Let's Learn Starcraft #6: Intro to Protoss Units 

Ty

not if you leave them alone until they unfreeze - then they remember their control groups ;)

Vol Smik really? So as soon they are frozen, leave them and only check out once unfrozen also without mashing control groups?

yep

On reddit he did give give a caveat: They are an extremely powerful unit en masse, so money maps or FFAs on large 256*256 maps, they become rather powerful, as cost efficiency goes out the window.

I remember that scout price was raised in one of the last brood war patch around 2001, people use to harrass with them and mass them when they were like 200 or 225 minerald. I always thought that this was a bad decision to raise their price as they became useless in the game from that point in time.

I think the price is fine. Scouts are like wraithes with better stats for the price but without cloak. It's just that they fulfill the role that doesn't need to be fulfilled. Vs toss the are good vs carriers but carriers are rarely seen in PvP. Vs terran they would be good vs BCs if yamatos didn't exist. And vs zerg corsairs are just better.

They *lowered* the price, actually, because in an earlier patch they removed the innate 1 armour scouts had.

scouts + shield battery + photon cannons. your welcome.

PS. In the future I'd love to see you do analyses of Shine vs. Bisu // Shine vs. Mong. Shine was an extremely unorthodox/aggressive Z in both series.

Oh yeah Day9 has top quality stuff when it comes to teaching people about these games and analyzing them.

Just FYI Day9 doesn't read RU-vid comments; in fact he isn't directly responsible for editing or uploading these videos to RU-vid. The real show is on Twitch.

Kind of not related to starcraft but you should watch (listen) to his life story video and "how i almost died". Really good listens!

Have you seen day9 daily episode #100? ....paradigm shifting for young gamers (or at least for me) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-NJztfsXKcPQ.html

At band camp

I just watched a mothership vortex + nuke in a SC2 game kind of like that.

I came to the comments to see if anyone else caught that at 40:57

Yamcha Dragonball pretty sure he was joking, and you missed the most important part of what makes dark archons good: fun!

The thing is that you dont have to build both races, but if you can "offrace" your workers you can free up some supply for more units.

You might use dark archon's vs Zerg for maelstrom. A lot of the time it can be better then stasis in the matchup.

Dummy257 *3 races and 600/600 supply if all 3 races are in a game. :) Medics for your Ultralisks! Recall Siege mode Siege Tanks! Devourers + Valkyries or Corsairs = gg enemy air!!!

Did the code reveal anything about why Dragoons and Golaiths are so incompetant at moving in a group? just curious.

Walking units do not move at a fixed rate, is essentially what happens. On some frames they move more pixels than others. Dragoons have some of the most dramatic variation in movement speeds (run the game at slow or normal and you can basically *see* when dragoons slow down and speed up) which when combined with being one of the larger units in the game (only a couple pixels smaller than a terrain tile) and how much of a mess BW's pathing engine actually is, the fact they're as good as they are is a miracle.

Rosetta Foster That's pretty cool. So Marines and the like move together fairly uniformedly, and don't have too many issues unless too many are forced through a choke. But the more jittery they are, like dragoons and golaiths, they keep walking into each other's pixel space and wonks up the pathing. TIL

Essentially yeah. It's kind of like a traffic jam, except people are trying to go for off road "solutions" only to realize that there' only one way across the river, off road or no.

Dragoons move like inchworms

e r i c what are some questions you have?

I see what you mean. I love Day9 and he's very passionate but so many times during his lessons and analysis he speaks in very broad strokes and abstract ideas. He never really uses numbers or what to do when, it's all very general. Though, to be fair this video is fine. It was all pretty clear to me. It's just his strategy videos I usually don't connect with.

yes, he uses a lot of acronyms and terms that i'm not familiar with. i'm lost on the vocabulary and WHY certain units are good or bad, or WHY certain amounts of units are used. sean is the man though, i hope he keeps making these.

e r i c What terms didn't you get? Maybe I can help.

Look it up on the wiki man

yeah but the problem is surviving until that

I have to disagree, because in the last 20 years our societies changed sooo much that kids these days are starting to whine the instant they encounter any imbalance (which BW is full of). Just listen to the whole "microaggressions" rhetoric. To become Bisu you need to start young, so "us old folks" cant do that.

i was just pointing out the great work day[9] is doing by making this videos. it was a joke.

The numbers Mason? What do they mean?

Generally you don't get them bc the 10 scarab doesn't help and the dmg increase isn't cost effective. Just get shuttle speed.

You can get damage vs terran and it will increase the splash damage against scvs to allow more one shot kills

12.5 more mana so you're 50% closer to casting a storm

yep

According to a speedrun of the Protoss expansion campaign I saw, they actually did nerf disruption web, to the point where it's easy to get yourself killed at the point where they teach you about it, since they didn't actually rebalance the campaign

Probably shift?

ya if you have say 8 units in control group 1 intead of selecting 12 units and remaking the control group you can grab 4 more units and Shift+1 and add 4 more units to control group 1

acadianalien pressing shift+tab twice changes your color to teal, all your allies' color to yellow, and your enemies' color to red. It's just a little function in the game. Especially useful in team matches.

I wouldn't say that they scale the most out of all units. They scale just like marines. The best scaling unit is probably goliath with air attack since he gets +4 damage from each upgrade with base damage of 20.

OKAY NOW LSITEN, THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? The carrier has 8 interceptors that each fire 2 shots. Meaning that in total it gets 16 bonus damage for every upgrade. ALSO MARIEN DAMAGE UPGRADE IS AWESOME TOO SAME FOR LINGS,BUTT NOTHING IS AS EPIC AS CAARRIER ATTACK UPGGGG; YOUR LITTLE GIRLY MAN GOLIATH CAN GO HOME!!!

some intradesting stuff you probably didnt knew. I didnt. Itsfrom liquipedia reads almost like a april fools joke: Interceptors automatically return to the Carrier at 10 shields. When Interceptors return to the Carrier, they instantly regain all their shields and regenerate 0.5 hit points per frame (7.5 per second at normal speed and 12 per second at fastest game speed). Interceptors can be launched only if they have at least 20 health. This is the cause of the "Plague issue" described below. Micro They do not return to moving Carriers, which can be used to keep them out in anticipation of attack. (They may move "under" it and therefore not be seen, but they don't actually enter it.) This fact is commonly used by players to minimize the delay between the Carrier's attacks, since if the Interceptors are not allowed back in, they all attack at once without having to launch again. This is the reason we often see players attacking their own buildings before they engage the enemy. The opposite is also true: only Interceptors launched will deploy and engage when the Carrier moves and the lack of Interceptor shield recharge can be a major negative aspect. Notes Plague Because Plague deals approximately 11.83 damage per second on fastest speed, Plagued interceptors inside a carrier can only heal about 4 hit points while the effect is active. Thus, when Plagued Interceptors return to the Carrier, they do not tend to exit again until Plague has worn off. Landing Terran Buildings When a hovering Terran building lands on Interceptors, they instantly die. If a Carrier attacks something, moves away before Interceptors get back in and a building lands on it, all its Interceptors will die. Ensnare The Queen's Ensnare ability reduces both the target's attack and movement speed. The Interceptors however have to complete their flight path and get into position every time they attack, so the effects of Ensnare are very strong against them. Source: wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Interceptor

1. The interceptors' graphic looks like 2 shots, but it is only internally counted as one shot. 2. No need for all caps. 3. If you want to multiply by the number of units, for that same 550 minerals and 250 gas that a fully loaded carrier costed you, you can get more than 4 goliaths. They genuinely do fire two shots per volley, with more than one volley per second, So that is already twice as many attacks per second as the carrier did. Then the individual shots scale up in damage twice as fast (+2 per missile). You really have to compare these things cost-for-cost to see the reality; carrier upgrade scaling is nothing to write home about. 4. Finally, because the packets on goliaths scale by 2 instead of 1, you get better efficiency vs enemy armor; that +3 carrier attack is cancelled out by +3 armor on the enemy side.

This was discussed a little more in the Terran video, mostly as to why Firebats are never used except in niche situations against zerg.

Russia Good if you play toss, you get goons. You need them in all matchups.

Dragoons aren't built *en masse* against zerg. They're important at countering attempts to snipe your key support units, and don't need to waltz into melee range to fight Lurkers.

having 6 range with good speed and decent hp is enough to justify their existence. Helps defend shuttles with corsairs vs mutas (10 damage is still good damage), does full damage vs lurkers and ultras, and additional dps to support lots and archons will win fights. Also, the classic advantage of range of abusing terrain. You will build more lots then goons in pvz, but you still need them at all points in the game.

Kingwut117 Not really too innacurate, as day9 has said, there's not many transitions but there are small variations. Yes, you do use diffrent types of armies in sc2 but that's also because there are more units in that game. While there may be less options in compositions, there are a lot more options as in what to actually do in game.

He goes over that topic in episode 0

In Episode 0 and Episode 1 he goes over that.

From what I understand, the reason for this is that SC2 emphasizes unit/army composition far more, whereas, BW is much more about economic approach and navigating the tension between micro and macro.

Sounds inaccurate - there are multiple strats for each matchup. Like you can go Mech vs Zerg OR Bio vs Zerg as Terran, but then within each of those there are many different ways to do it. I do think that if you don't know the game then it gets harder to identify the variations of the builds as they often use the same units. Whilst in SC2 you might use a totally different unit, in BW you might just have slightly more tanks or certain upgrades and then it counts as a totally different build.

I know this is an old comment but that argument is flawed However others have explained it better than i have But for starters Having less unit compositions has nothing to do with strategy or technicality

@@dj_koen1265 you would have to explain that. From my perspective, way more potential units means decisions trees and flow charts are more difficult and more complicated in SC2.

@@SpitefulAZ Not really since units work as a Rock-papper-sissors game over on sc2. Even if you are able to play with different units the same match up the main feeling is the same (smash your dead ball of army against his dead ball of an army) The flow charts I wouldn't say they are more difficult over on sc2 than in sc:bw, I would say they are the same the main difference is how you go select them sc2 is based on unit comp, sc:bw based on map, spawning positions, and enemy build. And to be clear usage of units over on sc2 is as straight forward as in brood war. As an example ling - bane vs marine You see mutas ? You make archons, thors. You see colossi, you build vipers, tanks etc.

@@ThunderflySc2 wassup comment from 4 years ago

@@SpitefulAZ Technically I answered the one that is a year old 😅

Why do every unit have to be used in competitive play? Never understood this fixation.

Not sure how "1 unit is completely never used" = "Every unit must be used"

Not a great comparison but I wanna agree as it'd be pretty silly for say chess to have useless pieces that you don't touch ever. Like ideally every unit has a place somewhere in a 1v1 scenario. But given how long this game has went without any patches any change would be pretty dramatic. Wonder how the Korean pros feel.

That's not a good comparison either though, because Chess is exclusively a 1v1 game. Trying to design for an ideal where every unit is relevant in 1v1 is not a good design goal, because this would imbalance the game in so many other areas. The m249 is a useless gun in counter-strike, but that doesn't mean casual or zombie players don't have a ton of fun using it. In Magic, there are cards exclusively designed to be irrelevant to competitive play that still appeal to fans of the lore. Sean just spent so much time talking about how good the scout is despite its extreme cost. If that cost gets nerfed, perhaps it might see some pro play, but it will get utterly spammed at casual levels, and completely disrupt other game types, particularly free for alls. Is making a unit slightly more relevant at pro 1v1 metagame worth the cost of disrupting everything else, especially when the current meta-game doesn't demand it, and even worse, there's a chance that adding another well-rounded unit to Protoss could even risk breaking the comp balance entirely? I've never understood this sentiment that every element of a game's design needs to be relevant to competitive play, because it's almost never the competitive players that call for it. A recurring theme in eSports is professional players continually pushing for a game's design to adapt and cater to professional play, often at the "detriment" of casual players (at least according to said demographic). This is one of the few sentiments where I see that idea go completely backwards.

Chess is different because it's symmetric and you start with all your pieces. In starcraft if a unit is useless you can just not build it and it's practically not in the game but in chess you are kinda stuck with the pieces that you got.