Labour hit the ground running, more Reform drama, and criminalising waiters | Podcast #78 

As an ex criminal lawyer I can confirm that if you told someone, who you were told had a nut allergy, that there were no nuts in something which you either knew had nuts in it, or weren't sure if it had nuts in it (ie you knew there was a risk of nuts and you went on to take the risk and lie), you would probably be guilty of manslaughter and could go to prison (whether you did or not, probably depends on culpability -eg you did it for a laugh to see what would happen - but I haven't checked the sentencing guidance on it). If it was a genuine mistake then probably not manslaughter (unless it amounted to gross negligence manslaughter on the facts of the case), it would largely depend on the evidence of a reckless intention

I liked how Ed was envisioning a waiter making a mistake whereas Ava was imagining a moustache twirling Prett employee laughing maniacally as they sprinkle nuts into a poke bowl

Ava wants to enact the police state that the telegraph think starmer will

The worlds gone made, Cant Ed enjoy a nice succulent Chinese meal in peace?

Surely it should be: Company didn't list an allergen, someone dies - not the waiters fault, big company fine, criminal charges for someone in corporate who is responsible for the allergen info Waiter didn't bother to check the allergen info - waiters fault, treated in the same way as driving while looking at your phone and knocking someone down.

massive argument about manslaughter via allergies we are so back #teamed

I work as a Food Safety Officer, and whilst the Pret case that resulted in Natasha’s Law dealt with a large corporation, I see countless small businesses that are unaware of how allergens affect people. Often times this is lack of training, which is addressed. However, sometimes it is sheer negligence and there tends to be a degree of disbelief surrounding the severity allergens can pose which fosters a lack of care. Due to the regulations and requirements involved in food law, it is an offence when food is placed on the market that is unsafe. The legal definition of unsafe food is classed as being injurious to health and unfit for human consumption (Retained EU Regulation 178/2002, Article 14, Para. 1, 2, 2(a), 2(b)). Supporting this, it is also an offence to provide food for consumption to the purchaser which is not of the nature, substance or quality requested by the purchaser (The Food Safety Act 1990, Article 14, Para. 1). Now the onus lies with the food business operator, aka the owner of the business. Before Natasha’s Law was introduced, it was difficult to prosecute business owners, large and small, as legislation lied mainly around food that was being prepared for a customer, rather than pre-packed foods such as the sandwich Natasha ate with an undeclared allergen, resulting in her death. Thanks to Natasha’s Law and the high profile nature of the case, it is now much clearer and there are greater powers to ensure that businesses providing any type of food to the general public are able to be held accountable when they have dropped the ball. Now, does this mean I agree with Ava that failing these aspects of Food Safety Law should result in imprisonment? If someone has died, yes, absolutely. Thankfully to Sean’s point, waiting staff and others in the industry likely to be on minimum wage barely supporting themselves or family, cannot be prosecuted under this legislation as they would not be registered as the Food Business Operator. So waiting staff and general coffee shop employees can relax, Ava cannot send you to prison.

you are both right, if its an accident and you didnt know they had an allergy no you shouldnt go to prison, if you did it knowing they did yes you should because its a form of assault knowingly causeing harm to some one.

Ava: you should go to jail for giving people nuts Also Ava: *routinely poisons self using nuts*

I do think Ava is massively conflating negligence and intent with the allergy stuff. It's one thing to accidentally lapse on a safety check (bad, shouldn't be criminal), purposefully ignoring it is totally different

In Ava's Britain you would go to prison for being bad at your job haha

Ava, you're wrong about your Pret. waiter point - the entire reason for the issue was the packaging, which was not labelled correctly - how on earth can a waiter be responsible for that? If anyone should be punished for that mistake, it's the people responsible for labelling/manufacturing, not the waiters (who have a pretty rough gig in the hospitality industry anyway).

as someone who'd worked as a chef and a waiter for 3 years each at a chain restaurant I'd suggest Ava overestimates how organised companies are re: allergies! we only sometimes knew where our allergen list was located... good case for restaurant owners/CEOs (I guess managers too but they may make the same argument) whatever going to jail for not prioritising things like that, but I'd think that's pretty harsh on the chefs and waiters who are incompetent purely because their owners have no organisation whatsoever lmao

We want the nut poll. #teamEd

There's a reason the law differentiates between negligence and intent, and why criminal law includes the necessity to establish mens rea. If it's wholly deliberate, Ava's point make sense. If it anything less than that it's bordering on bonkers.

Ed going to prison for not letting Ava smoke? This will not stand. The uprising begins now. #TeamEd

8:13 You have this wrong. The Tories were the ones that stopped sentencing prisoners to help with the overcrowding. It never made any headlines. Starmer just mentioned this at his first speech as PM, and how outrageous he thought it was.

I'm anaphylactic to milk.. if I ask someone to make me a drink with soya milk and they can't be bothered to get it and just use regular milk, and I die. They should go to prison for manslaughter. Because they were told and disregarded the danger then they killed me. Eds take is reason I cannot eat out, because people like ed are everywhere not taking allergies seriously. Thanks Eva for speaking some sense.

Agree with Ava, but she has explained it shockingly 😅. There’s a difference between an accident and negligence, in a position of responsibility (preparing and serving food to people with no way to verify the information they are given) they bear responsibility IMO.

That is his worst take ever. Depraved negligence is a criminal offence.

It’s negligence. When you forget to label something or don’t inform a customer about an allergen that could decide someone’s life or dth, that should be mnslghtr. I’m with Ava! 💯 per cent!

I'm with Ava. Everyone in the industry knows how dangerous allergies are and if it goes wrong it's either down to negligence or it's deliberate. We absolutely do send people to jail for that. This is Ed's worst take ever.

The peanut discussion was really irritating - Eva and Ed were talking cross-purposes. Eva was *clearly* describing both murder (knowing and intending someone to die from an anaphylactic reaction) and gross negligence manslaughter (lying about dangerous allergens). Ed thought she was talking about mistakes and blithe ignorance.

I'm with Ava on this. My wife has a nut allergy. Sorry Ed it's criminal negligence if they don't check on being ask or lie.

What's the average body count for a dinner party at Eds?

GF has coeliac disease. Sadly it can be linked to cancer and other diseases if it is not managed properly. A lot of restaurants are pretty good about it now, but we have to be very considerate about it. On the positive side, Mexican food is generally gluten free.

Viewing hospitality staff as kgb level assassins feels like such an upper middle class take.

Ed is right, Ava's desire to jail minimum wage workers if they make a mistake and her assumption they are all gleeful mum murderers is her worst take yet 😂😂😂

It's called criminal negligence and yes they should go to prison if they put nuts in food that are labelled not to have them.

How refreshing to see the grownups in charge, rather than successive cabinets of incompetent, gaslighting liars.

As someone who works in food, I believe Ava is correct!

peanut-gate is exactly the bollox i need after a crappy day, cheers Ed and Ava ❤

On nuts: vocalized sentence "lets see if they are really allergic"

Of course the restaurant should be responsible for the food they serve.

Prisons are a place for rehabilitation, argued in this episode alone, not just punishment, you cant rehabilitate an incompitent waiter, just teach them better, give them like 300 hours community service and they have a criminal record for the rest of thier lifes, so will struggle to get any other job anyway. Cant belive Avas just 100% focused on punishment after suporting Timpson, makes zero sense. #Teamed

Actually insane that the Tories thought it was cost effective to send £0.5B to Rwanda in a measure of performative cruelty, that didn't work, to attempt to reduce illegal immigration... I thought it was less than that. Imagine what could have been done with that money instead... Small government my arse

I have an allergy, I went to a restaurant with my friends. I asked the person taking my order if the stake and ale pie had tomato in it. He left the table came back and stated he had checked and that the pie was safe for me. Approximately 7 mins after my first fork full my lips and thoat stareto swell. It was clear to all that I was going in to anaphylaxis, the manager ran to the table when my friends told him to call an ambulance because I was having an allergy reaction he demanded to know why I hadn't asked if the meal contained tomato. In a chorus of voices he was told "but she did" the waiter had not even bothered to ask the kitchen. At 18 mins I was being resuscitated in the back of an ambulance. Tell me again how that was not criminal?

No one should go to prison for a mistake, though a line needs to be drawn between mistakes and negligence. If a waiter or chef accidently mixes up two dishes and gives the allergic person the one with nuts in, I don't think they should go to prison, mistakes happen and at the end of the day they are not paid enough to deal with that level of risk are they? A restaurant owner who knowingly bends the rules or doesn't have correct procedure in place is a different story though, there could be a case for them going to prison.

The managing director of pret should have gone to jail for corprate manslaghter. Thewaiter is not responcible for the labeling.

This debate did my nut in! There's a difference between wilful negligence and a mistake made by badly trained staff/poorly organised workplace. Ava and Ed didn't seem to want to make the distinction!

The 'nut' debate was the electiom analysis I didn't know I needed!! Ava will be flying people off to Rwanda next😂

As an allergy sufferer, the way people do not seem to give a fuck about poisoning me is absolutely terrifying. What is wrong with everyone.

This is where the benefit of age comes in. Back in the mid seventies it was standard for regular sessions, of effective tooth brushing technique, to be scheduled at primary school level (in primary schools). We even had local dentists, visiting, fetching freebies and talking about the latest advances in and theories about dental hygiene. We often had to practice brushing our teeth as a whole class. It was a bit of an ordeal, actually, but I think it worked at inculcating in us a desire to do it properly at home. That this is no longer standard might have more to do with spending cuts than dentists. Also, some parents fully knacker themselves trying to get their kids to care about their own teeth. Teaching dental hygiene, in schools, needs to be reinstated as the long term effects are so dire - I mean, it's not just the teeth any more but actual heart disease and sometimes death.

People have gone to prison for negligence for unlawfully killing someone with a peanut allergy. Megan Lee died in 2017, the takeaway owners went to prison for 2/3 years. 'Mrs Justice Yip told the workers that Lee was responsible enough to highlight her allergies when placing the order, but “sadly the same responsibility was not at your end”.'

It's quite fun imagining Ava in a jury and dominating all the other serious and scared looking jurors during deliberation

Oli still in hiding after his parties crushing defeat i see

Ava's Nut Law would result in her sending herself to prison 😂

100% with Ed (and Timpson) on the nuts... Ava's take is retributive, not at all pragmatic

I've never been so Team Ava. I once told the waiter at an indian restaurant that I had a nut allergy, and therefore that I didn't want my butter chicken to have nuts as garnish that was standard there for butter chicken. It came out with nuts on top so I sent it back. The waiter took it away and came straight back, and they had literally just stirred the nuts in. It was so obvious I knew without eating any, but required me to complain to a manager, and they had to go and make a fresh one, because yes that's exactly what the waiter had done. So many people without allergies are so unconcerned about it. I also ended up sitting in the cockpit of an international flight as a teenager in the 90's because it turned out the meal choice on the plane was Satay chicken and there was no real process for coordinating passenger needs with on board food at the time. It was basically communicate with the cabin crew! Seems completely unbelievable now but times were different.

Ava's opinion on sending hospitality workers to jail for mistakes is such a batshit take. Maliciously and knowingly serving an allergen is another instance, has she ever worked in food?

The horrendous delays in the justice system are for a number of reasons. 1/ police delays bringing the charges to the CPS 2/massive court backlogs because the Tories closed down courts and sold them off It's not to do with no space in prisons - although that's a separate issue.

I would be interested in Ed's take on a very real scenario I had. So I have a milk allergy, straight to life threatening. Once i ate at a 100% vegan cafe, still made sure to check for allergens and speak to the waitress Turns out the cafe was knowingly using cows milk in their soup. They were literally adding milk in the kitchen. The chef and owner were both aware but decided to not inform customers and intentionally withhold the information from the allergen charts In that scenario - I struggle to see how it could be anything other than manslaughter if I died. There is clear negligence. I fail to see how that is any different to any other form of manslaughter. I think Ed overestimates how often these things are genuine mistakes, and how often they are through a lack of shits to give. A genuine accident shouldn't be a criminal offence. Intentionally misleading negligence should be a criminal offence. Seems to me the line is quite clear

While I agree with Ava on principle, I can't get behind how she's basically arguing from emotion. It seems extreme to target a waiter for simply serving food that they were told was allergen-free when it wasn't. In that case, the fault would lie on the chef for having deceived the waiter into believing that the food they were serving was safe for consumption. Obviously, a waiter that ignores allergy warnings should be prosecuted as that demonstrates either an intent to do harm or acting in complete negligence to the wellbeing of the customers.

Ava totally lost her (previously reasonably strong) argument by somehow claiming that negligence caused by human error in the context of Alton Towers ride safety is somehow totally fine... "Oopsy daisy, sorry you got no legs!! It was an accident!"

I do get Ava's point about levels of skill re: doctors and how we consider this, and that direct comparisons are not always that helpful. That being said, as a doctor myself, I can't help but feel like there is some truth in the comparison being made with baristas - for £14 an hour, our most junior colleagues are the ones manning hospitals overnight and being called to cardiac arrests etc. The skill set and level of responsibility over human lives just doesn't compare to our salary and that's the point being made.

If you have such a bad allaergy that if you touch something let alone eat it and you might die you shouldn't be eating anything that you didn't prepare yourself. Its unfortunate that the young girl died and also unfortunate that her parents did not prepare a meal for her for the travel plans they had. We have the labels now that say "by the way this might contain something that'll kill you" No one should be going to prison for further incidents like this. NOW... If I didn't like the person sitting beside me on the bus and they had an allergy. If I then rubbed a peanut into their eye and chucked one down their gob then obviously I should be arrested for their death. These are two different things and I totally agree with Ed's reaction lol.

Ed is so wrong. Negligence is a crime. A negligent bus driver or pilot or doctor would be imprisoned. The same would apply...

I used to be a baker who specialised in allergy friendly deserts and cakes. I put a full list of ingredients on the back of display cards and had symbols on the front with a sign explaining the symbols. Different sections for different allergies and a sign that said to please tell us if you have severe allergies and I would go to the cold storage and supply them with ones that had been contained in a sealed and completely separate box. I was incredibly careful. However, my colleagues did not seem to be as bothered and would often mix up serving tongs etc. Despite signs and colour coding. I put so many things in place to make it as safe for the customer and easy for my colleagues, and they still messed it up and didn't take it seriously. I really stressed to them how dangerous allergies could be and they still fucked up on a regular bases. I think if someone tells you they have a severe allergy in the kinda system I set up and you should be held personally responsible if anything happens to that customer.

ava is 100% correct, This is why we have health and safety, If If you take an action knowingly and negligently when there is a known risk of harm or death to another party this is a crime and it should be punishable by prison, It is not rocket science. This is because it's not an accident they have deliberately chosen to ignore the fact that this person has a allergy which could kill them, If this helps to explain it, the waitor accidentally gave them the wrong food which had nuts in it then this would be a mistake, an accident and therefore I don't think they would go to prison for that, It's still manslaughter but it would be hard to justify a custodial sentence.

Ava's take on the nut issue was either wrong or terribly argued IMO.

19:29 "Okay let me ask you this..... Harold Shipman" WHAAAAAT

Absolutely with Ava on this one!

Coeliac disease is an auto-immune disorder. Depending on the severity the sufferer can become very ill after eating something that is just contaminated with gluten, let alone something that is made with gluten. Coeliac is not just glorified IBS. Whilst I don't think there has to be a minister for the disease, places should take the dietary requirements of their patrons seriously. If they say it is gluten free, vegan or dairy free it should be the case.

Ava is completely right it's gross negligence

If someone makes a mistake they shouldn't go to prison.

If the waiter knows exactly what they are doing when they are serving a nut to someone that has an allergy, then that is murder. Since that is not the scenario that is being discussed, then it isn't murder! And if we are placing such huge amounts of pressure in a waiter to be risking their freedom when serving a subway then they should be paid more money!

In an old job, several of my clients were government departments, and I witnessed the transition from teas, coffees and biscuits at every client meeting, to literally only being offered tap water. We had to bring our own Hob Nobs! And the clients were so grateful for them! To be fair they were very apologetic about the lack of refreshments - it obviously wasn't the decision of the civil servants and they couldn't comprehend it. And this was all in the name of 'efficiency savings', as if cutting spend on refreshments was suddenly going to transform Whitehall into a lean, mean fighting machine.

To clarify on the junior doctors campaign and comparison with baristas - I think nobody was implying baristas should earn less but the reality is that in order to be a doctor in the UK, you must go to university for a minimum of 5 years and the personal responsibility and accountability you bear on day 1 of your job is greater than any barista.

This probably happens in medicine. Patient has allergy documented somewhere in notes. Gets given that medication. I don’t think those clinicians generally go to jail but there are, obviously professional consequences

Prison should not be used as revenge, it should be there to protect the public. Very simple.

I'm with Ed, it's absolutely mental to send someone to prison over an allergy, there is literally nothing prison is going to achieve with that person.

Ava should be writing the next Richard Osman crime novel with these ideas 😂

So so funny and so so good. Such uniquely British humour and dark comedy. Essential viewing for those who like things that are left field.

Ava is so comically wrong on the peanut/sesame thing. If someone deliberately puts an allergen in someone’s food, then yes, prison awaits. For any other scenario, no.

As someone whos worked in restaurants, ava is absolutely right about the nut thing!

I cant believe it, but I actually agree with Ava, criminal negligence resulting in death should carry a prison sentence

An unintentional act that results in harm is the literal definition of an accident.

As Tippson said, we have a love affair with putting people in prison.

Ava's correct. If you've been told that someone is at material risk of harm on consumption of an item, and you don't check allergens before serving them food, you've harmed them by omission

You go to do a bungee jump, and ask the operator who is up there with you if the rope is attached to the crane. In scenario A, the operator checks and sees that the rope isn’t attached, before knowingly telling you it’s attached when it isn’t. In scenario B, the operator appears to check but doesn’t do so properly, then tells you it’s attached without actually knowing whether it is or isn’t. In both scenarios you believe the operator and fall to a potential death. Should they be criminally charged in scenario A, B, both or none? If you only chose one scenario, how would we prove which one happened?

In the 80s, we had people come in to school to show us good dental hygiene, every year or two. And of course we had free dentistry for kids back then too.

I made a pro-ava comment and it has disappeared. Whitewash?

Finally, Ava’s true Reform colours come through.

Ava vs Ed on food allergies is hysterical. I’m kinda with both of them.

Out of all the shitty takes this podcast has seen, Ava's the worst one yet. It can only get worse if Oli chimes in and argues that the work experience waiter who accidentally causes someone's death does deserve her seat in the house of lords.

Ava hasn’t clearly never been overworked in a hospitality environment before.

You asked how many voted for Reform as a protest against Tories but maybe you should look at the poll of why people voted Labour.... The No1 reason at 47% was "To get the Tories out".

8:47 this bit about releasing prisoners reminds me of that bit about the "horse draper" from Krod Mandoon. 😆

for the specific case of the pret allergy - she bought a sandwich which didnt have sesames labelled on it, and no one on site was asked if it had sesames in it - that’s not the fault of the person that served her it, thats a corporate error, so sending them to prison is absolutely mental

I am an allergy suffering individual. If people went to prison giving me one of my (albeit, many) allergies, both my parents, my in-laws and my spouse would all be locked up right now. Accidents happen. Thankfully mine aren’t fatal and I can tell very quickly if I’m having a reaction. I think another problem with this is the gradation of allergy severity.

Ava is part of the police state that will lock up the woke brigade. I praise our new overlord Ava.

JUST GIVE THE BOOK TO THE CUSTOMER! simple. No problems ever. DO NOT TELL A CUSTOMER IF THERE IS ALLERGENS, LET THEM READ THE INFORMATION THEMSELVES. Its a serious matter, Ed isnt taking it serious enough and Ava seems to think its prison or nothing. Realistically, as the lawyer below has said, its nuanced.

when you work in the food industry you have a responsibility to not kill your customers, too many people are too unbothered about ingredients

Initially I agreed with Ava because Ed was being extremely blase about the question. But then he specified that he was talking about situations where there had not been gross negligence, and Ava just stuck her heels in while Ed was being increasingly reasonable. So Ed wins. It's also worth noting that if there has been gross negligence, manslaughter is already an imprisonable offence.

During a time where prisons are in crisis due to being over-filled and under-staffed, I think automatically throwing waiters in there for negligence would cause more problems than it solves. Of course they should be punished, but not automatic prison time without proving intent

As a former civil ssrvant I can indeed confirm there are no free coffee machines in Central Gov. At least in Nobel House, CO, or DOH.

We are constantly reminded that there are people at liberty who should have been kept separate. How can this be addressed if there's a push for huge releases?

This is actually Ava's third worst take after her stance on tinned tomatoes and building on land that harbours rare and vulnerable species.

Ava's take on the waiter going to jail in the case of accidental poisoning is actually mad.

Allergen labelling should be the responsibility of managers in hospitality similar to the laws around alcohol and serving people underage. "Whilst we make every effort to avoid cross contamination we cannot guarantee allergens are not present" is the line every business uses to abscond themselves of any legal responsibility whilst also excluding people with any of the 14 major allergies that hospo businesses need to be aware of. Coeliac disease is a seriously depressing illness. 80% of food products contain gluten and you have to spend all your time second guessing every piece of food offered to you by friends and family because so few people understand how serious the illness is. I remember when i was diagnosed the idea of losing a limb felt preferable to having to deal with the disease every single day