Kreia - The Futility of Ideology - A Brief Character Study 

I agree, the Old Republic history is awesome! The Disney trilogy is a failure in terms of Star Wars lore. The Jedi Knight games Jedi Academy and Jedi Outcast do a better job with post Return of the Jedi lore. Not to mention the comics and graphic novels. Mara Jade Skywalker and Darth Caedus were far better characters then Rey and Kylo Ren were. Disney ruin every franchise they've acquired. They ruined both Star Wars and Marvel. I disregard any Star Wars lore written after 2012 and dismiss it as non canon because George Lucas did not write the main characters and it does not have plots that make any sense in the grand aspect of the franchise.

Until you remember vitiates brainwahsing revan and the exile being jobbed borderline offscreen.

She's stopod.

​@@Th3BigBoy What's a stopod is that like a nerf herder

@@morbidlyobeserobocop3038 You are very smurty pants!

​@@Th3BigBoy no u stopod.

@@Kevin-jb2pv Yes. Me stopod but you stipid.

I think that was the point of the dark side cave. It was trying to conflate the two in order to turn you.

"Worse than death, because at least a rotting corpse feeds the beasts and insects."

I'd love to see her played by Natalie Dormer, who played Olenna Tyrell in Game of Thrones. She'd be great for the part.

@@Kevin-jb2pv Natalie Dormer played Margaery, the granddaughter. Diana Rigg was the one that played Olenna -- sadly, she had already passed away back in 2020.

I agree, while some of Kreia's viewpoints are definitely nihilistic, to reduce her entire philosophy to "Star Wars Nihilism" would be foolish.

She is cold and manipulative, though. She tramples everyone and anyone. The only person she really cares about are Surik and Revan, and even the former she manipulates and deceives

@Mackey It is possible she wanted it do die until she saw all that the Exile could be. If the Force's will could be denied, then it didn't need to die.

Kreia draws heavily from Nietzsche’s philosophy, but she is not a nihilist, just as Nietzsche wasn’t either. She wants to kill the “god” of the Star Wars universe, but not because she believes there’s no meaning, but because she wants the galaxy to find its own meaning, free from the will of the force. Further comparing to Nietzsche, I suppose you could call the Exile Kreia’s version of the Übermensch, one who forges their own path and destiny freely. I think it’s very fitting considering that KOTOR’s an RPG.

@@hammerheadtheseawing3263 Absolutely, and importantly, she knows that life currently has a meaning under the Force. That is her problem. It is not a self-selected meaning, it is an unchosen assigned meaning that can destroy everything you know and love because of factors you never chose to be a part of. You're a pawn in it's grand game. It's the fusion of "you pass butter" and "a man chooses, a slave obeys", wanting to kill god for nonconsensually using everyone as toys and puppets. It's as close as you can get to the fictional characters being horrified that they're fictional characters without it getting meta like that.

I'm glad there's other people who, like me, cannot get enough kotor

Hey man thanks for the comment! No worries on your English I understand it perfectly. As for the dilemma of apathy, I think you make some good points however I still wouldn't be so quick to assume what Kreia would agree with. As I said, I don't necessarily think Kreia would teach apathy, I'm just not sure she would necessarily agree with "apathy is death". As you said, if we take no action, our companions would slaughter themselves in the name of dogma. Kreia, I believe, would actually prefer you allow that to happen than arbitrarily select a "side" and thus lowering yourself to their level. Not to mention, if taken literally within the context of the cave, the "correct" answer (in Kreia's mind) is usually the one which turns all of the visions hostile and thus apathy could be seen as the "correct" answer. As for the Revan thing I was primarily disappointed not because the MMO didn't add much, but because it took much away. By having Revan "brainwashed" by Vitiate rather than what was presented in Kotor 2, it takes away from the idea that Revan turned to the dark side out of necessity to unite the galaxy, weakening his character and the story of Kotor 2 massively. Either way, I appreciate your comment friend.

@@probablyswifty209 Cool! Since I really like talking about Kotor, I will just say that if I were to write the continuation for the MMO, I would never have written the Revan book. Instead I would start the MMO as it did, with the empire attacking a few centuries later, and throughout the 8 stories, I would have installed journals and holocrons, where the players would slowly piece together a story (not very detailed) about how Revan and Meetra Surik waged a shadowy war against the Empire (in the kind of obscure way that Kreia often talked about past wars to make them more epic) at the peak of it's power, when it was probably able to overtake the republic. They even made political aliances and created artificial powerplays to the point where they created an opening along with plenty of allies (they were both natural leaders after all) and they met the Godlike emperor in battle, where Meetra managed to wound his connection to the force and they both willingly sacrificed themselves to Kill him (Revan's final sacrifice). Then his far less powerful successor could not unite them and the Empire was in turmoil for centuries, during which time the republing was recovering from the mandalorian wars (as planned by both characters, and Meetra's companions were recreating the jedi order, since they were the lost jedi). Now it does not sound very impressive, but I believe that if you managed to add only a few personal messages from the characters, and a few ghost appearences ingame to help the main characters it would add a lot to the mysterious atmosphere around Revan, who in my opinion should never be treated as a character after the first game, but rather as a legend. You know, the classic less is more. Also, one more problem with Kreia, is that her conclusion, that the Force is pertty much the vilain, betraying every side when the time comes in order to maintain balance is spot on, and the story is 4000 years b4 the movies, so her knowledge had to be lost somewhere in time, accurate as it was. So I would also put an easter egg, where Kreia has hidden several Holocrons of her teachings in the Gallaxy, and People could come across them whenever.... Books, games, comics, movies etc. sorry for going on and on... but you know... it's Star Wars.

Yea I’m pretty sure you are correct. I suppose in my drunken stupor I failed to take into account the fact that Kreia herself said that to the Jedi council. Thanks for letting me know!

@@probablyswifty209 as far as I'm concerned, darkside Revan is the canon one. He's this sort of Grand admiral Thrawn who, for a moment, did consider to abandon his old ways. But as he saw the little self-control the Republic held within its own structure, he decided to once again return to the Darkside.

@@JabamiLain More accurately, mostly Dark Side, with some major Light Side choices where Dark Side choices have no benefit. His actions were motivated by what he believed was most beneficial rather than adhering to a singular ideology or teaching. He learned the teachings of his enemies to learn their strengths and weaknesses, and in turn find out how to exploit them. The Dark Side has power to him, but he also learned that sometimes strength and control isn't the solution. I believe Revan canonically chose to destroy the Starforge later, only because fighting to control it and the Sith would prove difficult when Malak's followers were taught to constantly plot to betray their master's when given the opportunity. They would constantly challenge him for control of the Starforge and the Empire, except for when they are distracted by a common enemy. Light Side Revan destroys Malak's Empire by destroying the Star Forge, but Dark Side Revan in Kotor 2 seemed to have abandoned his Sith followers on Korriban to collapse without leadership when he disappeared to face the True Sith. Malak's Empire was not the army he needed, he wanted followers he could trust to wait for his call when he returns. Not people who would forget their loyalties to him without constant reminders.

Thanks very much I am glad you enjoyed it

Much appreciated brother

Thanks man! I’m glad you enjoyed it

Much of Kreia's philosophy is more or less based on a multitude of real world philosophies but molded into a Star Wars format with "the force". One reason I love KOTOR 2 so much is that by making the nature of reality a tangible "force" it is far easier to have deeper discussions on reality, it's just a shame that very few Star Wars IP's bother.

I don’t believe that’s gonna happen

Actually it will

@@probablyswifty209 thank y for changing your mind

I’m glad you enjoyed my friend

Yes, I do believe I vaguely remember that from the game. Thanks for reminding me :)

I agree with this. Kreia also specifically talks about how close Zez-Kai Ell was to giving up the force, which would make him probably the least indoctrinated of the three.

Amen brother, amen. When Disney took over and relegate everything into legend, taking out the crap that drag Revan through in the MMO is the only bright spot.

I’ve watched them a bit I feel but I don’t remember all too well

By not destroying malachor V, Kotor 1 and 2 fundamentally change. First off, sion and nihilus are non existent seeing as they were born of the echo which originated from malachor’s destruction. Secondly, meetra surik would’ve never been cut off from the force as she did, meaning she too would never of reached her abilities as in Kotor 2, though she would still likely be a Jedi. What would happen to Kreia I have no idea. However, if we assume the republic wins the war anyways (and revan never turns) then Kotor 1 and 2 never happen. This does, however, open up the galaxy to attack from the phantom threat from the unknown regions (the true sith). If you follow SWTOR canon, that means the infinite empire (although I don’t because I hate SWTOR lol)

@@probablyswifty209 Well I’ve started continuing the K.O.T.O.R.3 fanfic, here’s the backstory, not much different from the S.W.T.O.R Revan novel I feel. Copy & paste comment: Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic) (Backstory) Meetra Surik has ended the Dark Wars after defeating the Sith Triumvirate. The planet of Malachor V was destroyed when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated once again. Meetra and some of her companion’s started rebuilding the Jedi Order, bringing the life to it after the Jedi were nearly wiped out by the Sith Triumvirate. (A year passed) T3 reveal’s to Meetra that he know’s about Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabouts, but wouldn’t tell her unless Bastila is with them. Meetra & T3 went to talk with Bastila of Prodigal Knight Revan’s whereabout’s. T3 reveal’s that Prodigal Knight Revan is planning on something, something to fight the true Sith. He wanted T3 to tell everyone, remaining Jedi and the Republic of the True Sith Empire. [Showing a hologram of Prodigal Knight Revan’s message] He talk’s about how the True Sith Empire is even worse then what he remembered when he was Darth Revan. Their Sith Trooper’s are stronger then Darth Revan’s, they’re specially trained to fight the Jedi and resist the power of the Light Side. These Sith Lord’s and their order are far more vicious, powerful, uses a specially designed Crossgaurd Lightsaber that they wield, but believe more of the power of the Dark Side is enough to conquer and destroy the Jedi. Their ship’s are far more powerful, even their weakest ship’s are far stronger then even the greatest that the Republic has. This is the same Sith that existed 3,000 year’s ago and fought the Republic from the Great Hyperspace War. This Sith Empire, it’s ruled over by something far worse, powerful and terrifying. [End of Prodigal Knight Revan message] Bastila told Meetra that she sent T3 to go with Prodigal Knight Revan and must’ve returned to known space after being attacked when trying to return to the Republic. When Prodigal Knight Revan speak’s of something that is “far worse, powerful and terrifying”, she is reminded of something. She tell’s Meetra that she share’s a bond with Prodigal Knight Revan, and because of that, his vision is shared with her. She saw a vision that of something she couldn’t understand, something she couldn’t describe. She wanted to go with Meetra, but she has a child (Venar) to take care off so she put her trust in Meetra to find Prodigal Knight Revan. She give’s Meetra Darth Revan mask’s, worn during the Mandalorian Wars up until the Jedi Civil War. She hid it so Prodigal Knight Revan couldn’t regain all of Darth Revan’s memories at once, still she believe’s he’s close to gaining all of Darth Revan’s memories. (A day later) Meetra took the Ebon Hawk, brought along some of her companion’s (T3, Bao-Dur’s Remote & HK). She then starting venturing off far, far deep into the Unknown Region’s, following the path of where Darth Revan & Darth Malak once went when they became the Dark Lord’s of the Sith. The difference start’s with the prologue. Star Wars: Knights of the old Republic 3 - The heart of Darkness (fanfic) [Torkross - prologue planet no.1] It has been a month since Meetra had left Republic space, she has ventured deep into Unknown Regions. She rested within the Ebon Hawk, then started to feel the Dark Side, but the thing is that she isn’t on a planet. Meetra is confused, concerned, she believe’s that she had entered the Sith Empire territory. But how can the Dark Side even be felt in space, not only that but doesn’t feel like it’s in just the area Meetra is in. It could be spread even further, maybe even throughout the entire galaxy, but how she asked herself. She put’s on her robe’s, grab’s her Purple Lightsaber and head’s to the Cockpit. Continue to travel throughout the empire and continue’s to feel the Dark Side. Meetra then sense’s a ship heading toward’s her way and was about to activate the HyperDrive to get out of there. However the Sith ship (called the Chaos Star) arrived and attack the Ebon Hawk and was damaged. Meetra drove the ship toward’s a planet and away from the Chaos Star, she crashed land into a mountain of a planet called Torkross. Meetra managed to keep the Ebon Hawk intact but it is still extremely damaged, she doesn’t believe that she can continue riding it. She and her companion’s (T3, Remote and HK) got out of the Ebon Hawk, Meetra feel’s the threat coming and they run off, hiding. Meetra use’s Force Cloak in order to hide from the Sith that are coming for her. She see’s a large city ahead, Meetra and her companion’s hid within a cave, which lead to the city. They traveled deep into the cave, fought off against beast’s and found their way into a tunnel which then lead into an underground mining facility which the worker’s are slave’s. These slave’s are mining for metal while in a very dangerous place and are looked over by these Sith Trooper’s who are far more dangerous then the once Darth Revan and the Sith Triumvirate had. She couldn’t stand and watch but she know’s she can’t fight against them, it’s too risky and so she reluctantly stealth their way around the facility and got out of there and found their way onto the surface of the city. This city reminded her of Nar Shaddaa, however it’s even worse, it is strong with the Force yet so lifeless and dangerous. City is so muted, darken grey, sky is very dark, it’s like nighttime but even darker. She travel’s through the city, yet while hiding and see’s Sith Trooper’s all over, no civilian’s, just slave’s and doesn’t feel like the world has any freedom to anyone. Prodigal Knight Revan was right, it feel’s like the Sith are focusing on making the Empire extremely powerful. They head into a building, head’s to the docking bay, tried to steal a ship but Meetra was hit by an immense Force Lightning and went unconscious. T3, Remote and HK were about to fight back but were quickly damaged.

I am working on a kotor 1 vid right now :D

Hey thanks for the comment! If dismissing SWTOR, as far as I know the KOTOR timeline ends at KOTOR 2 in which it is hinted that the exile goes to find Revan on his quest somewhere in the unknown regions. What this quest was likely would've been featured in the since cancelled KOTOR 3. While I admit a somewhat unsatisfying conclusion to the timeline, I would still rather have an ambiguous ending than deal with all of the strange plot choices found in SWTOR. Of course, not all of them are awful, I just particularly dislike how most KOTOR characters were treated.

hopefully the spell works

Hey Sam, thanks very much I’m glad you liked the video! I will admit I tend to get a bit carried away with the music but in my defense the volume is always a bit different in the actual editing software before I render it, I will take greater caution in the future to make it right however. As for the mic quality you are absolutely right, I have moved since the kotor 2 video and my room has far more echo lmao. Either way I appreciate the feedback greatly!

@@probablyswifty209 What editing software do you use? Adobe Premiere i think has some pretty good tools to auto-adjust volumes and even have the music DUCK when you're talking. Not sure about Da Vinci tho...

@@probablyswifty209 What mic are you using by the way? I think most issues with microphones can be managed by good mic technique. Of course, not every mic is the same so I'd need to know what it is first :p

SamBlips I am currently using the free version of Da Vinci Resolve and a MAONO brand USB 192KHZ/24Bit microphone. I would provide more details but I’m in class right now lmao. The mic was around 50 bucks all things included but I purchased it on sale so it was normally more expensive. I am sure I could equalize my audio within the editing software itself but I’m just not very good at it as I’m sure you could tell.

I understand and you are correct, “brainwashed” probably wasn’t the correct term but i was just oversimplifying it. The point of what i was saying though was that the removal of Revan’s kotor 2 story greatly diminishes the character and the overall themes present in the old republic setting, as explained in the video.

They were a bunch of uncoordinated buffoons. Kreia and Nihlus weren't true sith and Sion was easy to talk down. The Original Sith and Reconstituted Sith were best.

@@matro2 Yet they did what no other Sith before them could do, although the Jedi/Republic were super weak after several wars, they did the first Jedi Purge.

@@S1mply6 Pretty sure Malak set that up.

I understand what you mean, in fact, so does Kotor 2. The philosophy you have outlined is practically exactly in line with how Visas views things and explains her consistent debate with Kreia. I’m not saying either one is correct, but if I were to play devil’s advocate and argue from Kreia’a perspective I would say that although it may be true that having companions is a sort of “strength” it is not one which comes from within or one you can learn from. By doing things yourself, you become stronger and more resilient. By relying on others, you make yourself, in a way, dependent on them (no matter how small that may be). Of course, these are the views of Kreia, not mine. Personally, I would say that are both are correct to certain degrees. I tend to side more with visas on this point but I would say that if you can get something done on your own, there is certainly a strength to that.

@@probablyswifty209 Appreciate the response, the contents of it even moreso. I agree with you and Kreia about how we can grow dependent on companions. My idea was that we also grow dependent on our limbs, just as we do our friends. And that the dependence ultimately strengthens us for a net positive. It really is simply two different mindsets, I'd say. One sees the strengths of interdependence, and one sees the strengths of independence. Regardless of if I agree with all her points, I do love Kreia because she makes you think.

Kreia hates the force, and yet she uses the force, she *needs* the force in order to be able to see. For her eyes are blind. I don't think of this as hypocrisy on her part, but rather, I think she sees it as an unavoidable weakness within herself, I think it frustrates her. But just because it is unavoidable, that does not mean it is not a weakness. In fact, you could argue it makes it even more of a weakness. I think this also apply to what you say about our limbs. We *have* to rely on our limbs in order to accomplish the things we wish to accomplished. True enough, there are people who live without some or all their limbs or who are blind, or deaf, but while they are stronger in the sense that they do not rely in the limbs, in exchange they are forced to rely on other things,. The very reason we have ramps for people on wheel chairs, or blind canes, or braile text, etc is to accommodate for people who are disabled. In this sense, the weakness is unavoidable, abled people are weak because they depend on their limbs/senses, disabled people are weak because while they don't have one or more limbs/senses to depend on, they still depend on other things, be those things tools to allow them to more easily interact with the world or with others, or be those things other people to create a structure for accommodate for the special necessities that come from being disabled. So I think that to Kreia your own strength is specially your ability to use the tools at your disposal to achieve your goals, without relying on those tools. Be those 'tools' parts of yourself or your body, such as your limbs, be they actual tools, or be they your allies or friends, or even your enemies, if you can manage to use them to further your goals. I think she would say that there are none who are infinitely strong, who can rely on nothing at all besides themselves, and indeed, if you attempt this to its fullest, you'll end up following the path of the sith, attempting to accrue power to control all there is, but in truth be controlled by your own desire to control. Yet that, none the less, you should strive to be more independent rather than reliant.

@@nivircescrittore8304 I love your thoughts and I agree. Very well spoken. Hell, you've got me wanting to do a millionth playthrough. Thought provoking!

your dad drowned

I felt that way the first time around but I grew to love her lmao

It’s hard to say. I’d think that Kreia would respect Jolee to an extent considering he refused to follow the dogma of the Jedi order. However, I think that they would have very different outlooks on how to deal with situations. Particularly, I think Jolee would find Kreia to be a miserable old woman and Kreia would see Jolee as somewhat of a weak-willed fool. Thing is, Kreia sees basically everyone as an idiot so comparatively speaking they would get along better than most.

@@probablyswifty209 Thank’s for the answer, I was thinking about how Jolee wouldn’t agree with Kreia like on Nar Shaddaa with the Exile helping someone with credit’s.

@@probablyswifty209 Sorry for asking more question’s, but I feel like your answer’s are staisfying (misspelling) due to how knowledgable you are of Kreia and seem’s like for the other cast of both K.O.T.O.R game’s. Idk if you’d answer some here, short and sweet to the point (if that’s possible). 1. What would Kreia think of Anakin / Darth Vader as a character / person and his life? 2. What would Kreia think of the K.O.T.O.R.1 cast? 3. What would Kreia think of Yoda & Palpatine? 4. What does Kreia think of Player / Prodgial Knight Revan? 5. Would Kreia respect Jolee the most but under Darth Revan & Meetra Surik / Jedi Exile?

@@75JUNAKI Very true. I’d say the biggest disagreement between Kreia and Jolee would be on love, romantic or otherwise (love for thy neighbor). Jolee, much like Visas in Kotor 2, would advise you to take great care of your relationships with others, since they would see that interconnection as a strength. Kreia, on the other hand, would think that no matter how apparently immediate and beneficial, relying on others is a weakness. Whichever is correct is left purposefully vague and one of the many reasons I love these games.

@@75JUNAKI For your second comment, give me one moment and I will do my best to respond lol

but also, I only bothered to comment *for* engagement because Video WAS good, Did Like and Comment~

if i recall correctly i only mentioned tlj as a point of contrast rather than just throwing it in there but yea i do get that tlj hate is pretty stale at this point lmao

@@probablyswifty209 yeah and I happened to have just watched another video on it right before hand that also brought it up and I'm in the minority camp of liked the sequels for what they were, sure it's no KOTOR, or Deceived but I had fun. And I think tlj has the best cinematography in the films so it hits me weird y'know

@@katmannsson that’s totally cool i mean i happen to really dislike the sequels but who am i to stop someone from enjoying something meant to be fun. for instance as much as i think rise of skywalker is an awful movie it was a super fun watch with me and my buddy when we saw it in theaters. i just wanted to point out tlj as a poor example of subverting expectations and the idea of “deconstructing” star wars whereas kotor 2 did it much better in my opinion.

it more so has to do with the idea that following an arbitrary set of ideals rather than doing what is right in any given situation weakens people. obviously, what is “right” depend on the individual but the rejection of imprisoning oneself to a single set of beliefs is a core teaching of kreia.

@@probablyswifty209 the core idea of Kreia is betrayal, meaning ironically the idea that one cannot trust any idea less one be betrayed eventually just as Kreia was betrayed, and that is supposedly the ultimate secret of power. I deny that, the idea of truth is absolute. As any teaching itself is the truth also, so the idea that ideology is futile is saying any teaching is futile, a self contradiction. Truth is inexorably God, forever. Embrace it or dispair. The truth is that the infinite truth is difficult to impossible to hold by finite beings, therefore there is always a higher degree of truth to be had, and holding to any half truth is of course betrayal to the idea of truth which is an endless journey. As Jesus Christ said, be a passerby