pulled which is reasonable or there would be little chance of ever gaining another LDS advocate for a similar event.Much focus is on Alma because he is the invited (outside) guest, and under the circumstances he did well. Perhaps his weakest moment was when he asserted that learning of the seer stone/Smith connection is the obligation of the hapless LDS follower. Such an incredible requirement from someone who is charged with the responsibility to teach is quite outrageous. Nevertheless Alma presented himself well and was more than gracious in most of his presentation.We are functionally down to this question: was the Book of Mormon 'translated' or was it 'inspired'. The answer to this has for rank and file Mormons enormous significance. So what is it, did Joseph Smith create BoM by 'translation' or 'inspiration'? What is the answer? (clue; the answer can't be 'both' or 'none'), Personally I don't care, I'm not LDS. But for those with a vested interest it is important and the choice of answers depends greatly on what conclusion is placed on the essential function of this brownish stone.
It is noteworthy while Alma put the onus on the individual LDS member to discover for themselves that Joseph Smith primarily used peep stone, when Grant once years ago taught about peep stone history he was called on the carpet and placed on a one year probation. This is hardly encouraging for a poor LDS member to lone wolf their examination of peep stone gazing.
Grant Palmer makes (besides Moses and Paul) one very good point at 1:14:05 . To be honest that bothers me as well. However, I was expecting much more from Grant and I have to say that I am a little disappointed by his arguments. Pastor Jason Wallace makes a great point at 1:13:13 . When it comes to Alma Allred, I totally see and understand the points he is making. So all in all my testimony in Joseph Smith as a prophet, based on this discussion, has not been weakened at all.
how is it that a man who seeks religion will believe what is written in his religion, even if the boundaries of that text is far fetched even to children, yet he will say to another ,"I do not believe in the text you have" even if the thing has a boundaries evident. This is the fruit of religion.
This is not the fruit of religion, but of sinful men trying to hide from God in counterfeit religion. Just because Mormonism lies doesn't mean there is no truth. I encourage you to watch After Mormonism. . . Atheism? and After Mormonism. . . Now What? They're free at www.lds.video.
God is unchanging and almighty! "Yesterday, today and forever, Jesus is the same! The Mormon God is an elevated man, and their Jesus was not born of a virgin, and could not be a sinless savior, so they are preaching a false religion.
You see the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome.a baby can grow up and become an adult.we as real children can grow up and become more like our heavenly Father and his beloved son Jesus Christ. You see you can take the writings off dead prophets and make up all the churches you want and they do . I have never read anywhere where Christ himself did any writing except for in the sand so who wrote the holy bible true teaches prophets of God. I have never read or heard of a perfect prophet. Prophets have the right to make mistakes to learn from them .
Regardless whether the LDS Church is WRONG...What makes your church (a protestant church, a break-off of a break-off) right? Which of all break-off churches is right? You don't believe in the Catholic Church or the "Mormon" Church, so which of the hundreds of break-offs is right? They can't all be right. And, it's ridiculous to make a statement like that.
Sorry, there was an electrical problem that ruined the audio. Here is a better version: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-s6Dfh_eir2g.html
+Austin Twiwble It is not a matter of hating the Mormon church but exposing it for what it is - leading people astray. "Revelation 22:18-19 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." The Book of Revelation establishes Jesus as the One True Prophet and His Word stands until He comes again. Only Jesus gives the right to eat from the Tree of Life, and only Jesus holds the keys of Death and Hell. Its all in Revelation as Jesus speaks to the churches in the first 3 chapters and Revelation 22 warns us "not to add anything." In other words, modern day "prophets" can teach Scripture, but there is no "new" prophecy regarding what we need to do or how we need to live our lives to have eternal life. Ecclesiates 1:9 says it well..."There is nothing new under the sun." People are as much in need of a Savior as they have always been, and Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
But it just seems to me most people are hostile toward it like Jesus said in matt 18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.
Many Christians are "hated" and are being persecuted and even put to death. However, some non-Christians are also hated for what they believe. Perceiving that something or someone is hated doesn't mean or prove that what is being hated is true. Jesus seemed to be making an observation that He was hated by the world and those that follow him may also be hated by the world (non-believers.)It doesn't follow however, that just because someone feels others "hate" their beliefs or their church it is proof they have the Biblical truth of Jesus. What is true is not based on how people feel about us. It is based on the facts of the Bible and the judgement of Jesus.
+Austin Twiwble Is it hate when the LDS scriptures say "Presbyterianism is not true" and our creed is an "abomination" to God? (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith - History 1)
This Minister is also lacking in understanding.. I am only one and the father of my children but does not mean that there cannot be more father's.the same is true with our heavenly Father of my spirit but that does not mean that there cannot be more father's in heaven to. Do not have any other gods before me. Like Golden calves or a god that does not have any body parts or passion. I say that both men and women keep their bodies after resurrection.why come to earth get a baby if we can not keep it after resurrection ? Remember that the essence or purposes of life is growth and to become and to overcome. It is pure love that our heavenly Father wants us to grow up and become like he is. We are all so weak and stupid when I say stupid I mean we all lack knowing everything. We are here on this spinning blue planet to develop fath, to get a baby and to go through experiences to grow up and become like our heavenly parents. Now noting I say heavenly parents because both men and women keep their bodies after resurrection. . Again I know that is our anger our weaknesses that keep us from God.. it is also our lack of understanding and knowledge and probably experiences that keeps us from our potential and from God our heavenly father. Let's all try to grow up a little and look for the good . Again we could not develop fath if we new everything.. let's work things out without blame or finding fault with any person on earth that is trying to grow up and learn truth . ..I love lord Jesus and I want to become like he is .
I'm sorry, but Alma sounds so foolish. No matter what...he refuses to acknowledge the truth about Joseph Smith. That is very sad. Our very soul is at stake....nothing & no one is more important than that. Family & ancestral religious history is not more important than the truth of God. If you have been blessed to be exposed to the truth...embrace it and follow the right path to God....nothing is more important than Almighty God....absolutely nothing!
This is hilarious. Listening to the apologist just makes me laugh out loud. Anything he doesn’t want to believe he says the sources aren’t incredible. Only Joseph Smith was credible, even though he was proven to be a fraud and liar lol.
I am wondering if a lot of people on the other side is getting a big laugh out of all this garbage. Why Can not we understand that it is man's weaknesses that keep us from God.
