I'm pretty sure the elden beast came later, not on metyr, as a response to marike coming to power and shattering the original elden ring, which she then reforged her own to make the new age. Elden beast was there to control her and impose order, since Marika removed a facet of order from the original ring, something had to maintain the balance in the absence of a defined order. What source indicates elden beast rode metyr here? I could just be unaware. apologies. Your conclusion has a bit more nuance than others. You are so thorough in your inclusion of everything pre-dlc, not just the dlc alone. THANK YOU. I think you're right.
an addendum to why I think your conclusion that this is the serpent god is correct. Mesmer literally says in his phase two "...The abyssal serpent, shorn of light" - implying that yes, the light was "cut" and removed from the serpent.... which is what marika is doing in the trailer, hence, messmer must know what happened, as the abyssal serpent within him likely provides some degree of knowledge of the event. Chances are the seal of grace in his eye "blinded" him to the truth, and breaking it made him realize what was going on, like a switch, an awakening.
yup! dont get me wrong, i love the lore channels that came out from the original game. but this dlc has brought out some awesome new channels which would give other big channels a run for their money. like literalape mentioned, that prisoner video was amazing.
I really like the observation that Miquellas planned new age without agency has him making the same mistakes as Marika when she naively created a world she thought would be utopian, a World without death.
After seeing what happened in the Shaman village, I’d argue that Marika created this world without death not because she wanted to create a utopia but rather she feared losing those close to her as she lost pretty much her entire village to the Hornsent. Godwyn dying is what sent her over the edge and broke the Elden Ring.
@@PraiseTheGreatVoid Both are true, her treatment by the hornsent clearly formed her worldview, but it was also naive to think she could create a world without death.
It should be noted that at the time, Marika thought the Fingers were in direct contact with the Greater Will when she met them. We learnt in SotE that this is a lie.
@@PraiseTheGreatVoididk about that one Marika seems more cold then sappy during the age of the erdtree. I think her defiance to the greater will after disappearing to do some reflection is a more likely cause for the shattering then just being upset about Godwyn. (Who for all we know, she could have assisted in assassinating)
I also think that Miquella has this naïve vision of "compassion" being the solution is because he doesnt even aknowledge Death as a solution of all the pain that people suffers in that universe. Because Death is a notion probably alien to him.
Absolutely stunning depth of analysis. Stratified history is EVERYWHERE in Elden Ring, and it always seems to tell a story, too. Great job in translating that story into something understandable.
the play between light and dark in this dlc is fantastic. i think marika taking the golden threads (grace/light/gold) out of the godskin serpent (perhaps a constructed vessel for the serpent god eiglay) is echoed well in messmer’s referral to the abyssal serpent as “shorn of light”
great video! 11:48 I interpret "normalized" a bit differently. I see it as normalization in a mathematical or statistical sense, rather than a social one. Normalized as in the transformation of something into a normal or regular form. That is, a "normalized" current of the Crucible would refer to harnessing the raw and uneven power of the Crucible of all life into something understandable, useful, and castable.
Reminds me of how the erdtree order became the golden order and the incantations of the golden order fundamentalist require intelligence as well as faith.
Reminds me of how the erdtree order became the golden order and the incantations of the golden order fundamentalist require intelligence as well as faith.
Yeah like a normal of a plane. The spells base is a circular plane which spirals perpendicularly up. “Normalising” a circular current would result in a spiral stretching up or down. Up in this case
I missed this comment when I made mine, but I thought the same thing! if the devs had the geometric definition in mind that would explain why the spiral, circle, and arc faith incantations are shaped the way they are.
I have a theory related to this - that the Grafting of the Erdtree to the Great-Tree initially benefitted both trees, though the Erdtree supplanted the Great-Tree’s role in rebirth, the Great Tree’s roots passing the souls of the dead through to the Erdtree. But then, Marika removed the Rune of Death, which caused the Great Tree to wither, and it’s sap to cease flowing into the Erdtree
That would track with the lore that's established in the base game; that it was the removal of the Rune of Death that started the entire unbalancing of the Elden Ring, and led to the Shattering.
I believe fully that the Seduction and Betrayal of Marika is based off the potential that she was actually a Saint born from the ritual of the jars. The connection between alchemy Rebis theory of the Red King and White Queen resurfaces in the jar lore. It would too make sense that the Hornsent would have some respect towards Marika/Radagon if they were in fact recreated as a saint, and simply Marika/Radagon remembering the horrors they endured would never forgive the Hornsent. The figure of their saint finally come to fruition, only to lead them all to the slaughter they "deserved".
I believe that is why hornsent grandam is also called empyrean grandam. I believe she raised Marika after her birth as a succesful jar saint. Similar to alexander and jarbairn I believe she would be a new being without memory of the beings used to make her. That would explain her particular insults to marika, as a wanton strumpet. Its more fitting for an adoptive mother to call her a slutty slut than some unrelated person. I also think that this is being levied against her due to her first giving birth to Mesmer and Melina without another known partner, then marrying Godfrey. Godfrey was likely a mighty warrior of the highlander people. She married him and his image was rehabbed by the hornsent, changing his name, his dress, his manner of speaking. His warriors were rebranded as crucible knights, their faces hidden under helmets with horns obfuscating their origin as unhorned highlander warriors. This would also explain why an order named after the crucible has to quest to even know where the crucible was. This also mirrors the real origin of the king arthur's roundtable + knights, which Godfrey's story clearly draws inspiration from. An invented myth to legitimize a new ruler as somehow being kin with the ruled people despite being a foreign power.
That was dope! That archeological insight into the the three layers of Enir Ilim is so illuminating! You've got my imagination all fired up! I've been rather fixated on the Scadutree myself and haven't stumbled on much about it from the lore community leaving me thirsty for this kind of analysis. Very very glad youtube served this video to me and I gave it a click. Subbed and liked and what-notted.
I thought it was pretty clear that the clan that lost everything in the fire was the Bloodfiends (whatever they were before they were Bloodfiends, anyway) and the outter god they communed with was the formless mother.
It’s not that obvious. The language is different from the Bloodfiend Hexer Ashes for example. I think automatically tying that talisman to the bloodfiends is presumptuous at least.
XD I only just realized it recently and it was only through logic, the star forgers made weapons for the ascended and jars to store the stary ashes of war and spirit ashes, the crucible seemingly was just a pool of primordial matter at one point, the horn sent of the crucible fear an ancient fire giant, thus somewhere in between those events the people who turned into the bloodfiends had everything burned away. Honestly I like to think of the question posed by how exactly they first communed with the mother as the details on the event are vague, if the ancient giants once bore twisted horns and other boons of the formless mother, it’s safe to say the blood the bloodfiends found communion in was that of their enemies once they sought vengeance, as blood lust is seemingly a bare requirement of the formless mothers communion.
Also I’m slightly confused why this videos logic is in that of the crucible and the erdtree existing at the same time, let alone the elden ring seemingly being part of it already. Is this just because he’s looking at it as inspired by mythology?
Also to answer the question as best I can, I think it was the Zamor in the war against mortal dragons the became the first bloodfiends after they had been burned down
Like the speculation but there are some point's I'd like to make: The story trailer very heavily implies the erd tree and scadutree were born at the same moment, which by established lore would have to be AFTER the defeat of the Fire Giants, meaning the Story Trailer is showing Marika's much earlier ascension. She wasn't making the Trees at that moment, that came much later. Also: There are statues of Marika in the Lands Between as a Libation Maiden. Tarnished Archeologist has a good video on that. And there's a unique one of her in the Chapel of Awakening. I really like most of your timeline and events for Marika taking her divinity from the Serpent Deity but I don't think it is Eglay, rather likely Eglay's mother. I also agree that this is why Messmer and the Gloam Eyed Queen were born, Marika's 'absorption' of the power and authority of that/those deities 'fermented' within her like a pot and birthed the 'defects' in her children. She took over the domains of every deity, the god of Rot, The god of the TwinBird, the god serpent in the story trailer. She took their essence all within her but they were too potent as Immortal Essence to stop existing when 'killed', so their essences were reborn to reform the chaos of the cruicible era once again. The natural state of the Lands Between is a furnace of fierce competition, roiling conflict and the refinement of power through controlled strength. Marika's rule was an unnatural pause in that much longer conflict that ended up being literally worse for every being involved. Glad to see more outside the box lore thinkers, subbed hard and look forward to more of your work.
I have watched years of lore videos surrounding all of Miyazaki’s games and this is by far the most interesting and convincing explanation I’ve heard. Truly a joy to listen to.
The reliefs at 17:28 look like they have the symbol for spira at the center of each row. It almost looks like they are showing multiple generations using spira to create a pillar that goes all the way up to the erdtree at the top
What a great video, and a great attempt at piecing together of the evidence. Scadutree being the "great-tree" makes perfect sense, and perhaps explains why the age of plenty ended during the age of erdtree, the great tree started dying.
@@betteryou7hanme The gate is literally made of corpses even in the trailer it isn't really hard to notice. Whether these corpses are of hornset or not is debatable.
@@betteryou7hanme When she is going up the stairs you see literal mounds of fresh flesh covering those stairs. When the camera pans back you see the piles and piles of bodies, everything red. What do you think those things are? In the actual game, when you go there, now those corpses dried/petrified/whatever, they're clearly hornsent
My headcannon is the scadu and erd trees were once bound together (you can see it in sculpture/tableau with the intertwined tree with the third middle branch) and needed both light and shadow trees to make the full Greattree. To me, the seduction was similar to the chaos flame- a whisper in marikas ear that the current order that ravaged horrors on her people didn't have to continue if she attained godhood, and the betrayal was a betrayal of those who helped her ascend and of the then current Order. The golden threads are her grabbing the light part of the tree to pull it out and split it off. Which also would neatly explain why the undead rose, to rebalance her unbalancing of life/death and the chaos flame to rebalance her light/dark disruption
Yet another lore banger coming from the soulsborne philospher! You put a ton of work into this and it shows. The storytelling is top tier and your perspective is really enlightening and refreshing. I'm excited for more to come!
Something to point out about the great fires and charred tower mentioned, I believe it is the furnace visage that mentions the fire giants haunt the hornsent
Not to throw a shade on Vaati's vids, but i stopped watching his channel, cos now it's just yet spectacular cinematics, but they lack the inner depth of the lore discussion. Great work, dude ❤
something occured to me about the serpent: isnt it weird that it seems to be made of a bunch of corpses fused together, rather than just being a snake? like it almost seems manufactured in the same way the nox cities and the tower and the gate of divinity were: fusing a bunch of corpses together to create something that can channel a god. Maybe Eiglay is a living divine gate, which explains its immortality, its immunity to destruction, and the weird way it can be reconstituted by consuming corpses. Rykard is doing exactly that. If the goal of the hornsent with the Jars was to create a living vessel and conduit for gordhood, what if eiglay was the ultimate form of this: a vessel large and powerful enough to house not just a large portion of power, as an empyrean would, but an entire outer god. A living gate of divinity of near total power that would allow an outer god to live in the mortal realm. Maybe the "base" serpent is low and evil because its a soulless vessel that never absorbed its intended outer god, and now lives on. That would explain why its no reviled and also why it wont actually die. Godwyn demonstrates what being soulless with a living body can do to you. That would make Messmer's seeming to have the serpents soul in him confusing but who knows.
After reaching the end of the video, I'd like to hear your thoughts on the connection between Metyr and Blackflame. If you take a look at Metyr's face, it resembles the seal on the blackflame incantations very closely. The Godslayer Greatsword is a spiral blade as well, and to add to that the new Lamenter's mask item envelops you in blackflame before transforming you into a Horned form and on the back of that horned form is a face that resembles the godskin Apostle robes. I also made a connection between the Lamenter's and Metyr through their ascension to a state of bliss through "lamenting" and producing horns and Metyr's Kowtower Resentment, being a similar state of "bliss" through a different extreme of emotions. I don't know if that is enough to link blackflame and fingers, but I think down to some degree, every variant of "flame" are all related. Not to mention frenzy flame, Midra's Manse, and the hidden fingers and eggs under the cloths or the robes of the Godskins having a seal similar to the depiction of the fell god and the fire golems having that same depiction as their face implying some connection even just by image. It's all connected through flame
I've put a lot of thought into it but I can't truly say it's stable enough ground to keep expanding enough off without getting lost in the weeds but I feel I'm onto something that could lead us to more insight on the Gloam Eyed Queen. My running headcanon theory is I think there was someone who left the finger imprint on the formless star that was Metyr. Metyr took the human DNA and imprinted into itself, took on the form of the first thing that made contact with it, and that is why fingers are so ingrained into the Greater Will. Who that character is befuddles me, but again, my running theory would be the Gloam Eyed Queen with the pieces I've put together. The blackflame seal and Metyr's face are shaped like a fingerprint. It can't be a coincidence
This isn't something I can really conceivably say there is solid evidence for but if Melina is Gloam Eyed Queen I have a narrative I could kinda spin but I don't really know the exact motivations. So Melina being the younger sister of Messmer, assuming she was born during the time during the crusades and such, all she would have seen from her family is bloodshed and deceit. She would not have possessed the same flame her brother was gifted at birth as she did not have his red hair, but she possessed an admiration and "lament" for her brother's abilities and a burning and kindling passion to attain a flame of her own. When Marika begun the crusades, their were wars enthrust all across the Lands of Shadow and this affected all who lived, the innocent and the weak. Romina and her people of Church of the Bud burnt. Midra's Manse, burnt. With this her "lament" turned to "Resent" and she sought to fight the very gods or people who sought to be themselves. Thus leading to her eventually discovering Metyr and the establishment of the Godskin Cult. Eventually she had to be eliminated by Marika herself, or her loyal Shadow, Maliketh, as to no longer stand in her way and then her spirit was released to the Erdtree to eventually meet us. There are a lot of logical gaps and things I could probably take into consideration and I'm willing to hear if anyone has criticism or things they could add but I wanted to out if out there because no idea is too out there with Miyazaki and George R. R. Martin's storytelling. Could be just as possible that the Gloam Eyed Queen was part of Marika and was sealed in Melina as a curse as well. That's where the logic kinda fails and the items descriptions and hidden environment details will close the gaps or lead to a better answer
Both the uld ancient dynast with floating coffins, the nox and the Rauh culture(whose pillars and works you find all across the lands between) all of them seem to be numen. The uld panels show them worshipping or planting great trees and also show the stone coffins found in the DLC.
i have head cannon that marika is a somewhat akin to a jar. a true saint, almost like a self fulfilling prophecy for the hornsent. killing shamans to create a saint (the seduction), to steal their godhood and ascend herself (the betrayal).
That’s my theory as well….what Marika is doing at the divine gate is basically a giant jar ritual. She is pulling flesh from the body of deceased shamans, and using it to hold together the flesh of all the bodies around the divine gate. If you look close you can see that the threads she’s holding up in the trailer connect to the bodies.
@@donovan4222 I dont think so. I've looked close and I don't see that. What I see is a golden haired male figure (Radagon) holding the Strands and them forming into Marikas Soreseal Rune.
She probably became one with the jar she was put in, thats why she has this stone like flesh, she was probably meant as a Vessel to house an outer god of some sort, but she housed the Elden Beast instead. Also Alexander last words hits much more with this theory "All vessels are meant to break one day."
"And so Radagon had exclaimed, 'ARGH, I'M SCADDING!' and the Scadutree sprung forth from the land. And with its birth, so were the firstborn of Marika and Radagon's union."
My vague theory is that Marika has seduced outer gods and used her children in which to seal them as a way of conjoining that opposing force with her golden order. messmer has the snake god, Melina has the gloam-eyed queen, Melina the rot god and so on. The Scadutree being the actual shadow of the erdtree also sets up an interesting parallel with empyreans apparently being given a shadow or half-brother that I haven't heard anyone talking about
I also saw it like that too. My theory is even wilder: Marika is the ideal product of the hornsent Jar ritual. They managed to combine every aspect of all the outer Gods and races together - that is why Marika/Radagon's children all have unique outer God aspects to them. (Also explains why Marika's body is like that of a shattered container. *a homungculous.)
I'm pretty sure the Talisman was about the Bloodfiend tribe and their descent into worshipping the Formless Mother. Messmer burned their villages, and during a moment where they would venerate and grieve for their dead, they instead saw Mother of Truth
I don't think so personally. The current heirloom talismans we have are made only for very significant figures: Demigods such as Radahn and Malenia, the two fingers, and the astrologers that preceded all sorcerers. The bloodfiends did not seem to have a very significant presence be it cultural or technological, so it wouldn't make sense for such an amulet to be made for them
I think the outer god seen in the talisman is whatever god gave the hornsent their horns. All the reverend spirits are dead, burned, and decapitated, except for one in Enir-Ilim which looks much less decrepit, and has a head with horns. It may have been the Fell God, who is both associated with the giants and the Fell Omen. Or the sun that guided the Dung Eater. It could also, like the Sun, have induced mutations and cancerous growth through harmful radiations. But scientific research in the Specimen Room led them to make discoveries about the horns and the origin of all life. So they called this discovery The Crucible, a darwinian reinterpretation of genetic mutations, albeit a very flawed and backwards one (the Crucible knights believed the crucible of life to have originated from complex body plans that had simpler descendants, instead of the other way around).
The problem is we know from Ymir that whatever was going on, Marika was NOT in fact in communion with the Greater Will. The Greater Will is not an outer god, I think thats been established well enough. While the Gate of Divinity may be used for contacting heavenly beings, its definitively not for the Greater Will. Metyr was supposed to be in contact with it, and we know from her lore shes broken, and seemingly abandoned by the Greater Will, and the Two Fingers who originate from her, are thus also not actually communicating with it, and the directions they gave her did not come from the Greater Will. What little lore we have on the Gate is that it allows for an ascension to godhood, and since Miquella mirrors Marika's path, that means Marika had to do similar things Miquella did, which includes shedding her flesh, I should think. Thats how we get Radagon, and I think then that thus, before she got with Godfrey, thats how we get Mesmer. Still, I think there is something to the snake god of the hornsent idea. I like the idea that Messmer also used snake iconography to further mock the hornsent. Using imagery evoking serpents, their past god, as a means to further strike fear in their hearts, just like how the giant wickermen have depictions of the fell god that also terrify them. We also know that "Shaman" wasn't a great translation for the village and its inhabitants. The name is more accurately known as "Shrine Priestess" by the Japanese language, which may further cement the idea that Marika and her largely female kin were used for religious purposes. Whether she was a successful jar or not is uncertain. Maybe she was simply spared that fate? Maybe the purpose of these shrine maiden priestesses were to be used to feed the snake god? Thats not an uncommon story, virgin, pure sacrifices given to some terrible deity.
Love this so much, it reminds me of Tarnished Archeologist’s analysis of the architecture of the base game, the new supplanting the old but unable to erase it completely. It would also makes sense as to why the shed snake skin is in the Hinterlands next to her village. She was to be a bride or maybe was the bride of the Serpent, her son after all houses the Abyssal Serpent hence the seduction and betrayal, the Grandam calling Marika a strumpet makes sense in this manner. I’ve also thought about the Shaman’s flesh melding harmoniously with others, not just in the sense the jarring rituals. If Marika was able to bridge the genetic differences and bare offspring from other beings would that not also be a melding of sorts? If her womb were to be a crucible of sorts blending beings together and producing mixed offspring? Or perhaps a divine gate once she becomes a god? All her children are influenced by an outer god even Godwyn after his death. This might be the sin that is hinted at, not just the slaughter of the Hornsent as that came later. Sorry for the rambling.
Every time I heard that snap in your title sequences I thought a Nintendo Switch ad had come on and I immediately moved to skip it only to find it was just the sound of your chapters XD
Really nice video, I agree with a lot of it. I think there is another way to think of a "normalized Crucible current". If the two halves of the Great-tree have opposite natures (light/dark, life/death, positive/negative, yin/yang), the combination of the two in this spiral pattern may create a Crucible Current. Depending on the two inputs, the Current could be turbulent or smooth flowing, like a Ghostbuster's stream, a water stream, or an electrical current, which is probably closer to the truth. "Data normalization formula is the method of scaling values to bring them to a common range. It is used to process any data set so that they become comparable to other data set and can be used by anyone who wants to understand and interpret it. It is mainly used by professionals working with a huge data volume." In this context, a normalized crucible current is in no way a sociological construct, it's instead intended to reinforce that a Great tree in balance can work wonderous miracles, and those that tended to it ensured each side was fed what it needed to thrive in the quantities necessary. Normalization would be the act of ensuring the each side is not overfed or underfed, maintaining a steady supply to each side. Maybe the ingredients are bodies and spirits/souls, idk. You have a continuous, even stream of bodies/souls traveling up the spiral. I'd argue that, historically, these trees were fed slowly, given that the Gaol's are also refrigerators/freezers storing some reserve supply of jars so that they don't run out (a battery backup). I think the mass of Hornsent bodies at the top of the tower was a de-normalization event, sending a huge spike of death energy into the body-wrapped tuning fork/antenna, which I think some item description somewhere says the Hornsent worked really hard to avoid happening. In terms of electricity, it would be a "power surge". Since i think this tuning fork is how everything in the Lands Between communicated with the Greater Will, when the tuning fork went out of tune, the Lands lost the frequency and lost contact. They weren't abandoned, Marika broke the radio.
The parallels between what happens at the gate of divinity and Berserk’s eclipse is striking. The big sacrifice required to ascend, even the fact that this is used to communicate with outer gods echoes a cut chapter of Berserk when griffith ascends. We kbow miyazaki loves some good old Berserk
My guess is that the scadutree is THE Tree of the crucible erra. See what I mean? Even it's shape looks a lot like a spiral but broken... Like if something has been ripped from it, most likely it's roots wich actually lies in deep root depths. Also the final appearance of thorns brings answer as to How the giants have been defeated, and we know thorns as radagon's "thing", and after all he is the Thor of the story. so it would make sense to say that he is a lesser giant, that he betrayed his kind with the trolls and even killed all of the giants alone. at least in the original Norse mythology... A flesh that melds harmoniously with others? This looks a lot like grafting to me Now we also know how she did become 2 separate personna, she just absorbed radagon...
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 holy hell this is a good one. You hit all the topics I’ve been dying to hear that no one was talking about. I always wondered why the stones were so different in the statues and the one strange snake scale pillar.
I knew about lore videos but to look at the different type of structures and how they line up with the story, now that’s some high thinking right there!
messmers kindling shows that messmer has a younger sister who had visions of fire much like messmer(likely melina) so the last part feels flawed, very good video nontheless
One thing: I believe "normalized" is meant in a statistical sense, not social. Like when you have a bunch of data points but represent them with one straight line. So, what the text actually tells us is that Crucible currents (whatever they are) have an irregular shape or direction. But the people chose to depict a model of a current that has a regular shape which is easier to understand - but also much easier to misinterpret and/or re-contextualize.
I hope you have many more followers joining, because this is really a very cool, interesting and well-founded analysis, without wild theory, everything is very well grounded and I just really, genuinely enjoyed your montage and narration skills! Subscribing and thank you for sharing!
Something that strikes me about the Scadutree is the way part of it looks just like the Erdtree (though a bit thinner). It's stalk-straight, and bent at the base like the Erdtree is, and has that same characteristic canopy at its top. Meanwhile the other part of it is gnarled and twisted, and clearly trying to be part of a double helix. I imagine the tree (the Greattree) used to be more upright, and the straight part of it used to be more curled so that the whole thing resembled the spiral we see depicted on hornsent imagery. Maybe it becoming straight was part of the Greater Will imposing Order onto Marika's rule, or maybe it's somehow akin to how Marika's hair becomes braided instead of wild. Something to do with the notion of Marika's initial rule being without Order (the kindness of gold, without Order), and then that Order being thrust upon her and it. One thing that always stuck with me was the notion that this ritual of Marika's begat gold, and thus, shadow. Perhaps the original Scadutree / Greattree was not made of shadow at all, but only became that way to reflect the opposite of what was happening to the tree in the Lands Between?
If one fits the Shadow Lands map into the center of Lands Between, then it turns out that Scadutree is in (roughly) same spot as the Erdtree. My impression is that the "veiling" of Shadow Lands split the original Great Tree into an ethereal Golden Tree and a mangled Shadow Tree (scadu is an old form of shadow). My interpretation is that Marika maybe used Shadow Lands as some sort of "garbage bin of the universe" where to put nasty things, such as death. I think the divine towers and the suppression tower might have been used to accomplish the veiling.
I strongly agree that Marika betrayed the hornsent-and was, perhaps, feigning allegiance to the abyssal serpent to gain their blessing-but, I think Marika's transgressions and betrayals are even deeper than that one group and potential deity. I'm collecting evidence, from the lore in the base game and DLC. And, including a fairly conclusive match to a 3d model of a certain boss from the DLC (that is virtually identical to what she pulls the golden strands from). Presently, I don't think Marika simply betrayed one group. I believe she betrayed her kinsmen, and many others. I'm working up the document and images to drop in the relevant subreddits to see if it's compelling enough for others.
The Spiral archaeology segment reminds of those ancient archeology videos that suggest that the earlier, superior pyramids were built by a forgotten advanced culture and the new copy cat, small inferior pyramids were built by a more contemporary ancient Egyptian culture.
Great stuff. Never heard anyone suggest that the jarring rituals happened after marika used the gate, and I hadnt even considered Marikas bracelets were serpents. So what is the thing about the shaman flesh blending together-i feel like thats a clue about why the hornsent used the shaman in the ritual. You have described that as a kind of vengeful thing now, so they just also happened to be great for what the honrsent want to do to recharge the gate after she used it? That aspect feels a little strange from this perspective I think
Hot take: the gateway has been used as a sand cast. If you look at the top of the gate you can see reliefs of people, but they are negative. On the other side, there are some people sticking out that look like they are made of a silvery metal. When sand casting like this you usually have to remove excess pieces that form in the vents and creases. The metal people are pieces of this cast that broke off. This process is why sand was necessary. The sacrifices were arranged in the desired shape and buried in sand, and then when the liquid poured in it burned the people inside and left a negative space, like in pompeii, and metal filled everything. If you look up "ant hill cast" you will find examples that look strikingly similar. But what object was crafted to this process, with what, and when all of this traspired I am not sure. My best guess is that the individual pieces of the tower were made at the gateway, probably with plaster (and/or cement) instead of metal, and maybe the people seen clinging at the tower are the pieces coming undone. Maybe every time they used this cast the tower grew upwards, like a plant. Also what do you call the thing metal is melted in used to pour the substance into the cast? That's right, a crucible. I think the godskin thing in the trailer is a womb with a baby's head sticking out. The gloam eyed queen is said to have swaddled the godskin apostles. Marika was likely either this baby's wetnurse or the mother's midwife, but she stole the newborn's thin gold hairs instead (note that there is a motif of gold threads and sewing). Interpret that however you like. Edit: on second thought, the back of the gate of divinity is glossy. It think it's made of slag. There's also layers to the gate, with one older layer visible at the base of the gate that looks like a sculpted relief as it features clothes which later people do not. The gate never had one, single purpose, it's purpose and meaning has changed through history many times. Still, so many mysteries.
I always thought they picked Bayle and Igon as a nod to GRRM. Balerion and Aegon. Too similar for me to not believe that that naming scheme for man and dragon wasn't a nod to George.
The timdiggity saggy flappy floppy snake face bit is where our thoughts diverge quite a bit. My one question that calls this into question is where is the giant snake body now, then? If everything else at the divine gate stayed the way that it was? Also this is NOT the only time we see Marika with those bangles that aren’t necessarily snake bangles. In fact, it is those bangles themselves that lent so much certainty to the community that this arm in the trailer was 100% Marika. I love your evidence and reasoning and the way you have pieced this all together, aside from these two obvious points. I think the speculative aspects in the end are just too shaky for me to accept, but over all, this is fantastic! Thank you for this marvellous contribution. This is a wonderful journey into the depths of the lore of the DLC that you’ve led us down. Im absolutely subbed. Its a 10/10 from me! ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
Anyone who thinks that thing she pulls the golden threads from is a snake head has no clue what a snakes head looks like. The snake heads in game are actually really good depictions of a constrictor. Especially the snakes around Mesmer The thing she pulls the threads from looks nothing like a snakes head at all
@@joesaiditstrue Whilst i fully agree with you and have said so in multiple streams of my own and others', i chose to refrain from saying anything exactly like this as a means to not be brutally unaccepting of anyone's theories. Because if you would have told me you suspect Miquella is going to steal Mohg's body to transfer Radahn's soul so he can take him as consort and that's why Malenia not only nuked Caelid but also FAILED to even kill Radahn to begin with, I would have angrily disagreed and told you that was piss poor writing. (I still think it's piss poor writing.) So anyway, I agree with you, but I want to play nice with people that disagree with me on such things. Hearing people's ideas and letting them broaden what you are will to consider is so much more valuable than bitterly casting them aside because they detract from other paths you and I might feel are more viable/sensical/likely. Just tossing this out there because I understand the tendency to make a comment with as much passion as this. Whilst I agree, I think it is also important to consider the possibility that there is a huge python hiding under a saggy flappy floppy godskin snake outfit lololololol
The corpse that the clan peered upon is pretty obvious once you recognize what the talisman is actually depicting. Its one of the corpse-statues you can find around the world with revered spirit ashes on them. In fact its probably the specific one that's located inside the Rivermouth Cave where you can find an altar surrounded by dozens of bloodfiends in a deep pool of blood. The trauma of messmer's genocide probably led them to the formless mother while attempting to find solace in their ancestor.
Are you sure the coffin ships didn't arrive on the land of shadow after it was banished and veiled? If the lands were where most people seem to think it is (in the middle of the big hole in the lands between) then for the coffin ships to be beached on the curelian coast they'd need to have gone inland through limgrave... And the cerulean coast is also a *coast* sand beaches and all.
This is it.. the narrative I've been looking for and trying to formulate in my mind. My instint has been telling me Marika is not the victim she is portrayed to be. Its too obvious. For instance why was she even in the vicinity of the gateway and afforded the opportunity to ascend if she belonged to a persecuted race? What was the betrayal mentioned in the trailer? What was her confession to the mother statue where she gave the braid? Was the placement of the minor erdtree done out of guilt? Great video and while you do speculate in parts, it's done using logic and little pieces of evidence I wasn't aware of.
This makes the most sense. Once you said that the Shamans are Miko in Japanese then it made more sense. There is this book by called the Catalpa bow by Carmen Blacker that I read that goes into Miko's in Japan. A super good book that I could share if u were interested. But I'd say that the jarring of the Shamans happened before and after Marika's accension. It seems they were trying to create a vessel for a god. The term Saint like in St. Romina then would seem to be they are vessels or miko for an outer god.
All the big lore creators seem to be scaling back because the lore didnt conform to their headcanon. Time for the smaller creators to step up. Good job man. Your vid is a banger.
Some very astute observations, particularly about the statues. Not as sure about how you come to conclusions though. Lots of front and centre evidence to the contrary ignored (e.g. braids), stretches that don't mesh well with the purpose of item lore (e.g. Messmer pregnancy as a _result_ of serpent), and honestly just forgetting that this is ultimately a fictional story crafted by Miyazaki and GRRM, so conclusions that are at odds with both the recurring themes of the game, as well as various interview statements on the game (i.e. Marika being an unprovoked villain).
Never thought of that the tower was inhabited by different coultures and people over what was probably centuries. But it makes a lot of sense! Great video.
Definitely some great info and some interesting speculation. I think we need to stew more on the lore as you definitely have compelling argument on what the Divinity Gate is, while others have laid out information on the Jar-Saints and Metyr. We're getting there I think!
The snake skin in the shaman village could be a clue that the serpent gloam eyed queen survived, but only because , as Rykard says, “ a serpent never dies” but by the time she could recover, Marika had usurped the god position. Therefor, the now demoted serpent, retreats deep into the mountains, where it is later discovered, by Rykard himself. The serpent , eager for revenge, devours Rykard for a shard of the grace it was robbed of. The hornsent people have the incantation of the skulls above their head, (forgot its name atm) much like Rykard has although an evolved blasphemous version. Holy shit.
I agree with a lot of the points you make, but I think the Gate seems to make gods rather than commune with them (based on the Secret Rite scroll), even though its shape makes communion maybe likely as well. Also, the Japanese for the Outer God Heirloom suggests what was sacred was not the act of looking on the ancestor's body, but the body/ancestor itself.
Maybe the reason we can find the serpent in Mt Gelmir is that Marika sought to dispose of its immortal corpse in lava. Weve seen the serpent, even when dead, continues living, and could in theory be rejuvenated as Ricard and later Tanith do. The lava of the volcano would be my first effort to see if I could get rid of it. The only better option would be the flame of ruin but if we are to believe Eiglay was killed at the moment of Marikas ascension, then she would not have yet had access to the mountaintops. The giants wouldve still firmly controlled them, so that would not have been an option.
This is so amazing! I'd like to add a bit of lore too :> The reason why Messmer has a serpent inside is the same why Mogh and Morgot have horns. I think it's because upon ascending she absorbs parts of the beings she sacrifices: hornsent and godskin serpent alike. Across her offspring those two are the characters we find reverberated, much like resurfacing genetic traits: serpent/fire and horns/fiery blood. Messmer gets the serpent and the fire, Melina the fire and the godskin death flame, Mogh and Morgot the horns and the fiery blood.
I have something that’s been itching at the back of my mind for a while now. The gate of divinity works off of sacrifice, it’s how Marika gained Godhood. But with Miquella his sacrifice came from his flesh, heritage, and certain emotions. Would this sacrifice however be enough for the Gods? Maybe, maybe not. Perhaps Miquella used Mohg in another way, with the power of the formless mother and Mohg’s followers they hunted down and slaughtered all manners of people. Perhaps the sacrifices were collected by Mohg and his pure blood knights. I’m not married to the idea by any means but hey it sounds interesting.
Fantastic breakdown. I was initially disappointed with the lore presented in SOTE because I hoped to get much more about the Gloam-Eyed Queen, but what you present here is even more interesting.
Thanks for the video. Also explains how Godwyn has reached the Real of Shadow, and how the Scadutree's thorns have reached the Lands Between. And how the thorns have infested Stormveil. This leads to some interesting new speculation about why the giants at the mountain tops are skewered with some sort of giant arrow/spear and riddled with thorns...
Im pretty sure the outer god heirloom is refering to the bloodfiends given they populate the building you obtain it in. Which would probably mean that the outer god in question is referring to the formless mother, especially because she is associated with blood and wounds, but also suffering like the talisman suggests. The talisman also boosts arcane which solidifies this point.
This is a really interesting video. I think you're definitely onto some things here. Admittedly, parts of this seem like they could be a bit of a stretch, but most of it seems really on point.
If Messmers curse of the abyssal Serpent is related with the godskins, it could tie to the Melina is Gloam Eyed Queen theory having her black flame curse a direct punishment as well, especially since Messmer and Melina are supposedly directly linked as siblings.
The analysis of the Divine Gate itself is crazy cool, with the different layers and noticing how the more recent hornsent remains crumble at the slightest touch. I do have to ask: since it normally takes such a mass of fresh sacrifices to get the Gate to do its thing... how exactly does Miquella ascend to godhood without paying the toll fee? Maybe it's like how the Fire Giant calls the Fell God to come posesss him by offering up his lame leg, Miquella was divesting parts of himself off to offer up to the Greater Will (I don't see who else his backer could be when he's blasting us with holy damage beams)?
Mogh and his Bloody Fingers were gathering blood sacrifices for a long time trying to stir Miquellas cocoon. Possibly the entire time it was being stockpiled for the sacrifice at the Divine Gate.
This just occurred to me after taking a closer look at the engraving on the Outer God Heirloom talisman. At first I assumed that it was depicting the Formless Mother because of where you find it. It actually looks very much like Marika at the beginning of the DLC story trailer reaching into the non-descript flesh pile and pulling out the golden threads before ascending to godhood. The gate is even depicted behind her, although it’s not a 1:1 match it makes sense if it’s just a depiction. There’s also 3 bodies seen prostrating in front of her, which could represent the hornsent corpses just before they died during her ascension. It’s curious that the talisman doesn’t allude to the formless mother or any other outer god in particular, and I don’t see any other way to interpret the engraving we see. The description we do have could still work if it was depicting Marika, and has interesting implications if true. I also found it strange that there was a talisman for raising every damage stat except arcane in the base game. At first it just seemed like a simple oversight, but if my theory is correct it makes total sense that From would save it for the DLC if it had a dual purpose for also giving important hints about the penultimate event of the DLC story - which is of course Marika’s mysterious ascension to godhood at the gate of divinity. As for how the arcane stat relates to this event, that requires a bit of inference. Based on what little we know about arcane it seems to be a sort of catch-all for types of magic/knowledge that doesn’t fall into the categories of sorcery or incantations. It is closely associated with the formless mother (and st. trina loosely), but I think that’s an intentional red herring along with the location of where the talisman is found. My best guess is that arcane relates to the outer gods in general. Sorcery is purely glintstone/primeval current based, and incantations seem to only be associated with Marika, the crucible, and/or Elden Ring itself. This includes dragon incantations as well which are faith-arcane based. We can safely assume these are also associated with the Elden Ring because of the relief depicted in maliketh’s arena/farum azula, although the arcane connection there is also noteworthy. The only dragon incantations that do not require arcane is Placidusax’s Ruin and the ancient dragon cult incants, which also are traced back to Placidusax. This makes sense because we know he was an Elden Lord and thus is connected to the Elden Ring/Greater Will. All the incantations associated with Bayle and dragon communion are faith arcane based. Makes me wonder if Bayle was in contact with his own outer god, and perhaps that was the impetus for his attempt to overthrow placidusax on his god’s behalf to challenge the Greater Will. Now back to how this relates to Marika: one must ask how it was that Marika called upon the Greater Will/Elden Beast in the first place. If they’re the source of her faith based power, there must have been some other power used. For lack of a better term, we could call it ‘arcane knowledge’, which would be a fitting callback to the lore of bloodborne and the Great Ones who are basically also outer gods for all intents and purposes. If this is true, it would make sense that a talisman depicting a pre-godhood Marika would give a significant boost to arcane. That would imply that the shaman culture of Marika’s origin worked primarily a unique type of arcane magic. This would help to explain the hornsent’s fixation on using the shamans for creating living jar saints. They may have been worshipping a heretical outer god that didn’t fit into the hornsent’s crucible based religion. Despite this, the hornsent may have also seen some value in the shamans and their ability to meld their flesh with others. Because marika is an empyrean, it’s possible that she was the hornsent’s only successful attempt at creating a ‘saint’. Maybe after this happened they decided for their own ends that she was fit to stand before the gate of divinity. If this is true, maybe this is the betrayal mentioned in the story trailer. The hornsent bowed down worshipping their divine creation expecting one thing, only for Marika to call upon an outer god (the Greater Will) and sacrifice the worshippers in the process to ascend to godhood. I’m not 100% sure about all of this but there’s no question that some connections exist.
Makes sense that the Nox use to be in charge of Enir-Ilim. At some point they were banished to be underground which would allow for the Hornsent to come in within the timeline. It also makes sense if we consider the Nox are obsessed with making their own God/Lord of Night as if they lost access to their old God-Making Gate. You even see those grotesque stone corpses in both Enir-Ilim and the Big Nox Mommy rooms.
While I felt a little misled by the title of the video being covered in about 25 seconds the rest of the video was very engaging. You could be wrong about every single thing you said for all I care, but you did it incredibly well! ( pardon if that sounded a little back handed )
Very good video with a solid theory with a decent support of evidence. I wouldn’t be surprised if other Elden Ring theorists adopt or come to similar conclusions you’ve reached
These are my personal theories: - The Arena where you fight Consort Radahn is literally THE Crucible. - The Bloodfiends, before looking like that, were the second civilization to use the Crucible - When they used the Crucible, they contacted the Formless Mother, she is the figure depicted in the Outer God Heirloom - The Formless Mother altered not only their shapes, but also of everything else, so that they now had horns and claws, bringing in the age of the Hornsent in the process as the Bloodfiends de-evolved due to their obsession with Blood - "The Brood" or Centipede people from the Shadow Lands must have been the first civilization to use the Crucible, who contacted the Rot God - That is why to this day, you see both the Bloodfiends and the Centipede people roaming the ruins of what used to be their former hometowns
Absolutely amazing analysis of the story and trailer, especially the observations on the architecture of Enir-Ilim, and of the Scadutree/Greattree. Regarding the question you posed at 29:30, I have a few thoughts that might help make sense of it. Let's try to dissect what it says. We have an ancient clan, and they worship either their ancestor or the remains of their ancestor. It is unclear whether this ancestor also perished in these great fires, thus becoming a corpse. When a great fire occurred that supposedly caused the loss of many lives, they gathered to their place of worship to pray (perhaps asking forgiveness, healing, salvation, etc). But the usual didn't happen, instead a "twisted" deity appeared, which was supposedly an Outer God. This can actually be matched very well with what you proposed in this video. The Divine Gates are surrounded by multiple generations of petrified figures, which were supposedly each used in rituals to summon Outer Gods. The process evidently requires a great sacrifice, and subsequently prayer to reach an Outer God. I believe that this clan, by chance, fulfilled the conditions by chance required to bring an Outer God to their lands, their "great fires" serving as sufficient sacrifice. The presence of this "ancestor corpse" could mean a few things. Either this is a very significant corpse, perhaps even the one of a God, that was instrumental to the summoning. Then, it was later incorporated into the Divine Gates. It could also be the case that this ancestor corpse had some kind of aspect to it that the Divine Gates also embody. I would like to propose something that also ties it together with the "great fires" described in the talismans. I speculate that the clan described in the talisman predates the civilization that built Enir-Ilim. There aren't any wood buildings to burn there in the first place, so how could such a catastrophe even take place there? Instead, this clan lived somewhere else entirely, in a place that can reach the Outer Gods just as well as Enir-Ilim, and in a location where a fire would surely cause great damage: the Greattree. Just like how Miquella's followers make their home on the Haligtree, this clan would have lived in and on the Greattree. And just like the Divine Gates, the Greattree would have reached far into the sky, which I think is one of the conditions that needs to be fulfilled. A large fire raged through the tree, causing a large number of casualties, fulfilling the second condition. This place of worship must have also been placed somewhere high up on the tree, so when people went to pray there they fulfilled the last condition, thus summoning an Outer God. The knowledge of this process must have surely been passed down to the civilisations that followed, thus creating the belief of this high-reaching spiral that reaches the Gods. As for the identity of this Outer God that they summoned, I really don't think there's much identifiable about the "horrible thing" that is portrayed behind the gate. It seems that some kind of foundation of rubble or sludge(?) is trickling through, half-melding with an almost volcanic outburst from the top. Personally, I see the seemingly chaotic outburst as remarkably similar to the Frenzied Flame, especially when you compare it to incantations like Unendurable Frenzy or The Flame of Frenzy. The plasma-like web that is seen around the Outer God is also similar to what is seen in the sky during the Frenzied Flame ending. An event where a huge number of lives are lost could have had a great effect on the psyche of the population, take the bubonic plague for instance. If the great fires were cataclysmic enough, then it would make sense that it'll attract the attention of the Frenzied Flame. Edit: If you compare the illustration on the talisman to the Swollen Grape item, the resemblance is even more striking!
I think the original dynasty might be related to pledusai (spelling?). Farum Azula is also in the sky, in a similar manner to where gate ends up. The game speaks of his lord leaving. He might have been the original with scadutree. Marika veils the Land of Shadows and forsakes the original tree. The dragons then attack the capital in retaliation. Its a thought.
