Joseph Smith's Surrounding Influences in the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1604 | LDS Discussions Ep. 07 

I know this episode is older. I'm enjoying this series. But, Mike, I love hearing your dog in the background. Mine recently passed away and hearing yours really warms my heart. Keep up the great work, John, Nemo, and Mike.

The Book of Mormon does NOT hold up to scrutiny. When I was younger, it was "scripture." As an adult, I am baffled that anyone who reads it believes that it's divine or historical.

Here's what I find confusing: if the BOM is anti-Masonic, why are the temple rituals so Masonic?

After reading the Book of Joshua after leaving Christianity I got the impression that’s one of the main texts that the settlers used to justify the native genocide and the mound builder myth just added fuel to the fire. However it’s the historical context behind purported sacred texts that make them fascinating to me, from an academic perspective, and the BoM and Joseph Smith are no exception as I was never Mormon so I’m just looking at it from an outsider perspective, that being said I really appreciated this episode.

This is the THE LDS Discussions video for me (so far) - I'm sad that this video doesn't have more views! I've commented here on this subject before, but I believe it is CRITICAL that both believing members and ex-mormons alike educate themselves about JS's worldview in order to understand church history and the BoM itself. A lot of the debate over whether BoM prophecies are vague or specific can be answered by accepting a few simple points: 1. JS and the church in his day believed that the end of days was coming very soon, as in, within their own lifetimes 2. JS was influenced by the fear and suspicion surrounding freemasonry, as discussed in the video 3. Folk magic was well understood and common, but not without its harsh critics, and probably boosted by these earlier Americans' lack of understanding about the world around them, including the "West" which was still frontier (Lewis and Clark began their expedition just 1 year before JS was born!) 4. America was still pretty new - JS wasn't even born 30 years after the signing of the Declaration of Independence, so there was certainly plenty of mysticism, religion-themed destiny talk (aka manifest destiny), and probably fear and insecurity as well surrounding America as a relatively new independent nation (I would love a video all about Mormonism and how perfect it is for American-centrism btw, but I get that that would be very political) Although, speaking of politics, consider that the Louisiana Purchase occurred 2-3 years before JS was born, and the Missouri Compromise occurred when JS was 15 years old. American politics was alive and well and probably running hot indeed by the time JS was a young man. Marry this political climate with Christianity and with all the mysticism surrounding the mound builders and Native Americans at the time, and I think you get the perfect ingredients for an American origin legend, which the BoM really is. Considering and combining these points helps explain the brunt of the BoM, why JS would have authored it, and why people around him would have been willing to believe in it. Btw, my view on "specific or vague" BoM prophecies is: JS wrote them in the frame of mind that they were ALL specific, because he wrote them while expecting his fellow Americans to recognize the references to views, fears, concerns, and beliefs common to the society they lived in. The "vague" sounding prophecies only SOUND vague to us now in the modern day because we've lost that cultural context over the last 200 years. Side note, I can confirm that there's been a lot of effort from the church to frame JS Senior's dream being Lehi's dream as proof of the BoM's validity, as well as JS writing himself into the BoM (Joseph son of Joseph). My mission president actually told us to sprinkle in these points whenever we discussed the BoM with investigators and church members. So these points are absolutely viewed as JS-positive, although this is of course my first time hearing about them in the context of the lost 116 pages. This is the only time I can remember that anyone has mentioned that the lost 116 and the Charles Anthon visit occurred in the same year. I wish I could find an exact date for when Martin Harris visited him, but I can only find the year, 1828. However, I find multiple references to the "summer" of 1828 for the lost 116 pages. So there's a whole half a year's worth of time that the Charles Anthon visit could have occurred before the lost 116. Then JS loses the 116, he has his initial panic, and while he's writing the replacement pages, he includes plenty of references to himself, his family, and his modern day to increase the BoM's validity while he's sweating over the possibility of being exposed as a fraud. It all fits together so neatly. I do want to point out that it doesn't matter whether Martin Harris was there to notice what JS was writing or not. The church's narrative is that JS translated all new material from the "small plates" to replace the 116, so JS was not, presumably, even attempting to replicate the lost 116 pages' worth of text. I'm pretty sure you go into this much more over the next several videos, but I have to laugh every time a church member or apologist makes it sound like there's no possible way a young man could write a fantasy novel with lots of lore, dates, names, and narrative shape in 3 months. I'm of the mind that he actually spent more time on it, closer to the full 18 months' worth of the timeline, but even so - Brandon Sanderson is one of the most popular and beloved fantasy authors working today (and he happens to be Mormon, so most apologists ought to know that he exists). While juggling multiple projects, Sanderson can churn out an intact draft (that changes very little between first draft and final publication) of a 700-1,000 page fantasy novel in a matter of a few months. If it was the only thing he was working on, he could certainly do it in less time. And JS had several years after the "completion" of the translation process to hone the draft, or at least to do line edits. I'm saying that any schmuck can write a book in a few months. Including a fantasy novel. I love writing fantasy and I have been known to churn out 10,000 words in a single DAY when I'm given the time (3.5% of the BoM), and even then I still have work, school, and family obligations to take care of throughout the day. The popular YA sci-fi novel Red Rising was written in a single month, in a room above the author's parents' garage. Many self-published authors today make their living on "writing to market," which means that as soon as they sense that a certain subject is popular in their chosen genre (such as fairytale retellings in fantasy, for example), they write a book on that popular subject in a matter of weeks so they can publish it while the craze is still going on. Apologists who pretend to marvel about how a young man could've written such a """large""" and """complex""" book such as the BoM in a few months have only ever read Lord of the Rings, IF that, and it shows.

I agree with what John said about your contribution Mike! You've done such an incredible job synthesizing so much information. Thank you again for all of your time and sacrifice to share all that you've learned. Many blessings to you!!!

You guys should make a documentary with all your information.

The more I watch these LDS Discussion videos, the more I'm amazed at how much historical context America at large lost since the turn of the century, if not since earlier than that. Sure, at the time, the first church members would have been more familiar with the American myths suggested by the Book of Mormon. But fast forward to the early 2000's when I was a teenager in the church asking questions in midwestern USA, and obviously, most of not all of the church members around me had no idea about the historical context that early church members were once saturated in. My breaking shelf aside, it's just interesting how much was lost. Members' minds and stories self-correcting with the forward march of time and historical study? Americans at LARGE forgetting those assumptions and myths because of the forward march of progress? Losing that context makes the church and the BoM feel more unique without all this in-depth research

The mound builder myth being so much a part of the culture makes me wonder if the Book of Mormon was actually written by JS to be a way to bring in money for the family. I remember hearing he asked two men to travel to Canada to sell the copyright. But once people started to follow him, he was stuck in a lie and decided to go with it.

As John said, Mike, you are really a gift. Thank you for your hard work. More power to you ❤

This is amazing work. Disturbing, but amazing. Thank you.

Your hard work pays off. Keep up the good work. Thanks for all your work. It’s appreciated.

“Attention all planets of the Solar Federation. We have assumed control.”

This discussion was great. I think we can set aside the question of whether or not Joseph Smith plagiarized the BOM. I find it reductive and fundamentally misunderstanding Joseph. The very nature of creative work is to observe, absorb, synthesize, reinvent, quote, allude, elaborate, repurpose. This is natural to all good creatives and at the core of how they make new work. Himself a natural creative, of course Joseph used consciously and subconsciously everything he was exposed to. I imagine that was the easy part for him, the intuitive part. Why would he need to plagiarize from another work? Why would he want to? Easier to just “be inspired” and let the creative process happen. Critics and apologists who argue about plagiarism from another work to prove/disprove the BOM lack understanding of creative processes. That’s not to say the BOM is wholly original nor the least bit historical. Just that the arguments about plagiarism are strained, over-simplistic, and unnecessary. No he didn’t plagiarize. Again, why would he? He’d proven to himself and others that inventing his own imagined stories and folding in common religious, cultural, and fake-historical ideas worked great to intrigue audiences.

Great series even a year later. Still relevant! Thanks!

That picture of the mound at about 23:00 reminds me of the "rameumptom"

Has any work been done to discover if Joseph Smith was part of a conspiracy and did not act alone? Could it be a group effort by some members of his family and some of the witnesses etc?

You can re-air any episode. All are excellent!

Did the secret meetings of 1922 influence the removal of lectures on faith from the doctrine and covenants ?

great show!

Ive heard of these mounds before, but ive traveled all over the country and ive never come across them before.

Thank you. Watching from Alaska. Excellent.

I had read that Smith was an avid fan of pirate tales during his childhood, notably the tales of Captain Kidd. I believe he took the name Moroni from the capital city of Comoros island in the Indian Ocean. One of the stories has Captain Kidd burying treasure on the island and also burying a dead crewmate so his soul could guard it. Sound familiar? Moroni, Hill Cumorah, treasure? Also, the shape of Comoros island is similar to the shape of the Hill Cumorah in New York, and he said the plates were buried on the west side of the hill, while the city of Moroni is on the west side of Comoros island. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lcX-0zLPYbk.html

As a former member of the church who was born into this religion ...learning and understanding the truth about JS and the BOM has been the most hurtful thing. As a young woman I grew up thinking of him as a model Mormon. I prayed over the Book of Mormon and read it everyday. My family was VERY active growing up. Im so appreciative of my mormon roots because i feel any good in me is from my moral standards amd up bringing that came along with mormon expectations. Some of my family still practices and it is not a struggle on my part bc i am out of it but my family is still in and they struggle with me being out. I only broke free after getting a education and science degree chalenging my faith and me learning objective truths about the world and choosing those truths were my truths too. But i repect all religions and non religious people, I just want everyone to be happy.

The only thing I'd have to say to contradict the guest is that having the myth of Adam and Eve or the flood in the BOM wouldn't inherently make it false. It could easily be seen as the Nephites bringing their traditional myths over to the new land with them. The problem is with the book of Ether. That's where the issues arrise

I love these LDS Discussions episodes! One question I have: WHY did JS write the BOM? Was this a book that he intended to become the backbone of a new religion that he would lead? Was it more just a way to answer questions people around him were grappling with…and he hoped he could sell it? What was his headspace? Do you think he had any ambitions to grow it into what the LDS church has become at the time he wrote the book?

From someone who has studied the bible at a graduate level, the words you need for your discussion of contemporary texts is "the literary context."

It is all about: "working towards a desired religious outcome".

I kept wondering who's family member was driving my family member crazy, until now. @LDS Discussions 31:50 🤣

John's comparison of the BOM's use of Bible prophecy to New Testament use of Hebrew prophecy reminds me of a classic Jewish joke: God created the Mormons so that Christians would know how Jews feel.

Not only was the Isaiah 48 quotation anachronistic because of the KJV translation, it is quoted as the entirety of Isaiah chapter 48, verses 1-22 but, the chapter divisions weren’t added until 1222AD

Mike's great. But I wonder if his presentations would be more effective for those unfamiliar with Mormon lies if he'd do less of the info-dump style and, instead, giving more exposition and context for his facts. John does a good job of stopping him and giving the audience the exposition they need to understand why Mike's info matters but Mike could benefit from slowing down, using less words and facts, and really choosing words and ideas more carefully to craft a narrative. It's probably not how his brain works but something he should at least try doing. John won't always be there to make things make sense.

I don't think Joseph plagiarized View of the Hebrews but I agree with B.H. Roberts that Joseph used that book as a source for the BOM. It isn't just a coincidence in my opinion that the author of View of the Hebrews was Oliver Cowdery's pastor in Poultney, Vermont and that the book was written in 1823 with a second edition in 1825. Certainly, there were other books espousing the mound builder myth but they don't have the same close connection to Joseph.

Plagiarism is borrowing another's words or IDEAS without permission. I agree that the Mound Builder myth was common knowledge, and therefore using its basic concepts cannot be plagiarism. However, Joseph Smith seemed to borrow a set of ideas unique to View of the Hebrews. Wesley P. Walters in his "The Use of the Old Testament in the Book of Mormon" (p. i [abstract], 1990) states: "It was noted that the quotations [in the Book of Mormon] were largely utilized to support Joseph Smith's eschatological views regarding the American Indians as being of Israelite origin. In this connection it is pointed out that the usage closely parallels the use of a number of the same passages by Rev. Ethan Smith in his "View of the Hebrews," a book whose second edition was in print [in 1825] five years before the Book of Mormon. Many of the points made by this England clergyman [Ethan Smith] in regard to the Hebrew origin of the American Indian are paralleled in the Book of Mormon. This includes the idea that the American Indians, being Israelites, will be restored; that the American Gentiles have been divinely called to recover these Israelites; that the Pilgrim fathers were expressly brought by God to America to fulfill this role; that should they fail this responsibility God will use the Indians/Israelites to destroy them; that America is one of the "isles of the sea" referred to by Isiah and as such it will eventually become a center for the gathering of the American Israelites, becoming a veritable Garden of Eden. The closeness of these parallels, which includes interpreting the same passages of Isaiah in precisely the same manner, are too numerous to be mere coincidence and therefore provide evidence that Joseph Smith was strongly influenced in the use of the Old Testament by the Rev. Ethan Smith's book." Walters also states (p.99): "In setting forth his understanding of the events of the latter days, Ethan Smith makes seven distinctive points that set him apart for the other eschatological writers of his day. While others did join him in concurring with some of these points, it is the combination of all these into a system that is the unique contribution of Ethan Smith's book." Walters then details these seven points and shows how the Book of Mormon has the same eschatological views (see pages 99 to 169).

Where can I find a copy of Joseph Seniors dream of the tree of Life?

I'm not able to track down the source of the quote of William Henry Harrison. But Harrison moved to Ohio in 1814 and lived in Ohio, except for a year or two (1828-1829) when he was a U.S. envoy to Colombia, until 1840. (Also note that Harrison had fought against native Americans in Ohio and Indiana - and then in the War of 1812 - from 1791 to 1814. So literally that entire period of time could be when he wrote what is quoted here in the video.) If anyone else can track down the actual source and year of when Harrison wrote that, that would be nice.

Brilliant!

Mike ur a rock star! And John it’s goes with out saying! I am a nevermo loving this series! My dad raised Catholic and went thru the Bible and did this. I was raised with the truth about the Bible. I believe in truth and science and archeological record and not mythical books created to explain what we as an advanced society have debunked and proved with science. Goes without saying I am an atheist.

if Joseph was born, and started Mormonism in my time, I'm sure he would have added Chewbacca as prophet … Crumbs! Love you Joseph hahaha I'm glad I didn't give my kids book of Mormon names. Chewbacca worked perfectly.

What happened that this needed a rebroadcast?

This should be part of what missionaries teach future converts as well. Let people know the full spectrum of where mormonism comes from and let people decide for thenselves if they wish to drink the cool-aid or not.

You get a Like for Rush 2112!!

Mike says , "there is a chance Joseph read View of the Hebrews" or knew of it? Ya think? The book was written by Oliver's pastor in Poultney, Vermont in 1823. Almost certainly Joseph read the book and he certainly knew of it and discussed it with Oliver. Not even B.H. Roberts would deny that Joseph used the book in writing the Book of Mormon.

John I'm loving this shit. Keep it up!

The ancient celts built similar mounds as well, some of which still exist in Scotland, Wales, and Ireland ❤ Not that they are related to Native Americans. I’m pretty sure not anyways lol. But it does make me think of the land bridge theory. I’m no historian 🤷🏻‍♀️

I always felt so much guilt because I did not love reading the BoM or other scriptures. So many nights I fell asleep feeling like I was a failure because I wasn’t reading my scriptures enough. What a huge relief to realize it is all a myth!!!!! While there is value in myth, I believe it is important for people to know the stories are not historical. I believe the downfall of Christianity/Mormonism will be their insistence on literalism. Modern people are becoming too rational to believe these books (Bible/BoM) are historically accurate. While deconstructing has been painful I sure don’t miss all the guilt and shame!

So where did these mounds come from?

Grasp ye the holy handrail, there’s fruit at the end.

Land back!

Do Mormons still believe in the nook of Mormon? I do want to read it to see what it says. I like to read stuff before I make any judgements.

There is also the intractable position through the history of Christianity that you can't get to Heaven except through Christ. This separates believers in Christ from everyone else. This has also been a rationalization for imperialism, racism, and further violence against indigenous people.

As I study Emanuel Swedenborg, I realized he probably wrote his books as fast or faster than JS wrote the book of Mormon. JS took a lot of his ideas from Emanuel.... three glorys of heaven etc. . Many. Just saying.

Not only would you have to believe the native Americans would treasure dig for slippery treasure, you have to believe Joseph really was hunting for REAL treasure, which would also mean WHY THE HECK ARENT WE STILL LOOKING FOR BURIED TREASURE!

The thing i dont get about this light skin dark skin thing is that hebrews are dark skinned, no? What am i missing?

Ha ha 2112 is a fabulous album.

So off topic... it's Mike the new snack guy on tiktok??

I tried to read the Book of Mormon. It really is terribly written, boring and obviously derivative. The KJV is also full of silly ideas, but it’s great literature.

I love that the Jews and or their tribes would have been white

They call themselves 'prophet' because all they want is 'profit'...get it?

No serious Christian or religious person for that matter can take this. Another thing is wether you could be a religious person or believe in God. But Mormonism come on.

Wow, this stuff gets dull very quickly.

Ease up on preaching about the Native Americans. Read the Jesuit Missionairies in North America. There are very specific reasons they were considered "savages" to the French and British settlers. Taking captives, both Anglo and native rivals, slow cooked over a flame, and slowly consumed (eaten), that often took three days before death released the victim. Once that happened to a family member or neighbor, you can appreciate the attitude that existed during those eras. I have ancestors who suffered that fate. Also consider Columbus came in 1492, the same year of the reconquista of Spain from the Moros. Had Spain not won, the Americas could have been settled by the Moros (Islam). What would have become on the Natives then? Either way, Russia was coming, Spain was coming, England was coming...and nothing was stopping the invasion.

"And again..."

Joseph will bring people to SALVATION???? No.

What is the point of this channel?

In its title The Book of Mormon tells us exactly what it is. “Mormon” means “bugbear,” which is an imaginary specter used to frighten disobedient children. Therefore, The Book of Mormon is The Book of Bugbear, or a book used to frighten, into obedience, child-like and gullible people. “Mormo: One says [nominative] Μορμώ , [genitive] Μορμοῦς , like Sappho. Also [nominative] Μορμών (= Mormon), [genitive] Μορμόνος . Aristophanes [writes]: ‘I beg you, take the Mormon (τὴν Μορμόνα) away from me.’ [Meaning] away the frightening things; for Mormo was frightening. And elsewhere Aristophanes [writes]: ‘a Mormo for his courage!’ [sc. This refers to] a mormolukeion, which they call Lamia (Λαμίαν); and thus also they would call frightening things. The [word] ὡς is omitted, [i.e.] 'as Mormo', or it is formed adverbially, as if one said, 'Alas for courage!' (Μορμώ: λέγεται καὶ Μορμώ, Μορμοῦς, ὡς Σαπφώ. καὶ Μορμών, Μορμόνος. Ἀριστοφάνης: ἀντιβολῶ σ', ἀπένεγκέ μου τὴν Μορμόνα. ἄπο τὰ φοβερά: φοβερὰ γὰρ ὑπῆρχεν ἡ Μορμώ. καὶ αὖθις Ἀριστοφάνης: Μορμὼ τοῦ θράσους. μορμολύκειον, ἣν λέγουσι Λαμίαν: ἔλεγον δὲ οὕτω καὶ τὰ φοβερά. λείπει δὲ τὸ ὡς, ὡς Μορμώ, ἢ ἐπιρρηματικῶς ἐξενήνεκται, ὡς εἰ ἔλεγε, φεῦ τοῦ θράσους.)” Suda (Σοῦδα) (10th century AD). Trygaeus Lamachus, this is terrible! You are in the way, sitting there. We have no use for your Medusa's head (μορμόνος = Mormonos, noun, singular, feminine, genitive of Μορμών = Mormon), friend (Τρυγαῖος ὦ Λάμαχ’ ἀδικεῖς ἐμποδὼν καθήμενος. οὐδὲν δεόμεθ’ ὦνθρωπε τῆς σῆς μορμόνος.). Aristophanes (Ἀριστοφάνης) (about 446-386 BC), Peace (Εἰρήνη), 473-474. “DICAEOPOLIS I know nothing about it; the sight of weapons (τῶν ὅπλων = armour in some translations) makes me dizzy. Oh! I adjure you, take that fearful Gorgon (μορμόνα = Mormona, noun, singular, feminine, accusative of Μορμών = Mormon) somewhat farther away (Δικαιόπολις οὐκ οἶδά πω· ὑπὸ τοῦ δέους γὰρ τῶν ὅπλων εἰλιγγιῶ. ἀλλ’ ἀντιβολῶ σ’ ἀπένεγκέ μου τὴν μορμόνα.). LAMACHUS There (Λάμαχος ἰδού.).” Aristophanes (Ἀριστοφάνης) (about 446-386 BC), Acharians (Ἀχαρνεῖς), 580-582. “so that the Lacedaemonians were even so unkind as to make game of their allies, saying that they feared the peltasts just as children fear hobgoblins (μορμόνας = mormonas [μορμῶνας codd.] = feminine, plural, accusative of Μορμών = Mormon) (ὥστε οἱ μὲν Λακεδαιμόνιοι καὶ ἐπισκώπτειν ἐτόλμων ὡς οἱ σύμμαχοι φοβοῖντο τοὺς πελταστὰς ὥσπερ μορμόνας παιδάρια.).” Xenophon (Ξενοφῶν) (about 430-354 BC), Hellenica (Ἑλληνικά), Book IV, Chapter 4.17. “MORMON is a greek word. According to the Baptist Register, ‘Donnegan and other authors of Greek dictionaries define it, 'A bugbear, a hobgoblin, a raw head and bloodybones, a hideous spectre, a frightful mask, something to frighten children.' It is thus used by the Greek author Theocritus, and the Greek author Aristophanes the comic poet. Solomon Spalding, having tried to preach three or four years and failed, then having tried mercantile business and failed, being a classic Greek scholar, and out of all business, wrote for his amusement what he called the the 'Book of Mormon,' i.e., as he understood it, the Book of Spectres.-After his death, the ignorant Joe Smith and S. Rigdon, coming into possession of the book, and ignoranlly pretending that Mormon was a sacred Jewish name, have used the book for deceptive purposes, as all the world know, and have attempted to clothe the word Mormon with a sacred meaning. Above is the true definition and origin of the word, as well as of the book. MORMONS, then, the anglicised word, or the derivative as comprehending the people may be defined 'Devotees to bugbears, hobgoblins and spectres.’-Seventeen thousand of such devotees, it is said, are now residents in Nauvoo.-Mer.” Tioga Eagle, Wednesday, September 13, 1843.