Is USA Pickleball in BIG trouble? w/ Jill Braverman

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What happens when a former Challenger Level MVP enters the league mid-season? Jill Braverman shares the scramble prior to last week's Wavier Period and more.
➡️ Details emerge on the JOOLA vs USA Pickleball lawsuit
➡️ Jill shares the reason she decided to rejoin MLP
➡️ Will equipment sales follow the same pattern as golf?
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0:00 Going deep in the JOOLA vs USA Pickleball suit
4:46 What happened to Ronbus and Vatic?
7:55 What should USAP have done?
9:36 Liability insurance in place?
10:35 The Prolite Apex paddle
13:05 Explaining the violation of rule 2.E.6.F
15:19 Why is the GearBox Pro still allowed?
18:17 Zane taking paddles to lab
20:10 Is the advantage that severe?
23:30 The timing of UPA-A entering the certification space
30:06 Focusing paddle performance instead of materials
32:16 Return of the challenge and preventative fines
34:35 Can player contracts help protect against fines?
38:08 Multi-level classification could be offered
40:54 Are paddle sales demonstrably down?
46:47 The Fab 5 Debacle
54:22 Behind the scenes of the crazy waiver shuffle
52:35 Is it necessary to makes moves?
57:42 Challenger players level will move to free agency after this year
1:01:29 What does MLP feel like?
1:04:45 Why did you hold out?

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Опубликовано:

26 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 94

@TheDinkPickleball 28 дней назад

Stay hydrated all summer long with CorVive Hydrate. 🍋Try the pink lemonade flavor and save 30% with code PICKLE corvive.com/products/hydrate

@mozart5575 28 дней назад

How will pickleball ever make it to the Olympics if we can't figure this out about the standards of paddles?

@susinmd 24 дня назад

Yes, Orlando Squeeze 2023 MLP was awesome! Cheering in person for the Squeeze at MLP Atlanta was electric!

@B4inSF 28 дней назад

As a viewer..I thought Atlanta MLP was a downer...but DC was absolute fire..great tournament.

@EddieDBama 28 дней назад

Great pod. I have to say I love Jill more as a guest than her show, but adding her to the Picklepod was awesome.

@gabeanderson8816 28 дней назад

Actually, agree. I can’t even listen to her pod. But she did great on this one.

@jillybpickleball 27 дней назад

@@gabeanderson8816 lol love it

@gabeanderson8816 26 дней назад

@@jillybpickleball no shade! I enjoyed this one ✌🏼

@JonasHoldemanLitChannel 28 дней назад

Zane, let me start by saying I’m a huge fan of yours, both as a player and a clinician. However, your argument about the Joola GEN 3 paddle being acceptable only in the hands of 50, 60, and 70-year-old women is silly. It’s all relative, yes? I mean, if Gam-Gam and her playing group of AARP+++ members have the collective put away power of a malnourished kitten, as soon as one of them gets a Magnus, she’s going to hospitalize everybody in her group. So if playing pros, all of whom are at a similar strength, skill, and reaction time level, have access to G3 paddles, how is the playing field less level than with Gam Gam and her group? Just sayin’ . . .

@Billy4242 23 дня назад

If everyone played with a tennis racket, the playing field would be “even” as well, or if all players played blindfolded. Something being “even” doesn’t make it good for the playing or viewing experience. Finding the right balance of fairness is important. The game would not be fun to watch or play if the primary goal of shots was to hit it as hard as you can at your opponent, knowing the paddle is too hot for them to move out of the way. Variety of skill expression and play style make the game the most fun.

@DannyBPlays 28 дней назад

I predicted this on another podcast video a few weeks ago! That USAP didn't think the Gen3 would cause as much controversy but changed their mind when they saw the uproar. Obviously I'm not the only one to have guessed this but it makes the most sense. So yeah, Joola will probably win the case because they were told the paddle was good so Joola invest likely millions and will lose maybe millions with the delisting/refunds

@ScottT109 27 дней назад

Yeah joola will win this. Precedence was set with the original approval. However damages paid joola will likely only amount to the equivalent of the value of the 150k paddles they already produced plus whatever their forecasted sales of the model would have been for the time it wasn’t on the market for sale to consumers. End of the day it’s ridiculous bc if amateurs want to use them and pay the insane prices for the ‘hot’ paddles let them.

@joshualeber119 24 дня назад

@@ScottT109 thats still over 50 million. Plus a vaild argument for damage to the brand and a % of loss sales. easy 100 million if Joola wins. That's probly more then enough to fold uspa once or twice.

@Mr.DJones 28 дней назад

Strategy IMO: JOOLA confides in PPA that they will file a huge lawsuit against USAP (a few months ago). PPA was going to create UPA sometime in the future. PPA now moves up the timeline and institutes UPA (abracadabra, everyone was surprised about UPA) right before JOOLA lawsuit as, if JOOLA wins, USAP could possibly go bankrupt or lose its hold on being the governing body for pickleball and UPA now becomes the said body as they are now established. I love conspiracy theories. :)

@jillybpickleball 28 дней назад

😅 love this

@obospieler 27 дней назад

I’m not normally a conspiracy theorist. But this kinda tracks

@danr9659 23 дня назад

No chance this was JOOLA's plan all along if they knew for sure UPA was coming soon. Why even bother with USAP certification at that point? JOOLA could've just circumvented USAP with zero chance of repercussions.

@Mr.DJones 23 дня назад

@@danr9659@ danr9659 I never said it was JOOLA's plan, things just fell into place for PPA. JOOLA, IMO, got screwed. But JOOLA is one of the paddle companies on the UPA board.

@PickleballTodayCanada 27 дней назад

Thanks guys and Jilly B. There is so much too this. I like the idea of settling / approval and an 18 month window. However, as paddles "break in" I see the issue as not too difficult to deal with at the pro level, but really no idea how it can be dealt with an amateur level.

@philmeyer2367 28 дней назад

Should paddles have serial #'s that can be tracked for testing?

@davegtigard 27 дней назад

I don't think that paddle manufacturers should determine how the game is played. They are supposed to provide the equipment to play the game. This is a case of the tail wagging the dog. USAP made a mistake when they made their standards based on the materials the paddle is made from. Engineers simply figured out how to make the paddles hotter by engineering using those materials (this is what Gearbox did and their paddles passed). What should have happened is the paddles performance is what should be tested. So we would allow a ball to come off the paddle at a certain exit velocity and a certain number of RPM's. We should not care what the paddle is made of. I believe this is the approach that UPA is going to use according to Jason Aspes. I hope he is successful. Further I hope that the regulations that go along with that has real drastic consequences for exceeding those limits. I also think that production paddles should be tested after a period of use to see if they exceed the standards with similar sanctions. Let's get back to playing pickleball. I want to see the best players demonstrate their skill not some less skilled player win because he had fancier equipment that gives him a advantage. I want talent to mean something.

@downwinder3 28 дней назад

It's funny to hear other people say Andre's punishment was too harsh.... and Andre is not saying that at all

@chriscatastrophe660 28 дней назад

I thought the gearbox was a dumb thing to complain about , but a lot of the people that have had these paddles for awhile you are really starting to see some strange things . It feels like the ball picks up speed mid air . LOL. It’s hard to explain but it just plays different .

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

Free market capitalism should determine which paddle brands succeed and fail. Claiming USAP has too many paddles to test, is a joke/cop out. Zane, how would you feel if billionaires starting throwing up hundreds of thousand of dollars worth of random barriers to all of your small business/entrepreneurial pursuits. All new technologies/products initially have a gazillion entrants/competitors in the market, the product/ technology then follows a traditional "new product" marketing curve which may last several years, then in the end there will be a dozen or so brand survivors, as determined by our free market capital system. What gives you the right to talk about hundreds of small businesses/family businesses, as they don't have a right to exist, to pursue the American dream, to support their families?

@trumpisastump9382 28 дней назад

Perhaps there should be different paddle standards for the professionals as their situation is much different and unique. The power of the current paddles may well be a bigger issue for them as opposed to the rec player.

@missdayna 24 дня назад

Fun fact, in the medical/supplement field, “proprietary blend” literally means ANYTHING. Like supplements that say a proprietary blend can literally have the worst things in it, or nothing at all. So I believe the same thing is going on now in the pickleball world with paddles. We need to get rid of the option to have a “Proprietary Blend” of materials. We almost need a full blown “ingredient list” for the material of the paddles 😂

@user-gn2mm2vh9i 27 дней назад

Where’s the accountability on the Submitter’s side ? The designer/manufacturer shall be submitting a paddle that they certify in advance that is compliant with the requirements? In this case , by design , Joola submitted a non-compliant paddle. Only after tear down was it verifiable that they designed in the violation. The de-listing was handled poorly I agree, but the stage was set for a conflict by JOOLA’S design.

@800over 27 дней назад

Exactly, they tried to get a paddle approved that snuck by for a whle but once they are caught they cry foul.

@B4inSF 28 дней назад

oh boy! What will Jill Braverman say today??🙀

@jillybpickleball 28 дней назад

😮

@goldenchildtheater 21 день назад

Who cares lol

@trumpisastump9382 28 дней назад

The competition and innovation that is provided by these smaller paddle companies is invaluable to the sport. It helps to keep prices down and allows for great selection for players.

@Gary-W 28 дней назад

It might be Proton that has been given 18 months Jill mentioned by USAPA on their series 1 paddle... Hmm maybe that is also why it has been soldout forever.. Their other series paddles and their new series 4 coming out are NOT that nano-tech surface.. Who knows..😊

@harryhoople1684 27 дней назад

Don't forget about the note in USAP's Equipment Standards Manual: Note: USA Pickleball reviews equipment testing standards periodically and, with proper notification to manufacturers, reserves the right to modify equipment specifications as needed to maintain the integrity of the game.

@WhitePillMan 25 дней назад

Playing against Gen3 Joola didn’t seem too hot. It was just insanely difficult to judge the speed of the ball off of half-swings that would fly at me from the trampoline effect. Power isn’t the only problem.

@800over 28 дней назад

14 mins in when they talk about the approval process and the time to block the paddles was in the fall....that assumes that Joola in good faith was creating paddles that did not break the rules. They new the paddles had a trampoline affect and hoped that USAP didn't tear down the paddles which they obviously did not. But either way the paddles break the rules.....Joola cannot complain that the reason they have a claim is that the cheating was only discovered now. Can you imagine a student whose teacher halfway through the year now has access to a program that can detect AI created essays and says you cannot give me an F for cheating because you already gave m e an A!

@padflash 26 дней назад

You have a point, but 1) the PPE exists, proving that trampolining to a degree is acceptable (also, the trampoline effect exists on every paddle in some way depending on the stiffness of the face materials, layers, and core materials; 2) the Joola Alphas that are still approved that Fed, Tyson, and Dekel are currently using in PPA events still have that trampoline effect and are USAP approved. But as others have mentioned, it's likely that USAP made a 180 on the Gen 3s after Joola sold so many of them and players complained.

@lancealexander4664 26 дней назад

Random player: “Did you read the Joola lawsuit?” Guy who runs a media company: “I didn’t know court records were public documents.” The people at The Dink are in way over their head whenever they have to cover hard news.

@ginnyk891 28 дней назад

I really pray the Six Zero manufacturers survive. I switched 4 months ago to th DBD after trying many of the name brands you said would survive. I feel I got the best paddle for my game at reasonable price.

@johnsanchez2589 28 дней назад

I like how the list of paddles companies that might survive are the paddle companies that part of UPA-A’s advisory board. Can you say Shill!!!!

@jillybpickleball 27 дней назад

That's really funny b/c I didn't examine who was on UPA'A's advisory council! This was just my guess (and Gamma def isn't on the advisory council). I think UPA just added a few small companies too b/c they got some serious flack that it was only big brands.

@ryankeirns345 28 дней назад

Didn't know Julian Arnold was using a new Paddletek paddle.

@123BV8 28 дней назад

So buy the gearbox, but pros are whining because they want sponsorship money and benefits and are locked into old technology! Jill you have podcast after podcast finding the hottest paddle, switching from one to another.

@jillybpickleball 28 дней назад

Love it! I had a choice and I chose Gamma ❤

@harryhoople1684 27 дней назад

As for the $200M in damages asked for in the Joola lawsuit - forget it!. In the latest form 990 filing USAP had $2.6M in revenue and $400K in net assets.

@mlefebvre007 24 дня назад

First rule of lawsuits is to always start high since the courts can and will lower the number but can't raise it

@lonkrantz2038 27 дней назад

Engage had a similar issue before the Pro Lite

@jasonhart7847 28 дней назад

Jill is a great guest, but she’s fast and loose with the truth. “Paddles sales are down demonstrably” what? You have proof of that?

@trumpisastump9382 28 дней назад

The two gentlemen have had multiple previous videos on the Joola situation and they never bothered to read the allegations in the lawsuit????

@lonkrantz2038 27 дней назад

Exactly. They are journalists, just a couple of guys talking about pickleball.

@wafarris 28 дней назад

Big box retailers sell crap paddles in general. There may very well be just a few and declining number of manufacturers that sell in that kind of retail space. I hope the Vatic, Honolulu, and other mostly online brands that sell reasonably priced but good paddles continue to exist. I think they will.

@tonym753 28 дней назад

Hot paddles give the player an advantage so of course they are gonna sell. There is no way to retaliate against them with a gen 2 or below paddle so of course everyone is going to have to get a gen 3. Pickleball has changed forever and there’s nothing that can be done to stop it at the rec level

@mattmershon3542 27 дней назад

Do any of the governing agencies have a robot? Is there robot testing? If not get a robot and come up with speed and spin parameters. Isn’t that basically what golf does? Shouldn’t be this big of an issue Figure it out peeps!

@edwardlacalifornia9634 27 дней назад

Joola is going above and beyond the limits of the pickleball game Have Joola start a new program and call it “Smash Ball” There are limits to each games MLB, NBA, NFL, Tennis, Soccer, Volleyball . . . As to the limits in the Gear and Balls, There has to be a limit in Pickleball as well. How mush (“fast”) is too much (too fast)

@roman2011 27 дней назад

What makes pickleball a fun sports are the people, public courts, and quiet paddles. Everything else is annoyingly unnecessary like noise and fees.

@user-gn2mm2vh9i 27 дней назад

At the 4.0 Rec level, I prefer holding the “hotness” at the Gen 2 level. Gen3 level paddles shorten the rallies. Both due to out of bounds balls as well as defeated reaction times/ body tags. It’s not so much whether the Gen3 players have a slight advantage or not, the paddles depress the fun that was in the game due to the difficulty of putting the ball away when 4 strong players are on the court.

@TheSourcingSamurai 28 дней назад

They are in big trouble and it will bankrupt them if they don't get out of big trouble.

@Mr.DJones 28 дней назад

IMO, the first MLP this year was a joke! It wasn't even a glorified PPA, other than the MLP format, it had zero qualities of previous MLPs. Horrible video quality, only two cameras on the championship court (the first MLP in Mesa AZ had 11 cameras [I counted] on CC), no challenges, no replays. Just a joke, the second one was better, but nothing like the original MLPs. Agree, that PPA is trying to kill MLP. When PPA fired Steve Kuhn, pickleball took 10 steps backward and will never recover as no one else has had any innovation for the sport.

@ajones68 28 дней назад

As a rec player. We hate gen 3 joolas

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

You hate Gen 3 Joola paddles, "we" don't

@trumpisastump9382 28 дней назад

You may "hate" the gen 3 paddles, but I love them. Have no problem playing against them or using them. Sorry if a wiffleball scares you.

@ajones68 27 дней назад

@@trumpisastump9382 if you can generate power on your own, I understand

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

Bye bye USAP! Poor/irresponsible leadership! Poorly run! Non Responsive! Zero transparency! It was just a matter of time! They have zero chance of winning this lawsuit! They are toast!

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

Why are the pros such babies, I'm 65 and regularly compete against highly skilled 19+ players with power paddles, including Joola Gen 3? Wear protective eyewear, body bagging is an exciting and unique part of our game, this isn't tennis! It's embarrassing that our pros are afraid of a little whiffle ball. Let the game and the paddle technology continue to evolve!

@svenjorgensonjorgenson709 28 дней назад

There is a 90% chance you’re a 3.0.

@justinn4787 28 дней назад

@@svenjorgensonjorgenson709agree

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

@@svenjorgensonjorgenson709 Nice, another aegist! You're wrong, I earned my way, I enjoy the competition, and my younger competitors(19 to 65) do as well! I never said I win every game. Not only are they talented, but they're welcoming, respectful, and embody what the true spirit of what athletic competition and pickleball is all about, you sir do not!

@svenjorgensonjorgenson709 28 дней назад

@@WisdomInsightReality the fact that you think your age has anything to do with my comment makes me now 100% you are a 3.0.

@sheldonkramer3905 28 дней назад

If they wore safety glasses, which I do, what's the worst that can happen? Yet it is not cool to wear eye protection or drop serve. Egos.

@harryhoople1684 27 дней назад

Stop being so naive! Jilly B read the Complaint and accepted everything alleged at face value. You've only got ONE SIDE OF THE STORY. Early in July USAP will file a Response and address every one of the assertions in the Complaint. Use some logic - it's almost certain Joola raised the same issues in the Complaint in a meeting with USAP before filing the lawsuit. USAP had a chance at that time to fold and re-certify the paddles. They didn't. Which means USAP has a strong defense. Let's wait to hear from USAP.

@jillybpickleball 27 дней назад

I agree--this is only ONE side of the story. I tried to say "if these allegations are true" then "X may follow". Two sides to every story...but why not give JOOLA the 18 month window to de-list? That isn't made clear anywhere, including in the complaint.

@harryhoople1684 26 дней назад

@@jillybpickleball The Complaint, of course, is written by Joola and they have no incentive to explain why the 18 month notice was not given. The 18 month notice is only applicable to paddles that were previously legally certified. Since Joola admitted they submitted the wrong paddles for certification the paddles were never legally certified and, therefore, Joola was ineligible for the 18 month grace period. USAP has been silent since the lawsuit was initiated probably on advice of counsel. The docket sheet has a summons requiring USAP to respond early in July. "Summons Issued 21 days as to USA Pickleball Association. (ols, Deputy Clerk) (Entered: 06/13/2024)" You are correct to speculate that there are other paddles under the 18 month grace period. Supposedly, the 18 month period is to allow manufacturers time to clear up manufacturing problems. In reality it's a time for manufacturers to sell their existing stock of illegal paddles to unsuspecting consumers. Hence, USAP will never release a list of paddles using the 18 month grace period. (Gearbox, Proton?)

@fishinfever3577 27 дней назад

Why can’t paddle companies or should I say if I was a smaller paddle company just advertise your paddles for rec play and didn’t worry about USA pickleball etc. Rec players is where you make all your money and sell the most paddles. Screw USA pickleball or any paddle regulation company. 🤷‍♂️

@donnacollins6698 9 дней назад

I know! Who has $50k

@donnacollins6698 9 дней назад

I mean, he does have the money but any other player, do they? Idk?

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

OMG guys, if a Gearbox Pro is such an advantage, and it's approved, just use the frigging thing. Otherwise, please stop your childish whining, and please stop insinuating your losses are due to paddle technology, and not your poor play! Do you guys even hear yourselves? It's embarrassing, it's horrible! You guys are one of the biggest risk factors, as to whether pro pickleball fails or succeeds. Right now pro pickleball is struggling to get viewership, and is on a trajectory to be a big fail! I have a unique idea, how about you guys choose an approved paddle, and play pickleball, your primary job! By the way, Joola will destroy USAP in this $200,000,000.00 lawsuit, so you'll soon be able to choose amongst a wide range of colourful Joola Gen 3 paddles as well!

@trumpisastump9382 28 дней назад

No advantage to a particular paddle as they are available for purchase to everyone. If you think Gen 3'a give an advantage, then buy one and stop crying.

@800over 27 дней назад

not if it makes the sport less inviting or playable. There are lots of people who do not want to get involved in firefights with some of these paddles that hit harder. You can say that it is fine for you but where is the line....can paddles get powerful enough for 80mph serves? Is that ok? There are no hands battles if you can hit the ball so hard that your reaction time is overridden.

@Billy4242 23 дня назад

It not about advantage. It is about the sport losing skill expression and becoming one dimensional. Pickleball won’t be fun to play or watch, if the paddles are so hot that the primary goal is to hit it as hard as you can at your opponent, knowing they can’t dodge it and leave it out.

@WisdomInsightReality 28 дней назад

Jill, please come up with a new name, you five ladies are good players, but you're definitely not the Fab Five, it's very misleading.