As others have said and which I will unimaginatively repeat, as someone living 160 miles west of Chelsea and whose job now entails zero visits to London then the maps are really useful.
The maps are a huge help, as someone who has been to London exactly once, and lives on another continent a basic understanding of where lines go is immensely helpful
As someone not even living in the UK, the maps really help to get a sense of those proposals. Maybe in the future you can show the entire route on top of a google earth/maps screenshot?
I liked the brief maps too👍 "Ministers are even more ignorant than me..." Too modest again sir😀. Anyone who can keep us nerds so abley entertained must be comparatively well informed. Keep up the good work
Living in Chingford, a busy NE London suburb, it's always irked me that we are not on the tube, whilst some places like Acton and Ruislip have three or four each.😡
Definitely do the Hackney-Chelsea line proposal. I am suitably intrigued 🤔 There is a certain irony in that the line involved was called Victoria and the block came because the residents (literally and metaphorically) saw a tube station on their manor as ‘beneath them, because I am quite sure that had the actual Victoria said how much she wanted a tube station in Chelsea it would have happened and all the sycophant residents would have fallen over themselves to claim that they had wanted one all along 🙄 Ah well, that’s progress for ya 🤷🏻♂️ Cheers old fruit! Highly entertaining, informative and cuttingly witty as ever 👍🍀🍻
Yay, maps! Cheers, Jago. They make it SOOOOO much easier to understand! (Though that audio glitch at 2:02 when the second map is shown made me jump - or was that a deliberate ploy to test to see if I was awake?)
... How sensual some people are is bewildering / irritating / funny. Or is the reason I don't mind just that I think in terms of processes and that I know humans make mistakes. Only the dangerous ones need full attention 😉
Another great video, thank you Mr Hazzard! I love the use of maps. Does nothing to detract from your great whit, humour and knowledge. In fact, they enhance it! Keep it up sir and look forward to seeing more videos!
There will be a station in Kings Road in Chelsea in the 2030s maybe (run by Crossrail 2). However, some people aren’t happy with the idea, and it’s possible that the plan could be scrapped, and therefore direct Crossrail 2 from Clapham Junction to Victoria. Oh, and one more thing. There have been two attempts of a Chelsea to Hackney line in 1974 and 1988, but both have been unsuccessful.
Recently I’ve had to travel from Enfield to Chelsea for work, the line would’ve been handy. Route C imagine what could’ve been though, a stop for Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and a possible extension to Edmonton, which apparently was a suggested terminus for Victoria and Piccadilly lines. Maybe that’s a video in itself.
This is probably poor YT etiquette, but I have a request. My IG feed advised tours of the London tram tunnels were being organised, and I was hoping you might be able to partake, with the outcome hopefully being a video?
Greetings XJ6. Regarding the work of the committee, I'm not sure if you realised it already but 3 anagrams (amongst many, some of which are very rude) of "London Plan Working" are "All doing known porn", " Noon gin plankworld" and "W*nking on porn doll". A little light "relief" for this subject you have presented to the usual high standard. Do keep up the good work in the community. Kind regards as always
Speaking to my neighbours, there appears to be no interest in having a Crossrail station in Chelsea, in fact the campaign against it is led by Felicity Kendal.
Don't you love it when "celebrities" campaign against terrible things ....... like public transport? Much better to keep the streets of Chelsea crammed with 4x4s with clean tyres and bull-bars. Imagine, some residents might meet people who travel on Crossrail = eeew!!
I live almost 6,000 miles from Dovehouse Green but once wandered within a hundred yards from it. It's a pain in the ass to walk from there to the next tube station I wanna go to (South Kensington), but I kind of understand why there's not a tube line through the place -- the locals would be quite unhappy with the construction I guess.
You remind me of London Reconnections' maxim - the drama in the contents a report about London's Transport report are in inverse proportion to the drama in the title.
What happened to the Chingford link? I'll also repeat my request for a video on the construction of the Victoria line that ended up being built and how it managed to connect so clean opposite existing platforms at Stockwell, Euston and Oxford Circus (and Highbury and Islington which I missed and any other platform connections I missed).
Fortunately, my workplace was within 10 minutes of Sloane Square. However, there were many times when I had wished for a tube station further into Chelsea. It's a heck of a walk to Fulham and the 'buses never seemed any faster owing to heavy traffic.
What should actually have happened is the Victoria Line extension to Coulsdon North, where there was room for a depot. It should have followed the old London-Brighton road through Streatham, Norbury, West Croydon, Central Croydon, and then onwards, again following the road, to Stoat's Nest, surfacing, and terminating at Coulsdon North. Unfortunately, they have now demolished the station there and the depot area, replacing it with a much-un-needed bypass, but this could be removed fairly easily, displacing only a number of car dealers. The problem with BR services to Streatham, Norbury, and points south, is that they do not follow the road, and those are the places which most people want to connect with, so they prefer the bus, which is too slow. They therefore use their cars.
Coulsdon North station closed in the 1980's. Rather than build a new tube line, duplicating much of the excellent main line train service into London Victoria from East Croydon, I always thought that they should have extended the northern end of the M23 at Hooley to Coulsdon and then built a massive underground car park in Coulsdon possibly utilising the now closed Cane Hill hospital whilst building a big new station combining Coulsdon South, Coulsdon North, and Smitham/Coulsdon Town and then run frequent Park and Ride services from this new station to or from mainline London stations.
@@trevordance5181 You miss my point, which is that none of the existing stations between Coulsdon and London are well-placed close to local centres and do not therefore attract local traffic. London commuters locate their homes close enough to existing BR stations, which, frankly, is all they are good for. There is great scope for an Underground extension between Brixton and Coulsdon, provided it connects the centres on that route directly. Stations might be: Brixton Prison, Telford Avenue, Streatham Hill (BR), St Leonard's Church, Greyhound Lane, Norbury (BR), Pollards Hill, Thornton Heath Pond, Mayday, West Croydon (BR), Central Croydon, Swan & Sugarloaf, Red Deer, Royal Oak, Purley Fountain, Stoat's Nest, Coulsdon North. Possibly even tunnel into the North Downs (chalk: easy) to Farthing Down, Old Coulsdon, Happy Valley, Caterham-on-the-Hill. Since this follows almost exactly the old 709 Green Line route, and as we are all supposed to be “green” these days, I'd suggest naming this, and re-naming the rest of the Victoria Line, the “Green Line”.
@@trevordance5181 We moved to a house in Coulsdon that was served only by the 405 and 414 buses, and the 710 Green Line coach, which would be a useful way of getting to Croydon or Redhill. Within weeks they withdrew it!
@@allenwilliams1306 Yes, the 414 from West Croydon to Horsham via Dorking, and the 405 from West Croydon, at one time to Horsham via Crawley, then cutback to Crawley, and now it only goes as far as Redhill.
I seem to remember one of the possible lines being referred to as the 'Wimbledon-Hainault Line' (WimHain Line doesn't really work, does it?) It would have used the District Line to Putney Bridge, and then veer east down a tunnel towards Chelsea, calling at 'Worlds End' (Sands End), Chelsea Town Hall, Sloan Square, Victoria and then points eastwards, eventually using the Central Line branch to Hainault.
Hi Jago. I'd love to see a video (suspect it may be more than one) about why the tube is so top heavy. You have lines stretching out into Hertfordshire, Buckinghamshire and Essex and yet south of the river lines fizzle out still well within the bounds of greater London. I've read of moves by train company owners south of the river blocking plans to extend the underground going much further south to protect their investments, but don't know how much truth there is in these tales. Might make an interesting subject? If you've got a tube station at Amersham, why did one never appear in Weybridge or Bromley for example?
1. Geology, S of the river was once a marsh, difficult ground for tunnelling. 2. Consequence of this is that the city developed on higher ground N of the river. So, In the C19 there was still plenty of open ground to the south for surface lines, whereas to the N hills and the need to demolish existing building impeded surface rail.
One little bit omitted.... was that the original planned northern terminus in was Wood Street. In the early 60's this was cut back to Hoe Street (now Walthamstow Central)
Indeed , but well connected to London with the Jazz Service to Liverpool Street - which had passenger and train number problems at the Liverpool Street end, hence the idea of reliving some of the strain on that and other routes. Really the Victoria should have gone Highams Park - Chingford then over toward Hainault area to improve links to the council estate there and take some strain off the Central Line.
@@highpath4776 and been impossible to get on anywhere west of Walthamstow Central. The existing line is crowded enough in normal times without passengers from further north east.
What nice neat mapping. If I remember, the source maps as produced were an explosion in a spaghetti factory. It was just after the war so maybe colour was rationed because by the looks of it they were that overjoyed to get even just a couple but had little idea how to use it.
My father for one would have been a fan of the Chelsea Station, as his daily commute to LT's Lots Road Power Station would have been improved. During his time as Power Supply Manager for the Tube in the 80s and early 90s he used to complain about the walk from Sloane Sq when it rained. I'm sure he would have been interested in your videos, from a professional point of view and as an enthusiast. His work as a junior electrical engineer included work on the 60s improvements to power supply on the Northern Line ( partly an implementation of the Northern Heights upgrades, part new works) and the design of elements of the Victoria Line power supply. I had a number of my toys repaired by the fitters at Coburg Street Substation when that was a manned workshop, as he had an office there for a while. Maps! Good! ;-)
I remember when we moved to Croydon in the early 70's there was all kinds of talk of underground railways running under our road, though as I was only 3 at the time I dont know whether they related to a Victoria line extension or the proposed Channel tunnel line.
The Victoria Line was cut back at the Northern end as well; it never got to Wood Street with a cross-platform Interchange with BR. Underground lines terminating one stop short of where they were intended to seems to have been a thing, Denham and Camberwell didn’t happen either, though Camberwell did appear as a destination on the old indicator at Warwick Avenue, covered over with black paint. Tramlink didn’t get as far as intended either, it was supposed to terminate at the library/swimming pool, though I’m not sure if this would have been an additional stop, or just a re-location of the existing one. The distance between them would have been very short.
I spent my childhood about mid-way between Fulham Broadway and your Chelsea Station, so I walked this route hundreds of times, or took the 11 or 22 bus. Or 'got on my bike'.
5:20 Is that the Supperclub tube train restaurant at the Walthamstow Pumphouse Museum? Also, fascinating to see Angel Road proposed as a terminus. Great video as always. Thanks Jago.
I went to school in Chelsea and worked in the heart of Chelsea in the 80s and 90s for 13 years and the lack of a tube station meant a rather long walk every day down Pelham Street and Sydney Street from South Kensington tube in the very North of Chelsea or along Kings Road from Sloane Square on the extreme east of Chelsea. BTW Knighstbridge station is also officially in Chelsea but again on the very edge. A station somewhere around Beaufort Street would have been ideal.
I think an extra branch of the Viking line from Victoria to Richmond via Putney intersecting with the Wimbledon branch of the District line there would be very useful.
On a vaguely-related note, at 4:22 onwards where you explain the problems that would arise if two lines were to share the same tracks, platforms and signalling - I guess this is why no "bright spark" has come up with the idea of the brand-new spur of the Northern Line from Kennington loop in tunnels to Nine Elms and the Battersea mega-development continuing : • southwest to Clapham Junct`n (just imagine an Underground station at rush-hour there 😮), • then west-south-west to Wandsworth Road and • then rise to come out in the open over a new light-rail bridge crossing the Wandle (Wandsworth Creek) to pick up the little(?)-used British Rail chord spur just west of Putney Bridge Road and [a] terminate at East Putney on the virtually-disused third platform there (5:39 - 5:47), or [b] share the District from just after East Putney through Southfields and Wimbledon Park to Wimbledon. I guess this flight of fancy wouldn't work because : 1. The stations in section [b] couldn't share the signalling load 2. TfL have no money for it/ need what little they can scrape together to modernise other lines 3. South-Western Railway or some freight operator will probably want to retain the East Putney chord to run the occasional train that is nothing to do with TfL round it, towards Clapham Junction and the big bad city, in the wee small hours. Many tens of thousands of tennis fans might though appreciate an alternative way (line - to the District out of Earl's Court) down to/ back up from Southfields for the Wimbledon Championships; OK, OK there are around 350 days a year where Southfields is not 'rammed', but, the above 'flight of fancy' might be an interesting link idea...
Considering from Jay Foreman's videos how completely stuck up and resistant Chelsea are to change (name changes and the Cycle Route) and the existing Underground Faculties are behind a veneer of a fake Mansion (from various RU-vidrs like Geoff Marshall and Half-Asleep Chris), it'll take some kicking and screaming for them to even accept an Underground Station.
"Hello, this is Captain Grrrr-Uhnnnrhh, MP for Chelsea. If you dig a tube tunnel under my garden I will come round and hurhhgh hrrrr ggrrrghghnnnekhhh..."
It's an old issue too - look at a map of London's former tram system and you will find a gaping hole where the Royal Borough refused to allow access to their territory
Chelsea resident of three decades here. Yes, you are right, residents are resistant to change. Personally I believe that a stop half way down the Kings Road makes a lot of sense, it's noticeable mostly by its absence. The residents are against it because of the soulless retail spaces bolted onto it in the proposals. The same is the case for the proposed redevelopment of the the Marks and Spencer site. If you look at Kings Mall across the road, it's been a retail failure for as long as I can remember: the argument is that mall style retail spaces don't work on the KR and thus become run down & neglected.
In London transport days at least the District Line was not a "Tube Line" but a Sub-surface" Undergound line. (you can run a tube train on a sub-surface line but the other way round you take the roof off. :-)
I didn't realise that "Route D" became "Chealsea Hackney Line" and then "Crossrail 2". Given that the process is one going from undersized Victoria Line platforms (responsible for multiple short emergency closures of the entrances at Oxford Street) to full size National Rail trains on Crossrail 1, I think it is probably safe to say that the Era of "New Tube Lines in London" is officially over. (Extensions like the JLE, NLE and BLE: YES - but new lines: NO.) And I think that, moving forward, Crossrail-like projects that replace the need for people to get off of a National Rail train, cross London Underground Zone 1, and then get onto another National Rail train on the other side of Central London, are going to be the business case that makes Crossrail 2, Crossrail 3, Crossrail 4, etc happen. Edward Watkin didn't really want the Metropolitan Railway to be part of London Underground. I actually think that the future of the Chilten Railway from Aylesbury to London might be to replace Marylebone station with a Crossrail-style project that connects to somewhere in Kent. Logically, it might be good to take over the old South Eastern Railway lines to Dover and Kent and create a modern (more sensible) version of what Watkin was trying to do.
I like the idea as sometimes the district is a bit delayed but that's also a issue with the idea, when it's delayed you can have all four platforms at Wimbledon, already full, they would probably of best running it underground, basically extending there tunnel to Wimbledon under all the district line stations, that would of meant making a lift to it, so it would of probably not got a go ahead.
The District wanted to go to Sutton, but the LSWR (Southern) were not happy, The C&SLR Wanted to Go to Sutton Too. With a bit of moving about in the end , the Wimbledon-Sutton Loop got built and the Northern Got Morden, and the District got running rights to Wimbledon. Personally I think Wimbledon needs better links to West London, so running the District alternate trains off at Parsons Greenish and off onto the WLL , reinstating the mainline Willesden Junction line and up to Watford. I think this would work.
A Chelsea station would be a godsend for those of us who live in Chelsea and actually rely on public transport but, alas, it will never happen as the history of the last 150 years and nimbyish opposition have demonstrated
British Rail actually owned the tracks and stations from Wimbledon to Putney until the 1990s. It was their staff in the ticket offices. I think it was around the time of BR privatisation that it was agreed all round that London Underground would be the better owners.
If adding a station at Chelsea is a funding issue, just tell Roman Abramovich that there is a stunning Greek footballer available called Stationus Platformiakis, and the money will be there instantly!
Somehow I had completely missed that Sloane Square had had it's green tiles replaced by white ones. Even more weird is I was actually a commuter on that route when it happened. I must have been asleep. Such a shame to lose the character of the green ones, even if they were only put up in the 80s. They were much more interesting than those white ones.
You hit the mark with "does Chelsea want a station." Big No to that one. FT, 2016: “If a Crossrail station is built here, it will destroy Chelsea as we know it. We are not opposed to Crossrail 2, we just *don’t want a station in Chelsea* said Felicity Kendal, the actor, and one of the celebrity backers of a campaign against the station. I mean, the City of London was a lovely sleepy town not far from Stepney, then WHAM! Liverpool St, Canon St, Blackfriars, Fenchurch St and a gazillion tube stops and looked what happened?
Has Jago done an episode on Southfield's Station? The architecture is quite bizarre looking to my eye, a pyramid with chimneys. Would love to know more. 8:02
@@highpath4776 Wimbledon Park and Southfields were identical originally. The platform buildings are more or less the same, but the street level building at Southfields has been extended since LU took them over from BR in the 1990s.
Will there ever be a Chelsea tube station? While not technically a "tube" station, as you say Crossrail 2 proposals have included King's Road Chelsea. Well-healed locals have been against it: Felicity Kendal lives in Carlisle Square just down the road and is none too keen having all those extra proles about. I've lived in and around Chelsea for 30 years, and it's always been a bit of a desert for tube stops. For commuting, I switched to the riverbus some years ago to save the trek up to Sloane Square.
Strikes me that by the time the need for a route is assessed, analysed, planned, reviewed, feasibility studied, debated, consulted, financed and contracts issued things have moved on… I’ll wager there’s a lot of ‘lines that never were’ to come from Mr Hazard. PS thanks for the map fix, much appreciated.
One was population change, such as the Green Belt restrictions , which reduced some of the Central Line and Northern Heights extensions. Another was the replacement of Steam Hauled services with DMU/ EMU units, particulary at Liverpool Street which gave faster turnround of trains for the line to Chingford for example.
@@highpath4776 The unpredictability of technological advancement and social change has laid many well meaning plans to rest I would guess. The other alternative is do nothing… maybe not.
@@brucewilliams8714 construction of the Melbourne Airport link to start in 2022 with a 9 year development period by which time… Who knows? Do they have crystal balls in Aus? 😉
