When the tail wheel touches the ground, bury the stick in your stomach. Pin that tail wheel to the ground (Drag the Tail - hence Taildragger) until the plane is stopped on the apron. Doing so applies aerodynamic download on the tail wheel, and increases its rolling resistance, keeping you straight without having to peddle on the rudder so much. Thanks for sharing mate, I am glad your lovely machine was ok. (nice approach BTW)
Ive got about 500 hours on tail draggers A number of things ive learned about landing tails 1. The landing is never over until the aircraft is locked in the hangar😊 2.you either land slower in the 3 point landing attitude (heavily depending on the wind speed and direction) or you wheel it on and gently allow the tail.to come down as you slow 3 at any stage you start to lose rudder control you must power up and either go around or if you have enough runway power up to regain control and then again allow the tail to slow come down. 4.also trying to land a biplane(tigermoth as example)in a heavy crosswind is a recipe for disaster But hey what would i know 25 years as a professional pilot and 10000+ hours Oh and no crash here For all tail wheel flyers There are those that have ground looped and those that will That wasnt a crash it was a very mild groundloop with no real consequences other than a slightly bruised ego Weve all been there and if you havent you will to varying degrees
Loved the steep approach, I was taught this way by an old pilot "always be within gliding distance of the runway when in the circuit". Sadly I rarely see nice steep approaches like this. I used to own/fly an emeraude G-ARDD. Lovely aircraft and I had a lot of fun in her.
He did not pull back the stick to maximum after groundcontact, an he holds the stick like a pencil. 20 years ago happend to me on a Supercap. Same mistakes. The landing ends with the stop of the plane. Thats a rule......
It happens. You have to dance a lot with taildraggers, keep the feet moving - especially light ones, they don't stop flying until they've stopped moving and even then you can't be 100% sure! My father learnt on taildraggers and flew many types that were, including a Kit Fox. Well done you for posting such - brave. I'm so glad that you got away with it and "learnt about flying from that".
Two kinds of taildragger pilots. Those that have and those that will. MY ground loop was in a 46 champ after tail wheel shimmy tossed both steering springs. Heel brakes kept me straight ALMOST long enough. Dropped my guard half a second and the rodeo started.😳 FORTUNATELY there was no damage to anything but my pride.😖
No crash, just a ground loop. Wind appears to be from the left, but I never saw him put his aileron into it so he landed with a drift. Can't tell what he was doing with the rudder, but from the sound of the tailwheel hopping I am guessing he was too slow on the rudder input as well. One other technique he never used was adding some throttle to correct his turn to the left. Pressing the right rudder peddle and giving the plane a burst of throttle would have put prop wash over the rudder and given it more authority and better directional control. He landed like a tricycle gear pilot does, he relaxed as soon as the gear was on the ground. You fly a taildragger all the way to the tie down ropes.
Any chance you might be willing to let me use this clip in a video? I am making a video about ground loops and I could use a clip like this. I'd give credit to you in the description
What was he doing with the stick? You can’t leave it neutral. Pull it back into your stomach so the tailwheel is planted, then stay active on the rudder pedals all the way to the moment you’re stopped.
If you look at the right seat rudder pedals you can see he is riding the left rudder. just before he touches down you can see the small reflection of the rudders on the right. You can see he is left foot heavy. At 1:15 you can barely see his left rudder input is slightly higher than right. Then again you can see a shimmer of the medal rudder pedal at 1:20. Place your cursor on that spot, and look at his knees. From there you can see his leg work and see he never quite fully deployed right rudder enough to compensate for his left drift until it was too late. He did input some right foot briefly and straightened the nose on the main wheels, but as soon as the tail dropped and the rudder became less effective, he let the left foot come up again until he looped. What I didn't really see was ANY real x wind correction with his stick work. At least from what we can see. Regardless, no big deal other than maybe hi ego, and the plane probably when on to fly again!!!
he had a really long time to deal with that ground loop and just didnt.... did that in a chief on my first paved runway landing thing headed left as soon as the tail touched shoved in the throttle and hit right rudder brought her back straight then settled the mains and let her come back down straight and rolled the speed off till the tail sank. then kept the stick back. saved my ass! otherwise we would have been in the back door of the local FBO. no 3 point landing that day !
I've been in the weeds a few times due to crosswind challenges. Good learning experience. Looks like you tried to wheel land it. Lots of energy left when you do that. This means More energy to damage things. Wheel landings are fun to do but not necessary. Three point full stall landings guarantee minimum energy at touchdown. Also, the transition from two point two three point can be tricky. Lastly, keep that downwind wing down more and more when you roll out. Should be all the way by the time you stop.
Yeah, I've long flown with lightweight flexable running or walking shoes. I prefer mesh top and side New Balance sneakers as they bend easily. The majority of my flying is in Lazairs where you have to be on the pedals way more than a Kitfox. With clunky boots or stiff shoes you could easily loose it as it's harder to dance on the pedals at those critical moments. Glad to hear damage was limited !
To all asking about stick control on the ground. Untill the aircraft slows sufficiently the ailerons are effective. Once the tail wheel is firmly planted then it is rudder pedals only. None of us watching know what the winds were doing and on a light aircraft such as the Kit Fox..even a light breeze plays a part.
Unstabilized approach, high and hot, touch down needed to be a lot further down the runway with a slower air/groundspeed. Its a tail dragger and you are still 'landing' those until you come to a complete standstill. You were lucky and got away with this one. Good that you put it up on Utube:)
Lots of grass around there.. I think I would opt for the grass especially if you have stock narrow gear. But you are ok and your plane was driven away.. all good
Right rudder, RIGHT RUDDER! Ehhh, that wasn't a crash, just a technicality. Kitfoxes are tough as nails and just so fun to fly. I've personally witnessed a Kitfox bipe shed a prop blade seconds after rotation, do an immediate 180 and land downwind with a thud. Very bad recovery practice considering the pilot still had 500' of runway to his disposal but, aircraft was unscathed. Truly a badass little bird. Congrats on your build. If not homebuilt, congrats still on a solid purchase.
Taildraggers need massive amounts of small tap dancing on the rudders while waiting for the tail to come down. The idea is to prevent a ground loop from too much rudder in one direction. Once tail is down, full back stick and keep dancing. Even worse in x winds.
@@stephenraustin Some aircraft just won't 3 point. I flew a type in which the main wing reached the stall angle when it reached the 3 point attitude. I found the active rudder movements were the only way to keep it straight on the ground. It always had to be wheeled on. But whether u 3 point or wheel on, rudder activity is the key.
I tax to apron and check for damage, but I was able to start at same day, thanks to big gear and big wheels. Nobody had seen the loop, because the runway is higher than apron, doesn't matter :-). The controller said nothing during payment, I think, he had not seen anything, too.
Airspeed is nearly bled off when the tail starts to move right. So, comments about landing too fast are wrong. Once tail begins to move laterally, the CG begins to move from where it should be, between and rear of mains, to forward and to one side of mains. Aircraft then pirouettes on the mains because CG is moving out front of the mains and to one side. This forward CG swings the tail opposite of where the CG has moved in the front. So, in this G-loop, the CG is moving forward of the mains in counter clockwise motion, to the left. The CG pulls the tail around with the mains as center of fulcrum, getting up on one leg as CG actually moves up as loop speed increases. Like an ice skater increasing spin by moving arms up. Stick is not back, can't see the rudder movement. Thinking need to keep full back on stick, right rudder, neutral ailerons. Keep working the rudder to keep the CG centered and aft of the mains. Nice video, good teacher.
Any landing you can walk away from is a fantastic landing. 2 types of tail dragger pilots - those that have and those that still going to. Same applies to stock cars and race cars but about the wall.
Tailwheel pilot here as well, just a casual observation, the pilot was still at flying speed at touchdown, which is fine for a wheel landing, but if you do a wheel landing, the stick goes forward to stick the landing Anna keep the plane on the asphalt Also, it seemed that you were already headed to the weeds to the left instead of keeping it straight I know it sounds like a criticism, but it’s just an observation. I’m sure I’ll ground loop mine at some point…. We all do
If I were coaching from the right seat, I would say "looks like we are crabbed into a light left crosswind. Are you going to wheel land or 3 point? Is our current speed appropriate for that choice? Which stick position will you be expecting at touchdown, and which way is the stick likely going to move after touchdown? Which side are you expecting to put in most of your rudder correction, and how will you command those corrections? Lets keep our plan in mind, and agree that if the plan execution doesn't look good at 1 foot, we will just go around and try again." Good on the pilot for agreeing to post this for others to learn from.
This is why I like doing 3 point landings on tail draggers. Airplane is stalled, not much speed on touchdown, more predictable than lowering the tail after landing. :) Thank you for posting the video.
I had problems landing my Kitfox model 4 and discovered that the factory gear was warped - toed-in quite a bit. It was really a handful. I switched for a Grove landing gear and it was like having Autoland installed. Looks like you have the spring gear, though.
Wouldn’t be the first tail dragger doing a quick 360 after what looked like a pretty nice touchdown Remember: rudder is your best friend in these - whilst a tricycle undercarriage in like a Cessna172 forgives lazy feet, a tail dragger will teach you what your feet are there for 👍🏻😊
I have owned a J3 Cub for almost two years. At first I would fly it only on dead calm days, but with more practice, I have flown it in some fairly high winds, like gusting to 16 knots. I usually do wheel landings, I believe you have more control and can see the runway better. The trouble comes in the transition to tail wheel down, things can get out of hand if you aren't very careful. My Cub has tried to exit the runway before I wanted to a few times but I kept it on. I have made at least one go around where if I had not, I would have taken out a runway light. I don't know about Kit Foxes, that looked pretty hairy and the wind didn't look that bad. Hope you didn't do any damage, keep at it don't let the plane fly you.
Not a bad loop, and I see the wing didn't hit the ground. Good on you. It's easy to do. I built a Kitox IV-1200, and the factory gear, aside from being too narrow and with the extremely tight bungees, had NO damping effect except the tires. Turns out it was also warped from the factory and was severely toed-in. I ground-looped it one time, and after checking the toe-in, decided to buy a Grove gear. It was much wider and had 5-6 inches of "give." After flying the original gear, it seemed like it had auto-land. Consider that, and your life will be good.
My right wing hit the ground, I had a scratch at wingtip but it was easy to fix. I fly only grove gear, yesterday I flew the factory gear first time with another Kitfox - yes, it is narrow than grove :-)
OK - thanks. My mistake. The best advice I ever received was that you land a taildragger exactly like a nosewheel. On both, you fix any tendency to turn sideways immediately. On the nosewheel, it won't ground loop you if you get out of configuration, which is why nosewheel pilots are often not careful about it and it transfers to their tailwheel flying. In any event, nice airplane and video. Enjoy!
The reason for that is the little space between pedal and brakes (Kitfox III) - I had touched the brakes during pedaling. Now I fly with small shoes like sneakers only :-)
That's always been a problem with "Tail Draggers". Back in the 70's I was sitting as a "guest co-pilot" with a guy I knew. He was flying a quick run from Cleveland Hopkins Airport to Detroit to pick up a much needed part for the Ford Plant in Cleveland. The plant was right next to the airport in Cleveland and he asked me if I wanted to come along for the ride. The plane was a old Beach. Kinda like the one used in the movie Casablanca. I had my instrument rating and multi engine and was glad to tag along. He let me fly it once we got air born. The plan was to do a "hot turn" on the ground in Detroit and head right back to Cleveland. When we arrived they were waiting for us. We didn't even get out of our seats. We just pulled up, they loaded the plane, some papers were signed, and we left with the part. When we contacted approach control for Cleveland Hopkins Airport, he let me continue to fly the aircraft and follow the air traffic control orders and he handled the radio. On final he asked me if I wanted to land it. I quickly said NO, but did take it down right to the ground where he took over. I am sure I would've spun that thing if left on my own.
I currently have a KF4 Classic. Hard to tell what caused this guy to appear to land centerline then veer off left. The only thing I noticed was the stick wasn't pulled all the way back and maintaining directional control with the tailwheel would have been impossible.He seems to be moving the stick everywhere but hard back in the video. Glad the planes ok.
You could almost see it right away when he landed. He was not coordinated and lacked rudder input to keep the aircraft center. Brakes can assist in eliminating the start of a ground loop but you must be quick and those models with heel brakes make it even more challenging. Ah well, lessons learned and both likely went on to fly again.
Constructive criticism from an aged tail wheel pilot. Look at your airspeed as you cross the numbers and the resultant float once over the runway. Your final approach is flown to fast, to high for such a light and sensitive airplane. Tighten up your pattern, keep your airspeed at stall plus 10%. Once the mains touch, keep the ailerons and rudder into the wind if you’re in a crosswind ... no matter how slight.
I have to disagree. Stall plus 10% will likely stall you when turning base and final in an accelerated stall.1.30Vso is recommended on final approach. 1.4Vso before final approach.
Kit fox is prone to ground loops,, proper stick input was not applied and rudder and brakes must be very closely monitored to hopefully stop a ground loop in any aircraft especially a Kitfox. Glad that there didn’t appear to be any damage to the aircraft.
I've flown Kit foxes for years, they are are tricky in a cross wind landings. Same as you, a friend of mine here had his Mk IV wings damaged when his local instructor ground looped his Kitfox on landing. As so many others do, the instructor underestimated the Kitfox.
I could not keep my eyes off the way he is holding the throttle like a potato. I was taught from beginning to keep the forefinger on the throttle shaft at the firewall. Then you can feel even slight movements. That was wierd.
Been there done that. You can say what you want about the design but that is the way they were built. Mine was not enough hours on the stick. I ground looped a citabria not fun. If you are proficient in a tail dragger you have my respect. Better bush planes. I miss flying so damn expensive.
Mark M why point out the obvious in a matter-O-fact” tone like a stuck up dickweed? We know what happened and most importantly so does he. Posting just to be a jerk makes you look like an ass...
The landing is not complete with any tail dragger until the aircraft is in the hangar and youve gone home C185 are the biggest handfull ive experienced A tricycle undercart pretty much lands its self You can never lose concentration for a second landing a tailwheel especially in a xwind
Richard Bach of “Jonathon Livingston Seagull” fame. Flew late 1950 Jet aircraft, etc. If my memory is correct, he bought a taildragger after leaving military service... and ground looped his first landing. So...you’re in good aviation company. I’ve flown a couple of larger taildragger airplanes with lockable tail wheels. They worked great. But I can’t honestly say I know about their disadvantages in small airplanes. There must be some or they all would have lockable tail wheels. Any one who knows, please enlighten me.
keep it on the mains until the speed as deteriorated, then stick all the way back and on tarmac small rudder inputs... if tail draggers were easy... we'd all fly tricycle....
HeHe anyone else happen to notice that every time you get the chance to actually see the pilots face while an actual Ground Loop is occurring to them their always so cool looking about it. Watch the video again and when the Ground Loop starts keep your eyes on the pilot and his reaction to everything taking place. He is all cool like any other day with a normal 3 point landing. Anytime you hear the old Kangaroo hop you know it's a do over nothing wrong keeping your hand on the throttle for another go around. LOL don't hate me people I'm not a pilot. I'm merely learning right now and I would have probably done even worse myself. However in Ground School I have learned kangaroo good are bad throttle back up and go around again. I could hear the wheels hit and I'm only assuming this so honestly I don't even know but I welcome anyone's comments after all I'm learning and I really want honestly would like other people's thoughts on this.
Wheel it on, check your stick forward holding the tail up, keep it razor straight. When your tail starts dropping, balance with brakes and let the tail down, all the while bleeding off energy, this keeps your main wing at a neutral angle of attack. Way more control, no “P factor” trying to put the tail down early keeping weight on your mains for braking.👍👍
I was taught during a wheel landing to keep a tail up as long as possible, then when the tail finally touches the ground, pull the stick all the way back. And take little stabs at the rudder pedals for correction. Don't hold a rudder pedal until you feel it move. This works for me.
The most dangerous point of the roll out is the point at which your speed is too low for rudder authority but your tailwheel isn't on the ground yet. We pick up wrecked planes from all sorts of wheel landing proponents, lol. Wheel landings are for pilots that are afraid to land slow.
My first 200+ hours were on a Super Cub. I remember making many more practice landings than flying hours. Fortunately I flew from an aerodrome were landings were free, so it wasn't unusual when I practiced some 20 landings as part of a 1 hour solo training flight. I'm still part of the tail dragger pilot team that haven't made a ground loop.
Need touchdown with that stick all the way back when you begin with tailweel sir, get all the energy out the system and there is nothing left to ground loop with. Wheelie roll on landings can come later! Glad it looked like just a scuffed wing tip.
I didn't see the pilot suck the stick back to plant the tailwheel----that would have given him steering authority. With the tailwheel off the runway (or lightly touching it) the rudder doesn't have prop blast nor enough air blowing over it to maintain centerline direction alone.
hi Olle, sadly you were always going to have a groundloop,if you have any taildragger it will get you one day and as I have flown kitox 2 and 3 I can speak from long experience, happily it was only minor damage,you post very good video's,cheers mike
Just saying... It looks like you landed a bit fast and pulled down the tail. I'd consider that a "no no" in a Kitfox.I have a model 1 and 2 ground loops. The first one took me off the runway in the grass, right wing up in the air and hooking right; I didn't hit anything, surprised, just along for the ride. #2 landed, still a bit fast, planted the tail wheel... a bit of tango and I'm dragging the left wing down the runway; it peeled an inch off the drooped tip. I pondered life and flying that tail dragger...Still feeling for that elusive 35 mph full stall 3-point, my best landings are on the wheels; mostly at about 40 mph. I fly the tail until it drops at 15 mph. Low speed tango no worries. Fly the tail. You Tube: Kitfox 1 power off 360, et al. Fly safe. :-)
My best landings are on wheels too and I let the tail fly. After touching ground with wheels at 50 mph, I switch up the flaperons and the tail comes down.
The pilot let go of the aircraft's stick at about 1:45. This is what made the ground loop wrap-up tight. NEVER LET GO OF THE STICK....NEVER. Keep it right up into your nut sack! This pilot gave up control as you can see in the video. He also was only lightly using the rudder pedals and never attempted a go around. You are the pilot, you better be in control from chock to chock.
Letting it touch down with a decent crab to the left was the 1st problem. Relaxing/pushing foreword stick didn’t help! I’m loosing directional control? Ok, I’ll give up my tailwheel steering too! Hmmm... why did it groundloop? 🤔
I am an "ex" kitfox owner.... lots of comments about using the "rudder".... no mention of using the wheel brakes - which is essential to "back uo" the rudder as the airspeed bleeds off during the roll-out.
Yes I see it can happen fast thanks for posting people can learn that are open to it. The ones that thumbs down just ignore as more than likely they are trolls.
That tail wheel sounds like a bad grocery cart. Yikes. the brake would do it, ya. Overall great job of just letting it go instead of hopping on the brakes and fighting it.
I've been flying for decades, now retired, and have to admit never having flown a tail-dragger but on the approach 8-900 fpm and 55-60 kts in a little light a/c looked like an unstable approach as was a 55kt touchdown. We trained in the 80's in PA28s, (Gross wt approx. 2000lbs), RoD was taught at 300 fpm on approach and cross the threshold at
@@Olle1975 Apologies, Of course. I was based in the UK so Kts it was, in the US it's MPH, so about 45/50 kts or so...Makes a difference... As for RoD, in the PA28 for fun we would (when hourbuilding) sideslip in at about 2000 fpm, scared the daylights out non flying passengers and made their ears pop..
Hey Scooby Dooo, I’m also a long-time airline pilot. I used to teach quite a bit in small planes before moving on to the heavy metal. I used to always teach stay close enough to the field to make it back in case you lost an engine. I never wanted my students flying airline style or B-52 approaches because it put them out of range of the airport if you lost your engine. So quite often, I would have them come in fairly steep, definitely more the 300fpm. Unlike the airliners, you can safely go to idle with full flaps and spool the engines up in seconds, versus the spool up time on the jets. Cheers!
I remember being asked by my passenger "Did we crash?" after a foot-high bounce in a Jodel. Comes to show that all my previous landings with that person, must have been quite smooth. I thought "Next time I will show you how a real bounce feels, with teeth fillings falling out.". Some people do ground loops, for fun, as long as the landing gear can take it.
Kitfox is a great aircraft, but its a short coupled tail dragger so the average pilot with low tail wheel time can easily get caught out with the plane and ground loop it.
Putting the little wheel on the ground is always a sporty moment. I find it easier to fly slow than taxi fast, so I always 3-point. Regardless, land exactly straight - accept no drift - and on centerline, and once that tailwheel is on the ground, full aft stick.
You have to be very quick on the rudder with tail draggers. Take offs not easy - I let my feet twitch back and forth, then, full power. Just let your body do it. No time to think. Eyes way forward. I always do a 3 point landing, letting the plane plop down after holding her a few feet off the ground. Can also "fly behind the curve".....lots of power, just inches above the ground, nose high, the plane stalled but the power keeping you up. Then cut power and land immediately. CAVU skies!
