47 minutes - controls and metrics - good stuff there. I wanted to create a "value quotient" formula where price plays a role in the final score. Weighing features is difficult because features important to you might not matter to me etc. Good example: control being a combination of touch and spin - given some people don't play with much spin, might ignore this part. Anyway my comments here are all over the board but I've been blessed to try and use your database measurements in my videos. To that I'm grateful for your efforts and in keeping your paddle database open to use for guys like me.
@@EddieK-PB I added a 1 ounce Slyce speed cap so that’s the only reason I’m aware of that. I’m on my 3rd week now with FB + 1oz Slyce and play every day. I’d certainly be okay without any modifications but there’s a noticeable difference between stock and modified for the FB with my game play. I prefer FB + 1oz Slyce.
@@EddieK-PB The leather is pretty thin. Look at tennis-warehouse and search on leather. I wonder if the two-handed leather is enough for two paddles...
I’ve even started playing singles again with the Fat Boy. I feel I get better placement than I was with elongated paddles. It’s become my paddle of choice for all play.
John - longtime fan and viewer. I was/am in the market for a new paddle and for fun downloaded your database and averaged your new control and firepower metrics together to see what was hypothetically the "best" paddles. I was pretty shocked to see that the new Paddletek Tempest Wave Pro - C was like the second paddle on the list. I also think it is interesting that paddletek is marketing this paddle as having a layer of "glass epoxy" under the CF surface which may contribute to these high metrics. However, I see almost no noise on this paddle. On one of your future pods, I think it would be really good to have a segment where the metrics don't necessarily translate to a "best or perfect" paddle. It would be very cool if you could use the Tempest Wave Pro-C as the example and maybe explain why it does not get as much hype. I know it has a shorter handle, but is there anything else we are missing with this potential hidden gem?
With over 35 years of experience in racquetball and as a former open player, I have transitioned to pickleball and have been playing for a year and a half. During this time, I’ve owned over 10 different paddles. For doubles, I prefer using a short, square-type paddle, like the Fatboy, and currently use the OM Aero. For singles, I recently bought the Hudef Viva Pro 2 elongated paddle. However, I’m considering switching to a different elongated paddle that’s lighter than the Hudef. After playing five games of singles, my arm felt like it was going to fall off! Time to use the Johnkew database in search of paddle number 11 for my singles game, hahaha.
I have been in Vietnam( Ho Chi Minh) 2x in the last 4 months(4 weeks total). I played quite often when I was there. There are talents there. One thing they are very good at is overhead smash. It's because badminton is one of their sport they are good at 😂.
Was looking forward to this pod today after watching the Fat Boy review yesterday! I just ordered an Apollo and I’ll play with it this weekend for the first time. Coming from a gen 1 carbon fiber (Joola Vision) I’m really interested to see how it compares. Lots of changes for sure. The cool thing is at $117 I feel like even if it’s not a perfect fit for me it will be worth it to try the kevlar/widebody experience.
It took some adjusting for me to get used to the Apollo. The pop and speed at the kitchen you will immediately appreciate, it also improved my drives because I could put more power with that grit! Where I had to adjust was resets, dinks, and drives. There is no dwell time.
I picked up an Apollo recently and I agree with the hollow feel. Great all around paddle, but the hollow feel is weird. May have to pick up a Monarch Control. Many of these paddles are so affordable that you don't feel bad about picking up a few.
I had to put 3g lead weights at the 4, 8, and 12 o'clock positions on my Spartus Apollo to really dial in the power and get rid of that weird hollow feel. Now it plays like a dream!
@@sam-yausame here… I didn’t enjoy the Apollo in stock form and replicated PBStudios weight setup on the Apollo and now it feels like a dream. I have 5 inches tungsten 1g, 2inches above the throat and 4 inches 1g on top of the paddle. Total weight is around 8.9oz and feels perfectly balanced.
@@sam-yau I did the same, 3g at 4, 8 and 12 … also replaced stock grip with Wilson replacement grip … with overgrip 8.6 oz and no hollow feel … love it. Still fast hands even at 8.6 oz because starting from such low swingweight. Spin is top tier.
@@65atBestPBsame. Weight at 4, 8 and 12 and a hesacore grip and slyce speedcap and the thing plays so damn well. No problem putting the ball away and control is amazing
John … think those are called pallets … added to rectangle handle to create octagon bevels. I wish all paddles would just go to fully molded handles. I come from tennis so I haven’t really loved any paddle handle so far. I did something for the first time with the Apollo that I think I will probably do on all future paddles. I replaced the stock grip with a Wilson Cushion-Aire Classic Sponge replacement grip. The stock grip was very thin, maybe they all are. Nice improvement … with overgrip added about .3 oz. Added 3g at 4, 8, 12 … stock 8.0 oz ended up at 8.6 oz. Very good feel now … definitely does not feel thin. Surprised Apollo wasn’t the highest spin for you guys … other reviewers have it in top two on the market. I find it noticeably more spin than what I have played with including Vatic Pro Flash 16mm and 14mm, Vatic Pro Prism Flash 16mm. The Vatic Pro Flash 14mm spin is very good, so I was surprised I could notice a difference (particularly topspin lob from baseline). Quick comment on the Slyce butt cap weighting. It doesn’t make much sense to me unless it got you to a known weight/balance preference. For example, I know I like a 11.5 oz tennis racquet that is 2-4 pts headlight. If I modify a 11.5 oz racquet that is even balanced by adding weight to handle and it ends up at 12 oz 4 pts head light, that is of no use to me. I know (knew) I didn’t like 12 oz racquets regardless of balance. However … start with a 11 oz racquet, add .5 oz to handle that ends up 11.5 oz 2-4 pts head light, and then I end up at my preferred spec. btw … tennis players were known to stuff blue tac putty in handle … butt cap. If butt cap had pop off trap door didn’t even have to remove butt cap and grip. Obviously paddles aren’t racquets, and we probably can’t pin down or spec preferences like tennis racquets, so paddle mad science it is. ;)
I don't think Pickleball will ever be international especially in Latin America and Europe until the popularity of the sport of Padel declines there first.
Padel is very popular, but I think we might start to see pickleball pick up steam. The infrastructure investment is less for pickleball, as is the learning curve. Time will tell!
Enjoyed the paddle comparisons! Suprised to hear that you didn't add any weight to the Apollo in testing and comparing them to the other paddles that you mentioned you did add weight to - not really a fair fight/comparison. With the very low starting swing weight of the apollo you definitely have room for customization and possibly reducing the hollow feeling you mentioned.
John, I was wondering if you could use your data to create a "modification" type stat or ranking. Here is my simplistic example. The ratings show that power and or sweet spot are lacking in a particular paddle. Looking at stats like Swing Weight and static weight, you determine if the paddle is a candidate for adding weight. If yes, you look at what weight might do to the balance point (say if you want to put weight on above the balance point). If yes, you look at the balance point to see if there is room to add the weight without making the paddle head heavy. If yes, you look at adding weight to the handle like a Slyce. I don't know how to tie all those pieces together and I do realize customization is a personal decision but it would be helpful to know if paddles have "room or space" to be modified and I think there is a simple score that could be developed from all your data. What do you think? Sorry for the long message and thank you to you and Eddy.
I love your logic here. I wonder about these things too only then to see people add weight to just about any paddle. Add weight - oops too much here (a pinch of this, a touch of that) Add weight to a light paddle or just buy a more solid paddle to begin with ? A simple score would be nice, an accurate and fair way to get it ? tricky tricky. great comment though
Great discussion guys. I’m torn between the monarch control and all court because was weird. The control has a lot more pop than you expect but I’m thinking it might have too much pop and I’d be better off with the whole court which has less pop Gee they miss named, aren’t they? I’m coming from to Forza. I use the 16 mm then gave that in my wife and now I’m using the 14 mm with some weight on it and I’m missing the power but the pop I’m happy with.
I play with the All Court and came from Mach 2 Forza 16mm. The All Court is very nice. Solid feeling, well balanced and the fiberglass gives it some some nice pop/power, particularly compared to the Forza.
The control is good, I have not played the all court; but I'm moving to the control from my mach 2 16mm. The control is much better with the monarch control and has similar put away power and plenty of pop. The monarch supercedes the mach 2 at this point.
Hey guys, love the pod, always great info. I know myself and I’m sure others would like to know what your weight set up on the Monarch was? Also did you make any other adjustments like the Slyce Cap.
I'm enjoying 6g on either side. It's more weight then I would normally use, but the low stock swingweight gives a lot of room to play with. With the 12g total, I'm at 114 sw and a monstrous 8.4 twistweight! So far, so good. No slyce cap yet.
John, why is it that swing speed vs ball speed isn’t used in order to determine the power of pickleball paddles? Golf uses this for “smash factor” and seems to be pretty reliable, assuming an on center hit, which could easily be done in a controlled environment with a robotic arm.
oo i wonder what your take on the pickleball pursuit podcast paddle maneuverability metric that justin's been workin on. maybe close to that hand speed index.
57:13 Not sure if you have any reviews on the Owl lineup of paddles, but the fuzzy texture supposedly lends itself immensely to spin (and therefore control to some extent). It's neat to see more surface technology being explored instead of just the same old peel ply courseness that has a really limited shelf life in terms of durability. I wonder if "fuzzy" surfaces have more durability than peel ply, similar to the durability claims by Proton's NanoTac technology.
Good podcast … question for both of you … and others: Do you think paddle static weight is being discounted too much? I have been thinking the answer is probably yes … and your discussion in this episode seemed a good time to raise the question. I am thinking in particular about quick paddle positioning firefight movements at the kitchen prior to any hit on the ball. Since you brought in paddle rotations at the wrist and elbow (wow John … you are more detailed than this ex-software programmer) … let’s exclude those for my point. As an example … let’s say holding paddle in ready position at kitchen line and I have to quickly move paddle to point b before any form of hit (high balls to the left or right … say quick counter of high ball). Think a Collin Johns paddle movement before a scorpion counter. Perhaps I’m wrong, but it just seems to me there are a lot of kitchen pre-swing/hit movements that have a lot to do with static weight, and very little to do with static weight. This came up in tennis, for many the serve. Regardless of swing weight, a player still had to put the racquet full static weight in trophy position, and then go into throwing motion from there. 12 oz was too heavy for me on serve, would have risked shoulder injury. Ironically, the other place 12 oz was to heavy for me was that butt cap forward move (Sock) you mentioned. That is called racquet lag and was added to modern forehand as they shortened the backswing to deal with the increased pace of the game. fyi … that racquet lag move is more about arm rotation (internal shoulder rotation … sometimes some forearm pronation) than wrist action. There is hand/wrist extension that is released to neutral, but it’s never an active wrist snap. But my point was I ran into static weight limitations with that forehand racquet lag movement. Anyway … thought I would throw that into the discussion since you are already heading down that analysis path. btw … isn’t adding 1 oz to a paddle anywhere on the paddle to make our hands faster at the kitchen a warning sign to drink less? I would like both of you to make this case to me while we are drinking. Eddie unchained could be epic. ;) Hey Eddie … my mom’s name was Eddie … she would have liked pickleball (was a tennis player).
IMO…static weight might be more closely related to the manufacturing process of the paddles. Typically raw materials are costed in some manner of measurement usually weight and or length so companies know how much to order and the over all cost of the product. I would think the raw materials in paddles like the fiber cloth for the face and basically corrugated plastic for the core would each be measured in weight and or length. These measurements would also be used for calculating shipping cost of finished goods in or outside the country. So maybe at one point in time a paddle company thought using a measurement would be a marketing tactic? I’m not sure if there’s a significant difference but most paddles typically weigh in at about 8 ounces. This is only my opinion.
@@mooremathewj I was talking about playing weight … what weight metrics we think is important to our performance/preferences. We buy and customize with added lead/tungsten accordingly. The top paddle reviewers have identified swing weight as a key metric … which has been an important metric to higher level tennis players for years. But those same tennis players care about static weight, and balance (head light vs head heavy). Here I was simply raising the question if the top paddle reviewers have gone too far discounting static weight. I guess Chris Olson started the paddle swing weight focus (sorry if that is not correct), and now we have brother Farmer Lanky repeating like a parrot (sometimes next to a cow … I love the cows) that he DOES NOT CARE ABOUT STATIC WEIGHT. ;) Well maybe he should with those skinny arms. ;).
@@65atBestPB I really do not know what the importance of the overall weight of a paddle is. I look at the paddle market and it would appear to me that the average weight is 8 ounces for a paddle.
Hey John, what were your thoughts on the Jellybean? Also regarding your control score. What would you say is the maximum percentile for pop before it starts noticeably affecting control? 60% percent?
Good question - I think of it less in terms of a threshold where suddenly you notice your control is suffering, and more of a gradient, where 10% one way or another probably wont make much of a difference. People's tolerance to pop also probably varies based on their play style and proficiency.
@@johnkewpickleball makes total sense now. I went from a prism flash which is in the low 10% to a neonic flow which is like 40% and I didn’t understand what everyone was saying about how controllable it is. I ended up returning it and going for a Jellybean instead based on your data it might be what I’m looking for
Hey John I've got a question for you . What did you think of the a11n c8? You can't beat their pricing and I think for most players up to the 4.0 they could definitely use that control. And it seems based on all the metrics of some reviewers, it has the lowest swing weight of the group. And the most control.. thoughts?
On the very first version of the C8, as it was play gen 1 style paddle. On the new reiteration of that paddle it's closer to normal now. I actually shaved down the end cap and put a hesa core grip with a thin over grip. And honestly most people could stand to use a little bit bigger and grip anyway, as this would eliminate a lot of the tennis elbow experience.. other than that did you like it?
Well hey John we share the same birthday. The tech that analyzes play to give you your rating would a great perk for clubs to have. Wide body honorable mention might be the PLAYERS rogue2Q. NON-KEVLAR. John does viscosity/density of the epoxy have make more of a difference than the weight or "weave" of the peel ply?
