There was nothing wrong until 2:04, that's where it went from a tougher landing to a looper. So right around 2:02 stabilizing the touch down it drifted left (this happens, wind subsided, it's normal); then you over-corrected right with some combination of too much right rudder for too long and/or braking. Bear in mind, this wind is from the right, so "over correcting" means you went over-center right... Cause once you got the nose swinging right, it really wanted to weather-vane into that wind. A quick punch to arrest the "swing" (of the nose) then evaluate and lean on the rudder away from the wind. Also I noticed when you made that first left/right correction you, centered the aileron (2:04). This was deceptively important to this. Centering the ailerons unloaded the right (stable/upwind) wheel and makes you less stable. You should have fed in more aileron after touchdown, even though it's cross controlling. In strong cross winds pinning that upwind wheel down is all that's keeps you from skipping off the runway. It makes a much bigger difference than you'd think (watch the roll/lean left around 2:06 as a result of that). So in summary exactly when you're at the most critical phase for a potential ground loop you took out all that good cross-wind correction and the plane always just wants to find the wind. Mastering the conventional gear aircraft comes down to; _ALWAYS_ fly the plane _ALWAYS_ Increasing your position sensitivity at touch down (can't just plop it in any more nose drivers) Increasing your drift sensitivity from over-the-fence to taxi-speed. (Re)developing your taxi x-wind control corrections How and when to do 3,2,1-point landings Ground loops are mostly about missing a good working inner-ear-to-feet motor skill on rudder. The old timers used to call this "seat of the pants". With a lot of students it takes 4-5 training sessions of doing nothing but landings on wet grass before that drifting feel gets gets hard wired into your muscle memory. So... to fix it; get an instructor, show her or him this video they will straighten you out. Good luck and find your happy feet! -Bruce CFI
Bruce Meacham I’m going to put this in simplified terms. You over corrected the mistake you made where you drifted the nose left then right and back again which. You made the situation worse by centering the stick causing no load to be put on either wing causing the plane to effectively lose some of the weight put there by the wind and did a ground loop. I think that was what I read there simplified. As put to many pilots if you get your tailwheel outside of your main wheels you’ll also do a ground loop which is caused by the added friction between the main wheels and with the tail wheel being the only other contact on the ground and being the farthest away from the main wheels will cause a ground loop.
I think you’re missing a key point that really contributed more than anything. He feeds in forward stick at touchdown, trying to make a wheel landing, but there isn’t enough airflow over the tail and the tail is done flying. He keeps feeding more forward stick, keeping the tailwheel light. If he pulls that stick back in his lap and gets that tailwheel down firmly, he has steering and doesn’t ground loop.
@@jbeach6066 That’s what I seen as well. Forward stick. Put the tail on the ground and maintain directional control. Observation from a non cfi nobody smartass. Over correct or just lost total control by trying to fly the tail without airflow over the tail. I know because I’ve done this 🤣
Here my two cents. As you can see in the RPM gauge, this was a kind of power on landing and just an instant before the plane turn to the right, the power goes to idle and that creates a right turning tendency... I think that is the key.
Another issue here is gyroscopic precession. When you raise the tail on takeoff the nose wants to swing left, when you lower the tail it wants to swing right. A right crosswind also makes the airplane want to swing the nose to the right even more. After touch down the nose swings left briefly, but when he corrects with right rudder, almost every other factor is working to do that already making it impossible for him to stop that right correction from getting away from him. If at all possible when landing in a crosswind, it is almost always better to seek out a left crosswind.
Simple. Keep it straight. Fly it all the way to the hanger. Focusing on a point in the distance as well as using a reference such as aligning a row of rivets on the cowling with the centerline helped me tremendously.
Thanks for posting this one. Hard to evaluate properly without having all the details, so what I'm going to say could be completely wrong. Looks like you had a cross wind landing, drifted to the left after wheels down, and over corrected trying to get back onto the center line, causing the ground loop. I do hope no damage was done to the wing. It looked like the left wing dropped, and may have contacted the ground.
Would appear a wheel landing prevented the STEARABLE tail wheel from aiding directional control by NOT being on the ground. Second, there was not any FULL right ailerone used to create the aileron yaw to the left to aid the rudder, which being VERTICAL to the relative wind is probably stalled, due to its anemically small size.
Appoach small x-wind from left. At 2:01 small drift to left is not initially stopped and then small correction made. At 2:04 over corrects, puts in right rudder (tail wheel), ac wearhervanes, wants to turn into wind. Off you go. Problem started on approach/touchdown. No crosswind control (side slip landing holding aileron into wind throughout landing roll with upwind wheel planted and down wind wheel off as long as you can, progressively adding aileron until it's all in.). Keep plane logitudinal axis aligned with runway with rudder. Make small, quick, early corrections and take correction out, repeat. It is like dancing. Stop drift first, back to middle, and add correction, take it out, put back in as needed, take it out. If nothing is happening, don't move rudder (taikwheel). If you just correct and hold rudder correction in, it will over correct. Correct, neutral, correct, neutral, dance on the rudder pedals. Small, early, quick movements going back to neutral. If crosswind is strong land on up wind wheel and hold that bank during roll out, until aileron authority can" hokd down wind wing up... You don't land flat or in a crab.
Another issue here is gyroscopic precession. When you raise the tail on takeoff the nose wants to swing left, when you lower the tail it wants to swing right. A right crosswind also makes the airplane want to swing the nose to the right even more. After touch down the nose swings left briefly, but when he corrects with right rudder, almost every other factor is working to do that already making it impossible for him to stop that right correction from getting away from him. If at all possible when landing in a crosswind, it is almost always better to seek out a left crosswind
Someone needs to take that plane away from him. I've never flown a Kitfox...and wouldn't. It appeared he had a bit of a cross wind and was set up to nail a 3-point landing at stall speed. After touch down he ran the stick full forward which allowed whatever crosswind to take over the tail of the plane and this is what happens. The person who taught him needs to be talked to as well.
At about 206 you will see he 3 pointed down then brought stick forward and held it there. There was no more airspeed for fudder authority so stick all the way back into lap would have been better to maintain control.
For my four penneth. Ive a lot of tailwheel time btw. The best way of dealing with a groundloop is not to let it develop in the first place. The chances of a ground loop go up at the exponential of the degrees of swing. Once the tail drops the amount of aerodynamic influence it has also drops, and youd best be ready with some energetic and possibly large rudder inputs. Obviously a crosswind adds a malevolent influence and you will have to actively counter this. So.....you need to be paying attention real good at the moment of touchdown. Looks like this aeroplane was in charge of itself at a critical stage of the flight.
Umm... to everyone saying stuff about the CG moving... Ummmm. WHAT!?!??!!! The center of gravity (or more accurately, the center of mass) never moves.. unless you have a cargo shift like that poor 747 at Baghram AFB. The center of mass is ALWAYS behind the mains on a taildragger. THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT A TAILDRAGGER. Because the center of mass is behind the mains, if there's any side moment when the tires grip the pavement, the tires want to not slide sideways but the center of mass behind that is already going sideways wants to keep going sideways (momentum) IF you can't provide some force to counteract that momentum, around you go. We can correct that sideways momentum by two methods, both require diligence with the rudder. On a wheel landing, we have enough airspeed over the rudder so that it has enough authority to counteract sideways moments. In a three point, we NEED to keep that stick back to force the tailwheel onto the ground so IT has the authority to counteract the sideways moments. From what this vid shows, the nose high attitude indicates an attempted 3 point but the stick wasn't full back and once it started to go sideways, there was no hope of saving it.
"The center of gravity (or more accurately, the center of mass) never moves.. unless you have a cargo shift like that poor 747 at Baghram AFB." So does it never move or does it move? Those are two contradictory statements. The Center of gravity does move. That is why we do weight and balance, to make sure the Cg is within limits. You don't need to have a weight shift in a 747 for the aircraft to be out of limits.
HDaviator don’t know what you are trying to say here, but no. His cg didn’t change from the start of video to the end. That 747 had a massive cargo shift that made it tail heavy, pitched up, stalled, and was un recoverable because the sc was so far back.
Great post, takes nerve! Problem is stick, elevator, is forward, so CG is forward of mains. Stick back keeps CG aft of the mains. Once CG is forward of mains, plane will pivot esp with cross wind or rudder, ailerons, etc.. Punch rudder continually for direction.
Having the CG behind the mains in a taildragger will naturally worsen a side drift. CG forward of the mains (as in a regular nose wheel plane) wil naturally correct a side drift. Seems to me that here there was an overcontrolled reaction to a left turn, leading to a ground loop to the right. Possibly ailerons could have helped in recovery. I'm not familiar with a kit fox.
Taildraggers require a lot of rudder input from the feet to hold the nose where you want it..........straight down the runway. Stick full back to keep tail on the ground!
A three point landing is always best with the aircraft settling smoothly and stick all the way back but as David says be quick to control with pedals but only small inputs
A direct-crosswind three point, arriving on the upwind wheel & tailwheel, after cancelling all lateral drift & crab angle, can be useful unless added speed margin is required for gusts & turbulence with a quartering crosswind. In that case a wheel landing made on the upwind main, with minimal sink at touchdown and positive crosswind correction, are the best bet for someone with the skillset. Under no circumstances does a pilot want to touch down with drift, side-load, or crab as demonstrated here. go around, and do it better on the next circuit.
Didn’t read all comments to see if anyone mentioned this pilot pushing forward on the stick after the wheels tough down. I thought for a second that he’s was going to abort and go round, but the loop had him.
Power off too will swing the nose, its combination effect , variable cross component , over booting , pitch control a bit out . I agree , fly it all the way to the hanger, add some power if you need to for some authority. Control the beast . dont let it control you . No damage done though and you and aircraft appear o.k. Thanks for sharing , helps us all. Cheers !
I’ve played this over and over again. I have a 1st generation Avid STOL that I am studying how to fly. ( I’ve only flown Cessnas up to this point) My interpretation is that the pilot missed kicking in hard right rudder just after touchdown. It veers left , and he’s lost it. The swing back to the right may have been delayed over reaction or just pendulum effect.
With the stick neutral and engine idle you have no rudder authority. Consider carrying a little bit of throttle to give the rudder some leverage and to plant the tail wheel as needed.
you can stick the wheels to the ground for best contact until you're below flying speed. Then pull back to pin the tail. He was too fast on touchdown but did not manage the tail good enough or lost authority due to max x-wind landing.
At the speed plane was doing on touchdown he should have had the stick all the way back not central or forward, no use of brakes or aileron as brakes will put you on your nose and aileron would be useless at that speed so use only rudder pedals, and keep eye on landing not door, cheers mike
Is the Kitfox inherently unstable in flight? Normally in a hazy condition the air is fairly stable. If it's a stable airplane, the airspeed, power, pitch and nose were all over the place. Bad landings start way before touching down. If the pilot is behind the curve there, it usually means they are behind the curve at touchdown too. I'm not trying to say anything non constructive here only constructive. It doesn't appear to me, he was ahead of the plane. When you are behind and even small events needing quick inputs, they usually don't occur when a tiny input would help. Hence over correction and well, those "what happened" events occur. Best course of action is to get back in the air more often and practice, practice, practice. Mechanically you pushed the stick forward once on the ground. This lifts the tailwheel up allowing the plane to weathervane into what appears to be a right quartering headwind. The stick needed to be in your lap to firmly plant the tail. Thanks for being open and sharing! That is the sign of a great pilot!
It looked like he overcorrected in a crosswind land. It looked like he did his best to keep the tail up, but may have used the brakes while trying to bring it back to centerline.
(Thanks for sharing this.) Ended up on the grass, probably where everyone should learn to land a tail wheel airplane. Much more forgiving, the grass doesn't grab the tire like asphalt will. Then again, one shouldn't have sideways movement, ideally the plane is going straight down the runway, and remains so when touching down. Also, I think I heard the stall warning, maybe a bit slow for a wheel landing? And the bounce. If someone is inexperienced, it might be better to go around after a bounce, unless you've practiced a few and are comfortable with transitioning to a three-pointer after a bounce. Here's a video if you're bored. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-L6YImvu1yWg.html
he never planted the tailwheel, let alone once the tail lost aerodynamic authority. No proactive rudder inputs leading to that either. The rest was to be expected.
Getting worried haha have just bought a TD! Am I right in saying keep some revs on touchdown, shuffle the rudders and slowly idle. When tail starts to drop at all get the stick back and fly all the way to Key out? Complete rooke on TD so please comment!
WeePilot Definitely get some dual instruction on landings. On touchdown and rollout hold that stick all the way back to give the tailwheel traction for steering. As soon as he touched down he put the stick forward reducing his ability to steer. He was probably going too slow for his rudder to be very effective, particularly if there was a crosswind. In higher winds you can land by gently flying it on to the runway on the main gear first and then bring the tail down, just be careful of your prop. Good luck!
I land with brakes on ! Kitfox brakes won't put you on your nose, there not good enough. He done a wheel landing, best landing in most conditions especially x wind, master them! Only problem here is that he was on the rudder/brakes as if he was flying a cessna. He was behind the aircraft. You need to punch and jab the rudder ! PUNCH AND JAB. If x wind let tail down a little early and then stick all the way back. Try and have no rudder input as tailwheel touchs down. Practice,practice, practice :-). Muscle memory ;-)
Well you could see the crab that he had the plane in, and when he touched, the nose went to the left instantly meaning he also touched down with a side load. If you see how he was crabbing you obviously know where the wind is coming from. LOOK CLOSELY and tell me....did he have correction in for that as well? NOPE, stick was center. This tells me that the wind was able to lift that right wing up and from that point on, you're just in for the ride. You are right, you have to be on that rudder in a tailwheel. In a Cessna you have two main flight controls: Ailerons and Elevator. But in tailwheel aircraft, that rudder is more important that anything else. DONT FORGET THAT X-WIND CORRECTION or you'll be ground looping a lot...
CGS_Hawk_Pilot well in this certain airplane you have to slow down to lower the tail, because if you put the tail on the ground you will lift back off. Lol
@@PARTner91 he definitely intended on doing a wheel landing, not a three point. Wheel landing requires forward stick pressure after touchdown to keep from pitching back up.
@@PARTner91 Yeah sure but there's a time and a place for every type of landing and if you aren't comfortable and proficient at landing on one, two, or three wheels you aren't where you need to be. You can't fully rely on one landing style for every scenario.
Ailerons are the RULER, at 2 to 4 times the surface area of the rudder, with 2 to 4 times the leverage of the rudder, AND horizontal to the relative wind . . . mostly unstalled 60° either side of center. Simple rule: take off & roll out; Maintain Ailerons PROPORTIONALY, OPPOSITE the requested rudder...tri gear or tailwheel.
Use the wheel brakes ! In extreme crosswinds the kitfox rudder alone lacks the required authority to keep straight - especially on tarmac as the airspeed bleeds off during the ground run.
Set the tail down too fast, get heavy on the foot and it will ground loop faster than you can say it. I did 2 of them in my. Kitfox1 N75HH. DID wheel landings at 45 fly the tail it will come down at 15mph. 72 hours, didn't break anything 😅
Did nearly everything wrong. Bounced the landing, did not keep it straight during the bounce, drifted left, way over corrected to the right while shoving the stick forward then totally lets go of the stick. Now idea what he was trying to accomplish.
brakes no brakes bud your in kitfox already going slow enough groundroll speed and put stick in your gut this guy was doomed soon as main wheels touched
My Comments From someone that hasn’t flown in 20 years. Lack of rudder control and ailerons due to crosswind. If you don’t have a locking tail wheel, then you gotta step like you dancing in the 80’s. Damn right Travolta! Also. Cross wind ailerons and breaking. Isn’t this model CSP? If so, I didn’t see any prop trim. Awesome video. The mistakes are very minor ish. Great learning. Thanks!
First of all it’s harder to land a Taildragger on hard surface rather than a grass runway you taxi with the stick all the way back to keep the tail planted unless you’re doing a wheel landing once you touch down the stick should be held all the way back until you stop and your rudder be done with happy feet to keep it straight
Mary Jorgensen you dont always taxi with the stick back. Taxiing down wind you might hold the stick forward because the down wind might be stronger then the prop blast.
From what I see he fale to keep stick back after landing he push stick far forward then just let it go to enjoy the ride because he gave up on piloting
He made up his mind he was going to land and didn't deviate from that plan. Maybe should have added power when veered left and did a touch and go instead of sticking to his original plan? Hard to tell, and easy to say in hind-sight...
John, yes to all! And a big yes to brakes on the just the left wheel to pull the tail to the right. Never get to far into the landing before going around.
Too much energy for a 3 pointer , and not quick enough on the rudder for an effective two wheeler , the big mistake however was not going full power to go around as soon as it started going wrong
He didn't use the rudder & hit the brakes too early. If he'd stayed on the strip & washed off speed with the throttle with only a light dab of the brakes, all would have been OK. Bearing in mind,any landing is a good landing when nobody is hurt!
FLAT APPROACH and POOR FOLLOW-THRU on the ground? Based on only what the video provides (i.e. no wind or mechanical info), his approach looked low and flat which makes him ride and add power at least twice to maintain speed and make it to the runway. (Too much energy?) Once on the ground his power was still up a bit, and makes me think he may have forced the plane down instead of letting come down in 3-pointed AoA? Then...Once tail was on the ground the stick was not held back. With tail not pinned to the ground he even less yaw authority. Possibly could have salvaged it with a wheel landing?
Fly the airplane all the way to the hangar. This was just over control. My fav plane is a Luscombe. It's fairly short coupled, but just a beautiful flying machine. In landing just stab the rudder, don't hold it in, if needed stab again as soon as you start off line.
Sloppy rudder input, no aileron or incorrect input, behind the aircraft before over the threshold, bad throttle management and needs crosswind practice.
Every beginner pilot should be taught in a taildragger. Why doesn’t somebody get hold of the jigs and manufacture Chipmunks again?, after all, they did it with Wacos ,didn’t they?
Punch the rudder after 2 wheels down, instead of holding rudder firm to right on this one. Punch it right right left right …. To return to center line. May have had his toe on the left rudder brake and cross wind correction was not able to coordinate on touchdown
he doesn't know what any of his control inputs are. he is more worried about the window coming open than controlling the airplane. almost nobody understands that aileron inputs have more effect than rudder inputs on asphalt. you have to steer the aileron in the direction the plane is going, the exact opposite of a car. the aileron will overcome the rudder input every time. everybody steers the aileron like they would steer their car, until they are taught to steer the aileron the same way the plane is going off the runway, especially with a yoke. a stick is easier to learn to make the proper aileron input. most pilots are not even aware of what they are doing with the ailerons and unconconsously steer like they would their car. you can have full right rudder input and if you steer right aileron it will overcome the right rudder input and put the plane in a left ground loop every time. i really enjoy driving a taildragger down a long asphalt runway and letting learning tailwheel pilots watch the plane go left when right aileron is applied and vice versa. a real eye opener. i believe all ground loops are the result of backwards aileron inputs.
It was always a bad approach and always very poor basic control. Nose is wandering all over the place but his correction was poor. Not a proper 3 point landing and stick not right back after landing. To aggressive with controls until when it really mattered when he was late to react to nose swinging. He just needed about 10 hours more basic training, and not just on tail draggers but general basic piloting skills.
You could of saved that fairly easily, the kitfox has amazing aileron authority I noticed you didn't move the stick hardly at all if you had used opposite Aileron at the start of the loop it would of straightened right out, the Kitfox always demands very quick reactions on the rudder "dance" as I like to call it also remember as the tail settles you lose airflow off the rudder so less control you are better off "wheeling" on and even a touch of forward stick to keep the tai; in the airflow just that bit longer on your roll out, I don't agree with using brakes there is always the danger of tipping forward then its a real cluster%#^@&*, here is a great video on the correct technique ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mqydeK0dZi0.html
David Knight +1 for David, he must be a tailwheel pilot! The pilot gave up on landing rollout, pure and simple, he let go of the stick which should have been up in his nuts!
