@@bligabliga With Rey and Finn that I can understand. But Kylo was trained by Luke. There's a 30 year gap between ROTJ and the sequels that's 30 years of training. You'd think in all that time they would have done their research in the traditional training of a Jedi especially in how to use a lightsaber. So theoretically speaking Kylo can beat pretty much anyone in a duel using the fighting styles seen in the previous episodes, particularly the Prequels. So while I understand your logic things still don't add up.
@@Imakeplaylists-in1pw *sigh* yeah i thought of that too. If i had to patch up the terrible writing, i would say maybe Kylo never completed his lightsaber training with Luke, but then maybe Snoke mightve completed it? And if he did get proper lightsaber training i would say maybe his temper interferes and he just swings out of anger. But hopefully George Lucas undos the trauma we suffered and gives us something great to forget all about these 'sequels'
@@bligabliga Even you have a better idea for a story than a million dollar woke factory. And I'm pretty sure George Lucas no longer has anything to do with the current era of star wars. They made the mistake of discarding his story ideas and just swung at it hoping to land.
@@Imakeplaylists-in1pw thank you. And i havent looked into it but didnt they sell Star Wars back to him? Might look it up in a bit but if true i think we may get a new trilogy. Fingers crossed.
Bro honestly Finn shouldnt have even been able to block a single strike force wielders are said to be really fast and all the other lightsaber fights are supposed to be in slow motion which is what we see so either kylo was really really slow and weakened or Disney just forgot that force speed was a thing
@@toyingaroundtoys Stormtroopers don't get training with Lighsabers. Only Martial arts, blaster shooting training and many other trainings to harden them up. But not definitely lightsaber training
@dominickeijzer5844 Basically, if you want good choreography, go watch dancing. A movie is about the story telling. There's a reason the OT is loved so much more than the prequels. It's because they didn't waste our time with CGI nonsense. It's all about the character moments. Luke losing his mentor, finding out Darth Vader is his father and ultimately rejecting the dark side. These moments were far more well loved than flashy lights and more flashy lights and overacting and then even more flashy lights
@@leikfroakies How about emotional moments like the forming chasm between student and mentor, two brothers being forced apart by combat? Or, how about a battle for the fate of the universe? Those can be emotional.
Fun fact: the lightsaber duels are meant to represent ancient Japanese samurai fighting techniques and the story fits with that as well. The story kind has inspiration from the Japanese civil war and darth Vader is meant to represent (sort of originally) oda nobunaga
And it makes sense that the new younger generation of the lightsaber wielders to not be as train um a bunch of the skilled people are well DEAD!!!!! So they weren't probably trained
Also them seem to be getting it now The way Ashoka Tano(padowan of Anakin Skywalker) held her lightsaber in some scenes were like holding a katana heck it's curved like one And one of the people she fought almost held his like a long sword of sort While Anakin held and used his anyhow 😂 Boy was just swinging it and still kicking ass like he used to
Whoa whoa. Don’t get me wrong, I agree with you but I remember the OG Star Wars fans were complaining about the acrobatics in the prequels compared to the original trilogy. Now we’re back to complaining the the sequel trilogy choreography when in actuality the sequel trilogy is closer to the original in terms of lightsaber duels. Things really do circle back around.
@@alcoballic9593The actual problem isn't the choreography, newer star wars duels are filmed using primarily the over shoulder camera view, with a lot of video cuts. Instead of a zoomed out size view like the prequels, so it makes the choreography look uninteresting. They should go back to wide shots from the side like the prequels.
@@alcoballic9593 The Newer ones are god awful because there are several points in the duel where it feels good but the rest is jsut them swinging a heavy sword even though its light as fuck
@@mnomadvfxI mean, it was the supposed Choosen One, one of the strongest Jedis to ever exist powered by the Dark Side, against his own master that taught him most of what he knows. If there could be a duel that is overkill, it should be that one.
@@kirrintherouge7107 There is weight to normal swords too, but real practitioners don’t go around just swinging them randomly, the point I and the OP are making is that there are real forms for lightsaber combat and Kylo Ren never seems to use any of them.
@@asian_nerd11 disney made it like that cus they said that it isn't realistic by swinging lightsaber like that so they changed it instead of aiming on body to aiming and hitting the blade
@@cirrusfox8052 guard sabers like kylo’s actually do have weight if anything the way he swings it shows how strong he is because you’re supposed to hold it with two hands
Well, the entire Jedi order collapsed, and quite a few sith like Dooku and Vader were trained by the Jedi order, so canonically, the prequels Jedi had thousands of years of discipline and practice behind them, and Kyle Ren was very poorly trained by a Jedi who was trained by a few old masters without the rest of the order.
Choreography was the whole problem, it threw all realism through the window. Are you fighting for your life or dancing ? Ren chose knight-style over kapoera, how is that wrong ?
@@romdorezIt ain't about realism, it's a movie about people in another galaxy who travel to other planets and fight eachother with glowing swords over random beefs and use some force of nature that exists there in order to fight eachother, since when was it supposed to be realistic? It's meant to be appealing and look cool, since it IS fiction.
in canon, lightsabers vibrate worse than a high priced marital aid. They are legitimately difficult to wield effectively, even if you're skilled in normal swordplay, and force attunement helps you subtly move your hand to compensate for it which explains why Finn or Rey would have a hard time, but the only reason Kylo would be having trouble is if he's stopped listening to the force (given his erratic state of mind throughout, this is a possibility)
This right here is the correct answer ^ The jedi/sith from the republic era had training from a young age and were brought from apprentice to master in lightsaber forms and styles. Lightsaber wielders from the new republic/first order time period have very little education and training as there isn't exactly schools/temples around to teach them.
@@FireSparq They still had a military that utilized batons, so they should have had a basic understanding to their use. I also find it hard to believe that recordings of sword duels and close quarter combat didn't exist.
You mean Vader vs obi wan…… Yeah I just dead a dumbfounded move…. But it’s still the same on a certain point of view…. But at least the obi wan series duels aren’t even base ball bats and just like proper swords (mainly because of Vader’s limitations and obi wan’s ptsd)
Fun fact about the obi-wan/maul fight, it was so fast paced that the movie was actually SLOWED DOWN so you could understand what was happening. They were so good at it, that they had to slow down the footage to understand what was happening. Apparently. That’s just what I’ve heard. Still cool tho.
Stfu y'all bitch about how flashy the light Saber duels were in the prequels now that it's grounded and sloppy it now sucks star wars fans don know what they want and never happy this is the worst fanbase other fans of any franchise should never be like a star wars fanboy nothing there useless nothing good there not happy
Well ATOTC Anakin and obi vs dooku was not great but far better then any sequel fight Edit: also the fight im talking about isn't bad because of the choreography it's bad bc of the bad camera work/angles
@@cooperdesrocher6046 what? in what way is the camera work bad? I have heard A LOT of complaints about the Prequels but the camera work and the lightsaber fights have never one of them
Let me repeat it for you, the camera work is BAD with a capital B. It's a lame CGI shitfest that tries to turn Jedi into Marvel Superheros instead of a decent swordfight with real stakes. Prequel fights are over-coreographed, silly, cartoonish, and undermine the original trilogy's more deliberate and drama-oriented fights.
@@user-ul8xu8sk5icompletely agree. And dont get me wrong. I actually like AoTC. Like, if might be one of the most important movies in the original 6.. everything plot wise really comes from episode 2. But the whole duel sequence at the end, dooku vs obi / anakin, and dooku vs yoda, was shot so terribly. They really tried with the yoda CGI, and with christopher lees limitations and them trying to actually include him in as many shots allows me to forgive that duel and find joy in it. But how they shot anakin vs dooku, and the whole scene, was BAD. again, choreography good, filming bad.
I think the best lightsaber choreography I’ve ever seen is in those Old Republic trailers. When that guy fought both Sith Lords duel wielding a double and single blade, I literally crapped my pants
Oh you mean that annoying Long Range Weapon, I fking hate Long range and Heavy Weapons in Shadow Fight 2, Tridents are annoying in SF2, I only love Tridents in Minecraft🗿
Damn what a game it was. Brought back my memories. But you know whats the saddest part? After the gates of shadow incident, i used mod as the progress became real slow and i reget it real bad. But the journey was fun.
The truth is that back then they used simple sticks to fight and then put special effects on top of the stick, but now we have heavy light sabers that don't need special effects, but because they are heavy the fights are much slower
I think its cause the people in episode 7,8,9 just arent good with the force and have little training with the lightsaber (and kylo is just bad and constantly angry) reason 1,2,3 are good is caused they are taught since birth and know what to do.
The reason for the changes come from inconsistent decisions from Lucas. In the original trilogy the savers were Excalibur like baton swords that were heavy. Mark hamil lives in Japan in between empire and Jedi and brought back the idea of faster motion and bring back some original inspiration from Japanese samurai duels that Lucas took inspiration from. The prequels amped it up to an extreme by making the sabers so light and excessive flashy moves. JJ Abrahms retook inspiration from Samurai films and brought back kendo and the logical step of adding force powers into the fights. Didn't make the story better till last Jedi but then it becomes a you ruined my childhood with a grown up interpretation of how massive a failure Luke made in training and not stopping Kylo Ren. I don't want a war in comments about why you didn't like a movie but just wanted to add to why the duels look so radically different.
@@yesmeanshhsofficial well according to the lore (or at least my understanding of it) a lightsaber gets it’s weight from the emotions of it’s user so people are angrier and don’t know how to use their anger to wield the sabers properly
Further? Prequels are previous to old republic. Also this is talking about real life coreographies, its pretty easy (i know its everything but easy) editing it virtually (sorry for english), but doing this kindda stuff in rl... Prequel actors had to train for literal months
@@KushagraKaundilya-jd9ynYes. Altho he is not known for his dueling ability. He's known for his force power. But he's still a grandmaster. Mace windu was known for his dueling capability. Palpatine would have lost that battle against windu if Anakin didn't blind side him. Windu was the only Jedi strong enough to go toe to toe with palpatine and win. Windu has had a bit of the dark side him in that allowed him to fight and win, not just defend.
Sir Christopher Lee (count Dooku) was a trained and very experienced swordsman, for decades and decades. Dooku's style and mannerisms make him iconic, just like the man who played them. Where'd the dedication to the craft go...
To be honest it does look cooler the old way but anyone with weapons training will tell you it's a bunch of unnecessary movement in reality... although it does take time to learn it all ...that being said the new movies is like watching kids play fight with sticks
Back then: getting stabbed with a lightsaber meant literal death Now: getting stabbed with a light saber is like taking a paintball shot Edit: because people keep bringing it up, darth maul didn’t just wake up in a hospital bed totally fine, his hatred for obi wan kept him alive (barely) and even then he needed prosthetics and couldn’t even fight the same. In the comic darth sion was practically immortal because of this.
Exactly, back then the reality of how a light saber would work as it ionizes and vaporizes everything around the wound would result in such a strike as we saw in Qui Gon being fatal. Now every MF'er and their mom survives that kind of damage.... It's like light sabers aren't even dangerous anymore. Not to mention light sabers in current Disney fashion seem incapable of cutting through anything.
@@Shishomuru exactly it’s like all of a sudden Jedi have tungsten steel guts or something but conveniently they can cut a door down or one shot a storm trooper. It’s just backwards
@SebastianStangl-nk8gq they actually made a reason for why/how he survived, and he never actually got his bottom half back. Instead, he had to find an alternative form of legs
Out of the sequels the duel on Star Killer Base and on Crait are my favorites. Star killer base duel was really good at explaining Kylo's character, him underestimating Rey and how Rey fights back. Duel on Crait was an emotional one, I don't mind the force projection because Luke isn't just a master Jedi. He's the embodied hope and stalls. And he genuinely apologizes because he failed. The stories may be weak but those two fuels pack the most emotional punch
To be fair, Finn and Ray were not trained, and Ren was half trained. Of course Finn and Ray are going to have no idea how to use a lightsaber properly, let alone have grace while doing it
Well my friend that's how all close-combat weapons are supposed to be used. As an extension of one's body. That's why older saber combat was better bc they understand this type of shit
@@andrewtallman1867 Ren could've had access to the Holocubes to learn better forms, they couldn't have destroyed all the ones that were in the Jedi Temple's library.
Form? Are you kidding? The Original Trilogy had WAY better form than Both of these trilogies. Obi wan vs Vader has based off of 1500s Japanese Samurai dueling and Luke vs Vader (Episode 6) was based off fencing and traditional European sword fighting. A competent and practical duelist looks more from the OT than PT or ST. Can you guys stop blowing up my notifications. There’s a reason I stopped responding to the prequel fanboys.
Bingo, the prequels were treated too harshly considering the absolute dog shit we got afterwards. The only objectively GOOD live action Star Wars we've gotten since the Prequels is Rogue One and Andor.
The real reason is because the haters are now old and nobody cares about them. The kids that grew up with the prequels are now the majority and have the loudest opinion on the internet. In 20 years the internet will be talking about how good the sequels are.
@@jan_780fleischer5no reason? Bro was probably the strongest duellist after old luke skywalker he's small, fast, difficult to hit and has insane reflexes and superhuman perseption while being the strongest force user in the republic
that would be to unfair that duel is one of the greatest things ever put to screen nothing it's literally the best thing to ever come out of star wars universe
No I'm pretty sure there is no choreography but they still give them vague instructions like "Rey should absolutely win despite Kylo Ren showing more mastery and experience" "kylo ren have to look very agressive while attacking" but nothing more
@luckydust4375 the writing is terrible like how are you gonna have hux devote his life to the first order and kill billions only to make him a spy for the resistance💀💀💀
For me the only unforgettable Lightsabrebattles where Obiwan vs Anakin in ROTS (though it looked awful at times), the Quigon vs Darth Maul one in Phantom Menace (also due to the music) and .... OK that was it. They are way overused in SW movies and that caused it to be nothing special anymore. Though I did like the setting and the colors in the Rey/Kylo fight during the winterscene in Force Awakens.
With Christopher Lee's age on that time, some movement might be done by stunt double, but Christopher Lee himself is also a skilled fencer to begin with. Credits to them to make the movement look so good.
