Good compromise tbh. Players who know how to kbd aren’t affected but players who don’t know can use something that’s inferior but much easier to pull off. Excellent game design and perfect to set up that feeling of “damn I wanna learn that” for intermediate players looking to level up.
@@PhiDX players who can backdash are affected because all of the work they put in to gain movement advantage is diminished as with electrics and running moves.
@@jestyo0o this exactly! Everyone here acting like the KBD is a secret technique only learnable by monks who seclude themself away from society to practice it...I spent 3 days about 5 hours total trying to learn it and by the 5th hour I had a somewhat clean KBD on dualshock joystick as well which I'm told is the hardest input method. I don't particularly care either way if it's necessary or completely useless, I'll adapt either way but the discourse around this change has been downright baffling
That's what I'm saying. I think they got rid of it because they're basically useless in the higher levels of the tournament scene, where players can parry or break them like nothing. I was definitely hoping they were gonna refine and further complexify the ground and wall splat mechanics. Tekken always comes to life when the characters are mixing it up against the wall.
That’s interesting. May give the characters that had them specifically in their movelists a little more unique. Of course, it also means doing arm at reversals is probably no longer a thing or will be rare
A very legacy mechanic which is very hard to counter if you're not a pro. To much homework for new coming players tbh. So far Tekken 8 feels very fresh. They kinda cut out the redundant stuff out while adding new. It is a very good decision as some players already pointed out how for example convoluted SF6 is because of a huge stack of different mechanics which overwhelmes a players mind. I wish they'd also remove rage arts as they create that exact feeling of piling up together with Heat as you have to now consider both Heat smash and Rage Art in the same round unlike in T7 where it is one or the other.
Idiots in comment section that will play this game for 1 month then quit: I love this I hate having to learn how to do X movement shouldn’t be hard in any game!! Yes people should be able to move easier but they shouldn’t ever remove KBD. Meanwhile Soul Calibur(essentially simplified tekken) was dead on arrival. They already made a game for people that want everything to be mindnumbingly simplified but looks like nobody wants to play it. Backdash is not the reason why you will quit tekken. The reason why you will quit is because you are going to go up against cheese characters with cheesy strings, you will get mixed up and you will be helpless. Will you try to learn how to counter this? Nope you will just get frustrated. Given the fact that you cannot learn how to do a simple down, up input(kbd notation is overly complicated to someone that can’t read it just know when you actually know how to do it it’s literally 2 simple motions) I highly doubt you are going to learn how to deal with the actually insane stuff in this game. Dumb argument number 2: It’s a glitch!!! It SHOULDN’T EVEN BE IN THE GAME!!! Not to mention that this isn’t ever something that somebody that actually plays these games would ever say but let’s just apply this type of thinking universally. “Dude dunking shouldn’t even be in basketball it’s literally a glitch!!! Dude dribbling shouldn’t be in basketball it’s another glitch!!” High skill players will always find exploits and techniques to further increase the skill gap between themselves and newcomers it’s called emergent gameplay and it’s up to the community to decide what is or isn’t desired. If you don’t like the rules of the NBA you can go play elsewhere if you don’t like the rules of tekken well there are hundreds of other games you can play. The community has decided that they enjoy the Korean Backdash and it’s not going anywhere. The worst thing that can happen to this game is if Namco decided to listen to a bunch of people that don’t even play the game and orient themselves towards valuing the opinion of people that don’t even participate or support them. Imagine if the NFL started listening to non football players/fans and allowed their opinions to influence rule based decision making(oops bad example) I mean well what if the politicians in america decided to overestimate the opinions of outsider non citizens or rich clout chasers at the behest of actual ordinary american citizens(oops another bad example) see where I’m going here?
Exactly. Lowering skill ceiling and remove skills from the game is terrible. Movement is one of the big things in any game, and there should 100% have hard and advanced technique in any single game. It's up to the players to learn them, not the game to baby sit them.
as someone who isnt very good at tekken and got into this beta, i felt the change sooooo quick. and honestly, i really like it! tekken 8 as a whole feels so fluid and just moving around feels so much better imo. also being able to do while running inputs a bit easier is honestly something i really really like
@@Jetanium honestly yea i figured but for a newer player it feels much more accessible and easy to move around in. when playing tekken 7 i felt characters that could just press on me i could do nothing about because i couldn't disengage fast enough. it made playing in lower ranks against quick characters really frustrating.
Cool! Back when I started with TTT2, learning to KBD was the biggest edge I ever got in low ranks (where I belong). Back then even just holding back didn't give you the T7 back walk. Like, I spent two evenings learning this parlor trick and suddenly was bodying everyone. Which felt unfair, tbh. No amount of labbing will help you if your opponent can run circles around you. I liked the removal of the old back roll too. That shit was straight up trap.
@@bennymountain1that old back roll was insanely bullshit, the fact that you had to press up then block just for getting up without tech catch is insane
IMO back dash cancelling is a quite contrived solution for a problem that should have never existed in the first place. If your game design requires to have a slow backdash, then bdc shouldn't be allowed at all. If your game doesn't require a slow backdash, then the backdash should be easy and fast by default. Making such an execution gate an unspoken requirement for serious gameplay is like forcing a pianist to play the piano with gloves: a huge skill check with no real purpose. I'm glad it is not as prevalent as before. Hope it totally dissapears with the next patch.
Facts. At least they are bufing normal backdash a lot now. But they prob scared to make it better than KBD as its a "glitch" that they known and kept in basically almost whole tekken franchise lifespan at this point. They are scared to make normal backdash become as good or close as good as KBD.
Not really tbh. Fighting games have multiple aspects that can be limited to skill checks such as 1F links for optimal combos. However making basic movement difficult *without any reason* is just kinda dumb. KBD is emergent gameplay, and one that the devs have been aware of and know the prevalence of. They are also aware that they are needlessly difficult to execute and just hurt the gameplay experience as the more stingy the game is to control the less decisions a player can make around the actual fighting system. Reducing that allows the game to increase player retention and instead of making players have to do hand gymnastics, and take that out of the mental stack altogether so that the fighting system is more engaging. You shouldn't have to struggle with your controls. It's the quarter munching arcade game philosophy that sometimes severely holds FGs back from evolving and improving in the modern day.
@@topvillainy maybe we should raise the skill ceiling in other games by making players do some weird input to be able to move anywhere, lets try call of duty first
A good analogy is dribbling is basketball. I think the existence of a rewarding mechanic for skill expression makes a great game. They've arrived at a great compromise here
I feel like without the KBD, spacing in T8 won’t be as much of a factor as it was in previous games. It looks like wavedashing & regular forward movements have been untouched. That on top of better sidestepping & the heat mechanics, definitely forces us to play more aggressive, neutralizing the spacing/defense game a bit.
@@escmousedownclickmousedown7851 I don't remember exactly how to get to it, but if you pause the game while searching, you can go to a combo challenge mode and practice without searching for a match
Man I’m loving the beta so far. I’m a Jin and Kazuya main, I’ve actually won quite a few matches uses those 2. It’s funny because I get my ass kicked with any other character. Not bad for my first time playing 8. So much better than 7, but I don’t know why they took away Jin’s Kazama style 5 hit combo from 7.
@@Phantom_Zer0 It's not a glitch. Else they have removed that a long time ago. It's part of the Tekken system. They have already made Tekken 7 easier. Now iwr2 is easier. What's next to make ewgf one press of a button move?
@@ojsojs6004 Actually YA. LOL. Just map the right or left stick push button. Usually called L3 or R3, with special style. And you can toggle it really fast. Only Kazuya. Jin is hopkick.
I always feel like KBD has been the albatross around Namco's neck. If I recall correctly players complained about the KBD exploit in Tekken Tag leading to its decimation in Tekken 4. But then people realised how shitty Tekken 4 movement was without it. And so it came back. I always wondered if this solution should have been implemented all the way back in 2002 instead - remove KBD and make regular backdashes as useful as KBD. And perhaps KBD would just be a bit of old Tekken trivia. But its been almost 20 years and now KBD is so ingrained into the fabric of high level Tekken they cant ever get rid of it. it seems theyre still struggling to find out how to balance this exploit and try to keep Pro players and casual players happy. Perhaps this is the best solution
Movement cancels are fundamental to tekken's engine, it's how wavedashes, sidestep blocks, and literally every non-attack-button action behaves. I think this is one of the best solutions for sure, and it would be cool if movement cancels were truly fluid in addition to having this new feature
I’m glad I watched this video. I can’t play Tekken without KBD. The way I see it KBD is the equivalent of canceling in Street Fighter which became a staple in the series from a unforeseen bug. Being able to move with fluidity is a big deal in this game.
It’s also one of the reasons that low level tekken is so utterly crap. Nobody wants to have to spend hours practicing a basic movement technique that some people find they can’t do anyway
Another win for player retention, that doesn't compromise the integrity of the fighting system, and honestly is something longtime players have been asking for as well.
I agree with the points you made. Just the fact that it is new player friendly is awesome. Many times I have tried to get people playing Tekken and that was thier main complaint as if the felt they were in mud when back dashing when they were used to quick Backdashes from 2D fighters. Then when I show them you have to KBD and they go like yeah, Im out.
2 things i noticed as well. 1. With this new change in place, it'll make it easier for newer players to make a lot of distance. However, escaping from range 0 to 2 will probably still require a backdash cancel. 2. Characters with sways are completely unaffected by this change. Backsway cancels are by far the quickest way to make distance
This video was the first time it occured to me that giving Tekken good rollback will probably require more effort than most games. If we need to lose some minor stuff here and there for better online, I think it's a worthwhile tradeoff.
If we can get a good online I do think it's a good trade-off, but this and the previous network test do not have me convinced. I still get 4 bars from eastern europe to the UK and Spain, It still feels like shit to play people outside of like a country over at most.
That's not the only issue. Rollback essentially simulates all available options from your character's current state. 2D games have it significantly easier to simulate all states since both players move on a single axis. Tekken being 3D requires the rollback to take into account each character's current positioning and the direction they are facing
@@krazanas That isn't how rollback works, it just holds the last input you received from your opponent and corrects their position when you receive their new inputs. It's not simulating every possible thing they could do.
i dont even play this shit i just clicked on it to figure out what tekken 8 has to do with cock and ball torture and found out it means closed beta test
Movement is the best part of any Fighting game. When I was at the peak of my smash days, it felt like i was on cloud 9 when I had captian falcon moving exactly where I wanted him to go. I haven't gotten there with Tekken yet, but once I get used to this new one, I might feel like
@@mydrillasanjay5397I think it's fine to start with a Mishima. I'm pretty sure there's plenty of players who started by learning ewgf before backdash or maybe even general frames. That's how I started off and it was fun because it was just something I wanted to learn just because.
Its good thing finally they buff the normal backdash to be actually viable and useable. Ofc KBD still better but not as must to learn compared to all previous tekkens. Bamco did good on this one.
4:54 my God people are dumb,nerfing the game will not get the fortniters to play! That's who they're trying to attract! Fighting games are the most intimidating games. Nerfing them does NOTHING! People have to want to try them all on their own. 1button specials/combos doesn't make people go "ooo NOW I want to play" because they know they'll still get whooped. You can't nerf the skill gap we already have.
I can't help but be just a little disappointed by the new kbd. A long kbd still has the potential to be cut short, making it useful for both "macro" movements and "micro" movements, depending on your technical ability to get the length you want. This is an obvious observation I feel like but I just really enjoy the dynamic. Making it shorter limits its use as macro movement. I think this really hinders its versatility. It also makes forward movement and combos with great carry stronger (and by virtue, wall pressure), which is probably the intended function of this change. I don't like the idea of being trapped with a mid-dispenser character and having a wimpy kbd, it could make for very belligerent neutral, but alas. I'm cautiously optimistic though, I think the wall especially will be really fun and very dangerous
" I really like enjoy the part of the game where I bait them with my movement and hit them when they whiff " The fighting game beginner's discovery of "footsies." Beautiful
@@alexlobitz219 sounds like you are projecting bud. Id introduce you to my RU-vid but who cares, you won't be even a memory after this message lol again stop letting scrubs like this guy add to this game!!
I didn't get access to the first beta CNT so only based on the current beta, I noticed it too compared to 7. I play on a standard dualsense controller and KBD on the dpad hurts my thumb so naturally it gets slower as I play in T7 and get wrecked. I can seemingly do either or in 8, KBD or just mash backwards. I like it, it seems having a good KBD may still be more rewarding which is fine with me as I happen to try doing it out of habit for doing it so long at this point. 10 years in fact.
People focus on minute mechanics like KBD and spacing, which is fine, but can we adress how abysmall the visibility is in this game? Between the particles, fancy shaders, cameraman being KOd every other hit etc its really hard to see and understand what happens in a match. Granted, it's a noob problem, but as a newbie when someone goes full monkey on your ass not only are you at loss about what to do, but you also have it harder to learn from the loss on the spot.
I think buffing the back dash even more is for the better because then you do not need to learn KBD at all, and the game becomes accessible to its full potential.
I’ve been a proponent of technical movement techniques like KBD because of how they give new players something concrete to measure their progress by. As a new player, you can’t really tell if your spacing, decision-making in neutral and those sorts of things are improving, but you can sure as hell tell that your movement is way cleaner than it was last week, and that keeps you engaged. Tekken having better backdashes as a base is actually something I’ve wanted for a long time, since it does exactly what you and others have said: it lets new players play that very baseline level of footsies that actually somewhat resembles Tekken while still leaving space for them to work towards the more technical and powerful movement option. I would still prefer Tekken On Ice as far as movement goes, but I think Tekken 8 is making some fairly sensible decisions for what it’s trying to be
I seriously believe Korean Backdash is the biggest barrier to any Tekken player to have a chance in medium - high level play. As a casual, let's imagine I just want to sit on an arcade, and fight someone for the fun of it. I'm not going to spend so much time learning how to KBD, stick with the fundamentals, and this is the solution that wins em all. :)
I don't think it is. There's a lot of micro variations in many situations in Tekken, and the muscle memory-level familiarity with those interactions is much harder to acquire than a functional backdash cancel
This is the kinda comment that make me wish online was locked to players (after a certain rank) until they can show they can consistently KBD in practice mode. KBD isn't a barrier, it's a tool that teaches you the importance of spacing and it helps you learn how to really space properly. I wish people stopped viewing proper movement as this "super advanced and difficult thing to learn". It's just a mental block you've created for yourself before you've even tried learning it.
Being honest, my korean backdash was kinda sloppy. I could do like 2-3 backdashes, maybe 4, then i lose the speed. Going to tekken 8, i felt like my backdashes werent going far enough to justify the effort compared to just spamming back. I dont feel the need to be the top player, i just wanna play some games with my friends, and all of them arent very good at kbd. To me, this was perfect, as it brought us all to the same ground, since we can now play together without me holding back completely or them getting bodied by movement. Ive been asking for easier backdashes in tekken and finally they gave it to us. Im very happy.
i feel like with this, you can now at least compete in the higher ranks without knowing kbd. so now new players like myself, can focus more on the regular gameplay itself to get good at. and once we have a strong understanding of the normal gameplay, then we can worry about the glitch movement at the end of the road and not the beginning.
why do you want to keep the execution for something that wasn't even part of the intended game design? backdash cancel should have never been a thing. I'm all for having a regular backdash that is good (like in every other game) instead of the need of a "skill" for something that should have never existed.
i think regular backdashing being good is a great feature for new players, but i still think KBDs should be relevant and speed up your ability to retreat. i still really want strong movement in this game. we're still fighting nukes in tekken 8. jin's max damage combo in tekken 8 does 90% health rn.
honestly I might try tekken 8 if I have the hardware because of this change, legit the only things that really even put me off tekken in T7 were the fact that I'm used to 2D blocking which is a total inverse of tekken, block low by default to defend lows and mids, and react high for overheads and highs, whereas tekken is block high for highs and mids and eact low, it was just so hard to get used to that, and the other big thing was backdashing felt so clunky, like even the worst backdashes in guilty gear and street fighter didn't feel as bad to me as tekken, and KBD really didn't seem worthwhile to learn, just to be able to do what every other game lets me do as long as I know how to double flick/double tap and now that 1/2 of those problems are gone and the only struggle is gonna be learning the different blocking mechanics, I think I may actually be able to enjoy it and have a good time with tekken....... provided of course they don't bring back Eddy...... Hate that guy and his spinny split kick from hell
The minute I heard beginner friendly my brain instantly shutdown I hate beginners yes I'm gatekeeping I dont care let me enjoy the game if u havent played the previous 7+ tekkens than too bad.
Hey man how are you feeling, is your arm better? I also have been feeling pain from tendinitis in my left hand but it must be because of working out and the weather is getting colder, its the price of getting old i guess 😂. I love your videos analysing things, i hope you make some kind of tutorials for T8, that would be nice. Thank you for this one i appreciate it.
@@shafir2 maybe only on PC? I’ve been playing on console PS4/PS5 since release and have never come across a teleporting opponent due to rollback or lag or whatever it’s called. But I’m definitely it has happened to a lot of people.
Awesome video and very glad Tekken 8 is moving back dashing into this line of light. I've been playing the series since Tekken 3 so I'm not new, but the criticality of KBD in Tekken 7 limits players ability to rise up - and I say this mainly because on PS4/5, there's no way my wrist or my thumbs can tactically do KBDs regardless of the practice time. And like you displayed, the regular back dash in T7 is atrocious to the point where higher level play is next to impossible without KBD. The change helps new players or players like me with thumbs that can't go fingerbanging the dpad
Players that can kbd are still gonna have a significant advantage. Especially when it comes to whiff punishing the opponent spamming a characters moves that get heat to activate, which is guaranteed to be what the meta is. Get a stick or a lever less and learn it bro
@@jaykelley103 KBD was an unintentional by product and now it's mostly removed in tekken 8. It was obviously beyond developers intent. Now he doesn't have to learn it, something that was goofy as hell to begin with. "Buy a better controller and learn it🤓" annoyance
Honestly so glad they made that change with KBD, I had to play T7 on a keyboard just to be able to do KBD properly, my thumbs are too small to do the inputs on a controller.
Movement isn’t too bad to me, just played this morning. Kbds don’t feel the same but it stills feel hella responsive. I like the wider side steps (goes well with my playstyle) I’ve noticed CD feels easier to do. I’m on PC(4K 3080), but it has its moments when it feels off in matches, not a deal breaker
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it simply bb d, bb d but now you can buffer it like ss? Because if it is it is a very good change for options to counter spamers cuz it means you are also faster starting backwalk . If someone mindlessly spam one like df1 can just buffer sidestep on block and punish. For creating distance tu punish pedictible patterns from your opponent it is harder to do in 7 cuz if you do slow kb then cancel it into bb you I pretty much freezed for moment if you dont do d and hold b and you can accidently get qcb. But now in the same situation you can be wanted for your read because you will most likely create enough distance to whiff punish oponent.
I appreciate the nerf honestly it helps pad players with all the different controller types and still gives stick players that little speed boost instead of getting rid of it completely
In Tekken 8 movement is overall stronger sibce moves don't track as much and hurt as far for most of the cast. Even with the backwards movement being nerfed i still can use my movement more freely in 8 even against matchups im unfamiliar with. You gotta actually know what your doing on offense to shut down someones movement, which just wasn't the case in 8.
I've not really bothered with Tekken since Tekken 4, Ive always tried the newer games and not liked them. Picking up 8 I was expecting not to like it again but I immediately felt the difference in movement and fluidity whilst it's still really challenging in the hardest levels. Now it makes sense why. This one is going to pull a lot of OG fans back in and a lot of new fans
i guess they made perform easier most of moves , let me give an example , , back - forward punch or kick moves , i cant perfom these moves on tekken 7 , tried tekken8 closed beta , it was super easy
Movement nerf really makes this game go in the wrong direction, Tekken 7 was worse enough and now this, I hope they change this, fast fluid movement with how aggressive this game is would have balanced it, so you can play defensive or aggressive and less relying on just mashing buttons or indulging in guessing games, also would make this game more strategic and tactile, more whiffs, counters etc, strategically target your opponent, more enjoyable to play
Wait low parry got changed? Where do i see these changes/learn how to do them didnt see in the beta and the battle tutorial was just ok. Wonder if teching throws is different (i wouldn't know if they did change bc im trash at them to begin with XD)
@@JJEHUTYY i am a traditionalists and a purists when it comes to games and i would oppose any change to a system to make the game easier. The problem here is tha KBD is basically a glitch and not a system, it was not supposed to be how the game is played, so them trying to fix it without angering those who use it is the right thing to do. It is not baby mode, baby mode is Modern cotrols in Street Fighter 6, that's for lazy people, forcing people to learn glitches to be competitive is nonsense and would have been removed in any other competitive game.
@@Phantom_Zer0 its not a glitch because walking back side stepping is instant. So all you do is backdash cancel into crouch or sidestep fast & repeat this to get KBD its not a glitch its just an Exploited movement from something already there which gradually became its own thing. Tons of pros play WITHOUT this so the option to learn is there. like don't cry about people who put in the work and CAN utilize it.
I see this as ending up like sfv simple inputs. People said simple inputs were not as good as classic ones but now they are on par with each other. Well hopefully this change doesn't invalidate the work people put in for actual KBD.
I think using normal backdashes will be strong even at pro level too. When you're a little too close for comfort, you now have the option to backdash out of your opponent's pressure slightly slower but without the risk of getting clipped during the crouch.
Now we’ll have a whole new wave of players who won’t be able to say “why tf does backdash feel this slow and clunky” This is definitely a good decision, KBD are still optimal but at least now casuals can actually moves backwards properly and it feels better
I still prefer Tekken, not too a fan of fireballs(rather play contra or rockman or COD), not too fan of 2 characters, and Tekken has way higher lifespan and support than your average fighting game(look at the time between Tek 7 and Tek 8)
I am okay with nerfed kbd tbh because the dynamic now is much more interesting. Sideways movement feels better so far. Maybe it's just because characters in general have less moves that track well without formally being homing like in T7. E.g. I've managed to step Kazuya's electric with SSR once. That's a big deal to me. 'Side Swapper' stat is much easier to build up in T8 than 'Side Step' in T7 as well. Also you don't really want to move back too much in T8 because of Heat dash that gets your back against the wall in a second. You will allways want to press on. EDIT It is actually quite realistic as well. In a real fight you never want to move backwards too much because you allow you opponent to build momentum while making it harder to do so yourself. It is allways better to cut angles and suffocate your opponent with pressure. When games have a bit of realism like this they become more intuitive to newbies whithout becoming too casual.
A lot of people saying this is trash are purists/elitists Tekken players who want Tekken to be a hard game forever. You do realise a lot of people who try to get in this game and learn it are casuals, so when the elitists in the community want things to be hard...they're pushing the casuals away. Why do you think Fighting Games as a genre isn't popular? Cuz of the skill gap. So the devs simplifying things is really nice, and I prefer easier movement over harder movement. Most fighting games have easy backwards momentum, so Tekken having a skill gap for movement imo is just dumb and deters casuals away. So T8 having easier movement as I said earlier...is a good change.
It's fine to be a casual but that's why ranked matches exists.. Ppl who are at low ranks will be playing against their own rank.. The problem is that average/below average players want to have a chance against ppl who put much effort into the game just to leave after a few months
Plus catering to those elitists would reduce the sales. Not to mention your gamepad would wear out faster with harder inputs. Anyways wasn't tag 2 an example of that from what I have heard?
@@Jin_is_poor_mans_kazuyano, ranked match is for those who want to get better, but since Fighting games usually have no other options for fun, that’s what casuals are forced to play What you’re not getting is that KBD makes to where low level Tekken is slow and boring, but getting to a higher level is too difficult, and There’s nothing good about that
@@redhood2594bro what are you talking about I hope u aware they were good players even without Korean backdash. All Namco was to do is removed defensive game and turn it into garbage random ultra aggressive game
Casuals don’t need to play at a high level. I’m not going to complain I can’t play high level tennis. I’ll practice and play people at my level. I won’t have access to high level skills and techniques, but I’m not a pro or semi pro tennis player. Saying that we should change the rules to allow the casual tennis player the illusion that they’re playing well simply waters down and ruins the game.
I'm hoping cross play feels good when t8 comes out. Im on ps5 and it felt like PC opponents had lag. It's concerning to hear that PC responds better than platform hopefully this doesn't make cross play unplayable. As far as the movement, I think nerfing kbd and buffing regular backdash could change things at high level gameplay. It will be interesting to see if players like Arslan are stronger on infinite stages in t8
If backdash is dead then, that won't affect me since I don't use it, what about sidestepping? Almost all the characters seem to have strong sidestepping and strong counters. Sidestepping and Counterplay is what I enjoy more anyway
@@walmartian422or maybe spending hours of your life improving your ability to move backwards in a game is insane and not something normal people do? like damn they didn’t even take it out entirely
