Brad, based on readings I've done I do believe your question about liver vs body for ketosis NAD+ is crtitical. Liver cannot use ketone bodies and thus will not get the nad+ bump from beta hydroxy butyrate. The opposite is true across most other cell types in the body. Ketosis creates a higher NAD + to NADH ratio and importantly does not appear to lower the NAD pool. The other issue with high-fat that is often missed for ketogenic diets, which is why carnivore seems to be more effective is that fat cells can utilize fat flux mechanism. No need for lipogenesis if fat levels are high enough. The cells simply store the excess. 2 parts. 1 dietary fat intake if meets needs will not put demand on stored fat. 2. If exceeds needs does not need lipogenesis to be stored. Ketogenic diets with incorrect fat levels and profiles will drive both of the above. Carnivore diet skirts this by keeping insulin low enough to get into ketosis, but by creating a fat deficit, thus demand from fat cells. Keto and Carnivore are as close as we can get to eating and comming out of topor. Even if you add in leafy greens the first carbs of spring, you'll not see any insulin spikes. You will be in ketosis and NAD+ to NADH ratio will be pro NAD+. Ideally you need metabolic flexibility. Based on all the conflicting studies it seems the way to force that is macro nutrient deprivation cycles plus activitiy variation. Drop carbs out for bit. Drop fat out for a bit, drop protein out for a bit. Fast for a bit. Over eat for a bit. Exercise fed, exercise fasted. Confuse the body. Love the content. Will continue primarily eating less processed food and focus on high quality fats, c-8 and stearic acid, meat and low carb veg. With cycles out to high carb on occasion. Adding in flush niacin to support the NAD total pool. One other thing Chris Masterjohn pointed out that the ETC requires a pull on atp to adp ratio or it can back up and even run in reverse. So we have lypogenisis and heat as the dumps for ETC energy with no ADP to fill. Perhaps walking or short high intensity activity fornthose who can would ensure ETC flow?
Hi, Alex. I enjoyed your comment. I didn't understand all of it, but I liked the parts I did understand. 🙂 Regarding your remarks about ketogenic and carnivore diets, it seems most named diets (vegan, vegetarian, paleo, keto, etc.) have different interpretations for how they can be implemented. In your opinion, since you obviously have a lot of knowledge I don't, how would you describe a proper carnivore diet? Would that include any plant foods? The reason I ask the question is I've seen some folks who only eat ribeyes and water. Not even any salt. Others eat organ meats. Still more, like Paul Saladino (in his current iteration, anyway), are eating fruit and honey. I'd welcome any insights you might be willing to share. Best wishes.
Brilliant Brad, has filled in some pieces of the puzzle for me. I did keto for 3 years, great to start with (loads of benefits) but ran aground with dreadful hypothermia and vasoospasm (lean mass hyper responder), up to wee 4 times a night etc going back to starch has reversed all that (not as ripped but probably healthier) would be nice if those trials had body temp too. I’ve got a few degrees in cell physiology etc, so loved the science. Had always wondered how the vilification of carbs sat with the starch cultures we know all do so well.
As to trials having body temp…. Right?! There are so many basic pieces of info the trials leave out. Body temp is SO easy to do, but nutritionists don’t see it as important.
the science is hard sometimes but it is good, so you should keep it the way it is. it makes me more interested in learning biochemistry and I have watched several basic biochemistry videos on the side just to learn more about metabolism and diet, and that was also thanks to you that I got this new passion. it is always great to learn new things. If you have the time perhaps you should consider doing a playlist of basic biochemistry explanation related to your content also, including some simple explanation about the molecules, enzymes and process you most talk about. Anyway, thank you for sharing all your knowledge. You are helping many people!
I appreciate you not "throwing" keto under the bus. I did keto for a year and greatly improved my health. Right now I am eating a low pufa, high carb, butter and coconut oil diet. Interestingly, my waist is shrinking, but the rest of my body is staying "full." The high coconut oil I am eating is also helping me sleep deeply at night, too. When I did keto for a year, I lost weight all over, and the skin under my chin was a little flabby. Now my face is full, but my waist is shrinking. I don't know how much weight I have lost, but I do not care. I only care about losing inches off waist.
I seems PUFAs are particularly bad for gain visceral fat, the stuff around your organs that is the worst fat to store. Coconut oil seems incredibly good at getting rid of visceral fat so I imagine that is what you are seeing with your waist.
yeah, that is what I was thinking, too. I think I may have lost some lean body mass as well. Nevertheless, keto did improve my health in a lot of ways.@@marlenecampbell5439
We should admit that you're building a great picture, which looks very workable. And you may not be aware but these episodes of yours are the very education which the public really needs. Very engaging and simple. I do thank you for your art on the web. And may I suggest a topic for some upcoming episode if you allow me: I wonder if you have researched any data which may falsify/disprove your model? I mean maybe you yourself tried to come up with some challenging hypotheses to your model or some part of it? Anyways, thanks for all the things you are doing.
We have to go with the science we have. I’m still not entirely sure what my hypothesis is. I’m sharing with you all the things I see in the literature as I see them. There is a lot of literature. Thank you for your appreciation of the channel!
Don't worry about them being too sciency, because I feel like we're piecing together a puzzle. Sometimes I watch these several times to help bring it together. When the video started, I wondered if you would bring up Denise Minger and her word "carbosis".. you didn't disappoint. I've noticed when I eat a high fat meal, I crave sugar about an hour later. Could it be hypoxia induced?
Interesting point about hypoxia. To my defense, I did not say the word “carbo sis”, nor will I. Feel free to suggest a better word for a HCLF diet, though :)
i'm finding these 'carb' vids very interesting! i don't lose weight on the keto diet, plus i need all the macros, so it's very nice to here the magic that i can get outside of the keto diet! thanks, Brad! x
So wouldn’t the potato version be more ideal since our metabolism will be running higher and thus allowing other processes in the body to be more efficient?
Yes. I mean, inherently this makes sense. The question remains: can those who are metabolically broken fully regain their ability to efficiently burn carbs.
@@fireinabottle3410 anecdotally how could someone tell. Say they followed the potato diet for up to a year how could they say they have regained their ability?
That Hall study.....14 days is not long enough to test any two diets. And keto adaptation had been previously determined to take at least 6 weeks so he ignored all that literature. The study was designed to discredit low carb diets not fairly test them. This is like a study where they gave people only 400iu of vitamin D, never test the participants blood for vitamin D, then claim vitamin D is not effective. Peter at Hyperlipid discusses Kevin Hall papers with some good analysis.
14 days is certainly not long enough to evaluate the long term effects of different diets. I don’t think I was arguing that it was? BUT!! The Kevin Hall study gave us insight as to what happens to redox balance (NADH/NAD+) - at least in the short term - of two very different diets. In humans!!! This is invaluable!! I understand that you are pro-keto. I’d argue that you should also be pro-understanding.
Note that the researchers nor Brad never claim that either diet is effective or not. They just show the effects during that timespan and conclude just what happens in that context.
Too bad there isn't a study of the "swamp" with only coconut oil or something like that. Could see how much fat composition influences the outcome at those macro ratios.
There aren’t any studies. Nor am I convinced that they’d be worthwhile. Once the metabolism is broken, one may not be able to go back to the swamp with ANY fat composition. But we’ll see. The French and stearic acid studies on rodents suggest swamp ratios are possible with saturated fat.
Weight loss isn't complicated. If you aren't triggering the Randle cycle, you (likely) won't gain weight. It's only when you eat high fat high carb that you gain lots of weight.
On a macro I'd say it's because of its lower calorie density and combination with water and fiber. Sugar is not filling and absorbs too fast. Also doesn't come with protein like lots of starch based foods.
So for Ketoers, is attempting to raise NAD+ by methods like supplementing R-ALA shooting ourselves in the foot, since the keto magic is based on a higher NADH/NAD+ ratio? Could choosing saturated fat as a main fat source also be a problem since that produces more NAD+ (if I am recalling earlier info correctly)? I've been trying to figure out why I feel so lousy on sat fat and why the most successful keto stint I ever had was when I lived on store-bought salad dressing, pork sausage, eggs, mayo, and lite olive oil (high pufa and mufa w/out polyphenols). Just cuz I'm older now, or something else...
Why would you do this? Weight loss is already fast with the potato hack, might as well do a supervised water fast in 30 day intervals until you achieve your goals, but it's not fun. Potato hack is satisfying and works will enough.
Too bad eating in swampland is so tasty... but this does neatly explain both keto and veganism being successful better than anyone else has managed to do for me even if I'm still not 100% on how burning more glucose burns body fat in any larger quantities. I feel like it would up one's metabolism and let one eat more calories without gaining weight, but does it up regulate enough to make a good dent in fat stores? The potato diet guys results would suggest so
You're never not burning fat. At rest muscles burn fat. When you increase the metabolism via HCLF you have all these processes that require fat in the body, while simultaneously supplying less fat thru the diet while also stepping on the metabolic gas pedal. I've been HCLF (low protein as well) and I have found I get TOO lean, and need to add in more fat (coconut oil 92 always)! At least that's how I understand it.
But I thought NAD+ levels go up on Keto? How is that if the NADH/NAD+ ratio goes up on keto? Also what would the effect of NAD+ boosters be on keto then?
I've eaten nearly 5000 calories today and still don't feel very full. 1 entire box of Walmart Corn Flakes (680 grams), 2 liters of 2% milk and a box of Kraft Dinner. It was pretty hot today (25 celcius) and I didn't even feel that hot today. Weight has ran from the low range of 163 to the high range of 171 in the few months since getting off keto; most of that has been muscle mass. Getting comments on my arms all the time at my Walmart job. The Roundup and psoriasis relationship I hypothesized seems to be false.
Tell us more about the relationship between roundup and psoriasis and your personal experience. I know it’s on past threads, but not everyone reads all of the threads.
@@fireinabottle3410 I falsely attributed the psoraisis trigger to the massive cornflakes intake is all I'd want to get across. It was more likely stress and lack of sleep.
Loading up on all those synthetic vitamins and minerals in the cereal, especially iron and Vitamin A (see the work of Grant Genereux and Garrett Smith) sounds like a really bad idea.
@@johnp7739 I heard of the vitamin A thing and even read a part of his book. I really like the foods he recommends as part of a low vitamin A diet and feel those foods make me feel the best. At the same time, I like eating 6000 calories a day with cereal sometimes. Sometimes I also eat a ton of shreddies which I don't see anyone recommending. Othertimes I eat high protein. I think that cycles are more important than anything, the body craves variation. But I tend to come back to low vitamin A as the baseline, with the steak and white rice etc. I can see how he has a thing with that, its a good diet.
Excellent video, Brad! But how does saturated fat interact here? I've seen comments that SFA blocks CPT-1, or at least rate-limits it to not overwhelm the mitochondria. Can you corroborate this? It makes sense, since you mentioned how cells preferably take in unsaturated fats like linOleic acids (and linolenic). Saturated fat just sits there and prevents oxidation... probably until the cell is ready for it. I can still eat risotto and/or lasagna and maintain my weight very easily. In other words, the swampland needs major caveats.
Of COURSE the swampland needs caveats. Obviously this video is a clever setup to me talking about WHY the French diet works right in the middle of the swampland. But. You know, the video was already 51 minutes long 😂🤣
I want to understand this, why the French diet works. I do not want to eat on either side hclf or keto, neither practical to maintain. @@fireinabottle3410
Great presentation. How does that fit together with mouse studies recording higher ratios of NAD+/NADH in the brain following ketosis? (DOI: 10.3389/fnut.2018.00062 , doi: 10.3389/fnmol.2017.00377)
What happens without protein? Just potatoes? Dr Don Layman said we need to eat 30g twice a day to maintain our lean body mass I don’t want to get sarcopenia with just eating potatoes.
Potatoes have plenty of protein. Certainly as much as you need for short term protein restriction. (~3 months) Fast growing pigs need ~ 10% protein if they get sufficient essential amino acids. Mainly just lysine is the limiting factor. These pigs add on 1 lb of lean mass per day. And you’re worried that you’re not getting enough protein?
@@fireinabottle3410 I'm not sure Dr Don Layman would agree with you on this point Brad. He tells us that as humans we need 30g of protein at one sitting to trigger muscle protein synthesis. By my calculation that would require eating nearly 4lbs of boiled potatoes in one go, which is almost impossible! If we rarely get that 30g at one sitting , we become vulnerable to sarcopenia, according to Dr Layman.
@@KevinMcHale-p1m there has been some suggestion that cellulose improves protein sparing potential (which might explain why vegans suffer less rapidly than expected, and even maybe if there's any truth to longevity claims). iirc Layman acknowledges that variations can support a range within which MPS is activated or staving off sarcopenia might occur?
@fireinabottle3410 that may be true for pigs, but what happens as we age and supposedly developed anabolic resistance and so apparently need more to avoid being frail?
Potato protein is almost as bioavailable as eggs, almost 100%. Broad protein requirements count many sources that could access 70%. Higher protein requirements is only needed for frail people if old age, just don't get frail in the first place by staying active.
I went very deep into a rabbithole and I need to stop now, so I'll ask a question which I couldn't answer myself: Tryptophan is primarily (>90%)[a][g] catabolized by the kyurenine pathway, culminating in the production of NAD+. I couldn't figure out how much typically becomes NAD+ but it appears to be a supermajority.) Most of the products of the kyurenine pathway are water-soluble[b][d][g] and so easily eliminated by the kidneys[e], and are also often AhR ligands.[f] Also the ones that aren't water soluble seem to be implicated as strong markers of T2D, Metabolic Syndrome, atherosclerosis, and some general pathologies. So, does a ketogenic diet work better with a large tryptophan supplement? (Increased pool of NAD+.) Also, I've seen evidence suggesting that the amino acid profiles of plant proteins tend to cause them to be more prone to oxidative catabolism rather than anabolism. Perhaps eating a whole bunch of potatoes/grains supports a relative increase in NAD+ levels aside from the pyruvate-involved mechanism(s)? [a] "Reliable detection of indoleamine 2,3 dioxygenase-1 in murine cells and tissues" DOI: 10.1016/bs.mie.2019.08.008 [b] baseline measurements in Figure 3, DOI: 10.1177/1178646920978241 [d] I did a lot of Googlez, trust me. (Really, I did. Don't know how complete my listing was, though.) [e] I think that's how this works. Amirite? It seems coherent with the data in the rest of the citations I've given here. [f] "Impact of the Gut Microbiota on Intestinal Immunity Mediated by Tryptophan Metabolism", DOI: 10.3389/fcimb.2018.00013 [g] "Quantitative aspects of tryptophan metabolism in humans and other species: a review", DOI: 10.1093/ajcn/24.6.659
Tryptophan metabolism is very complicated. In all likelihood, the science that will allow us to understand it hasn’t been done yet. To make things easier, remember that biology is always feedback loops. In all likelihood, the thing causing increased kynurenine isn’t “too much tryptophan”. It’s insulin resistance. It’s part of the loop. That doesn’t mean that you can’t break out of the loop by limiting tryptophan intake. You might be able to. My gut feeling is that SUPPLEMENTING tryptophan is a bad idea because it’s going to go down that pathways that your body is set up to have it go down. Supplementing with something closer to NAD* may be wise, like niacinamide, NMN, etc…
Love all of the information, but as someone who is not obese, but who would like to lose some fat while continuing to gain muscle, I wonder what the best angle of attack is. Trying to "recomp" is difficult, I realize, but pushing heavy weights 4 day per week normally requires higher protein intake. Where is the sweet spot with regards to the macros? Can we glean this from all of this data?
How about the potato hack with added pure protein powder? You would be hungrier in all cases and eat more, but still be in a caloric deficit because of the low caloric density.
Indeed. And it's not really a weight loss diet either. It's fantastic for maintenance (me) but for losing you need an energy deficit (carbs or fat) to trigger the body fat liberation. Otherwise you'll just reach homeostasis.
The Croissant Diet was making the point that saturated fat and especially stearic acid was better than unsaturated fat when you are in Swampland ratios. Better still might be getting OUT of swampland ratios. The French have shown that in the long term, humans can probably live in Swampland ratios if their main source of fat is DAIRY. Show me a culture who has lived in permanent swampland whose fat is not highly saturated (dairy/coconut). Meat fat is not that saturated.
@@fireinabottle3410 well Saladino isn’t getting fat and most of his SF comes from meat and the rest of his diet dairy and fruit and he isn’t fat…..yet.
@@dianabenjamin7837 No idea but when I was there about 12 years ago, was tough to find an overweight person. Then went all over Spain after France, and whilst there were still a lot of lean people, I noticed a lot more overweight people. And they love their olive oil there
@@dianabenjamin7837 Which is very interesting because both countries have very similar diets but there are a few key ingredients that are a bit different, the main one being animal/dairy fat vs olive oil. One thing about the Spanish though is that they love their hot chocolate, which probably helps them a load
I was watching a High Intensity Health video the other day (Protein, you need more than you think) and at about 16 minutes in Mike talks about a protein to carbohydrate ratio study. All cause mortality goes up significantly as percentage of protein in the diet drops below 30% of calories with a peak risk at about 15% of calories. The potato hack diet = 10% is the upper limit on fat, 75% is carb, and 15% for protein (about 75g in a 2000 calorie diet). Aka, the point of peak risk of all cause mortality. Just wanted to put that out there. You do you.
Preferred by whom and in what way? In my ideal world I’d sip wine and smoke cigarettes and eat pizza. My suspicion is that people on a low fat high carb diet are more metabolically flexible than those on keto. If that’s what you’re asking.
@@fireinabottle3410 well that's exactly what I'm doing... Except I use beer in the form of a fine Italian beer... Pizza with extra virgin olive oil and actually now I'm trying to make my dough with coconut oil... I already ordered a box of bugles, and plantains
By the way the work you are doing is magnificent and I'm hanging on every word thank you for being super scientific that's what we need we are smart people and we can adjust to this lingo and jargon... Don't stop thank you very much for all that you do... I've already cut out all pufas and it's been almost 10 months coming up it's November... Yes I want to eat Taco Bell and I want to eat a lot of things but I haven't not I've made everything at home with coconut oil or olive oil just tried to stay straight and I'm turning 50 so I think I look pretty good, and want to keep it... Every food has carbs in it so I think the high-carb low-fat except with the fat being coconut oil is the way to go... I think that's the way you're leaning is well
Hi Brad - sorry for the off-topic question but does this study go against the SCD1 theory of obesity or support it? Kinda confused - PubMed 24550191 "Overfeeding Polyunsaturated and Saturated Fat Causes Distinct Effects on Liver and Visceral Fat Accumulation in Humans"
That study is pretty much pointless. They overfed two groups, with the goal of getting them both to gain 3% of their bodyweight over 7 weeks, and adjusted calories to accomplish this, and both groups gained about 3% of bodyweight which is only about 2 kg, or 4 pounds. They then try to claim that there were some differences in lean and fat mass gained between groups. But this is ridiculous, as they only report in "relative percent changes," which makes any difference between groups seem much bigger than it is. And even with this metric, the bulk of both groups gained about the same amount of lean and fat mass, looking at the graphs. Is it really a big deal is one person is estimated to have gained 50 grams more muscle over 7 weeks, and another 50 grams more of fat? By the same token, even the difference in fat between muffin groups isn't all that significant. Both groups got an extra 750 calories a day, but only 100-150 of those calories were responsible for the difference in the "Saturated Fat" muffin group, and the "Poly Unsaturated Fat" group. 10-15g of fat, when they estimate both groups were eating 750 fat calories before and 1000 fat calories during the study. Also, you have to keep in mind that ANY estimate of body fat and lean mass in humans is just that, an ESTIMATE. The only true way to get an accurate measurement of both is dissection, and that isn't allowed in human studies, and you can only do that once (since death of the organism is a prerequisite). Every other method has flaws, and while one method may be useful to compare results of an individual, comparing results of groups where the gain in weight is so minor has zero relevance to anything. Beyond that, it wasn't a metabolic ward study, and they don't appear to have done anything to estimate calories or fat composition of the diets of the test subjects before or during the muffin intervention period (no food diaries or anything). And, to your original point, they don't even measure SCD1.
Sounds like you do not have access to the full study text. Pufa vs sfa group: lean wt gain 1.9lbs vs 0.6lbs, fat wt gain 2.1lbs vs 3.3lbs, vfa wt gain 0.24lbs vs 0.49lbs, liver fat gain approx unchanged vs 58% gain. These differences are significant and merit explaining, I'm hoping Brad has a theory. Fat was measured by MRI. Young with bmi of 21 makes them an interesting cohort.
@@johnny7808 One other point about Body fat percentage estimates.... the "lean" part of the estimate is really everything that isn't fat, which includes muscle, bone, vital organs, and body water. So, even if the estimates in the study do accurately reflect what was going in the subjects (very dubious itself), the extra "lean" mass that it's reflecting could just be water weight, which could easily be explained by PUFA's highly inflammatory nature (as the first thing any inflamed cell does is take up extra water). So, this extra "lean" mass might not be so beneficial, even if these estimates are somewhat accurate.
For whatever reason, this is the study I’m asked about most often. I’m slowly collecting evidence to make some sort of “definitive” response. The study is interesting, no doubt. The results are totally unclear. Why should eating PUFA increase lean mass? The obvious answer is that the PUFA was stored in the muscle tissue. Is that good? Is that bad?! Time will tell?
There are a lot of other potential explanations: 1) Linoleic acid causes increases glycogen storage, leading to higher lean mass. 2) palmitic acid plus oleic acid with very low levels of stearic acid “looks like” De Novo Lipogenesis to the organism and so so palm oil reinforces some sort of feedback loop in favor of fattening I’m open to other theories about why intentionally overeating PUFA in this study caused increased lean mass in humans.
There are fat soluable vitamins. There are no carbohydrate soluable vitamins. So, yes, the Randle cycle works as it should but the only healthy way of eating long term is high fat, low/no carb...
