LFR Following Winnipeg Jets vs. Toronto Maple Leafs | Dec 5, 2021 SDPN: www.sdpn.ca/ CAMEO: www.cameo.com/stevedangle BOOK: bit.ly/2I9hmWP AUDIOBOOK: bit.ly/2GIgYya EASTER SEALS: bit.ly/3vcBVug
I can say a lot of not so great things about the KHL but they actually have the head referee (president of referee union, head zebra, idk the official tittle) in TV studio weekly commenting/explaining the most questionable calls. Feels like something they got right.
@@kylespencer7756 I have lost interest in fighting. I’d much rather see teams defend and score instead of bare knuckle boxing on ice, but to each their own.
@SoundAndFuryy The KHL has done alot more things right than just the officiating. They even went global. Recently playing in places like Dubai. There is a reason its the world's second largest professional hockey league in viewership terms despite only being formed in 2008.
For me the shift to anarchy happened when Bunting was being aggressively fought behind the net and he let out the very audible F-bomb. Then the ref or linesman came over and gave him a chat, you could see the anger turning his face red after the official left.
Jets: “an underratedly dirty little team”. Leafs: Angelic angels who are angelic that only injure people because justice. (BTW, Spezza gave Pionk a concussion, but that’s okay, right?) LOL. The Leafs are just like the Leaf fans. You’re ten ply.
Boston came out like Gangbusters in game 2 back in 2019. They outshot the Leafs 9-1 in the first 7 minutes, outhitting them 12-3. That's what set the tone for the game. Coyle got a goal early, and then late in the period, Marchand scored after Jake Muzzin pulled a Bill Buckner trying to catch the puck, and it went right to Pastrnak at the blue line. He did a no look behind the back to Marchand who went in alone and scored, making it 2-0. The Leafs got the only power play of the period when Pastrnak was called for charging. In the second period, the only goal was scored by Heinen after Nylander gave the puck away at the side of the net. Now the game started to get away from the officials after the knee to knee hot on Kadri, and then Kapanens retaliatory slash on DeBrusk. Had each gotten 2 minutes, the refs might have kept things from bubbling over. Kadri got away with a high stick on Gryzelcyk, who in turn got away with a high stick on Tavares, who later actually knocked Tuuka Rask down in the crease before getting thrown to the ice by Charlie McAvoy. So while the officials let too much go, it's not the reason why the Leafs lost.They simply got outplayed in every facet of the game.
@@greggburke7796 McAvoy got away with at least 3 dangerous hits that game. One on marner. Then the Kadri penalty actually was a result of him finally having enough after watching his teammate (think it was marner not sure) getting run into the boards and getting nothing. Yeah McAvoy should've been booted from that game but hey cause it's Naz he got a suspension (yes he deserved it but the refs should've never let it get to that and if McAvoy had been penalized earlier maybe he wouldn't have kept doing it with impunity....)
@@daanyaaljafri3466 McAvoy and Marner weren’t involved in the Kadri stuff, it was Debrusk and Marleau. I just thought about it some more and I think Marner was the guy Tommy Wingels elbowed before Kadri went at him the year before I think so maybe that’s where you are confused.
@@daanyaaljafri3466 Link the hits you are referring to, because I don't recall them. In fact, I found a video Sportsnet put together of all of the rough stuff from the game, and I am failing to see any dangerous hits by McAvoy. Not a single dirty hit by McAvoy, so you'll have to show me what you're talking about: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-sLXUHcmJoZg.html
There’s a reason the Leafs (and I’m guessing other teams as well) are pointedly aware of who is officiating their games-the Leafs even had the officials up on their game plan wall in the locker room during the “All or Nothing” series. Refs shouldn’t be a factor in how you prep for or play the game.
@@pdcrmr The Umpires call balls and strikes the same as they do every game, that's why you can scout them. NHL refs don't make calls of all kinds, or maybe they do. Refs are consistently inconsistent.
@@Heggsabee you could insert any referee's name into that statement and still be 100% accurate. Poor reffing has affected individual games, entire seasons and many many records. How many goals do you think OV would have if any of his 3000 hits were penalized for charging . Charging is exactly what it's called when you leave your feet.
You can’t have it both ways. Either they call every single minor infraction - slowing down the game ( fans don’t want that as evidenced a million times on broadcasts) or you let them play and sometimes it gets out of hand. There is no magic middle ground. Once you understand that teams have to adapt as the game goes. Been this way for 100 years already.
Absolutely! I want to hear some accountability and reasoning on why things were called or were called! It’s not fair they get to be so negligent and not have to answer to anything.
Jets fan also. On a local Winnipeg radio station they discussed how the players are responsible for "managing" their stick work. If they injure someone with their stick, they're responsible and are penalized,, accidental or not. Same goes for the body. They're responsible for their "knees" also and should be penalized. Including knee on knee and KNEE ON HEAD !!!!
not a jets fan but no not all knees should be majors. Many are complete accidents of miss position and not intent thus a two minute -. If you played at any level above house league you should be capable of understanding this.
Yeah, that was awesome. Especially when Simmer took a penalty that gave up a power play goal and basically threw away any chance at a comeback. HE’S A HOCKEY GENIUS!!!!! (sarcasm)lol
@@donnadoyawanna1 yawn who cares about a hypothetical point when the buds have been getting run over for 2 straight nights and the refs haven’t been calling shit, we’re at a place in the standings where the camaraderie of the team is more important than a single win
@@StoneMason103 well said, I felt the same way at the end of the game, much prefer watching them stick up for one another despite the loss, Leafs are miles ahead of the Jets in skill, I'm not that worried.
Why? No other league does that. The only ones constantly complaining when they lose is the Leafs. Seems to be just another excuse. Take the loss like a pro and move on.
@@noahschuster188 Technically refs aren't made available after the game in the NBA, but they do do a report that is made public after the game, which is still a good idea because it makes the refs accountable for the mistakes they made. Even if the NHL refs aren't made available after the game they should do a report like that NBA and make it public to hold them accountable for stupid calls/non calls. Each team should be allowed to submit a certain number of calls/non calls and make the refs explain why they did or didn't make those calls. Any explanation is better than non at all
@@noahschuster188 NO they don’t - what you may be referring to is the last two minutes of the game report - but refs don’t sit down for press conferences answering questions you silly twit. DO SOME RESEARCH back at ya!
my bad leafs playoff memories go far behind that. 6 shots in an elimination game against new jersey is my personal favourite. i also loved when cujo dummied mick mcgeough.
just about to write the same thing. I remmeber watching the game again (as I had taped it) and counting the shots myself, WAY more than 6, but yea, still embarrassingly woeful
They need to have an eye in the sky ref, two on the ice, one or more watching video feeds. There's no need for a poorly reffed game with all the technology they have available to them.
This is a league that denies the link between CTE and fighting, big hits etc... They're dinosaurs when it comes to modern day shit, eye in the sky technology will come to the league by the time every other major NA league has perfect refs
I remember game 2 against Boston. Opening faceoff won, Muzzin has the puck behind the leafs net. Puck is long gone, and I think it was Heinan takes 2 full strides after the puck is gone and runs Muzzin, then gives him two cross checks to the back of the head. I knew in that moment, when the ref was looking at it and said "that's okay", I knew the Leafs were going to lose the game. Had hope for the series until Kadri did what he did. Also counted 16 elbows thrown at Marner's head that one game, not one call. And my step brother is a Boston fanatic. Birthday gatherings have been awkward :P
“You really have to actively be a hockey fan…” Truest statement I’ve heard in a while. There are other sports that I can enjoy without even rooting for a team (nfl, nba, premier). It’s because there’s a firm definition of the rules that everyone understands and accepts AND enforces whether you like it or not.
Those leagues have their own issues with rules too. NFL has holding every play, wildly selective with pass interference, and the whole “what is a catch?” debacle.
Yah nfl has no clue where timeout the ball and the nba has calls that are so invisible but yet no one says anything so please and to watch another soccer player fall and dive
Instead of Spezza getting suspended…Brad Meier should be suspended for being a terrible ref. Even if it’s just a 2 call a penalty on Pionk and none of the other shit happens even if I also disagree with the Matthews getting a penalty in the Dubois scrum.
@@troywallace7011 Spezza tried to kill Pionk. It would’ve been an incident far worse than the Tavares one if Spezza hadn’t missed by inches. It was an all time worst hit attempt by Spezza.
It's a domino effect. If the knee on Sandin is called, Pionk doesn't get hit in the head. If they called the Spezza hit on Pionk, everything else doesn't happen. Just calling one play right makes many of the other plays avoidable.
You are 100% correct. That's a 5 minute major penalty. Leafs take their pp and maybe try and get back into the game and maybe it's not a circus and they take a number for next game. I can totally understand why Spezza as an almost 20 year NHL vet was seeing red when there was no call on Pionk.
That knee on knee hit by Pionk along with the subsequent "revenge" hit by Spezza reminds me of the Kadri suspension when he cross checked DeBrusk after DeBrusk had clearly hit him with a dirty knee earlier in that game. I don't condone hits like Kadri or Spezza did but neither of those happen if the Refs do their job and call the major penalties when they occur. Why can't penalties be reviewable like goals/offsides/etc. At least we'd get it right and these revenge tactics would be a lot fewer. I don't care how long it extends the game... if it avoids injuries or suspension... DO IT!!! It took all of about 5 seconds for anyone to watch the replay of the Pionk hit to realize it was a major penalty!
I get the feeling someone is gonna have their career ended due to all of this bad officiating and the lack of effort to improve it by the NHL. Even if someone does get their career ended, I'm sure the NHL will do nothing about it then either. The best sport in the world run by the worst people in the world.
Only way they will change is if that player sued super successfully for a shit ton of money and sets a precedence where other players can legally win and take big money.
Poeple act like thats gonna change.. players already lossed their careers for injurys on dirty plays lol… its a violence sport also so thats like saying no hitting in NFL im not saying fights 24/7 but i loved the intensity of the game
@@ItsLaforge So, we're just supposed to accept that bad officiating results in players controlling the game themselves and potentially ending careers because it's a violent sport? Man, I sure hope you don't take care of any family members with that kind of attitude because you clearly don't care about anyone but yourself and your own entertainment.
Also not mentioned in this video (I don’t believe at least), Pionk’s unnecessarily high hit on Marner last year when he was just floating in an empty netter and, what I believe actually escalated tension earlier in this game, Pionk absolutely mauling Bunting behind the net in very much a not “fighting for the puck” kind of way with the only result being no roughing penalty, but the ref coming over to BUNTING because he dropped an f-bomb. Pionk is a punk and officiating was horrendous were my two biggest takeaways from this game with leafs looking bad being a diiiiiiistant third.
Classic jets attacking people after empty nets. They’re a team of sore losers. When the Wild just destroyed them last time we met they were throwing shots and trying to injure every player on our team.
I'd love to hear this be talked about on the podcast! That no call on Sandin was unbelievable, I felt so bad seeing him struggle to get off the ice while play went on. And that Dubois wrestling thing was some of the stupidest shit ive seen. Both knee strikes were dangerous, but I think a lot of people were wanting a response. And tbh, I was happy to see Keefe, Clifford and Simmons response in the end. The game became a joke, and the win was no longer what mattered
Well said. Couldn't agree more. Mugging of Mathews, knees to Sandin and Woll...what does it take to get a call? The worst officiating I've seen in a long time. That happens and I'd be beelining to their best player and exchanging liberties.
The NHL needs to be able to start fining referees. Having some actual responsibility for their job performance would take ref's egos out of the game real quick. Steve says they should have to answer questions, but we all know they'd give the same kind of non-answers players do. Players and staff can be fined, why not refs?
@@deahelkcunklaer2180 next game vs the Jets, they better call up Kurtis Gabriel and Curtis Douglas from the Marlies. Those guys with Sjmmonds, Clifford, and when is Ritchie going to do something, I thought he was a tough guy. Would be chaos!
aside from all the officiating issues, I would love to know where the concussion spotters were all game. at least one player from each team should have been pulled for tests and....... nothing!
Seems like there are little repercussions for bad performing refs in the NHL. If the NHL refs had being sent down to the minors hanging over their head maybe it would improve performance. Why not make it the same as NHL players have to deal with, perform or go back to the minors and some else gets a chance to be better. Repeat bad performers should get stuck in the minors just like players and be paid accordingly. Why shouldn't a ref performing really well in the minors be given a shot if there are nhl refs that repeatedly call bad games!
Going to be real sad on hearing how many months Sandin is out from that "clean" hit by Pionk. Is too bad Spezzas "Clean" hit the legal target he was obviously aiming for.
Although I don't agree with what happened either way, if you watch the replay, Spezza lead with his shoulder but the player dove to get his stick. I'm not saying it wasn't intentional but at least he can defend that one.
@@jfk4919 a few seconds? I don't know what you were watching. He saw Spezza coming in with his shoulder and less then 1 second before Spezza would of checked him, he slid to the ice and got kneed. If it was up to me, I wouldn't of kneed his head intentionally, I would of waited for him to be on his feet and either put him through the glass or knock his teeth down his throat with my knuckles. I love and miss old time hockey, I don't like intentionally doing a cheap and dirty hit, regardless of the team or player. I personally can't stand the Tkatchuk Brothers (although I loved watching their father) and would live to have somebody, anybody, knock them both out but I wouldn't want anybody to take a cheap dirty hit on either of them. Being dirty or cheap is not good hockey or a good player.
Why did Mathews get a penalty on the Dubois incident? Was it 2 mins for allowing himself to be bear hugged? I felt like nobody talked about that. Matthews is right, it turned into a gong show.
As a philly fan (so I have no horse in this particular race) the reffing in this league has been appalling for years, no accountability and a reluctance to improve, just utterly useless, the zebra's out in the savannah would do a better job at reffing game than these clowns
Jets fan here, respect for the honest opinion on the spezza hit on pionk. WWish both hits didn't happen. But a lot of people are happy with what spezza did to pionk, which i don"t think is ok. Pionk was wrong for his hit. But regardless. We don't want to kill someone!
If you’ve played hockey you understand where Spezzas head space was, TBH I would have done the same as Spezza, refs arent going to officiate the players take things into their own hands
The hit looks much worse then it is because of pionk losing his stick and trying to get the puck out with his hand, if pionk would have not kneed sandin he would of still had his stick and it never would have happened.
I've been commenting on how Simmonds and Clifford really showed a lot of character, they backed their teammates. Ritchie, Muzzin, Spezza, Bunting...I salute you. I never blame the refs, I always say that yu should play aove that. NOT ANYMORE!!!! Campbell got hit in the head the night before, Reilly and another player were both holding the stick, only Reilly goes! Woll gets hit in the head the very next night, Matthews looked like he was in the WWE, on the receiving end...knee-on-knee's, and the rest of the crap!!! Simmonds couldn't breathe without going to the box!!!! It's not even funny, how can the the NHL watch that game and NOT do anything!!!!
Simmonds trying to fight everyone no one wants to. But Stanley with the 3rd man in. That whole game was a garbage. I also thought if a ref is a cause for a goal it doesn't count. But there's does.
Winnable game or not, Leafs needed to respond like this. Tired of goons thinking they can do whatever they want to the Leafs.. lucky this didn't turn out like Rangers v Caps.
On a play when a player is injured or when there is such an uproar from a dirty or not dirty play is it really too much to stop the game for 2-3 minutes or if there’s no whistles to look at the replay during the next stoppage? And don’t say it’s gonna slow the game down bc it doesn’t happen too often and everyone just wants the right call or at least an explanation
From what I’ve seen, I hope Pionk doesn’t get suspended for the knee on knee. To me, it looked like pionk looked away from Sandin to the puck he shot and when he turned to go after it, he went directly into Sandin. I’m not happy Sandin got hurt but to me it looked like an accident.
So smart Steve. The entertainment needs to be accountable and answer questions even when they are uncomfortable, so why don't the ref's?! They are a part of the game...an integral part of the game. Smart Steve!
Serious question: in what other professional sports leagues are the officials made available for the media after games? I know the "big four" in North America don't, but what about EPL, tennis, cricket, etc.? Any Danglers out there have any insight?
I’m glad you brought up that Game 2 against Boston, that was a joke and set the tone for the whole series….honestly the NHL is such a joke when it comes to protecting players and the fact it was the same crew just exposes how much a joke the product has become.
You hit the nail Steve, however, I'm getting too tired as a hockey fan, and see myself walking away at some point if things don't get better, heck, I'm still reeling from that awful broadcast contract trying to find games to watch. Great video btw as always, thanks.
Spezza's hit was shit, shouldn't have happened, he should get suspended. It shouldn't see a game more than Poink's though. That's easily the most blatant knee on knee hit I've seen in years.
Agreed, or have Gary answer postgame questions as a liaison since he doesn’t want officials under fire. Zero accountability is a reoccurring theme with this league as of late.
it's funny that I don't care about the leafs losing at all, they've been playing super well and you can't win every game especially back to back with a third string. but that brutal kneeing non-call overshadowed everything, absolutely shameful
Exactly. The Leafs are doing great, they can handle a loss on a back-to-back against a non-division opponent. The problem is the fallout from how one stupid, stupid game will affect them down the road. I wonder if there's rules in place for a team to formally protest a game and just not send the team back out on the ice.
@@muskieman9522 Can you blame the Leafs in this case? With what happened to Mathews and then Sandin during that game, it only makes sense that Keefe would want to protect his players with his enforcers. I don't like it, as it took away from the Leafs chances at winning this game, but I understand fully where he was coming from.
@@muskieman9522 after the knee job byy pionk and there being no retribution the jets would have done the same thing and don't say they would not have dillion tried to fight bunting when the game was still 1to 1 after bunting took a roughing penalty (which it was and was called ) but dillion had his gloves of ready to jump him, but instead pionk ran and hid Stanley did not want to fight Simmonds intill there were refs in between them to save him hence the lifting of the trophy that was to the ref gods for him not having to eat knuckles. I would have ran that line all night to, why in the hell would you put your superstar players out there when the refs are not controlling the game and the other team is taking liberties with your players let us talked about the fact that Neal pionk could have ended sandins career on that hit and that's okay and punching Mathews in the back of the head and trying to drive his face numerous times into the ice is okay but it's not okay to put the players out there to protect your stars wow we live in a backwards world
The referees should face suspensions for mismanaged games and bad missed calls resulting in player injury. It is abysmally stupid that the refs are not accountable, either to the NHL or the public. And fining coaches or players who call out shoddy refereeing is absolutely stupid.
@@Arrdeegee okay and then they dont have a job, replace them almost immediately with robots or whoever wants to make the money the refs were making . If basic levels of responsibility and real consequences for doing a shitty job at your only job, where you might work 3 hours a day 3 days a week making somewhere between 165k-300k cause you to quite your job you shouldnt have it in the first place.
The more this season goes on, the more we all see how much growing the league has to do. They gotta be better on so many different levels. ON OTHER NEWS GO LEAFS GOOOO!!!!
this was (in my opinion) your best ever... and you are 100% correct about officials availability after the game - same for DOPS(Parros) - between his doctor's appointments where they are talking to him about his multiple concussions, they may want him in media explaining why he judged the same play a year ago so differently or why Marchand (repeat offender) always gets the minimum suspension or fine. transparency
The positive out of this game is... WE WON'T BE BULLIED OR PUSHED AROUND. I love the way our guys responded. Kudos to Spezza, Simmonds & Clifford. I'm giving the Leafs a mulligan on this one. They've been on a tear the last 20games. Just one of those nights. Sandin is a STUD... keeping our fingers crossed.
Thought experiment: in the case where the two refs miss a bad call, allow the two linesmen the ability to call major penalties (only). Eight eyes are better than four.
Leafs are so fun to beat! Immensely talented, with a wildly frenetic fan base and media that always react desperately afterwards. It's the best. This game had missed calls no doubt, but Matthews is gonna have to learn to stick up for himself if he wants to break through in the post season.
I love that the 2 players called out as dirty on the Jets both came from the Metropolitan division. If you think those were dirty, then don't watch the Metro because that's commonplace there (well not the goalie hit).
@@SirDeerock yeah Okay. Joe Thornton was as dirty as they come. Ask Sidney Crosby how clean he was. Reminder I said was as he not there now. However Simmonds isn’t an angel either. What numbers are you pulling out of your ass.
@@johnyule1614 soooo your way of proving the leafs are a dirty team is by naming a player who was with them for one year who didn't take many penalties and was never suspended while with the team? I think you're proving my point for me
@@SirDeerock oh please you silly clown. Don’t act like your beloved team are a bunch of ballerina dancing simpletons. Guaranteed that Spezza gets at least a game maybe 3-5 for that hit. Pionk getting retribution for Sandy’s knee on knee with Wheeler last year!
What really strikes me about hockey is how we (and I put myself in this category too) like to question the timing of a call as opposed to the penalty. We ask 'Why did he make that call at that time of the game?" instead of asking 'Why was (player) doing something illegal?" Call the rule book. It will take a bit of time for players to adjust, but we will get to see stars be stars.
I think I'll get my grandmother to knit Stanley a WWE belt so he can run around his home wearing it in his little fantasy thinking he actually did something. I was actually embarrassed for the Jets on that one.
In a situation like this, I (albeit surprisingly) agree with Sean Avery. If the refs don't call some dirtiness, dump the puck in and run the opposing goalie. ...really, really hard.
Remember, it goes both ways... As a die hard Leafs fan, I can't imagine what it would feel like having Campbell injured because the refs made a call that the other team didn't like...
@@Katusha077 that happened in Minnesota and in Winnipeg to a lesser extent. At some point if the officials are either unwilling or incapable of doing their jobs - you have to take things in your own hands.
I understand the spirit or intent of what you are saying... but frankly there's a better solution - which Borje Salming used to use. I first observed it in person during the playoff series between Toronto an Philadelphia the first year that the Flyers won the cup. After getting speered (sp?) and run several times Salming shouted initially at the referee (Wally Harris) "Do your job"... then again a few minutes later... Harris as always skated away with his head tilted backwards. When the inept officiating continued, Salming used an approach he often used to clear the puck from his own zone when killing penalties - by ringing the puck high and hard around boards. Most of the time he was very accurate and fired waste high but rising and the puck would travel past the opposition defenseman. That night he started firing noticeably lower a couple of times - and when one felled Harris - he skated by and pointed "Do your job". You might not like it... but he made his point. And there's nothing the official can do about it.
Steve thanks for speaking up about officiating!!!! Hopefully, Sandin knee is okay. Dubois manhandling Mathews and the officals not calling a penalty is terrible. Do NHL officials have to do eye tests each year? I think they should start!
I once wrote a short essay about fighting in hockey, and your point about why there's fights is exactly what I wrote. There's three reasons there's fighting in hockey. 1. it's a fast, aggressive sport, and tempers will fray. This is unavoidable, and the only LEGITIMATE reason for a fight. 2. Players fight to intimidate the other team, or motivate their own. This is the player doing something AGAINST THE RULES to gain an advantage. There's another name for that: CHEATING. It's not a valid reason to have a fight. 3. Players fight to protect themselves and each other because the officials WILL NOT or CAN NOT protect them. This isn't entirely on the officials, it's on the players who are out there deliberately cheap shotting each other, trying to get away with dirty play. If the players cut that crap out, there would be no problems. I mean, the officials CAN'T see everything, it's just not humanly possible. So, the players have no choice but to take matters into their own hands. As long as this is the case, the fighting will go on.
Regardless of the reffing in this game, having the refs be held accountable by answering questions doesn't seem like a bad idea to me. Why not? If a ref said, "From my perspective it looked like an unintended collision where player x was unable to avoid player y and it is not a reviewable play," I might doubt them but at least they explained themselves.
I will never *never* understand how the NHLPA calls itself a union when it isn't willing to call out dangerous officiating like this. When it isn't willing to try and and change the game away from one that leaves its top fiscal contributors and earners vulnerable to injury.
I am not saying this is why they lost, but the reffing was biased in favour of the jets. sandin kneed. no call. dubois sitting on matthews. no call. scrums and only leafs get penalized. horrible
This was a dirty game on both sides. Pionk's knee on knee and PLD's cross checking were gross. That being said, Spezza's hit could have been career ending and was easily suspendible. No need for a hit like that by a stand up veteran no matter how mad you are. Eerily reminiscent of the Tavares hit but this one was 100% intentional. Also, Simmonds' antics were just stupid. Blatant trip and high cross check during the face off. Bad officiating and too many emotions taking over.
